Friday, November 13, 2009
City / Tech McGinn: The Mac Mayor
Posted by Eli Sanders on Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 4:31 PM
Is there any doubt that in the race for mayor of Seattle, Mike McGinn was a Mac while Joe Mallahan and Greg Nickels were PCs?
Not really—and if there was any doubt, the election results pretty much settled the question.
So it probably shouldn't be any surprise that McGinn's transition team is looking into whether the mayor's office, currently run on PCs, can be converted into a Mac operation.
"We’ve asked the city IT folks about it and they’re looking into it for us," said transition spokesman Aaron Pickus. "They were talking about new computers for the mayor’s office anyway, so right now we are looking to see if Mike and the mayor’s staff can work on Macs."
Another sign of the changing tech styles at city hall: Thus far the transition team has eschewed the Blackberries usually handed out to mayoral staffers and instead asked for four iPhones (at a cost of $198 each). McGinn himself already has an iPhone, and is hanging on to it as he heads into his new job.
"It is in part a way to stick with the technology we were most comfortable with during the campaign, and in our personal experience," Pickus said.
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3
I voted for McGinn, but this seems like a silly thing for him to concern himself with. I can't see what purpose this serves other than personal preference, and the last time I heard, we were in a budget crisis.
4
There really isn't anything a PC can do that a Mac can't.
Mind you, we mostly use Linux, with a few dual-boot Linux/Win machines around here, but Win wastes a heck of a lot of cycles on graphics that really makes no difference.
Mind you, we mostly use Linux, with a few dual-boot Linux/Win machines around here, but Win wastes a heck of a lot of cycles on graphics that really makes no difference.
5
Ug. Really? Macs are so overrated. I don't know how anyone can still talk seriously about those being the superior product.
6
Also, most other businesses and government organizations use PCs so wouldn't this just make it unnecessarily difficult to share info and network with other entities?
8
hmmm...well there is the fact that mcginn is running his transition team 'open-source' and mac computers run on proprietary software/hardware. i guess that makes him more of a flavor of linux. kuki linux maybe?
9
My only concern would be that they might throw away perfectly functional pcs for the purpose. Better to just buy macs as the old pcs are phased out.
Better yet to get a mac capable of running windows and letting the operator decide on a platform.
Better yet to get a mac capable of running windows and letting the operator decide on a platform.
11
Really? Way to support local business. Microsoft is LOCAL. Why would you want(as a function of city government) to stop contributing to the largest company in the NW.
I have never understood Seattle's obsession with Apple. I think it really speaks poorly of Seattle residents that they would not champion their own local company. Where is the pride?
I have never understood Seattle's obsession with Apple. I think it really speaks poorly of Seattle residents that they would not champion their own local company. Where is the pride?
12
@9 - turnover for executive level computers is usually two years anyway, so they're due to be replaced.
FACT: Microsoft makes way more each time you buy a Mac (due to the software you end up using) than when you buy a Windows box.
Unless you go with totally open source software like most of the world uses. You know, Firefox, Opera, OpenOffice.
FACT: Microsoft makes way more each time you buy a Mac (due to the software you end up using) than when you buy a Windows box.
Unless you go with totally open source software like most of the world uses. You know, Firefox, Opera, OpenOffice.
13
See, I think McGinn is not stylish enough to be a Mac. Have you seen those shoes? The brown sportcoat?
14
Hahaha nice one #7
I think Linux might be a nicer label for McGinn...
""We're not just going to talk to important elected officials, nor are we just going to talk to the same old people who advise new mayors about how things should work—we're going to talk to everybody."
Sounds very Linux, and VERY un-Mac.
Mac would be all "We're going to only talk to important elected officials, because they're the experts at this, and clearly superior to Joe Common".
And Windows would say "We're going to only talk to the same old people, because they've been here so long they must know how it's done".
But, I might only be rebutting this Mac-praise of a post because I hate Macintosh and their smamy ads. Oh, you have no viruses? That's great, you forgot to mention that it's mainly because no-one has bothered to make Mac viruses yet, because you own diddly-squat of the PC market.
I think Linux might be a nicer label for McGinn...
""We're not just going to talk to important elected officials, nor are we just going to talk to the same old people who advise new mayors about how things should work—we're going to talk to everybody."
Sounds very Linux, and VERY un-Mac.
Mac would be all "We're going to only talk to important elected officials, because they're the experts at this, and clearly superior to Joe Common".
And Windows would say "We're going to only talk to the same old people, because they've been here so long they must know how it's done".
But, I might only be rebutting this Mac-praise of a post because I hate Macintosh and their smamy ads. Oh, you have no viruses? That's great, you forgot to mention that it's mainly because no-one has bothered to make Mac viruses yet, because you own diddly-squat of the PC market.
15
Yeah, this is a pretty idiotic thing to be concerned with. And knowing the old and outdated, bizarro, hacked-together proprietary software that municipal governments often have to work with, I'd be shocked if any or most of those programs worked on Macs. I suppose you could run Bootcamp or Parallels, but then that's even more money wasted.
16
That's a smart thing to spend money on in the middle of the one of the biggest budget shortfalls in the cities history. What a bunch of fucking idiots.
18
Doubtful, Microsoft made a deal with the city in the early days, which is why all city workers are on PCs.
19
yes, let's replace perfect functional computers to suit personal preference while we're in the middle of a budget crisis. way to lead us into a brighter tomorrow!
20
@12, only twats turn over their machines every two years. We're on a four-year cycle, stretched to five about half the time.
The city probably has two hundred Dells sitting around still in boxes at any given moment.
This is a good full-employment plan for McGinn, as every geek in the city has to learn all new stuff and then spend all of their waking moments trying to (a) make it work and (b) figure out why it's not compatible. There are, I'm sure, dozens of specialized apps the city runs that don't work on Macs (indeed, barely work at all).
And everybody knows that, while PCs are not "better than" Macs, or vice versa (the phrase doesn't even have meaning), Mac users are assuredly stupider than PC users on almost every measure.
The city probably has two hundred Dells sitting around still in boxes at any given moment.
This is a good full-employment plan for McGinn, as every geek in the city has to learn all new stuff and then spend all of their waking moments trying to (a) make it work and (b) figure out why it's not compatible. There are, I'm sure, dozens of specialized apps the city runs that don't work on Macs (indeed, barely work at all).
And everybody knows that, while PCs are not "better than" Macs, or vice versa (the phrase doesn't even have meaning), Mac users are assuredly stupider than PC users on almost every measure.
21
"We’ve asked the city IT folks about it and they’re looking into it for us"
I can almost here the collective *sigh* from here.
I can almost here the collective *sigh* from here.
23
#11: Microsoft licenses out of Reno to avoid paying local taxes. Palo Alto is closer to being local.
25
How much software does a mayor run anyway? I'm guessing e-mail, a browser, and maybe excel. His time is more valuable in meetings and on the phone than at a keyboard.
26
As you can run both WIndows an OSX (not to mention almost any flavor or Linux) all at the same time on a Mac, it seems pretty silly to use a Windows machine.
27
I work in a mixed OSX and XP environment, and we don't have any problems. We decided to skip Vista, so we'll see what happens when our Win people switch to 7, but I'm betting it will still work. As long as everybody uses standard file formats, everything's cool.
As for the iphones, I'd rather have one than a Blackberry any day, and they can actually be cheaper.
As for the iphones, I'd rather have one than a Blackberry any day, and they can actually be cheaper.
28
Microsoft doesn't want McGinn's pity. Microsoft doesn't want Seattle's pity. Or ANYBODY's pity! OK?
If you don't want a PC, that's FINE! Microsoft will find buyers for their stuff somewhere; don't you worry. Just don't say you have to use a PC because you feel sorry for the local company. Leave them a shred of dignity. Can you do that much?
If you don't want a PC, that's FINE! Microsoft will find buyers for their stuff somewhere; don't you worry. Just don't say you have to use a PC because you feel sorry for the local company. Leave them a shred of dignity. Can you do that much?
