Tuesday, November 17, 2009
Housekeeping Slog Somehow Overlooked...
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:43 PM
...the 10-year-old boy in Arkansas who refuses to say to say the Pledge of Allegiance until gays and lesbians can get married.
We also overlooked Meghan McCain's tits.
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4
" I eventually, very solemnly, with a little bit of malice in my voice said: Ma'am, you can go jump off a bridge"
OMG that has to be the most hilariously, adorably, nerdy kid I've ever seen.
OMG that has to be the most hilariously, adorably, nerdy kid I've ever seen.
5
Good on the kid for standing up for his beliefs, naive though he is.
And what the hell does Meghan McCain wear for a bra? A vise?
And what the hell does Meghan McCain wear for a bra? A vise?
6
Cool kid with cool dad.
Meghan pic was just scary. But, then, big boobs have always scared me, even on normally-intelligenced women.
Meghan pic was just scary. But, then, big boobs have always scared me, even on normally-intelligenced women.
8
Thanks for (yeah, finally) putting this up here in the hometown blog.
This is my favorite father-son interview ever. The way they interact together is out of this world. And I love that the boy connected the evils of anti-gay laws, racism and sexism. The CNN reader did a pretty great job, too, his tone a reminder of the clear-eyed, non-pandering editorial stance CNN always used to swear by.
This is my favorite father-son interview ever. The way they interact together is out of this world. And I love that the boy connected the evils of anti-gay laws, racism and sexism. The CNN reader did a pretty great job, too, his tone a reminder of the clear-eyed, non-pandering editorial stance CNN always used to swear by.
9
Fifth grader...indoctrination at work.
Let me guess, mr Jay instructed him to do this. Have the balls to do the disrupting yourselves and stop using children to further agendas.
11
Is it so foreign to you Loveschild that a kid could actually speak his mind on a subject that he actually had a critical thought about?
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6: Big boobs intimidate a lot of guys - they don't know what to do with them. Answer? Anything you want.
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Right, 9. Just because YOU were indoctrinated, and that you're doing the same to your poor children, doesn't mean that this boy is.
15
I watched this yesterday on another blog but only just noticed the the logo on the kids tee-shirt. If I am correct I believe it reads "NERDS 2(w/the squared symbol to the top right of the 2) EVER. That is fantastic.
A very articulate if just a bit awkward kid. I fear for opposing counsel if he goes into litigation when he grows up.
A very articulate if just a bit awkward kid. I fear for opposing counsel if he goes into litigation when he grows up.
16
Loveschild is a cum guzzling slut who enjoys licking the floors of Taboo Video where the video rooms are at.
18
@12. Are scare and intimidate synonyms? I don't think so. But, even if, I married a nice 34(almost)A 40 years ago. We occupy ourselves with other anatomical features. Twice a day usually.
19
#9, That's funny, I live in DC and every anti-abortion rally they have here is mostly high school kids bussed in by the thousands. Does that count as using children to further agendas?
21
"Solemnly, with a little bit of malice in my voice I said ma'am, you can go jump off a bridge." Hilarious. Go justice kid and his attractive bear father!
22
If your thoughts don't exactly match Loveschild's than you've been indoctrinated. Some people are actually that full of themselves.
25
No fifth grader has the mental nor physical capacity to be pondering on adult themes like sexuality, needless to say something like homosexuality. So yes i know this kid has been put up to this (most likely by the man that was sitting next to him). And while that might be fine if his parents want to indoctrinate him into those beliefs what's not okay is for them to encourage him to go on and cause disruption in his school and to the other children, whose parents may well think otherwise and probably have not even discussed sex with their own children. THESE ARE FIFTH GRADERS.
This is, if there ever was one, a prime example of the farce behind the statements made by homosexual activist groups that like to say that they wont teach homosexuality in schools. You better believe they will, and if they can't have adults teach it, then by all means they'll indoctrinate children like this one to discuss these sort of inappropriate subjects to other kids.
Shame on you CNN for this sort of biased interview.
In the end this will be a gift, cause those states that have yet not secure themselves will have to realize that if they don't this is what's coming to visit them and their children.
This is, if there ever was one, a prime example of the farce behind the statements made by homosexual activist groups that like to say that they wont teach homosexuality in schools. You better believe they will, and if they can't have adults teach it, then by all means they'll indoctrinate children like this one to discuss these sort of inappropriate subjects to other kids.
Shame on you CNN for this sort of biased interview.
In the end this will be a gift, cause those states that have yet not secure themselves will have to realize that if they don't this is what's coming to visit them and their children.
26
@9--Now, now. This is just obviously a case of regional myopia. I wouldn't expect LC to be able to nail the type of guy Will's daddy is. He's obviously a Bubba.
Bubbas are in fact the most common sub-type of American white male Southerner. They may have some education, but they're not effete. They make unselfconscious use of "y'all" but use proper English generally. They love their children with a leonine ferocity.
Bubbas drink Bud, like NASCAR and football, watch too much television, and can usually find something more productive to do with most Sunday mornings than dress up and sing hymns badly. Bubbas like to go with the flow, favor peace and stability, tend a little toward the conservative, but can usually be counted on to do the right thing. They are usually politically aware, but rarely politically active.
The last Bubba from Arkansas we got to know is a bit of an exception there. Although, it is not at all uncommon for Bubbas to have scary wives.
The point is, I can tell you LC, that this is not a case of a kid being indoctrinated into a specific political agenda. Instead, this is a kid who's been encouraged to think for himself and speak the truth. And it's a truth that's obvious for all your inability to see it.
Bubbas are in fact the most common sub-type of American white male Southerner. They may have some education, but they're not effete. They make unselfconscious use of "y'all" but use proper English generally. They love their children with a leonine ferocity.
Bubbas drink Bud, like NASCAR and football, watch too much television, and can usually find something more productive to do with most Sunday mornings than dress up and sing hymns badly. Bubbas like to go with the flow, favor peace and stability, tend a little toward the conservative, but can usually be counted on to do the right thing. They are usually politically aware, but rarely politically active.
The last Bubba from Arkansas we got to know is a bit of an exception there. Although, it is not at all uncommon for Bubbas to have scary wives.
The point is, I can tell you LC, that this is not a case of a kid being indoctrinated into a specific political agenda. Instead, this is a kid who's been encouraged to think for himself and speak the truth. And it's a truth that's obvious for all your inability to see it.
27
Nice video. Now, Dan, you just go back to generalizing about everyone who lives in the South, fly-over states, rural American, Bible belt, etc., etc., rather than practicing the same open-mindedness and tolerance that you demand for gays and lesbians.
It's a lot easier that way.
It's a lot easier that way.
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@23 and 24
All you need to know is that her breasts look huge in that photo and her republican fans didn't take it very well.
All you need to know is that her breasts look huge in that photo and her republican fans didn't take it very well.
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@25 Uh, my Barbies were having crazy sex in 2nd grade and I was masturbating by 4th. I guess it was from teaching heterosexuality in schools and in the media (there was a lot of it on Miami Vice).
32
@25--LC you are so full of shit that you squeak going into a turn.
Any fifth-grader is capable of understanding that grown-ups fall in love.
Any fifth-grader is capable of understanding that some grown-ups fall in love with persons of the same gender.
Any fifth-grader is capable of understanding that denying these grown-ups the right to marry each other flies in the face of the Pledge of Allegiance.
These are very simple facts. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge them betrays your own indoctrination. Some very bad people have seriously messed your head, girl.
Any fifth-grader is capable of understanding that grown-ups fall in love.
Any fifth-grader is capable of understanding that some grown-ups fall in love with persons of the same gender.
Any fifth-grader is capable of understanding that denying these grown-ups the right to marry each other flies in the face of the Pledge of Allegiance.
These are very simple facts. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge them betrays your own indoctrination. Some very bad people have seriously messed your head, girl.
33
@25,
So then Loveschild you ignorant cunt, by your standard, no child should EVER think of anything regarding relations. So when in your infinite wisdom is it okay for a kid to ponder a man and a woman being together?
So then Loveschild you ignorant cunt, by your standard, no child should EVER think of anything regarding relations. So when in your infinite wisdom is it okay for a kid to ponder a man and a woman being together?
