Thursday, November 12, 2009
Health / Politics / Sex What She Said: Digby on Viagra
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:48 AM
No boners for old men:
I have a moral objection to paying for any kind of erectile dysfunction medicine in the new health reform bill and I think men who want to use it should just pay for it out of pocket. After all, I won't ever need such a pill. And anyway, it's no biggie. Just because most of them can get it under their insurance today doesn't mean they shouldn't have it stripped from their coverage in the future because of my moral objections. (I don't think there's even been a Supreme Court ruling making wood a constitutional right. I might be wrong about that.)Many of the men who are prescribed this medication are on Medicare, so I think it should be stripped out of that coverage as well. And unlike the payments for abortion, which actually lower overall medical costs (pregnancy obviously costs much, much more) banning tax dollars from covering any kind of Viagra would result in a substantial savings.... I realize that many people disagree with my moral objections to men getting erections which God clearly doesn't want them to get, but my principles on this are more important to me than theirs are to them. So too bad. If you want a boner, pay for it yourself.
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1
Hate to break it to you, but insurance doesn't cover Viagra.
...not that I would know anything about that.
...not that I would know anything about that.
3
@1, yours might not cover it. But there are plenty out there that do.
Not that I would know anything about that either.
Not that I would know anything about that either.
4
Yes, @1, some insurance does cover viagra. And I object to this article on grounds that the correct term is "hardon".
5
I always considered women to be the primary beneficiaries of Viagra, albeit indirectly. I guess her point is that only men enjoy straight sex?
Anyway, Viagra isn't just for old men - it's for anyone who wants to fuck like a porn star.
Anyway, Viagra isn't just for old men - it's for anyone who wants to fuck like a porn star.
6
Pretty disgusting that the health reform bill allows coverage for Viagra and not for abortions. Why are old guys so lame?
7
Moral objections aside, a very sound argument is being made, it is a waste of tax dollars, none should be going into something like this when it could go to real medical conditions and to expand more care. If grandpa wants to get a boner to feel rejuvenated it should come out of his own pocket.
9
Yeah i agree with 5. Straight women definitely do benefit. So what's gonna happen when we are all 70 and still horny and our mens can't get it up any more? We're gonna send em straight to doc to get Viagra, that's what.
I guess gay men are potential beneficiaries too (suck on that, Republicans - by keeping Viagra in, you are funding old gay sex). I can definitely see how a lesbian might not want to foot the bill though.
That said, I want abortion to be funded. But if abortion aint funded in the bill, then get Viagra the hell out of there.
I guess gay men are potential beneficiaries too (suck on that, Republicans - by keeping Viagra in, you are funding old gay sex). I can definitely see how a lesbian might not want to foot the bill though.
That said, I want abortion to be funded. But if abortion aint funded in the bill, then get Viagra the hell out of there.
12
covering or not covering erectile dysfunction medication alone is not the problem. the real issue is that it is covered by many who do not cover birth control.
let's step back and realize for a moment that birth control isn't always used to control birth. it is used for a host of medical problems in women- including completely intolerable and long-lived cramps, endometriosis, and the like. they can also actually be enough to be denied coverage all together. why are women left out of health care concerns? i'm just saying- let's play on a level field.
let's step back and realize for a moment that birth control isn't always used to control birth. it is used for a host of medical problems in women- including completely intolerable and long-lived cramps, endometriosis, and the like. they can also actually be enough to be denied coverage all together. why are women left out of health care concerns? i'm just saying- let's play on a level field.
13
If the government can fund senior centers for old folks to play card cames in, why not boner pills while they're at it? If seniors stay busy fucking each other they're more likely to stay healthier and support each other and be less of a drain on social services. Of course, it's not just old men who get ED. Men of all ages (and the women and/or men who love them) deserve boners.
14
I kind of have to agree, it's better for nonessential luxuries to be paid out of pocket. When medicare doesn't cover things like birth control and dare I say, unwanted pregnancy the whole world has to suffer.
Besides, the actual COST of Viagra will be minimal once the patent, research, and marketing fees are paid off. Hell, there was no research for erectile disfunction anyways. Most of greatest discoveries were made serendipitously. In the case of Viagra, looking for ways to get better blood circulation for older people.
(and seriously ... doesn't Viagra market itself?)
Anyways, I'm off to see the recruiter doing what perhaps "god" intended for me. Work like a slave and come up with more chemical products so the rest of the world can fuck wrecklessly and MAYBE not burn through our natural resources.
Take the Loveschild.
Besides, the actual COST of Viagra will be minimal once the patent, research, and marketing fees are paid off. Hell, there was no research for erectile disfunction anyways. Most of greatest discoveries were made serendipitously. In the case of Viagra, looking for ways to get better blood circulation for older people.