30
@11,
Are you kidding? There's no way I'm going to buy crappy products out of loyalty. Do you throw a shit fit when you find out you'll be flying on an Airbus and not a Boeing plane?
Besides, Microsoft products are ubiquitous. Anyone not actively trying to avoid them will have some Microsoft products on their computer.
Are you kidding? There's no way I'm going to buy crappy products out of loyalty. Do you throw a shit fit when you find out you'll be flying on an Airbus and not a Boeing plane?
Besides, Microsoft products are ubiquitous. Anyone not actively trying to avoid them will have some Microsoft products on their computer.
31
So McGinn (controlled by the AT&T subsidiary Mercury Group) wants to ditch the T-Mobile Blackberries the city currently uses for iPhones (that only run on AT&T's network). And his prime initiative is for public broadband, which would destroy the Starbucks/T-Mobile private Wifi Hotspot network?
The mayoral campaign was nothing but a power grab by the local telecom giants, wake up sheeple!!!
The mayoral campaign was nothing but a power grab by the local telecom giants, wake up sheeple!!!
33
I love how Apple has been able to market a high-end luxury product for upper-income consumers as some kind of hip, counter-cultural form of social rebellion. Only in America.
34
Why doesn't someone do an expose of the Mercury Group, and their impact on McGinn and his campaign- as well as their other clients?
Might be nice to get full disclosure on this from Mike. What is he hiding?
Why spend the extra money? Our new mayor is too dang hip to use what the lowly city employees use - we're not his people, clearly.
Might be nice to get full disclosure on this from Mike. What is he hiding?
Why spend the extra money? Our new mayor is too dang hip to use what the lowly city employees use - we're not his people, clearly.
35
I freaking hate those "I'm a Mac" ads. They make me hate Mac. Mac's are snide hipsters, PCs are bumbling incompetents, I don't want either of them on my desk or lap.
36
"I love how Apple has been able to market a high-end luxury product for upper-income consumers as some kind of hip, counter-cultural form of social rebellion. "
And now they think they should use them in City Hall...these guys are headed for a fucking financial cliff and they want iPhones and Macs? Seriously, could you look more like the privileged upper middle class college educated white liberals you are?
And now they think they should use them in City Hall...these guys are headed for a fucking financial cliff and they want iPhones and Macs? Seriously, could you look more like the privileged upper middle class college educated white liberals you are?
37
This thread says a lot more about most of the commenters here than the McGinn team.
The Seattle city government is not all going to convert to Mac just because the McGinn team is more comfortable with Macs. It's not brain science to get Macs and Windows machines to coexist and talk to each other.
It's probably healthy if we have a city government that familiarizes itself with both platforms (and Linux too) to sone degree.
...I say this as someone happy with a Windows XP desktop machine plus an iPhone.
The Seattle city government is not all going to convert to Mac just because the McGinn team is more comfortable with Macs. It's not brain science to get Macs and Windows machines to coexist and talk to each other.
It's probably healthy if we have a city government that familiarizes itself with both platforms (and Linux too) to sone degree.
...I say this as someone happy with a Windows XP desktop machine plus an iPhone.
38
I like my mac, but I hate the ads. And the hype. A bitchy friend had the nerve to tell me I may look like a mac, but I suck dick like a PC (I'm a little gaggy, so what).
I remember Obama caught shit for wanting to use a device with poor security. How's that work with an iphone?
I remember Obama caught shit for wanting to use a device with poor security. How's that work with an iphone?
39
"It's probably healthy if we have a city government that familiarizes itself with both platforms (and Linux too) to sone degree"
In the middle of its worst budget crisis?
Earth calling...
In the middle of its worst budget crisis?
Earth calling...
40
If someone who's going to lead needs extra time to ramp up to a whole different computer platform, isn't that more of a waste of money and time?
You'd all be complaining if McGinn said "I will take time to learn this Windows Vista or XP thing" surely.
You'd all be complaining if McGinn said "I will take time to learn this Windows Vista or XP thing" surely.
41
i'm using a commodore 64 with a 300baud dialup modem right now, so i'm getting a kick out of these replies.
42
@39 Yes, the budget is so bad, let's buy nothing to help who we elected, and communicate with sticky notes instead. Because computers cost millions of dollars obviously.
43
I bet a Mallahan election dinner at the Edgewater alone (something that likely would have happened if Mallahan won) would have cost more than a few extra Mac computers and iPhones.
44
congrats on finding an intensely flame-prone mix of topics of very minor significance to keep PC/MAC battles raging all weekend.
(oh, and remember way back in january when the same thing happened to the Obama administration?)
(oh, and remember way back in january when the same thing happened to the Obama administration?)
46
To everyone who thinks this is a "waste of time or money": Let's be clear about one thing: the request was to look into running the MAYOR'S OFFICE on Macs, not the entire city government. The Mayor's office has perhaps half a dozen staff. The City as a whole has thousands. Even if they bought top-of-the-line Macs it would cost perhaps $10,000. Put that in the context of a $4,000,000,000 annual budget and you have what we call "budget dust". It is so insignificant that it is not even worth mentioning, and if it makes the Mayor and his staff (whose time is in overwhelmingly high demand) even 1% more productive due to familiarity, then it is well worth it to the taxpayers.
Note: this comment has nothing to do with Macs vs. PCs. I would say the same exact thing if the Mayor's office was run on Macs and a new Mayor asked if they could switch to PCs.
Trying to save money by refusing to give your executive team the tools to maximize their productivity is penny wise and pound foolish. Thank god you idiots aren't in charge of any sizable amount of money.
Note: this comment has nothing to do with Macs vs. PCs. I would say the same exact thing if the Mayor's office was run on Macs and a new Mayor asked if they could switch to PCs.
Trying to save money by refusing to give your executive team the tools to maximize their productivity is penny wise and pound foolish. Thank god you idiots aren't in charge of any sizable amount of money.
49
I like Mike McGinn, I really do. But this is the Seattle version of dog-whistle cultural cues. A hell of a lot less pernicious than in other parts of the country, sure, but it's going to get real old real fast if it keeps up.
50
@11, hahahahaha! "Pride" in fucking Microsoft..??
Right, that's just what Seattle residents should do: take pride in a company that makes shitty products with preplanned problems that can be "fixed" and "upgraded" for the next release you're supposed to shell out for.
Fuckin' A, man... Just because it's next door in the fucking EASTSIDE doesn't mean we're going to reflexively take pride in it...
Right, that's just what Seattle residents should do: take pride in a company that makes shitty products with preplanned problems that can be "fixed" and "upgraded" for the next release you're supposed to shell out for.
Fuckin' A, man... Just because it's next door in the fucking EASTSIDE doesn't mean we're going to reflexively take pride in it...
51
@50 Microsoft is on the eastside, but a major prectage of their employees live on the WESTSIDE. I notice he says this after the election.....it would have not gone down so well before.
DUMBASS!
DUMBASS!
52
Macs are cheaper than PCs, duh! It's a fact, look it up!!
I'd suggest Big Blue hardware on every desktop (64 proc and 4TB ram). It'll keep the electrical and hvac unions happy, at least.
I'd suggest Big Blue hardware on every desktop (64 proc and 4TB ram). It'll keep the electrical and hvac unions happy, at least.
53
What I want to know does McGinn wear boxers or briefs. You folks should know since you like to kiss his ass all the time. This is hipster drivel. Mac or PC what a civic breakthrough. Save money stick with the PC's
54
I don't like the idea of city computers using MAC. It's way too expensive and you can accomplish everything with Ubuntu, which is free. Replacing all the computers to new computers that cost 2-3 times as much as other brands that do the exact same thing would be a giant waste of money. I'm not saying the city should be exclusively PC or MAC, but the majority of everything is currently on the much cheaper PC platform.
If they want to spend their own money switching every computer system platform that's fine by me. If Mike, and a few other select staffers prefer a mac over a PC, or need something that's exclusively on mac I see no problem with it. I'm a little concerned with the price of upgrades, that are usually necessary for some software upgrades, something that also makes windows cheaper as even something like windows XP can play 99% of the programs.