37
22
If your thoughts don't exactly match Dan's then you're an Asshole and a Bigot. Some people are actually that full of themselves.
If your thoughts don't exactly match Dan's then you're an Asshole and a Bigot. Some people are actually that full of themselves.
38
anonymous at 37,
There is a difference between not agreeing with Dan on something and not agreeing with Dan because you are an ignorant fool who denies the truth to even themselves.
There is a difference between not agreeing with Dan on something and not agreeing with Dan because you are an ignorant fool who denies the truth to even themselves.
39
26 They can teach him the moon is made of cheese for all i care, that's their problem. But they have no right to "encourage" him to go on and disrupt class to make a political statement. That's not the place and it infringes on the civil liberties of the other kids and their parents.
Sorry i don't need a mr Jay having his kid coming to school to talk about homosexuality to my child. And that's why this kid is getting the treatment his getting in his school now. He has his caretaker or dad to thank for that.
We as parents take our children to school in good faith so that they can learn arithmetic, English, reading, writing and all other academic basics, not to teach them about sexual persuasions or about what's moral, that's up to me and their father to teach to them not to any interest group or any outside individual with an agenda.
I don't care what your views on homosexuality are, bottom line is his parents or caretakers are behaving inappropriately and in a inconsiderate manner towards the other children and their parents by "encouraging" this sort of behavior in his school. And if we're going to go down this road then by all means then the diseases and other detriments that are brought about from a homosexual lifestyle need to also be taught.
Sorry i don't need a mr Jay having his kid coming to school to talk about homosexuality to my child. And that's why this kid is getting the treatment his getting in his school now. He has his caretaker or dad to thank for that.
We as parents take our children to school in good faith so that they can learn arithmetic, English, reading, writing and all other academic basics, not to teach them about sexual persuasions or about what's moral, that's up to me and their father to teach to them not to any interest group or any outside individual with an agenda.
I don't care what your views on homosexuality are, bottom line is his parents or caretakers are behaving inappropriately and in a inconsiderate manner towards the other children and their parents by "encouraging" this sort of behavior in his school. And if we're going to go down this road then by all means then the diseases and other detriments that are brought about from a homosexual lifestyle need to also be taught.
40
yay! to The Max @ 32!!
my kids have gotten a pretty thorough (yet age-appropriate) explanation of gay relationships and the fundamental unfairness of the discrimination they face. they've been to the rallies, carried signs and spread the word at school.
you don't need to go into a lot of detail, but kids understand that love is a gift, and that there should not be an arbitrary limitation on it's expression based on what kind of junk you have in your pants.
my kids have gotten a pretty thorough (yet age-appropriate) explanation of gay relationships and the fundamental unfairness of the discrimination they face. they've been to the rallies, carried signs and spread the word at school.
you don't need to go into a lot of detail, but kids understand that love is a gift, and that there should not be an arbitrary limitation on it's expression based on what kind of junk you have in your pants.
41
Once again Loveschild you are an ignorant hypocrite.
So if its the parents job to teach the kids about this stuff (I would hate to see what you think of sex education taught to kids in the 4th grade and above) so therefore you think that its up to Hetero parents to teach about heterosexuality. So therefore, you feel that heterosexuality IS NOT taught in schools.
So where exactly then would Homosexuality be taught if Heterosexuality isn't? Oh thats right, you have some un-educated an ignorant fear that it will be a subject that MUST be taught to children.
So if its the parents job to teach the kids about this stuff (I would hate to see what you think of sex education taught to kids in the 4th grade and above) so therefore you think that its up to Hetero parents to teach about heterosexuality. So therefore, you feel that heterosexuality IS NOT taught in schools.
So where exactly then would Homosexuality be taught if Heterosexuality isn't? Oh thats right, you have some un-educated an ignorant fear that it will be a subject that MUST be taught to children.
42
@39 Kids learn about STDs in middle school, but mostly in high school. Don't worry.
Oh, and it's your right to not stand during the pledge of allegiance. The teacher was denying him his civil rights by demanding he do so.
Oh, and it's your right to not stand during the pledge of allegiance. The teacher was denying him his civil rights by demanding he do so.
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@25 if other kids are calling this kid gay I'm pretty sure they already know about sex and homosexuals.
44
Loveschild, you ignorant twat. 30 years ago when I was in 5th grade we were taught sex ed. All the grand, gory details of hetero lovin'. And we were able to contemplate pretty clearly what it all meant. Didn't keep me from coming out as a total gaywad a few years later, though. So much for indoctrination.
45
Now Loveschild, just because your children were not able to articulate their thoughts, feelings, and ideas as well as this young man of gifted intelligence (I'm refering to his skipping grades), don't insult children who are capable of thinking and speaking intelligently beyond your own personal experience of a fifth grader's intelligence.
Some of us are fortunate to know bright, well spoken children who think and act beyond their years.
Some of us are fortunate to know bright, well spoken children who think and act beyond their years.
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@45:
"Now Loveschild, just because your children were not able to articulate their thoughts, feelings, and ideas as well as this young man of gifted intelligence (I'm refering to his skipping grades), don't insult children who are capable of thinking and speaking intelligently beyond your own personal experience of a fifth grader's intelligence."
Maybe they're afraid to, coming from such a hateful, bigoted background. Loveschild is obviously not being inclusive/informative about sexuality, which is tantamount to child abuse.
"Now Loveschild, just because your children were not able to articulate their thoughts, feelings, and ideas as well as this young man of gifted intelligence (I'm refering to his skipping grades), don't insult children who are capable of thinking and speaking intelligently beyond your own personal experience of a fifth grader's intelligence."
Maybe they're afraid to, coming from such a hateful, bigoted background. Loveschild is obviously not being inclusive/informative about sexuality, which is tantamount to child abuse.
47
Maybe in a few years the kid will realize he's pledging allegiance to "the flag ... and the republic for which it stands" (ie the constitution, which does indeed stand for liberty and justice for all and always has/will) and not the bigoted dimwits currently inhabiting/governing it.
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@43 Kids use the word gay to mean something stupid, they have no real notion of what that means, or better put, what sort of action it implies for one to be deemed as gay.
49
@48,
God you are fucking stupid.
Yes, kids use the word "gay" as stupid. But they use it because idiots like you have indoctrinated them to think that "gay" is stupid, and weak, and wrong.
God you are fucking stupid.
Yes, kids use the word "gay" as stupid. But they use it because idiots like you have indoctrinated them to think that "gay" is stupid, and weak, and wrong.
50
Here, let me put it in terms you can understand.
It would be like me calling you nigger not because of the color of your skin, but because idiots like yourself have indoctrinated me to think that a nigger is a stupid, ignorant fool.
It would be like me calling you nigger not because of the color of your skin, but because idiots like yourself have indoctrinated me to think that a nigger is a stupid, ignorant fool.
51
Country did really well for 150 some years without making kids swear a loyalty oath. It was dimwit rubes in the McCarthy era who made it mandatory to begin with. To me it's contradictory to force people to honor liberty and justice, and forcing them to be patriotic is to treat them more like subjects than citizens.
52
LC: It is just because the 5th graders don't really get sex that a kid like this can understand what gay marriage rights is really about - love, families, partnership, community. The act of sex is just one element. You and your ilk however are clearly obsessed with anal sex between men.
Leaving LC aside, kids this age can be terrible rightous literalists, even when they aren't nerds who intend to grow up to be lawyers. Adults excuses as to why one group should be treated better than another group can really appear lame. And they love catching out the adults.
LC: you really don't know much about kids (or human beings) and their wide variations. Kids are a hoot.
The Max @ 26: I love your Bubba description. As a dad too, I like the part at the end where he nudges his son to say goodbye and thank you. My son at that age was terrible with social nicities. He just couldn't see the point. Oh man, the multitude of nudges I dished out. Now at 14, he's got it down...
Leaving LC aside, kids this age can be terrible rightous literalists, even when they aren't nerds who intend to grow up to be lawyers. Adults excuses as to why one group should be treated better than another group can really appear lame. And they love catching out the adults.
LC: you really don't know much about kids (or human beings) and their wide variations. Kids are a hoot.
The Max @ 26: I love your Bubba description. As a dad too, I like the part at the end where he nudges his son to say goodbye and thank you. My son at that age was terrible with social nicities. He just couldn't see the point. Oh man, the multitude of nudges I dished out. Now at 14, he's got it down...
53
@42 BS. I don't know what school you're talking about but that's not the case in most normal schools in this nation. Kids don't go on learning anything about sexaully transmitted diseases, sodomy or any other homosexual acts or diseases at his age. And this has nothing to do with him not standing up during the pledge of allegiance but rather him doing so and then continually spewing (in class and in front of his classmates) what his caretakers have told him to repeat concerning homosexuality.
I wan't to know what would be the reaction here if it was the other way instead? Most here would be decrying the parents as "Christian bigots" or accusing them of trying to install a theocracy or as spewing "homophobic" sentiments thru the kid, but when its the other way around its fine to your ilk. I just thank God that's not how the majority of parents operate in the real world.
I wan't to know what would be the reaction here if it was the other way instead? Most here would be decrying the parents as "Christian bigots" or accusing them of trying to install a theocracy or as spewing "homophobic" sentiments thru the kid, but when its the other way around its fine to your ilk. I just thank God that's not how the majority of parents operate in the real world.
54
53
BULLSHIT
over 20 years ago in 5th GRADE I was taught about sexually transmitted diseases in school.
pull your head out of your ass you ignorant cunt.
BULLSHIT
over 20 years ago in 5th GRADE I was taught about sexually transmitted diseases in school.
pull your head out of your ass you ignorant cunt.
57
Again with the presumptions, Loveschild.
When I was in elementary school we knew what the meaning of the words: gay, fag, lesbian. We knew that people have different orientations and that the words were used to be derogatory. Today's fifth graders are no less intelligent, some know what the words actually mean, and others understand that being a bully gives them a sense of self importance. They understand name calling and they choose the words that have the greatest potential impact.
Stop with the assumptions. Your world view is small and limited. Your experience of fifth graders is limited to your small world view.
Your continually trying to equate innocents with ignorance. Ignorance does not protect innocents, but it does create stupidity.
When I was in elementary school we knew what the meaning of the words: gay, fag, lesbian. We knew that people have different orientations and that the words were used to be derogatory. Today's fifth graders are no less intelligent, some know what the words actually mean, and others understand that being a bully gives them a sense of self importance. They understand name calling and they choose the words that have the greatest potential impact.
Stop with the assumptions. Your world view is small and limited. Your experience of fifth graders is limited to your small world view.
Your continually trying to equate innocents with ignorance. Ignorance does not protect innocents, but it does create stupidity.
58
I don't know why everyone pays attention to loveschild. Just ignore her/him/it . He/she/it thrives on the attention and pushing people's buttons.
It's like Sarah Palin. If we just ignored her, she'd go away.
It's like Sarah Palin. If we just ignored her, she'd go away.
59
@53 Uh, conservative West Michigan public school taught us about puberty and sex and peer pressure in 5th grade, drugs and biology in 7th, and contraception, STDs, and everything else in high school health class.
Pretty standard stuff.
Pretty standard stuff.
60
LC@53
Actually, it is religion that needs to be indoctrinated because it makes no sense and can't be observed. And the hate has to be indoctrinated.
More and more kids now are exposed to actual gay people, and gay couples, and gay parents, and gay family members, living actual gay lives, looking absolutely sane and normal, and raising their kids in a way that other kids can see is good parenting, and participating in the community in wonderful ways the add to the lives of those around them. And even those without direct experience have exmples they can see of real people. Kids who have this experience don't need to be indoctrinated.
Actually, it is religion that needs to be indoctrinated because it makes no sense and can't be observed. And the hate has to be indoctrinated.
More and more kids now are exposed to actual gay people, and gay couples, and gay parents, and gay family members, living actual gay lives, looking absolutely sane and normal, and raising their kids in a way that other kids can see is good parenting, and participating in the community in wonderful ways the add to the lives of those around them. And even those without direct experience have exmples they can see of real people. Kids who have this experience don't need to be indoctrinated.
61
@ 53 -
I can honestly say that if a Christian child refused to say the pledge of allegiance because he or she thought (or was taught by their parents) that it was truly hypocritical to do so, I would have no problem with it. I might disagree, but I wouldn't object. I always thought a compelled pledge was a little scary and it really had not place in a classroom.
As you say, I doubt this boy been taught detailed sex ed or about stds. However, most kids his age are acutely aware of fairness and are often taught about a variety of historical injustices against various groups of people throughout history. Now I know you don't see the issue that way, but it's not out of the question that he thinks gay people are treated unfairly. Or perhaps he just wants to be a contrarian.
He will quickly learn more lessons about unfairness soon. A lot of people are going to go out of their way to hurt this boy for his position - teachers, classmates, adults.
I can honestly say that if a Christian child refused to say the pledge of allegiance because he or she thought (or was taught by their parents) that it was truly hypocritical to do so, I would have no problem with it. I might disagree, but I wouldn't object. I always thought a compelled pledge was a little scary and it really had not place in a classroom.
As you say, I doubt this boy been taught detailed sex ed or about stds. However, most kids his age are acutely aware of fairness and are often taught about a variety of historical injustices against various groups of people throughout history. Now I know you don't see the issue that way, but it's not out of the question that he thinks gay people are treated unfairly. Or perhaps he just wants to be a contrarian.
He will quickly learn more lessons about unfairness soon. A lot of people are going to go out of their way to hurt this boy for his position - teachers, classmates, adults.
62
I love this kid.
And I love the way he terrifies Loveschild so deeply that she has to pretend he's just an automaton, not a bright young person with a conscience.
And I love the way he terrifies Loveschild so deeply that she has to pretend he's just an automaton, not a bright young person with a conscience.
63
I dunno about you guys, but when I was in fifth grade I didn't know what being "gay" was. Mostly because I had no idea that it was any different from "normal" relationships.
Nobody I knew really "learned" about being gay and whether or not it was wrong until middle school. I think the first time I found out was when I heard on the radio that a kid had been beaten and killed for being gay and had no idea what it meant, so I asked my dad. I think children really are taught their beliefs - but about homosexuality being wrong, not necessarily about trumpeting political views in the classroom.
Good on this kid for thinking things through and coming to his own logical conclusion. I wanna pinch his nerdy little cheeks, d'aww.
Nobody I knew really "learned" about being gay and whether or not it was wrong until middle school. I think the first time I found out was when I heard on the radio that a kid had been beaten and killed for being gay and had no idea what it meant, so I asked my dad. I think children really are taught their beliefs - but about homosexuality being wrong, not necessarily about trumpeting political views in the classroom.
Good on this kid for thinking things through and coming to his own logical conclusion. I wanna pinch his nerdy little cheeks, d'aww.
64
@61 I do recall Jehovas Witness kids in my class not reciting the pledge due to religious grounds and no one thought anything of it.
Bravo to this kid actually having a brain and realizing what he is supposedly pledging to (and how not fair our country really is with bigots pulling the strings) and not just reciting the words without thinking about them like most kids probably do.
Bravo to this kid actually having a brain and realizing what he is supposedly pledging to (and how not fair our country really is with bigots pulling the strings) and not just reciting the words without thinking about them like most kids probably do.
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@50 Careful there Akbar, your fifteenth-nineteenth century heritage is showing.
Do you actually have any kids of your own? I guess not cuz if you did you would know that is a frequently used word by them and it doesn't have the negative connotations that you're trying to give it now. It has just one basic meaning to them. There's a clear epithet for those of homosexual persuasions and it's not that. On the other hand, the one that you so crassly typed there has a long history of being used to kill, oppress and enslave a racial group and considering the pivotal part some ancestors of yours might've played in that (no matter how unaware or distant from it you claim to be) you should know better than most ignoramuses here.
Do you actually have any kids of your own? I guess not cuz if you did you would know that is a frequently used word by them and it doesn't have the negative connotations that you're trying to give it now. It has just one basic meaning to them. There's a clear epithet for those of homosexual persuasions and it's not that. On the other hand, the one that you so crassly typed there has a long history of being used to kill, oppress and enslave a racial group and considering the pivotal part some ancestors of yours might've played in that (no matter how unaware or distant from it you claim to be) you should know better than most ignoramuses here.