I had no idea McGinn was a mac guy, but as you say whatever works for you. Technology kicks ass even if it's way overpriced. I don't think it really matters what you use, so long as you get whatever it is you want done. I think in terms of social media iPhone was really created ot serve that crowd, but I would hope when the campaign is over and the real work starts to get done a few of those staffers will think twice about a blackberry. :p
If they want to spend their own money switching every computer system platform that's fine by me. If Mike, and a few other select staffers prefer a mac over a PC, or need something that's exclusively on mac I see no problem with it. I'm a little concerned with the price of upgrades, that are usually necessary for some software upgrades, something that also makes windows cheaper as even something like windows XP can play 99% of the programs.
I had no idea McGinn was a mac guy, but as you say whatever works for you. Technology kicks ass even if it's way overpriced. I don't think it really matters what you use, so long as you get whatever it is you want done. I think in terms of social media iPhone was really created ot serve that crowd, but I would hope when the campaign is over and the real work starts to get done a few of those staffers will think twice about a blackberry. :p
56
the troll has always and only used macs-
those who question their superiority are morons.
however in the grownup world there would be compatibility issues, it would look bad re:hometown microsoft and most important- mcginn only wishes he were cool enough for mac.
it is a typical style over substance shallow hipster gimmick.
those who question their superiority are morons.
however in the grownup world there would be compatibility issues, it would look bad re:hometown microsoft and most important- mcginn only wishes he were cool enough for mac.
it is a typical style over substance shallow hipster gimmick.
57
I'm with the folks who have said that this seems like an odd thing to be at the top of the transition list. It costs a lot of money and time to revamp office network hardware. And I don't think McGinn was the Mac to Mallahan's PC. You may like McGinn's politics, but the guy is as cranky and uncool as they come, IMO.
58
What makes you think this is at the top of the transition list? It sounds like something you should ask about while setting up a new office, which appears to be all that has happened. Get a grip, windows fans.
60
Wow. This is such a glaring example of immaturity of the "transition team" -- thousands of people are unemployed, 20% vacancy rate, housing values in the tank, but first things first McGinn wants a Mac office.
62
Hey, McGinn should be purchasing refurbished Macs. Much cheaper and still more power than is needed for web/word/spreedsheet. Or better yet just purchase Seattle residents macs from craigslist.
63
I'm sorry, iPhones are cool, but in an actual WORK setting they pale in comparison to a blackberry. Good luck with that shitty email client and softkeys, guys.
Unless this isn't actually about work... I hear the iPhone has lots of nifty apps.
Unless this isn't actually about work... I hear the iPhone has lots of nifty apps.
64
#50 preplanned problems? What the fuck are you even talking about?
Also, I thought the first sentence was the stupidest sentence in this post, but no, it's actually the second: http://www.tuaw.com/2009/01/02/apple-mar…
Also, I thought the first sentence was the stupidest sentence in this post, but no, it's actually the second: http://www.tuaw.com/2009/01/02/apple-mar…
65
I still hate those ads. I change the channel when they come on, I am that sick if them. And all the lame copy-cat ads? Fuck them, too.
66
The total cost of ownership for Macs is lower. They're easier to secure, easier to maintain, and easier to use. Plus, they can run NeoOffice and save a bundle on Office licensing. The mayor has the right idea. But they should look at Android phones as an alternative to Blackerries and iPhones.
68
@58 is right. And even if they really want to switch, right now they're just giddy with winning. It happens with every new regimes, and always takes a few months to come back down to earth and be real. Like, you can't change everything into your dream world right away, when you have a constituency of over 500,000 to answer to. Take a deep breath... there...
69
66: I've had the same PC for seven years, and it works just fine. I've never had to have it repaired. It was cheaper than a powerbook. I have a windows-based laptop right now that cost me about 400 bucks. Maybe I'm just careful with what a I own or perhaps I just know what I'm doing, but the idea that it's more expensive to buy or maintain a PC is pure fucking myth, probably perpetuated by rabid Mac users finding new reasons for their superiority.
Now if you're talking about an office setting specifically, you may be right.
Now if you're talking about an office setting specifically, you may be right.
71
His decision will still support local business. If McGinn takes out the old PCs and installs Macs, he'll likely have to install Microsoft Office on each machine, if for no other reason than to access email and calendar, but also to run the word processor everyone uses and the spreadsheets everyone uses. He could try to go with OpenOffice, but I'd expect compatibility issues and, considering the volume of documents that march through the office of a mayor of a major city, it'll become too aggravating. The differences between Outlook and Entourage may be too aggravating.
If he decides to use Omni Group software, that's also a very capable local outfit.
It is possible to select a lower-end PC that is cheaper than an equivalently geared lower-end Mac. Machines geared for desktop publishing or video editing require higher end gear and more RAM; that's where Macs are more competitive on overall price. It is also possible to equip a high-end PC with gear that simply don't exist for Macs; those are high-end gamer systems.
The iPhone is obviously not the cheapest phone on the market, either, but Apple is selling a lot of them, despite AT&T.
If he decides to use Omni Group software, that's also a very capable local outfit.
It is possible to select a lower-end PC that is cheaper than an equivalently geared lower-end Mac. Machines geared for desktop publishing or video editing require higher end gear and more RAM; that's where Macs are more competitive on overall price. It is also possible to equip a high-end PC with gear that simply don't exist for Macs; those are high-end gamer systems.
The iPhone is obviously not the cheapest phone on the market, either, but Apple is selling a lot of them, despite AT&T.
75
I love McGinns supporters who are too dumb to realize this is not whether he buys a Mac or a PC...it's whether he buys a Mac AND doesn't use the computers already available.
You all understand what a deficit is right?
You all understand what a deficit is right?
76
The fact that these hipster dipshits who ran McGinn's campaign can't use PCs (and I have always used Macs) is proof that they have NO experience in the real world, whether government or business. God fucking help us.
77
I don't get it. To me, this election seemed to come down to Spacely Sprockets versus Cogswell Cogs: Two boring guys spouting pretty much the same line, which was not that different from what Nickels had to say. How anyone could get worked up about either one is beyond me.
You want to get worked up about stupid waste in the city? Get your panties in a bunch about this: There are thousands of reams of city letterhead with Greg Nickel's name on it that are going to get trashed come the inauguration. Every department, for some reason, has to have the Mayor's name on their letterhead. I'm sure it's some custom that dates back to the founding of the city, but why are we still doing it?
But no - it's much more exciting to get in some dreary argument about a handful of computers and cell phones.
You want to get worked up about stupid waste in the city? Get your panties in a bunch about this: There are thousands of reams of city letterhead with Greg Nickel's name on it that are going to get trashed come the inauguration. Every department, for some reason, has to have the Mayor's name on their letterhead. I'm sure it's some custom that dates back to the founding of the city, but why are we still doing it?
But no - it's much more exciting to get in some dreary argument about a handful of computers and cell phones.
78
@71: Precisely. Microsoft has been the #1 software vendor on the Mac platform for a loooong time, mostly because of Office.
Honestly. Mac vs. Windows has been presented as something akin to English vs Japanese. As a user of both, I can say it's more like Swedish vs. Danish. At this point they're so similar, there's little justification for much fuss.
Well... Aside from the fact that Macs sometimes do snow crashes. I've never seen a Windows machine do that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxmMufSin…
Honestly. Mac vs. Windows has been presented as something akin to English vs Japanese. As a user of both, I can say it's more like Swedish vs. Danish. At this point they're so similar, there's little justification for much fuss.
Well... Aside from the fact that Macs sometimes do snow crashes. I've never seen a Windows machine do that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxmMufSin…
79
Let's try that Mac snow crash link again, since I had to confirm my acct:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxmMufSin…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxmMufSin…
82
"It is in part a way to stick with the technology we were most comfortable with during the campaign, and in our personal experience." Does it really take *that* long to figure out how to use a fucking PC? If it does, I seriously worry about your mayor and his staff.
83
Eh, let them use whatever they're comfortable with, as long as it helps them get more done with their time.