66
sigh. once again Loveschild, you dare to accuse me of crimes that people committed HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO. When does it fucking end with you?
And I wouldn't say I crassly typed it. I was trying to appeal to your human nature (of which I should realize you have none since you want gay people to be treated like second class citizens.)
So what is this "clear epithet" for the homosexual persuasion? Please educate us since you clearly know better than anyone.
And I wouldn't say I crassly typed it. I was trying to appeal to your human nature (of which I should realize you have none since you want gay people to be treated like second class citizens.)
So what is this "clear epithet" for the homosexual persuasion? Please educate us since you clearly know better than anyone.
67
What a kid! I'm in love! I have to watch it again so I can quote his most quotable lines for the rest of the day.
68
Oh and for the record on my family history.
As far back as recorded history goes my family lived in the Azores. In the late 1700's a great-grandfather was shanghaied onto a whaling vessel bound for the pacific. When his ship was off of Montery, he jumped ship and headed south. Settled into the central coast of California (where my family still lives), married a local Chumash woman and helped found a (still to this day) thriving Portuguese-American community. So pray tell, how exactly did I have anything to do with what you claim?
As far back as recorded history goes my family lived in the Azores. In the late 1700's a great-grandfather was shanghaied onto a whaling vessel bound for the pacific. When his ship was off of Montery, he jumped ship and headed south. Settled into the central coast of California (where my family still lives), married a local Chumash woman and helped found a (still to this day) thriving Portuguese-American community. So pray tell, how exactly did I have anything to do with what you claim?
69
Hey Loveschild,
Oregon state law requires comprehensive sex education. So, your wrong.
http://www.new3rs.info/index.php?p=diff_…
http://www.new3rs.info/index.php?p=diff_…
And, just because you have children doesn't make you an authority on the intelligence or vernacular of children. It only makes you an authority on your own children's intelligence and vernacular. Get a flippin' clue your opinions are not facts. Your experiences are not empirical evidence.
Oregon state law requires comprehensive sex education. So, your wrong.
http://www.new3rs.info/index.php?p=diff_…
http://www.new3rs.info/index.php?p=diff_…
And, just because you have children doesn't make you an authority on the intelligence or vernacular of children. It only makes you an authority on your own children's intelligence and vernacular. Get a flippin' clue your opinions are not facts. Your experiences are not empirical evidence.
70
I haven't read all the comments here, but I would like to point out that school aged Jehovah's Witnesses are not required to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in school because doing so infringes on their religious beliefs.
I knew a few JH kids when I was in school and, if I recall correctly, they had to wait in the principal's office while the rest of us students did the pledge thing at the beginning of the school day. But I grew up in an area dominated by Mormons, so this may be unique to that area.
I knew a few JH kids when I was in school and, if I recall correctly, they had to wait in the principal's office while the rest of us students did the pledge thing at the beginning of the school day. But I grew up in an area dominated by Mormons, so this may be unique to that area.
72
Heh. From the sound of that "Go jump off a bridge" line, I'm willing to bet money that the kid's quoting his teacher relaying to the principal (or his father, or both) what he said.
73
I stopped saying the pledge of allegiance in 5th grade because I did not want to pledge anything to a piece of cloth, and the 'under God' phrase bugged me. I also felt that I didn't know enough about the world to make a pledge to much of anything at that age. Oh, yeah, and that "indivisible" thing seemed like wishful thinking. When I found out I had a legal right to say no (I asked my parents), I stopped.
I have also taught students this age, and they are capable of seeing through so many things - and it's an age in which apparent hypocrisy is a major target. To assume that children are incapable of logical thought is to infantilize them and not allow them to actualize their full potential.
I have also taught students this age, and they are capable of seeing through so many things - and it's an age in which apparent hypocrisy is a major target. To assume that children are incapable of logical thought is to infantilize them and not allow them to actualize their full potential.
75
I'll admit that I had no idea what "gay" or "lesbian" meant when I was in 5th grade. Hell, I didn't know in 8th grade, nor did I know anything at all about sex, except for the female stuff my mom had to tell me before I got my first period.
But I was an incredibly sheltered kid. I went to Catholic school, my parents were on the conservative side when it came to discussing stuff like that (and they figured if they didn't talk about it, it wasn't real), and I was incredibly introverted. I know my classmates knew about that stuff, because I got teased mercilessly because I didn't.
Now, when I taught in Catholic school, I promise you that they knew about sex. And we taught all about sex in school in 6th grade (granted, it didn't really acknowledge much beyond penis-vagina intercourse, but it didn acknowledge that sex exists). I promise you, it was nothing new to any of those kids.
Good on this kid for exercising his right to free speech for something he believes in. And yes, I would be saying that if he were sitting down for religious reasons, too.
(Don't Jehovah's Witnesses object to saying the pledge?)
But I was an incredibly sheltered kid. I went to Catholic school, my parents were on the conservative side when it came to discussing stuff like that (and they figured if they didn't talk about it, it wasn't real), and I was incredibly introverted. I know my classmates knew about that stuff, because I got teased mercilessly because I didn't.
Now, when I taught in Catholic school, I promise you that they knew about sex. And we taught all about sex in school in 6th grade (granted, it didn't really acknowledge much beyond penis-vagina intercourse, but it didn acknowledge that sex exists). I promise you, it was nothing new to any of those kids.
Good on this kid for exercising his right to free speech for something he believes in. And yes, I would be saying that if he were sitting down for religious reasons, too.
(Don't Jehovah's Witnesses object to saying the pledge?)
77
Of course, people like Loveschild have such filthy minds, they muddy reasonably clear waters by bringing sex into everything.
Up until fifth grade, all children need to know about sex is that it's something grown-ups do with each other.
But, leaving sex out of it completely, children need to start learning about families as soon as they start school.
Children have a right to know and we have an obligation to teach them the basic facts: Half or a little bit more of their friends have a mommy and a daddy, but sometimes mommies and daddies split up for grown up reasons. Some kids have a single parent. Some kids have two mommies. Some kids have two daddies. Sex doesn't enter into it.
In fifth grade, children start to have a right to know, starting in general and nonspecific terms, about the basic mechanics of human reproduction. And we have an obligation to teach them.
By 7th grade, when about 50% of kids are physically capable of reproduction, they need to be well-equipped with the basic facts of penis, vagina, erection, ejaculation, insemination, menstruation, pregnancy, STDs, and birth control.
Here in the south, we've badly failed in that obligation, and hence we have higher rates of teen pregnancy and STD infection.
Up until fifth grade, all children need to know about sex is that it's something grown-ups do with each other.
But, leaving sex out of it completely, children need to start learning about families as soon as they start school.
Children have a right to know and we have an obligation to teach them the basic facts: Half or a little bit more of their friends have a mommy and a daddy, but sometimes mommies and daddies split up for grown up reasons. Some kids have a single parent. Some kids have two mommies. Some kids have two daddies. Sex doesn't enter into it.
In fifth grade, children start to have a right to know, starting in general and nonspecific terms, about the basic mechanics of human reproduction. And we have an obligation to teach them.
By 7th grade, when about 50% of kids are physically capable of reproduction, they need to be well-equipped with the basic facts of penis, vagina, erection, ejaculation, insemination, menstruation, pregnancy, STDs, and birth control.
Here in the south, we've badly failed in that obligation, and hence we have higher rates of teen pregnancy and STD infection.
78
@62 FTW!
@Loveschild: YOU PEOPLE ARE LOSING! THAT'S WHY YOU ARE SO AFRAID OF THIS KID! Even your own kids probably have no problem with gay people, they're just humoring you because you're the crazy old person...
@Loveschild: YOU PEOPLE ARE LOSING! THAT'S WHY YOU ARE SO AFRAID OF THIS KID! Even your own kids probably have no problem with gay people, they're just humoring you because you're the crazy old person...
79
LC doesn't have a problem with kids learning about sex, she only has a problem with them learning about HOMOSEXUAL sex.
I can read "Our Bodes Ourselves" in 3rd grade or have my Barbies fucking, but that not inappropriate heterosexual indoctrination, that's just normal people doing normal people things. As soon as all of those exact same things are between two people of the SAME SEX, then it's hurting the kiddies.