84
I've used both PCs and Mac (didn't realize that was a particularly special skill), but mostly use PCs because of the business I'm in. Working with graphics? Get a Mac. Working with numbers? Get a PC. I'm really hoping that the Mayor's Office will be doing a lot more work on numbers than graphics...
85
the reason why this is such a big story is because it demonstrates that McGinn and the "advocates" are really amateurs and are not up to the job of managing 11,000 employees and billion dollar budgets. just wait..... sometime next spring Wall Street will lower the bond rating of the City due to these clowns.
86
Wow people... get a life. The new mayor gets to buy new computers because the old ones are up for replacement. Technology marches on, making five year old computers obsolete, much to our collective chagrin. Fucking deal with it.
87
Why do they even need new computers if they are checking email and writing word documents? Send them all Pentium-II beige boxes. That will keep them off the youtubes as well, further increasing productivity!
89
@11 and others: last time I checked, Microsoft doesn't actually manufacture computers, they only create software that runs on computers. By switching to Apple, the only software they may not be buying is the OS. Of course, if they run BootCamp or Parallels (as I do) then they WILL be buying XP/VISTA/Win7 anyway. I still run MS Office on my Mac. I still run Entourage (soon to become OutlookMac). How are they not supporting MS?
@23, great point. Hopefully more folks will read that.
You all should be happy they are considering a change to Apple just for the SECURITY reasons. Unless you want the mayor and his staff running around with laptops that could be breached easily at any given time....
@23, great point. Hopefully more folks will read that.
You all should be happy they are considering a change to Apple just for the SECURITY reasons. Unless you want the mayor and his staff running around with laptops that could be breached easily at any given time....
90
@79 Never seen that before. Have been using macs for 20 years. My office currently has 18 Macs, various models and ages. Our 2 Dell laptops are used for a propitiatory Boeing accounting system that they force their vendors to use. These machines SUCK.
91
Due to Microsoft's predatory behavior, organizations now have a choice if they stick with Windows: Buy all new computers, or use a combination of Windows versions which have very different user interfaces. Also, the new Office 2007 has a radically different user interface from all old versions of Office (and no option to keep using the old interface).
The new versions won't work on old computers as Windows 7 requires 1 GB of RAM and 16 GB available disk space. This is 8 times the RAM requirement of Windows XP which has been discontinued.
So this is a pretty smart time to switch to Macs if an organization is so inclined.
The new versions won't work on old computers as Windows 7 requires 1 GB of RAM and 16 GB available disk space. This is 8 times the RAM requirement of Windows XP which has been discontinued.
So this is a pretty smart time to switch to Macs if an organization is so inclined.
92
The less policy McGinn's office inflicts upon us, the better. Let them buy Playstations and beanbag chairs instead of computers and maybe they'll just leave us alone.
93
All we are seeing here are Microsoft payroll-patriots. Fuck you. Fuck you very very much. You turn on a Mac, and it will probably work for a few years. With windows, you have viruses, and general rot, after 6 months the thing just bogs down and nothing works, and you have to reimage it. Gimme a fucking break. In terms of human lives lost, Microsoft is up there with Pol Pot, Hitler, and Stalin. http://www.aqdi.com/death.htm
94
So the Mayor's office, which is quite comfortable using Macs, is supposed to learn how to use an inferior system just because the company's headquarters is over the lake aways? Nonsense.
And for those who think you have to use Microsoft programs on a Mac, that is also utter nonsense. The Mac comes with all the programs you need and works great right out of the box. Normal people never have to buy Microsoft software to do word-processing, email or surf the net.
Not only that, you won't have to worry about getting all those viruses that PC's do.
And for those who think you have to use Microsoft programs on a Mac, that is also utter nonsense. The Mac comes with all the programs you need and works great right out of the box. Normal people never have to buy Microsoft software to do word-processing, email or surf the net.
Not only that, you won't have to worry about getting all those viruses that PC's do.
95
Macs have better security. They don't crash all the time. Just because they know how to advertise themselves (yet another arena pcs suck at) doesn't make them all hype.
The mayors office will spend less on tech support and general hair pulling and time wasted in the long run. And when the rest of you come down with a virus they'll still have functioning computers.
The mayors office will spend less on tech support and general hair pulling and time wasted in the long run. And when the rest of you come down with a virus they'll still have functioning computers.
96
This is the most idiotic proposal. MSFT is a major (perhaps the major with Boeing moving on) employer in our region. To not support MSFT and the employer of a large number of Seattle residents is stupid and ego driven. There isn't a thing in that the Mayor's office does that a Mac can perform better than a PC. Here I thought Aaron Pickus was smart with the campaign that he ran with Bill Broadhead and they come out and propose this idiotic idea. Very disappointing.
97
I know for a fact that some city applications only run in IE7 on a Windows PC. Even IE8 breaks them (well, IE8 breaks lots of things, most of them on purpose). Now, since the mayor doesn't actually do any real work, this won't matter much, and any old email client will do; but for his whole department?
100
Which applications, Fnarf? I'm wondering which vital function the mayor's office staff will be unable to perform on a Mac.
Of course, you can run Windows on a Mac and and not even in a special window, AND that requires a Windows license which means Microsoft still gets their cut. Which will avert the layoffs in Redmond that McGinn is going to cause by not using a Dell.
Of course, you can run Windows on a Mac and and not even in a special window, AND that requires a Windows license which means Microsoft still gets their cut. Which will avert the layoffs in Redmond that McGinn is going to cause by not using a Dell.
102
But oh, God, you can't ask IT to install Parallels on a dozen Macs. How dare you ask IT to do one fucking thing. They're soooooo overworked and everything is sooooo haaaaaard.
Seriously. What CAN you task IT with? I have never in my life seen a IT worker accept any request without acting like a fucking martyr because someone wanted them to back away from the goddamn games for five minutes and do some actual work.
Dear IT: Ifyou hate your job that much, quit. There are plenty of people smarter than you who would be happy to have your job.
Seriously. What CAN you task IT with? I have never in my life seen a IT worker accept any request without acting like a fucking martyr because someone wanted them to back away from the goddamn games for five minutes and do some actual work.
Dear IT: Ifyou hate your job that much, quit. There are plenty of people smarter than you who would be happy to have your job.
103
@100: Safe Harbors, for one. I'm sure there are many others. Most of the city's work is done on a variety of weird, specialized, custom web apps that barely work on the established platforms, let alone new ones. As I said, the mayor doesn't actually do any work, so it probably doesn't matter; if he wants to know what's going on in Safe Harbors he'll ask a department head to tell him.
104
@102 - It is hard because you are an idiot. Installing Parallels means that they now have to helpdesk DOUBLE the number of operating systems.
Understanding why people behave is pretty fucking amazingly simple if you actually THINK about it for a sec, isn't it.
Understanding why people behave is pretty fucking amazingly simple if you actually THINK about it for a sec, isn't it.
105
I remember when we coded in an easter egg for the cop shop that had a pic of our boss' head exploding when you clicked on it.
Look, it's a desktop for email - and, in the real world, a lot of us in Seattle use Linux or BSD or Mac so it's time somebody stood up to the Microsoft Mafia.
Entire COUNTRIES have gone open source and ditched Microsoft - we'll still use their software, so I don't see why it's such a big deal, especially when they jacked up the OS price and Office enterprise price so much.
Look, it's a desktop for email - and, in the real world, a lot of us in Seattle use Linux or BSD or Mac so it's time somebody stood up to the Microsoft Mafia.
Entire COUNTRIES have gone open source and ditched Microsoft - we'll still use their software, so I don't see why it's such a big deal, especially when they jacked up the OS price and Office enterprise price so much.
106
http://www.safeharbors.org/ ? That is scary. It's not clear what it does, besides "end homelessness". Seems like a collection of statistics and demographics on homeless people it he city.
You know, if having the mayor on a different platform gives them an incentive to stop using overspecialized database front ends that only work for users with blue eyes when the moon is full, and instead to build generic interfaces that anybody can connect to... then, it becomes possible to imagine giving the public access to a lot more city data without having to make a federal case out of it.