I can read "Our Bodes Ourselves" in 3rd grade or have my Barbies fucking, but that not inappropriate heterosexual indoctrination, that's just normal people doing normal people things. As soon as all of those exact same things are between two people of the SAME SEX, then it's hurting the kiddies.
80
I had friends in 6th grade who were having sex, and that was almost 30 years ago...what kind of insulated reality must one live in to think 5th graders don't know what sex is? Anyone who believes that obviously isn't around many children. My sister (5 years older than me) had a friend get pregnant in 6th grade (12 years old). I knew what sex was when I was 10, thanks to parents who (though quite conservative) wanted to make sure I was armed with facts.
Also, almost every conservative Christian I know has absolutely no problem with their child(ren) making a "decision for Christ" (pick your denomination's favored nomenclature) at the youngest possible age. (I was 7, myself.) If you believe those children are old enough to make that nuanced decision, why would you believe an even older child can't decide for himself/herself what to believe about social justice issues?
Also, almost every conservative Christian I know has absolutely no problem with their child(ren) making a "decision for Christ" (pick your denomination's favored nomenclature) at the youngest possible age. (I was 7, myself.) If you believe those children are old enough to make that nuanced decision, why would you believe an even older child can't decide for himself/herself what to believe about social justice issues?
81
@68 So your seafaring family started being portuguese only in the 1700's, they didn't inhabit the portuguese mainland before that? Okay, if that makes you feel better about your history.
ooh...and thanks for calling me an N to appeal to my human nature (of course), because not wanting a kid to be repeating things in school taught to him by his caretakers at home that go against the values that i teach my kids at my home makes me somehow not human in your eyes. You, who want to indoctrinate children that are not yours about something that has nothing to do with school, you who use the type of words that you use, yours is the true human nature? Get out to real world and see what's nature Akbar.
p.s. Those type of 'appeals' of yours must be costing you lots of visits to the dentist don't they? or maybe you don't have anyone of my race near you to throw them at.
ooh...and thanks for calling me an N to appeal to my human nature (of course), because not wanting a kid to be repeating things in school taught to him by his caretakers at home that go against the values that i teach my kids at my home makes me somehow not human in your eyes. You, who want to indoctrinate children that are not yours about something that has nothing to do with school, you who use the type of words that you use, yours is the true human nature? Get out to real world and see what's nature Akbar.
p.s. Those type of 'appeals' of yours must be costing you lots of visits to the dentist don't they? or maybe you don't have anyone of my race near you to throw them at.
82
Fuck off LC.
Now that that's out of the way, onto Meg's milkers. She's going have bruising she's pushing those puppies up so much. There's some volume there to be sure, but they're so contorted out of shape it's hard to judge them fairly. I think she should post more photos so that we can assess them accurately. I'm aware that her republican supporters might get upset, so instead of "twitting" the titties, she could just post some pics to Slog. Maybe Charles can arrange?
Now that that's out of the way, onto Meg's milkers. She's going have bruising she's pushing those puppies up so much. There's some volume there to be sure, but they're so contorted out of shape it's hard to judge them fairly. I think she should post more photos so that we can assess them accurately. I'm aware that her republican supporters might get upset, so instead of "twitting" the titties, she could just post some pics to Slog. Maybe Charles can arrange?
83
Wow, you continue to not even have basic comprehension skills Loveschild.
No where in my post did I actually call you specifically a nigger. I was merely equating its usage to what you conceive of when a kid uses the word "gay" as a derogatory term.
And going back to my heritage, again I ask when does it all end? How far back am I supposed to go to apologize for actions done to people in history? How long are you going to hide behind that and not step out onto your own and not let history shape your life?
So what if this kid spouts the values he is raised with. I don't see you holding up your ignorant children as examples of holding back the ignorant and racist filth you teach them.
Children learning equality for all I would consider a very important lesson to be learned in school. Kids aren't going to get obviously from the crappy parenting you are offering.
No where in my post did I actually call you specifically a nigger. I was merely equating its usage to what you conceive of when a kid uses the word "gay" as a derogatory term.
And going back to my heritage, again I ask when does it all end? How far back am I supposed to go to apologize for actions done to people in history? How long are you going to hide behind that and not step out onto your own and not let history shape your life?
So what if this kid spouts the values he is raised with. I don't see you holding up your ignorant children as examples of holding back the ignorant and racist filth you teach them.
Children learning equality for all I would consider a very important lesson to be learned in school. Kids aren't going to get obviously from the crappy parenting you are offering.
85
I love how LC is being prejudiced against Akbar in an attempt to derail from her own prejudice by calling Akbar prejudiced.
86
"p.s. Those type of 'appeals' of yours must be costing you lots of visits to the dentist don't they? or maybe you don't have anyone of my race near you to throw them at."
I would say the same thing to the face of any person no matter the color of their skin (feel free to insert what ever derogatory racist term you desire) as an example to compare it to being called "gay" in a derogatory term.
I would love to say it directly to your face but you seem to be too chicken shit to ever actually show your face. That or you don't actually exist as you claim to.
I would say the same thing to the face of any person no matter the color of their skin (feel free to insert what ever derogatory racist term you desire) as an example to compare it to being called "gay" in a derogatory term.
I would love to say it directly to your face but you seem to be too chicken shit to ever actually show your face. That or you don't actually exist as you claim to.
87
Great kid. I didn't get any sex ed until 7th grade. That'd be around 1978. My freshman year in Highschool we were taught how to put on a condom using a cucumber. I spent the next 6 months thinking I must have the smallest penis in the school.
89
Kids actually have very strong feelings of right and wrong. A lifelong atheist, I silently dropped "under God" from the pledge in school, not wishing to lie. This kid just has a broader sense of justice more way nerve than I ever had at his age.
92
I think that Loveschild thinks like I used to think - that "gay" can be taught and rubbed off on people if they're weak-minded - and who could be more weak-minded and easily influenced than young children?
While that idea has a kernel of merit, the truth of it is, even if kids do experiment, they will eventually come to a realization of what their sexuality really is - and if they're educated on all aspects of what all sex really is, there's less chance that they'll make stupid mistakes trying something because they weren't told or taught.
At 16, the idea of anal sex grossed me the fuck out, but at 34, I find myself open to the idea of trying it with someone who is as honest and tender-hearted as me. That's what growing up does for you.
While that idea has a kernel of merit, the truth of it is, even if kids do experiment, they will eventually come to a realization of what their sexuality really is - and if they're educated on all aspects of what all sex really is, there's less chance that they'll make stupid mistakes trying something because they weren't told or taught.
At 16, the idea of anal sex grossed me the fuck out, but at 34, I find myself open to the idea of trying it with someone who is as honest and tender-hearted as me. That's what growing up does for you.
93
@83 There's no equating between the two, had i used the word "fag" as Savage himself uses to label himself and others like him ("faggots") then i would agree with you. But the word gay is one that homosexuals themselves use and is not considered an epithet by them, likewise the meaning that kids give to it cannot be even remotely compared to the N word.
I have every God given right as a parent to be secured in knowing that upon me dropping my kids at school they won't be taught ideologies that are opposite to the morals I teach them at home. Teachers are there for teaching ACADEMIC SUBJECTS not their worldview and other parents who want to teach their kids that homosexuality is 'cool' can do so in their homes not in school as has been done thru this kid.
But again, if people like you want to do otherwise, then I'm gonna welcome it so long as its a case of what's good for the goose is also good for the gander and the other side the one the i believe as most americans do is truth is allowed to also be taught without your prissy complaints that it is somehow "theology" or "bigotry" to do so.
I have every God given right as a parent to be secured in knowing that upon me dropping my kids at school they won't be taught ideologies that are opposite to the morals I teach them at home. Teachers are there for teaching ACADEMIC SUBJECTS not their worldview and other parents who want to teach their kids that homosexuality is 'cool' can do so in their homes not in school as has been done thru this kid.
But again, if people like you want to do otherwise, then I'm gonna welcome it so long as its a case of what's good for the goose is also good for the gander and the other side the one the i believe as most americans do is truth is allowed to also be taught without your prissy complaints that it is somehow "theology" or "bigotry" to do so.
94
@92 Brother, i have no problem with the above parent or caretaker teaching his kid what he wants, but likewise i don't want these people teaching my kids things that i don't approve of behind my back. They have no right to abuse the trust that i place as many other parents do on the schools to which we bring our children. The morals that i want to inculcate my children with is something that's up to me and their father not them. You know if the shoe was on the other foot these same people would be screaming bloody murder if someone with a Christian or a traditional family oriented point of view had done the same.
96
Um. So. I know I'm not supposed to engage with the troll, but...
@93, I cannot count how many times I have heard the bleeped-out N-word, sung (or rapped, or whatever) by people such as Snoop and Kanye, directed at other black people. I would never say it myself because, not only am I so white that I'm practically clear, I personally find the word offensive.
It's all about context, is what I'm saying. And using "gay" as a synonym to mean stupid, bad, hateful, etc. is hurtful and offensive, just as it is to use the N-word in a derogatory way.
Also, you must have been the dumbest kid alive if you think 10-year-olds don't know anything about sex, civil rights, and the application of law. Also, ALL of those are academic subjects.
So suck it.
Also, Meghan McCain isn't hideous, but just looking at that picture makes my boobs hurt.
@93, I cannot count how many times I have heard the bleeped-out N-word, sung (or rapped, or whatever) by people such as Snoop and Kanye, directed at other black people. I would never say it myself because, not only am I so white that I'm practically clear, I personally find the word offensive.
It's all about context, is what I'm saying. And using "gay" as a synonym to mean stupid, bad, hateful, etc. is hurtful and offensive, just as it is to use the N-word in a derogatory way.
Also, you must have been the dumbest kid alive if you think 10-year-olds don't know anything about sex, civil rights, and the application of law. Also, ALL of those are academic subjects.
So suck it.
Also, Meghan McCain isn't hideous, but just looking at that picture makes my boobs hurt.
97
@93 - "I have every God given right as a parent to be secured in knowing that upon me dropping my kids at school they won't be taught ideologies that are opposite to the morals I teach them at home. Teachers are there for teaching ACADEMIC SUBJECTS not their worldview and other parents who want to teach their kids that homosexuality is 'cool' can do so in their homes not in school as has been done thru this kid."
The only way you can ensure all that is homeschooling. Teachers are human beings, and even if the consciously make an effort to be completely objective, their worldview is going to creep in to how they teach, and the worldviews of the children - however they are developed - are going to be shared in the classroom, cafeteria, hallways, etc.
You have a very narrow and distorted view of the world. That makes me sad.
The only way you can ensure all that is homeschooling. Teachers are human beings, and even if the consciously make an effort to be completely objective, their worldview is going to creep in to how they teach, and the worldviews of the children - however they are developed - are going to be shared in the classroom, cafeteria, hallways, etc.
You have a very narrow and distorted view of the world. That makes me sad.
98
@93
No you don't. First of all, God didn't give you any rights - the US Constitution does. Second - what if your ideology is nazism and white power? Do you have a right as a parent to "be secured" (whatever that means) in knowing that the schools won't teach something opposite to that ideology?
Of course you don't. Don't be a ninny. You have a right to homeschool your kids. Otherwise they should be tought the appropriate lessons about civil rights.
I have every God given right as a parent to be secured in knowing that upon me dropping my kids at school they won't be taught ideologies that are opposite to the morals I teach them at home.
No you don't. First of all, God didn't give you any rights - the US Constitution does. Second - what if your ideology is nazism and white power? Do you have a right as a parent to "be secured" (whatever that means) in knowing that the schools won't teach something opposite to that ideology?
Of course you don't. Don't be a ninny. You have a right to homeschool your kids. Otherwise they should be tought the appropriate lessons about civil rights.
99
So, LC, what you're saying is that, by virtue of being Portuguese, Fazil is a slaver? That's... racist.
And if you're going to blame one European country for American slavery, it would have to be the Dutch, as they were the first to import African slaves to the Americas. Of course, Africa already had Africans enslaving each other, and Europe had a long history of enslaving other Europeans (the word "slave" after all, comes from "slav," as in "Slavic" countries like Poland, where many people were taken as slaves).
Back on topic, the kid is old enough to understand the basic concept of gay and of marriage, of discrimination, equality under the law, and, of course, of the freedom of (and from) religion. The kid can understand this on the same level that he can understand Loving vs. Virginia. (That would be the SCOTUS case regarding interracial marriage brought on by an aptly named married couple who just so happened to be a black woman, Mildred, and her white husband, Richard.)
The case basically came down to two things: equal protection under the law (self explanatory), and religious freedom. See, marriage is a religious rite (though it is also other things), so forbidding it in some cases and permitting it in others based on some people's arbitrary religious opinion is, basically, a bullshit imposition against free religious expression.
Is 5th grade too young to understand equal protection under the law and free religious expression? If so, where do you suggest we ship them until they're old enough? Iran?
And if you're going to blame one European country for American slavery, it would have to be the Dutch, as they were the first to import African slaves to the Americas. Of course, Africa already had Africans enslaving each other, and Europe had a long history of enslaving other Europeans (the word "slave" after all, comes from "slav," as in "Slavic" countries like Poland, where many people were taken as slaves).
Back on topic, the kid is old enough to understand the basic concept of gay and of marriage, of discrimination, equality under the law, and, of course, of the freedom of (and from) religion. The kid can understand this on the same level that he can understand Loving vs. Virginia. (That would be the SCOTUS case regarding interracial marriage brought on by an aptly named married couple who just so happened to be a black woman, Mildred, and her white husband, Richard.)
The case basically came down to two things: equal protection under the law (self explanatory), and religious freedom. See, marriage is a religious rite (though it is also other things), so forbidding it in some cases and permitting it in others based on some people's arbitrary religious opinion is, basically, a bullshit imposition against free religious expression.
Is 5th grade too young to understand equal protection under the law and free religious expression? If so, where do you suggest we ship them until they're old enough? Iran?
100
I'm pretty sure lovechild is obese, drinks a twelve pack of diet pepsi a day, and wouldn't ever think to wash her own nasty cunt because GOD might perceive that as masterbation. She's dead. A dead cunt.
Thanks for posting Dan.
I love this kid.
Thanks for posting Dan.
I love this kid.
101
I knew Loveschild would spin this somehow. One boy chooses to sit out during the Pledge of Allegiance. How is that a violation of your and your children's civil liberties?
That is one brave, bright, rational, and articulate child, and I applaud his actions. It cannot be easy, especially at his age and in a state like Arkansas, to do what he does. Bravo.
That is one brave, bright, rational, and articulate child, and I applaud his actions. It cannot be easy, especially at his age and in a state like Arkansas, to do what he does. Bravo.
102
Loveschild, I don't know how old your children are, or if they've reached the 5th grade yet, but it seems like you may not personally remember what it's like to be a fifth grader.
When I was in 5th grade, we were taught sex ed. This was a public school in a conservative, rural town, and it was 30 years ago, so it's not like it was some weird hippy school. We definitely knew what sex was. We knew what homosexuality was, and I knew that I was gay. And yeah, some of us were precotiously smart. I wrote a poem when I was in the 4th grade that was published by the Saturday Evening Post. I started writing my first novel when I was in the fifth grade, and though I didn't finish it, I did complete almost 75 pages before giving it up.
Did you watch the interview? It sounds like the Dad didn't even know his son was refusing to take the pledge until the fourth day when he was called into the principal's office for sassing his teacher. And at first he was annoyed with his son and planned to punish him when they got home -- as he said, he thought "He's [the son] is dead." But then his son explained his reasoning and the Dad had to agree that this was no ordinary juvinile deliquency.
When I was in school, starting in kindergarten, there were kids who didn't say the pledge because they were Jehovah's Witnesses and their religion forbade it. They were in kindergarten, then first grade, then all the way through school. You don't think that was some sort of indoctrination?
When I was in 5th grade, we were taught sex ed. This was a public school in a conservative, rural town, and it was 30 years ago, so it's not like it was some weird hippy school. We definitely knew what sex was. We knew what homosexuality was, and I knew that I was gay. And yeah, some of us were precotiously smart. I wrote a poem when I was in the 4th grade that was published by the Saturday Evening Post. I started writing my first novel when I was in the fifth grade, and though I didn't finish it, I did complete almost 75 pages before giving it up.