Just saying.
You know, if having the mayor on a different platform gives them an incentive to stop using overspecialized database front ends that only work for users with blue eyes when the moon is full, and instead to build generic interfaces that anybody can connect to... then, it becomes possible to imagine giving the public access to a lot more city data without having to make a federal case out of it.
Just saying.
108
@106
Creating a generic interface for many departments with vastly different kinds of data and tracking processes would most likely just end up with something that only partially works for everyone. I'm not sure that's any better.
Creating a generic interface for many departments with vastly different kinds of data and tracking processes would most likely just end up with something that only partially works for everyone. I'm not sure that's any better.
109
If the new mayor wants a mac for himself and a dozen members of his immediate staff, then thats fine. If he wants to replace EVERYTHING with Mac's, why thats a whole different story.
#1) Mac are just as unsafe and insecure as PCs. The people who write virus's and trojans tend to target PCs because they have a much larger install base. If your trojan infects 5% of the PC base, then thats tens of millions of computers. If it infects 5% of the Mac base, then thats tens of thousands of computers. Right now there are many phone based trojans and viruses flying around, guess what, most are designed for the iphone because the iphone has dominated the industry. To not use anti virus on a Mac because you have been fooled into thinking that Macs cant get infected, well thats alot like thinking "Well im a straight male, I dont need a condom, i'll never get HIV".
#2) The only thing that a Mac does better than a PC, tends to be graphic design and most of that has to do with the fact that the designer is just flat our more comfertable with a Mac as they have used them all their life.
#3) Mac's cost ALOT more than PCs and for the most part, use alot of the same equipment that PCs use (Intel motherboard, Western Digital Hard Drive, nVidia video card, Corsair Memory, etc). If both systems provide the same level of performance and use the same hardware, then why is the Mac is 2 to 3 times more expensive? Name brand basically.
One is better off just buying Mac OSX licenses and installing them on compatible PCs they have. If the new mayor hates the tunnel because it costs too much and does so little, then why replace the entire office with expensive Mac just to get a slight performance boost (if any at all). It would be a HUGE waste of money just to get name brand recognition. That or just install Linux and pay nothing. Regardless if your paying for OSX licenses or going with a free version of Linux, youre still spending alot of money to transition over to that platform and re-train all existing PC users on how to use the Mac or Linux OS. If youre betting that "well if they know Windows, then Mac should be easy for them", then your going to lose money as some people are too stupid to figure out Mac or Windows.
One question that nobody asked the Mayor, that really needs to be asked. Since the mayor want a faster broadband to residents, most likely using Fiber.
Question) How is the Mayor going to handle Qwest when they immediatly sue the city the second the mayor proposes a plan to wire up the city using Fiber?
Qwest has done this twice and sucessfully got previous mayors to back down, each time milking copper a little bit. Tacoma has been wired for Fiber since .... 1997?
More...
#1) Mac are just as unsafe and insecure as PCs. The people who write virus's and trojans tend to target PCs because they have a much larger install base. If your trojan infects 5% of the PC base, then thats tens of millions of computers. If it infects 5% of the Mac base, then thats tens of thousands of computers. Right now there are many phone based trojans and viruses flying around, guess what, most are designed for the iphone because the iphone has dominated the industry. To not use anti virus on a Mac because you have been fooled into thinking that Macs cant get infected, well thats alot like thinking "Well im a straight male, I dont need a condom, i'll never get HIV".
#2) The only thing that a Mac does better than a PC, tends to be graphic design and most of that has to do with the fact that the designer is just flat our more comfertable with a Mac as they have used them all their life.
#3) Mac's cost ALOT more than PCs and for the most part, use alot of the same equipment that PCs use (Intel motherboard, Western Digital Hard Drive, nVidia video card, Corsair Memory, etc). If both systems provide the same level of performance and use the same hardware, then why is the Mac is 2 to 3 times more expensive? Name brand basically.
One is better off just buying Mac OSX licenses and installing them on compatible PCs they have. If the new mayor hates the tunnel because it costs too much and does so little, then why replace the entire office with expensive Mac just to get a slight performance boost (if any at all). It would be a HUGE waste of money just to get name brand recognition. That or just install Linux and pay nothing. Regardless if your paying for OSX licenses or going with a free version of Linux, youre still spending alot of money to transition over to that platform and re-train all existing PC users on how to use the Mac or Linux OS. If youre betting that "well if they know Windows, then Mac should be easy for them", then your going to lose money as some people are too stupid to figure out Mac or Windows.
One question that nobody asked the Mayor, that really needs to be asked. Since the mayor want a faster broadband to residents, most likely using Fiber.
Question) How is the Mayor going to handle Qwest when they immediatly sue the city the second the mayor proposes a plan to wire up the city using Fiber?
Qwest has done this twice and sucessfully got previous mayors to back down, each time milking copper a little bit. Tacoma has been wired for Fiber since .... 1997?
111
@110 - not much, most businesses have tons of computers on stock, which is part of why used computers are so cheap right now.
P.S.: You can get a 1080p 32 inch LCD HDTV on Black Friday for only $250 this year. See you at Target!
P.S.: You can get a 1080p 32 inch LCD HDTV on Black Friday for only $250 this year. See you at Target!
112
Jeez Fnarf, and here I thought you were actually intelligent.
So because the City hires dumbshit lazy developers who rely on bugs in IE for their shit to work, Macs are a problem?
Microsoft fanbois are the fucking worst.
So because the City hires dumbshit lazy developers who rely on bugs in IE for their shit to work, Macs are a problem?
Microsoft fanbois are the fucking worst.
113
@109:
You're wrong on all three counts, thanks.
#1) Bullshit. MSFT's retarded commitment to backwards-compatibility is the reason their executable is a monolithic buggy POS. The web browser fucking runs as a privileged user! Microsoft's OS design is inherently insecure. If they'd ditch the backwards compatibility (like Apple did), and design a brand new OS from the ground up that is built with security in mind (like Apple did), then they might be able to make the same boast that Apple does about lack of viruses. It's a bullshit piece of "conventional wisdom" that sounds good to people with MSFTs dick firmly lodged in their cheek that it's the popularity of Windows that cause it to be exploited. Apache is a web server deployed on way more computers than IIS and it doesn't have a fraction of the exploits that Windows does.
#2) Again, bullshit. People can do graphic design on Windows boxes, as well as video editing and music production. Macs offer no inherent advantage here. Designers have a sense of aesthetics, which is probably why they prefer Macs since Windows PCs and the OS interfaces are fuck-ugly.
#3) More bullshit. Comparably equipped Macs and PCs have similar pricing. Once you ditch the crappy components to build that $400 Dell and put some real software on it that's worth a damn, then an iMac starts to look like a real bargain - especially since you don't have to worry about viruses and spyware.
You're wrong on all three counts, thanks.
#1) Bullshit. MSFT's retarded commitment to backwards-compatibility is the reason their executable is a monolithic buggy POS. The web browser fucking runs as a privileged user! Microsoft's OS design is inherently insecure. If they'd ditch the backwards compatibility (like Apple did), and design a brand new OS from the ground up that is built with security in mind (like Apple did), then they might be able to make the same boast that Apple does about lack of viruses. It's a bullshit piece of "conventional wisdom" that sounds good to people with MSFTs dick firmly lodged in their cheek that it's the popularity of Windows that cause it to be exploited. Apache is a web server deployed on way more computers than IIS and it doesn't have a fraction of the exploits that Windows does.
#2) Again, bullshit. People can do graphic design on Windows boxes, as well as video editing and music production. Macs offer no inherent advantage here. Designers have a sense of aesthetics, which is probably why they prefer Macs since Windows PCs and the OS interfaces are fuck-ugly.
#3) More bullshit. Comparably equipped Macs and PCs have similar pricing. Once you ditch the crappy components to build that $400 Dell and put some real software on it that's worth a damn, then an iMac starts to look like a real bargain - especially since you don't have to worry about viruses and spyware.
114
Help, I'm a crippled OS and I need government largess to break even!
Oh, wait, sorry, Micros0ft's day in the Sun is over.
Oh, wait, sorry, Micros0ft's day in the Sun is over.
115
@112, I am not a fanboi of anything, particularly not computer operating systems. If you had a clue what you were talking about, I'd take your argument apart, but you're obviously hopeless, so I'll leave you be.
@106, that project isn't just a city pipe-dream; it's mandated by HUD. If the city wants to ditch it, they can kiss all their federal dollars goodbye. That's not an option. THIS is how the real world works.
These front ends are "overspecialized" because they have extraordinarily complex requirements developed over a decade of discussion between dozens of city departments, private agencies, the feds, developers, representatives of the homeless themselves, and everybody else in the universe. This isn't the place to go into detail, but integrated data systems between dozens of players is HARD.
You idiots who keep arguing as if it's a question of email clients simply don't know what the game is. It doesn't have fuck-all to do with your piddly little end-user iPhone apps or whatever.
@106, that project isn't just a city pipe-dream; it's mandated by HUD. If the city wants to ditch it, they can kiss all their federal dollars goodbye. That's not an option. THIS is how the real world works.
These front ends are "overspecialized" because they have extraordinarily complex requirements developed over a decade of discussion between dozens of city departments, private agencies, the feds, developers, representatives of the homeless themselves, and everybody else in the universe. This isn't the place to go into detail, but integrated data systems between dozens of players is HARD.
You idiots who keep arguing as if it's a question of email clients simply don't know what the game is. It doesn't have fuck-all to do with your piddly little end-user iPhone apps or whatever.
116
You know what's more boring than listening to geeks evangelize for their favorite platforms? Nothing.
117
Sounds like hadwaving to me, Fnarf. What does Safeharbor even have to do with the mayor's office? What will McGinn be doing with this thing?
It does seem like if you have dozen differnt players that's all the more reason to use a web iterface instead of some specialized application that only runs on Windows, and has to be installed on everybody's box. No wonder IT is crying. Not that they are ever not crying.
It does seem like if you have dozen differnt players that's all the more reason to use a web iterface instead of some specialized application that only runs on Windows, and has to be installed on everybody's box. No wonder IT is crying. Not that they are ever not crying.
118
@116 - lolcats.
No, seriously.
They're more likely to be crying about the wireless traffic on the cells and portables burning thru the networks, actually. Especially from people playing Cafe World during really really boring city council meetings.
No, seriously.
They're more likely to be crying about the wireless traffic on the cells and portables burning thru the networks, actually. Especially from people playing Cafe World during really really boring city council meetings.
119
@Will in Seattle
Do you actually know any recently laid-off City employees? Because I do.
McGinn should be very careful how he decides to spend money. Budgets are being cut, people are losing jobs, a lot of people who haven't lots their jobs are feeling very threatened. His "employees" will not be sympathetic if his spending appears frivolous.
Do you actually know any recently laid-off City employees? Because I do.
McGinn should be very careful how he decides to spend money. Budgets are being cut, people are losing jobs, a lot of people who haven't lots their jobs are feeling very threatened. His "employees" will not be sympathetic if his spending appears frivolous.
120
It's not just how he decides to spend money (which sure counts). It's the general tone deafness that allowed him to even entertain this idea without seeing for the political albatross that it is. Sort of like his ideas about the tunnel.
121
Come on, Fnarf, if you have no intention of taking 112's arguments apart, don't be lame and say you could.
123
#113
Given the amount of slader and profanity your post, I take it you hate Microsoft will all of your black heart.
You should try Windows XP SP3, its really a solid platform, if games are your thing, then try Windows7. Vista was clearly botched from launch and served mostly to help sell Intel CPUs.
". If they'd ditch the backwards compatibility (like Apple did), and design a brand new OS from the ground up that is built with security in mind (like Apple did), then they might be able to make the same boast that Apple does about lack of viruses. "
Apple has done this many times in the past, I think its called Abandonware, usually associated with software, but in this case, can be applied to Apple. They hype of new technology, then completely abandon it a few years later. FireWire is the latest to fit this profile. Hyped up as something that would destroy USB (countless idiots thinking FireWire HDDs would be blazingly faster than the PCs ATA) but ultimately Apple abandoned this and went with USB. Don't expect updates past FireWire 800, unless it comes from Sony, which co-developed this standard with Apple (which they called i.link and everyone else, 1394). Now Apple is abandoning VGA, DVI & HDMI as display standards in favor for DisplayPort, which requires everyone to either buy adapters, monitors and/or switchboxes. Does it exceed PCIe in bandwidth? No. Its just a cooler way to connect everything and do away with USB, which Apple may ultimately drop all support for in a few years.
The last bit of DOS was ditched with Windows2000/XP came out. Everything since then is new code. Got a blue screen with Windows7 trying to install a newly purchased nVidia 9800 GT, but the motherboard bios was badly outdated. Once updated, booted as normal. Aside from that, last time I got a blue screen was 2001.
"Apache is a web server deployed on way more computers than IIS and it doesn't have a fraction of the exploits that Windows does."
If Apache allowed you to surf the web (from an end user POV), capture and edit video, playback mp3s or play advanced video games in SLI configuration, then that comment totally makes sense. But it doesn't, you are comparing apples to oranges. Id wager than Apache has far fewer lines of code than ... lets say WindowsXP SP3. Not saying more is better, but the more you have, the easier it will be to not notice a security hole. And let me remind you, alot of viruses or trojans require the user to perform a function to get infected. Or perhaps the Qwest modem you got still has the default password on it and now your suddenly one of a thousand zombie bots in the state?
"People can do graphic design on Windows boxes, as well as video editing and music production. Macs offer no inherent advantage here. "
Im sorry, but Mac used to have an inherent advantage over Windows. Adobe was basically pushed into focusing on Adobe Premier for Windows when Apple decided to develop Final Cut Pro for Mac. So one major staple of Adobe cash flow, was basically bludgeoned by fanboys.
"#3) More bullshit. Comparably equipped Macs and PCs have similar pricing."
I have been assembling PC/Windows systems since 1992. Right now, there is very little difference between the hardware of a Mac and the hardware of a PC. You can basically buy identical hardware directly from a list of several thousand vendors and dual boot both Win XP & Mac OSX and save 300-400$. When it comes to the mayors office, it wont be hard to get the IT department to just buy the components and assemble them (hire a temp agency if you need to, im sure theres hundreds of temps still on unemployment when Windows7 went RTM months ago). Buy in bulk, save even more. It isn't that hard to install Mac OSX on em.
If the Mayor's office already has perfectly working Windows PC systems set up, then why replace that of which is working when the ENTIRE FUCKING COUNTRY is still dealing with the recession. It only makes sense to replace computers, if most of what they have was made in 1999.
Either you're stupid or you're being an asshole for assholes sake.
More...
Given the amount of slader and profanity your post, I take it you hate Microsoft will all of your black heart.
You should try Windows XP SP3, its really a solid platform, if games are your thing, then try Windows7. Vista was clearly botched from launch and served mostly to help sell Intel CPUs.
". If they'd ditch the backwards compatibility (like Apple did), and design a brand new OS from the ground up that is built with security in mind (like Apple did), then they might be able to make the same boast that Apple does about lack of viruses. "
Apple has done this many times in the past, I think its called Abandonware, usually associated with software, but in this case, can be applied to Apple. They hype of new technology, then completely abandon it a few years later. FireWire is the latest to fit this profile. Hyped up as something that would destroy USB (countless idiots thinking FireWire HDDs would be blazingly faster than the PCs ATA) but ultimately Apple abandoned this and went with USB. Don't expect updates past FireWire 800, unless it comes from Sony, which co-developed this standard with Apple (which they called i.link and everyone else, 1394). Now Apple is abandoning VGA, DVI & HDMI as display standards in favor for DisplayPort, which requires everyone to either buy adapters, monitors and/or switchboxes. Does it exceed PCIe in bandwidth? No. Its just a cooler way to connect everything and do away with USB, which Apple may ultimately drop all support for in a few years.