Did you watch the interview? It sounds like the Dad didn't even know his son was refusing to take the pledge until the fourth day when he was called into the principal's office for sassing his teacher. And at first he was annoyed with his son and planned to punish him when they got home -- as he said, he thought "He's [the son] is dead." But then his son explained his reasoning and the Dad had to agree that this was no ordinary juvinile deliquency.
When I was in school, starting in kindergarten, there were kids who didn't say the pledge because they were Jehovah's Witnesses and their religion forbade it. They were in kindergarten, then first grade, then all the way through school. You don't think that was some sort of indoctrination?
104
@93
Nope. If your "morals" contradict the facts of reality, you can't expect that one bit. Thus we need to teach evolution and comprehensive sex ed. We should leave out pledges of national allegiance, especially those that include references to a deity.
@98- The Constitution does not grant rights, it recognizes them. Rights are inherent. "God given" is a way in which theistic people express the idea of "inherent," and it doesn't bother me much. They do tend to find it easier to take away people's rights, because they just decide God told them it was OK to torture that kind of person. God is a wonderful excuse for hate.
I have every God given right as a parent to be secured in knowing that upon me dropping my kids at school they won't be taught ideologies that are opposite to the morals I teach them at home.
Nope. If your "morals" contradict the facts of reality, you can't expect that one bit. Thus we need to teach evolution and comprehensive sex ed. We should leave out pledges of national allegiance, especially those that include references to a deity.
@98- The Constitution does not grant rights, it recognizes them. Rights are inherent. "God given" is a way in which theistic people express the idea of "inherent," and it doesn't bother me much. They do tend to find it easier to take away people's rights, because they just decide God told them it was OK to torture that kind of person. God is a wonderful excuse for hate.
105
@103- It's hard to say anything on that topic that hasn't been said better by a wiser man: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc58nCJCz…
106
I was raised a Jehovah's Witness. (Quit at age 15, before you ask, and am extremely glad about it.)
JW's are forbidden from reciting the pledge of allegiance because it infers loyalty to someone else other than God, and they resolutely seperate themselves from all earthly organizations, particularly governments. For the same reason they don't join the military, and are highly discouraged from voting.
So I never recited the pledge of allegiance when I was in school. I didn't receive a lot of grief over it, probably because I was extremely debonair as a second grader. I wasn't forced to leave the room or anything.
I still don't pledge allegiance to the flag because, well, it's just a flag. I'd rather pledge my allegiance to people, and usually only after we've met and had some meaningful conversations, possibly drinks.
That Arkansas kid and his dad are way, way all right with me.
JW's are forbidden from reciting the pledge of allegiance because it infers loyalty to someone else other than God, and they resolutely seperate themselves from all earthly organizations, particularly governments. For the same reason they don't join the military, and are highly discouraged from voting.
So I never recited the pledge of allegiance when I was in school. I didn't receive a lot of grief over it, probably because I was extremely debonair as a second grader. I wasn't forced to leave the room or anything.
I still don't pledge allegiance to the flag because, well, it's just a flag. I'd rather pledge my allegiance to people, and usually only after we've met and had some meaningful conversations, possibly drinks.
That Arkansas kid and his dad are way, way all right with me.
107
About 40 years ago my little brother, who was nine or ten years old, asked me what a monk was. I said, it's like a male nun. He thought about it for a moment, then asked,"Do you mean a monk is gay?"
If a kid that age knew, 40 years ago, what gay means, kids know now.
If a kid that age knew, 40 years ago, what gay means, kids know now.
108
I'm surprised no one pointed out the obvious -
It's not that the child has been indoctrinated into the homosexual lifestyle Loveschild, or that he must have been schooled on the ins and outs of homosexuality in class,
Its just that kids have a SUPER-FINE-TUNED sense of what is fair. Anyone who has kids knows this.
It's not that the child has been indoctrinated into the homosexual lifestyle Loveschild, or that he must have been schooled on the ins and outs of homosexuality in class,
Its just that kids have a SUPER-FINE-TUNED sense of what is fair. Anyone who has kids knows this.
110
I'm getting a kick of LC going on about people keeping their own beliefs at home, and not preventing the teachers from teaching the curriculum. When I was a kid, being forced to go to a fundie church (Christian and Missionary Alliance. It was a nightmare.), we kids were always being "encouraged" to bring our Bibles to school, and to interrupt every goddamned lesson from history to literature to (of course) science with verses from the Bible. The staff couldn't complain about our interruptions, because our parents would make a big Christian stink if we weren't allowed to air our beliefs at whatever length we chose. We could go home and brag about having totally disrupted a class and made it impossible for the teacher to do her job, and our parents would relay the story on to the minister. If you were sufficiently disruptive, the minister would commend you before the whole congregation for being such a good Christian soldier.
I'm having a hard time picturing LC complaining about that kind of disruption. But a kid bothering nobody and keeping his mouth shut -- that's the kind of thing she just can't get behind.
I'm having a hard time picturing LC complaining about that kind of disruption. But a kid bothering nobody and keeping his mouth shut -- that's the kind of thing she just can't get behind.
111
loveschild, you are so full of piping hot crap that the very mention of your name draws flies (thank you, tony kushner).
that kid is totes ADORABLE!!! expect to see him arguing equal rights before the Supreme Court within the next 20 years. you read it here first.
that kid is totes ADORABLE!!! expect to see him arguing equal rights before the Supreme Court within the next 20 years. you read it here first.
112
I REALLY wanted to have something here to reply to Loveschild, but you all beat me to it, damn it. So just let me say Loveschild is a moron of the highest order.
She makes God weep.
She makes God weep.
114
@ Steve @ 103,
Here, consider it penance. I'm afraid I have nothing to add to the conversation, boobs are not my thing.
http://thebosh.com/archives/2008/09/sen_…
Here, consider it penance. I'm afraid I have nothing to add to the conversation, boobs are not my thing.
http://thebosh.com/archives/2008/09/sen_…
115
Hmm. My parents are conservative Christian creationists. However, they are also nice people who taught me basic human decency. At about this kid's age I figured out that if you shouldn't judge people by their appearances, that all were worthy of God's love; then it was perfectly silly to think that God would care about the shape of people's bodies, including their genitals. Therefore, love was a good thing even between two men or two women. I wrote a whole poem about it. So, it's perfectly possible for a kid to figure these things out on their own; my parents certainly had no idea that I'd reached this conclusion, and would have been appalled (About the same age I remember my mother telling me that she opposed the ERA because then men and women would have to use the same bathroom.) And it wasn't a topic of conversation at schools or in the media at the time (well before the interwebs) At any rate, I have grown up to be an atheist and socially liberal. Still love my conservative parents too, and they me. Family first.
Also, the really bright kids are often extremely sensitive to social injustice. This kid is clearly very bright. And he isn't parrotting anything, he knows what he is saying and why.
Also, the really bright kids are often extremely sensitive to social injustice. This kid is clearly very bright. And he isn't parrotting anything, he knows what he is saying and why.
116
Anyone who digs the kid's shirt can find it at Threadless.com:
http://typetees.threadless.com/product/9…
http://typetees.threadless.com/product/9…
117
LC@39: "And if we're going to go down this road then by all means then the diseases and other detriments that are brought about from a homosexual lifestyle need to also be taught."
Sure, as long as we also are sure to teach about the 'diseases and other detriments' brought about by a heterosexual lifestyle. Because I'm pretty sure there are one or two hetero lifestyles that'll bring you just as many diseases as that nasty gay lifestyle will (because we all know that teh gayz live the exact same barebacking, promiscuous way, amirite?). That's the point of the STD unit in sex ed; unfortunately, even many progressive, non-abstinence only programs overlook LGBT students and neglect to address the issues that affect them.
At my school, watching Ellen DeGeneres's coming out episode at the butt end of the semester after the teacher realized she "forgot" about homosexuality was the extent of the attention we got (we didn't even discuss it). Pretty insulting. The "gay lifestyle" wouldn't be as "harmful" as homophobes like you preach if you actually allowed adequate sex ed in school. Thus is the irony, I suppose.