The last bit of DOS was ditched with Windows2000/XP came out. Everything since then is new code. Got a blue screen with Windows7 trying to install a newly purchased nVidia 9800 GT, but the motherboard bios was badly outdated. Once updated, booted as normal. Aside from that, last time I got a blue screen was 2001.
"Apache is a web server deployed on way more computers than IIS and it doesn't have a fraction of the exploits that Windows does."
If Apache allowed you to surf the web (from an end user POV), capture and edit video, playback mp3s or play advanced video games in SLI configuration, then that comment totally makes sense. But it doesn't, you are comparing apples to oranges. Id wager than Apache has far fewer lines of code than ... lets say WindowsXP SP3. Not saying more is better, but the more you have, the easier it will be to not notice a security hole. And let me remind you, alot of viruses or trojans require the user to perform a function to get infected. Or perhaps the Qwest modem you got still has the default password on it and now your suddenly one of a thousand zombie bots in the state?
"People can do graphic design on Windows boxes, as well as video editing and music production. Macs offer no inherent advantage here. "
Im sorry, but Mac used to have an inherent advantage over Windows. Adobe was basically pushed into focusing on Adobe Premier for Windows when Apple decided to develop Final Cut Pro for Mac. So one major staple of Adobe cash flow, was basically bludgeoned by fanboys.
"#3) More bullshit. Comparably equipped Macs and PCs have similar pricing."
I have been assembling PC/Windows systems since 1992. Right now, there is very little difference between the hardware of a Mac and the hardware of a PC. You can basically buy identical hardware directly from a list of several thousand vendors and dual boot both Win XP & Mac OSX and save 300-400$. When it comes to the mayors office, it wont be hard to get the IT department to just buy the components and assemble them (hire a temp agency if you need to, im sure theres hundreds of temps still on unemployment when Windows7 went RTM months ago). Buy in bulk, save even more. It isn't that hard to install Mac OSX on em.
If the Mayor's office already has perfectly working Windows PC systems set up, then why replace that of which is working when the ENTIRE FUCKING COUNTRY is still dealing with the recession. It only makes sense to replace computers, if most of what they have was made in 1999.
Either you're stupid or you're being an asshole for assholes sake.
124
@113: No, the MacOS and Windows are equally insecure. As are all computer operating systems.
Look... By definition, a successful exploit is one that *isn't detected by the user*. That also means, again by definition, that one can never know to what degree any given OS is successfully exploited. One can only know how many times the bad guys screw up and write exploits so crappy the user figures out they've happened.
This is why computer security -- on *any* platform, Windows, Mac, *NIX, etc. -- is a thankless job. Because you're never able to (truthfully) say your systems haven't been broken into... You can only say you haven't caught anybody recently.
But the, "Macs don't get as many exploits as Windows" argument also has the problem of essentially being a Black Swan argument. As Karl Popper and Nassim Nicholas Taleb have pointed out, no number of white swans can prove black swans don't exist. When you add on top of that the observation that most Mac users don't take security measures many Windows users find routine, and the percentage of Mac systems that are completely configured "out of box" is high so they have less... well, let's call it "genetic diversity" for lack of a better phrase -- that means if any significant openly observable threat *does* come along it's much more likely to take a large swath of Mac systems out than Windows systems. The default factory profile is much more common as a percentage of the installed base.
Basically, you sound like a Native American shaman saying there's no way a huge set of epidemics could ever come along. In 1491.
Look... By definition, a successful exploit is one that *isn't detected by the user*. That also means, again by definition, that one can never know to what degree any given OS is successfully exploited. One can only know how many times the bad guys screw up and write exploits so crappy the user figures out they've happened.
This is why computer security -- on *any* platform, Windows, Mac, *NIX, etc. -- is a thankless job. Because you're never able to (truthfully) say your systems haven't been broken into... You can only say you haven't caught anybody recently.
But the, "Macs don't get as many exploits as Windows" argument also has the problem of essentially being a Black Swan argument. As Karl Popper and Nassim Nicholas Taleb have pointed out, no number of white swans can prove black swans don't exist. When you add on top of that the observation that most Mac users don't take security measures many Windows users find routine, and the percentage of Mac systems that are completely configured "out of box" is high so they have less... well, let's call it "genetic diversity" for lack of a better phrase -- that means if any significant openly observable threat *does* come along it's much more likely to take a large swath of Mac systems out than Windows systems. The default factory profile is much more common as a percentage of the installed base.
Basically, you sound like a Native American shaman saying there's no way a huge set of epidemics could ever come along. In 1491.
125
I understand - you live in Seattle, and can't stand to see your local large employer denigrated, no matter how shitty their products.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPv8PPl7A…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cX4t5-Yp…
Sweet!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPv8PPl7A…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cX4t5-Yp…
Sweet!
126
"...no matter how shitty their products."
Like Dave Winer has said, every company with programmers should have the sign, "We make shitty software!" over the door.
So, yes. Microsoft products are shitty. So are Apple's. So are the ones made through open source. They're all shitty in different ways. And? Next? Is your intent to show how naive and ignorant of the real world you are? Because you're succeeding, if so.
Like Dave Winer has said, every company with programmers should have the sign, "We make shitty software!" over the door.
So, yes. Microsoft products are shitty. So are Apple's. So are the ones made through open source. They're all shitty in different ways. And? Next? Is your intent to show how naive and ignorant of the real world you are? Because you're succeeding, if so.
127
@124
Ebola exists, but I'm not worried about it.
With Windows, you have to install a virus and spyware scanner, and you have to allocate time to weekly scans, and you have to run it. You have to keep your virus definitions up to date, and you have to cross your fingers and pray you're ahead of the ratrace every time you open a file, even from someone you trust.
With an operating system that does not have 90% market share, you have no need for any of that investment.
This monoculture does not have to exist. The worldwide banana monoculture of United Fruit was wiped out in the 20s because they put all their eggs in one basket. Today the successor of United Fruit, Dole, is having their new worldwide monoculture of bananas wiped out by a new virus because they made the same mistake again. Lots of monoculture have been decimated by the spread of disease while diverse populations survive. It works about the same with biology and with computers.
Microsoft could have choosen to have a range of OSes with different codebases and different exploits, drastically hobbling the spread of viruses, but that would have cost them money. But that's Microsoft's problem; I have a choice to not worry about viruses by using a Mac or Lunix. Simple.
Ebola exists, but I'm not worried about it.
With Windows, you have to install a virus and spyware scanner, and you have to allocate time to weekly scans, and you have to run it. You have to keep your virus definitions up to date, and you have to cross your fingers and pray you're ahead of the ratrace every time you open a file, even from someone you trust.
With an operating system that does not have 90% market share, you have no need for any of that investment.
This monoculture does not have to exist. The worldwide banana monoculture of United Fruit was wiped out in the 20s because they put all their eggs in one basket. Today the successor of United Fruit, Dole, is having their new worldwide monoculture of bananas wiped out by a new virus because they made the same mistake again. Lots of monoculture have been decimated by the spread of disease while diverse populations survive. It works about the same with biology and with computers.
Microsoft could have choosen to have a range of OSes with different codebases and different exploits, drastically hobbling the spread of viruses, but that would have cost them money. But that's Microsoft's problem; I have a choice to not worry about viruses by using a Mac or Lunix. Simple.
128
"I have a choice to not worry about viruses by using a Mac or Lunix."
And the hackers who may be exploiting you even as we speak thank you for it.
And the hackers who may be exploiting you even as we speak thank you for it.
129
Um, Elenchos, there are fewer viruses for Macs (not none, fewer) because virus writers are attention whores and Windows offers more publicity. There is no such thing as a unbeatable OS. Apples had viruses before PCs did.
If you don't have to worry about viruses on a Mac, then how do Mac anti-virus vendors stay in business?
I keep my PCs virus free by exercising a modicum of sense about opening attachments. Works like a charm.
If you don't have to worry about viruses on a Mac, then how do Mac anti-virus vendors stay in business?
I keep my PCs virus free by exercising a modicum of sense about opening attachments. Works like a charm.
130
Um, Elenchos, there are fewer viruses for Macs (not none, fewer) because virus writers are attention whores and Windows offers more publicity. There is no such thing as a unbeatable OS. Apples had viruses before PCs did.
If you don't have to worry about viruses on a Mac, then how do Mac anti-virus vendors stay in business?
I keep my PCs virus free by exercising a modicum of sense about opening attachments. Works like a charm.
If you don't have to worry about viruses on a Mac, then how do Mac anti-virus vendors stay in business?
I keep my PCs virus free by exercising a modicum of sense about opening attachments. Works like a charm.
131
Um, Elenchos, there are fewer viruses for Macs (not none, fewer) because virus writers are attention whores and Windows offers more publicity. There is no such thing as a unbeatable OS. Apples had viruses before PCs did.
If you don't have to worry about viruses on a Mac, then how do Mac anti-virus vendors stay in business?
I keep my PCs virus free by exercising a modicum of sense about opening attachments. Works like a charm.
If you don't have to worry about viruses on a Mac, then how do Mac anti-virus vendors stay in business?
I keep my PCs virus free by exercising a modicum of sense about opening attachments. Works like a charm.
132
Um, guy who posts three times...
Ebola exists. Rare viruses exist on the Mac (so I've heard, I guess it's probably be true...). We're clear on that.
The point is, if you were to go spend the money on antivirus software for your Mac (or Linux PC) and run it, you won't find anything except Windows viruses that are harmless to you. Some Mac users scan for Windows viruses so they won't get (unfairly) blamed if they pass on a file they were given by one Windows user to another Windows user.
"But if you don’t run Windows and you don’t mind passing along virus-laden e-mail attachments to your Windows friends, you don’t need either one."
The other reason vendors sell virus scanners for Macs? Profit. Selling people things they don't need is the American way, after all. And if anybody is willing to spend money on things they don't need, it's Mac users.
Have you ever met a Mac user whose computer got infected? Have you ever met a Windows users who has never been infected? It's sad, but that's Microsoft's problem, and I don't have time to dick around scanning for viruses and spyware and all that other nonsense.
Some day the Linux or OS X market share could rise to the point that viruses are an issue, but I'm not losing sleep over it.
Ebola exists. Rare viruses exist on the Mac (so I've heard, I guess it's probably be true...). We're clear on that.
The point is, if you were to go spend the money on antivirus software for your Mac (or Linux PC) and run it, you won't find anything except Windows viruses that are harmless to you. Some Mac users scan for Windows viruses so they won't get (unfairly) blamed if they pass on a file they were given by one Windows user to another Windows user.
"But if you don’t run Windows and you don’t mind passing along virus-laden e-mail attachments to your Windows friends, you don’t need either one."
The other reason vendors sell virus scanners for Macs? Profit. Selling people things they don't need is the American way, after all. And if anybody is willing to spend money on things they don't need, it's Mac users.
Have you ever met a Mac user whose computer got infected? Have you ever met a Windows users who has never been infected? It's sad, but that's Microsoft's problem, and I don't have time to dick around scanning for viruses and spyware and all that other nonsense.
Some day the Linux or OS X market share could rise to the point that viruses are an issue, but I'm not losing sleep over it.
133
Laszlo Toth, Jr., yes hordes of evil ninja hackers might be after me as we speak. It could happen, as they say on Fox News. Is that a reason for me to run out and waste money on antivirus software? No.
Do you know one single Mac or Lunix user whose computer was taken over by mad hackers bent on world domination? No. And that's why it's a stupid thing to worry about.
Do you know one single Mac or Lunix user whose computer was taken over by mad hackers bent on world domination? No. And that's why it's a stupid thing to worry about.
134
You know, at the end of the day, you can whine about computers and how Mayor McGinn is choosing less expensive cell/etc technology that works.
Or ... you can come to the McGinn Victory Party this Friday. It's open to all. If you're on FB just check the events I'm going to - yes, all ages, yes, along light rail line.
Complain here - or go to a party on Friday and you can say it in person and get a real answer.
Me, I'm going to party like it's 2009!
Or ... you can come to the McGinn Victory Party this Friday. It's open to all. If you're on FB just check the events I'm going to - yes, all ages, yes, along light rail line.
Complain here - or go to a party on Friday and you can say it in person and get a real answer.
Me, I'm going to party like it's 2009!
136
@133, I know plenty of Mac and Linux users who have fallen for phishing schemes. Stupid ones from Myspace, and serious ones for their bank account. Fraud is moving to the web no matter what your OS. The biggest security threat announced last week was Adobe, because Flash is broken in a way that can't be fixed, and will allow code to run native in the local environment from the native filesystem. You aren't safe on Mac or Linux, Flash is cross-platform. The exploiter just puts as many platform binaries in the Flash package as the number of platforms it wants to target. And yes, Linux is a huge target, because lots of them are servers, and servers are valuable launching sites.
And no, I never think about anti-virus on my Windows machine. My AV runs in the background, updates in the background, and scans in the background. The problem becomes, "don't be an idiot"
Whoever above said that IE is a monolithic binary that always runs in the local environment? You are dumb and that is why nobody responded to you. 1997 called, and your ITT technical skills are out of date.
And no, I never think about anti-virus on my Windows machine. My AV runs in the background, updates in the background, and scans in the background. The problem becomes, "don't be an idiot"
Whoever above said that IE is a monolithic binary that always runs in the local environment? You are dumb and that is why nobody responded to you. 1997 called, and your ITT technical skills are out of date.
137
SchmuckyTheCat, what is the relevance of falling for phishing schemes? Nobody said non-windows OSes would solve every problem in your life. Are you trying to burn a straw man or something?
If buying antivirus, installing it, keeping it up to date, and having your machine run slowly whenever it scans makes you happy, then enjoy your Windows.
A lot of people believe that doing all of that crap proves how smart they are. Or they think having to stop and decide whether or not they should open an email attachment or delete it proves they're not a dummy. That's great. If you think I'm a dummy because I don't have to think about stuff like that, so be it. Windows was made for you and I'm sure you'll be very happy together.
But I can understand why McGinn and his team would rather put their energies into solving more important problems.
If buying antivirus, installing it, keeping it up to date, and having your machine run slowly whenever it scans makes you happy, then enjoy your Windows.
A lot of people believe that doing all of that crap proves how smart they are. Or they think having to stop and decide whether or not they should open an email attachment or delete it proves they're not a dummy. That's great. If you think I'm a dummy because I don't have to think about stuff like that, so be it. Windows was made for you and I'm sure you'll be very happy together.
But I can understand why McGinn and his team would rather put their energies into solving more important problems.
138
I'd love to see just one of all these myriad viruses that Windows users swear exist for the Mac, especially the supar sekrit invisible ones that Laszlo is hallucinating about.
139
@138,
I haven't registered here yet, so I can't post any links, but this was a major one, and there are more out there like this. Just google the NYT article, "Mac Security III: The Rise of the Botnets", and that will give you an example of one of the more recent malicious mac trojans. Also just do a GIS for "macs" and "trojans" and you'll find plenty of examples. Technically trojans aren't viruses, but they seem to be causing the most critical problems for both operating systems these days.
I haven't registered here yet, so I can't post any links, but this was a major one, and there are more out there like this. Just google the NYT article, "Mac Security III: The Rise of the Botnets", and that will give you an example of one of the more recent malicious mac trojans. Also just do a GIS for "macs" and "trojans" and you'll find plenty of examples. Technically trojans aren't viruses, but they seem to be causing the most critical problems for both operating systems these days.
140
@139, meh. You have to download and install freakin' pirated app software. Since OSX *is* a secure operating system, you do have to authenticate to run those installers. With Windows there are viruses that require you to do nothing at all to get infected. When something like that happens for OSX, then I'll consider the two comparable.
The fact is, the only people insisting the two are equally insecure are always Windows users, and it's usually because they're as insecure as their OS of choice.
The fact is, the only people insisting the two are equally insecure are always Windows users, and it's usually because they're as insecure as their OS of choice.
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