Sure, as long as we also are sure to teach about the 'diseases and other detriments' brought about by a heterosexual lifestyle. Because I'm pretty sure there are one or two hetero lifestyles that'll bring you just as many diseases as that nasty gay lifestyle will (because we all know that teh gayz live the exact same barebacking, promiscuous way, amirite?). That's the point of the STD unit in sex ed; unfortunately, even many progressive, non-abstinence only programs overlook LGBT students and neglect to address the issues that affect them.
At my school, watching Ellen DeGeneres's coming out episode at the butt end of the semester after the teacher realized she "forgot" about homosexuality was the extent of the attention we got (we didn't even discuss it). Pretty insulting. The "gay lifestyle" wouldn't be as "harmful" as homophobes like you preach if you actually allowed adequate sex ed in school. Thus is the irony, I suppose.
118
Speaking of cunts, I can't stand wonkette. She makes liberals look like the idiots the right make them out to be.
120
@113, 144 Kim in portland (i'm a fan of yours, by the way)-- did you notice the google banner ad for the pill right above her picture?
121
This awesome kid wasn't disrupting class. The substitute teacher made a big deal out of it. Reciting the pledge has never been compulsory. Had he refrained for religious reasons, he would have been well within his rights to do so and commended by people like Loveschild- religious liberty and all that.
It's really crass to think that this kid doesn't have the intelligence to hold these views.
It's really crass to think that this kid doesn't have the intelligence to hold these views.
122
I stopped reading comments at around 105, but I have to ask, LovesChild:
How do you believe this kid was indoctrinated or put up to say these things when this whole thing came as a surprise to him in the first place?
Oh, dad was just lying to CNN is all, and the kid is a covert agent planted to indoctrinate his classmates, followed by his entire school, then the state, then THE WORLD? Ah. Okay, makes perfect sense. /sarcasm
That aside, I have to raise my hand as another person that stopped doing the pledge on moral grounds. Not religious at all, I just one day realized that it was kinda creepy, and - to me - looked just like the WWII film clips I've seen of ranks of kids saluting the Fuhrer.
How do you believe this kid was indoctrinated or put up to say these things when this whole thing came as a surprise to him in the first place?
Oh, dad was just lying to CNN is all, and the kid is a covert agent planted to indoctrinate his classmates, followed by his entire school, then the state, then THE WORLD? Ah. Okay, makes perfect sense. /sarcasm
That aside, I have to raise my hand as another person that stopped doing the pledge on moral grounds. Not religious at all, I just one day realized that it was kinda creepy, and - to me - looked just like the WWII film clips I've seen of ranks of kids saluting the Fuhrer.
123
122: Indoctrination apparently doesn't swing both ways if it's an indoctrination LC agrees with.
Some think that children are the least likely to fall for bullshit. I like to think that's Arkansas Boy's case. It's only when people get older and start to sense their own lack of power or control, or their desire to wield it, that they start turning their backs on the clarity of youth, and then start inflicting their dogmatism on others. Or trying to.
Some think that children are the least likely to fall for bullshit. I like to think that's Arkansas Boy's case. It's only when people get older and start to sense their own lack of power or control, or their desire to wield it, that they start turning their backs on the clarity of youth, and then start inflicting their dogmatism on others. Or trying to.
124
@123 -- I think you're right about kids being less willing to accept bullshit answers than adults are. You can hardly tell a small child anything without them wanting to know "Why, why, why, why, why?" Somewhere along the line, as people get older, far too many of them stop asking "Why?" and are far too willing to accept completely bullshit answers when they do bother to ask. This is particularly true of people with an Authoritarian mindset, who tend to think "because the people in charge said so" is an acceptable excuse to justify virtually anything.
125
@Lovechild - So supposing a 10-year-old fifth-grader accepted Jesus as their savior and I told you that they were too young to understand what that meant, wouldn't you tell me they were old enough to "decide for themselves"? Deciding that gays are people too shouldn't be so different.
Also, its obvious that the father didn't push their kid into deciding not to stand up, as he was originally going to reprimand him for being insubordinate, so the whole indoctrination thing is bogus.
I think basically you think that kids shouldn't have rights, which explains why you don't think they should be allowed to think for themselves, make decisions, and have the same rights the constitution grants adults. If I had kids I sure as hell would be terrified of letting them anywhere near you.
Also, its obvious that the father didn't push their kid into deciding not to stand up, as he was originally going to reprimand him for being insubordinate, so the whole indoctrination thing is bogus.
I think basically you think that kids shouldn't have rights, which explains why you don't think they should be allowed to think for themselves, make decisions, and have the same rights the constitution grants adults. If I had kids I sure as hell would be terrified of letting them anywhere near you.
126
Why is it okay for Loveschild to teach her children to hate gay people, but parents who teach their children tolerance for people who are different should be stopped?
127
Everyone has commented on this already, so yes, I'm late to the discussion, but unless the statement "I have every God given right as a parent to be secured in knowing that upon me dropping my kids at school they won't be taught ideologies that are opposite to the morals I teach them at home," was made about a private school, LC is quite dillusional, and I speak as someone who attended public schools in Texas for the entirety of my youth. That said, none of my teachers ever insulted my family's religion. I did meet lots of atheist and even some anti-Christian students, though. Not that I was insulted...in fact, the most insulting person I met in high school was a bigot dude who told my best friend she would go to hell for being Catholic instead of Baptist. Fun times.
But anyway, don't parents have the right to expect that their children's education won't be altered or watered-down due to the fact that some lessons might offend members of a certain religion? Again, unless they attend a private school.
Ok, ok, done feeding the trolls.
But anyway, don't parents have the right to expect that their children's education won't be altered or watered-down due to the fact that some lessons might offend members of a certain religion? Again, unless they attend a private school.
Ok, ok, done feeding the trolls.
128
@94
I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness and all through school I was taught things that my religion thought were pagan and just plan wrong but my mother never said anything to the teacher about not teaching them because she knew it was about choice and that it was better we, the children, see and learn things and choose to not go along with them then just keep us in the dark. I always thought God would of wanted people to choose His path instead of just being spoon fed it to them since birth. Religion is not going anywhere if that's what you're afraid of. And I'm not even talking about monotheism. Religions in all aspects are not disappearing. It has a place in society.
But hindering any group of people is wrong. I've personally had doctors mock me for not taking blood and children make fun of me for not celebrating holidays when I was younger so when I see a group of people being persecuted and treated unfairly for something they believe in that is not directly harming others, I feel for them and wish them equality.
It's people like you who give religion a bad name.
I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness and all through school I was taught things that my religion thought were pagan and just plan wrong but my mother never said anything to the teacher about not teaching them because she knew it was about choice and that it was better we, the children, see and learn things and choose to not go along with them then just keep us in the dark. I always thought God would of wanted people to choose His path instead of just being spoon fed it to them since birth. Religion is not going anywhere if that's what you're afraid of. And I'm not even talking about monotheism. Religions in all aspects are not disappearing. It has a place in society.
But hindering any group of people is wrong. I've personally had doctors mock me for not taking blood and children make fun of me for not celebrating holidays when I was younger so when I see a group of people being persecuted and treated unfairly for something they believe in that is not directly harming others, I feel for them and wish them equality.
It's people like you who give religion a bad name.
129
Why is this news? Honestly, don't we have better things to cover than a kid who doesn't want to recite the pledge? It's optional. No one is forced to stand and recite it. Again, why is this news? Is he suing the school? Was he expelled for not saying it? Yes, he's taking his own stand for equal rights, but still: who cares?
130
@121> This awesome kid wasn't disrupting class.
I'm glad someone said it. That point sort of got lost in the shuffle.
I'm glad someone said it. That point sort of got lost in the shuffle.
131
Aren't schools supposed to teach tolerance and understanding (like in Kindergarten: don't call that kid a name, it isn't nice. Share your toys, Jimmy)? How is teaching someone to be tolerant of other people against the beliefs of someone who claims to be Christian? Christ himself taught tolerance. Yet somehow, that always seems to get overlooked by people who use God and the Bible to justify their hate.
132
@131--And that's how we're going to win. Just keep slapping the bigots and haters down with the truth: their behavior is un-Christian and un-American. The real Christians, the real Americans are already on our side. More and more of them are joining us every day. Soon will the tide turn.
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