(and seriously ... doesn't Viagra market itself?)
Anyways, I'm off to see the recruiter doing what perhaps "god" intended for me. Work like a slave and come up with more chemical products so the rest of the world can fuck wrecklessly and MAYBE not burn through our natural resources.
Take the Loveschild.
17
It was my understanding that insurance should cover medicines that correct something that is medically disfunctional. Viagra does exactly that. Sorry grandpa, no nitro-glycerine pills for you, you should just calm the fuck down on your own. As to the poit of why women should pay premiums for insurance that covers viagra when women clearly won't need it, how about birth control pills, mammograms, gynocological visits and a whole host of stuff covering lady-bits that I'll never need?
18
@17: Birth control wasn't covered by most insurance plans until Viagra came onto the market and automatically was. The gross injustice of covering Viagra and not covering contraception forced many insurance companies to change their rules.
19
Boner pills are about to get *much* cheaper. The global patents for Viagra expire between 2011 to 2013, depending upon where in the world you live.
The initial pricing was based on a movie for two in Manhattan. (I.e. about two hours of entertainment for a couple...)
The initial pricing was based on a movie for two in Manhattan. (I.e. about two hours of entertainment for a couple...)
21
I guess I reject this whole "boys against girls" style of argument that's so popular among right wingers and feminists, even if I agree with Digby (and even if she's just employing this as a rhetorical device).
As a straight guy and father of a girl, I have an enormous interest in the availability of birth control pills and abortions. There is more at stake here for me than there is for most lesbians, given that the risk of accidental lesbian pregnancy is pretty small. And I'd like to think that some woman out there might have at least a passing interest in the firmness of my cock.
As a straight guy and father of a girl, I have an enormous interest in the availability of birth control pills and abortions. There is more at stake here for me than there is for most lesbians, given that the risk of accidental lesbian pregnancy is pretty small. And I'd like to think that some woman out there might have at least a passing interest in the firmness of my cock.
22
What always amazes me about medical research is this strange assumption that men are ALWAYS the greatest beneficiaries of most of the money for medical research.
I'm not finding that to be the case. I mean, take your mammogram. The doctor parks a woman up to this very big and expensive piece of equipment, while the proctologist, using only his finger .... determines what the deal is with your prostate.
Not to mention the hormone cocktails we give women for birth control, menopause,
And for the record, I feel that covering all these costs is a good thing.
I'm not finding that to be the case. I mean, take your mammogram. The doctor parks a woman up to this very big and expensive piece of equipment, while the proctologist, using only his finger .... determines what the deal is with your prostate.
Not to mention the hormone cocktails we give women for birth control, menopause,
And for the record, I feel that covering all these costs is a good thing.
24
@5: "I always considered women to be the primary beneficiaries of Viagra, albeit indirectly. I guess her point is that only men enjoy straight sex?"
"Indirectly"? Having a cock in you is, I gotta say, as direct as it gets.
Hey, as a straight woman, I'm happy to say I enjoy sex with my boyfriend.
But saying that Viagra is beneficial for *women* because they get to keep enjoying the privilege of your *giant throbbing cock* is kind of ... douchey? You can drop the humanitarian front and enjoy the sex, gentlemen. I'll figure out whether I'm a "primary beneficiary" or not of your actions.
But I gotta say that I like the jingoistic implications. Possible t-shirt: "Having sex with women -- I'm doing it for the ladies!"
"Indirectly"? Having a cock in you is, I gotta say, as direct as it gets.
Hey, as a straight woman, I'm happy to say I enjoy sex with my boyfriend.
But saying that Viagra is beneficial for *women* because they get to keep enjoying the privilege of your *giant throbbing cock* is kind of ... douchey? You can drop the humanitarian front and enjoy the sex, gentlemen. I'll figure out whether I'm a "primary beneficiary" or not of your actions.
But I gotta say that I like the jingoistic implications. Possible t-shirt: "Having sex with women -- I'm doing it for the ladies!"
25
Viagra, to some extent, is a luxury item, and should be treated as such... It shouldn't be covered.
26
No insurance for boner pills and no insurance for fertility treatments either. Things I don't want tax dollars paying for....
1. Stupid, unending wars
2. Rush Limbaugh's stiffie
3. Nadya Suleman's Crazy
1. Stupid, unending wars
2. Rush Limbaugh's stiffie
3. Nadya Suleman's Crazy
27
All I ever got out of Viagra (and Levitra) was a headache and a stuffy nose. A very expensive headache and stuffy nose I might add. And yeah, there are a lot more important things in the world than a boner. It shouldn't be covered. It's just not necessary.
28
If we didn't have government health-care, we wouldn't have to have political debates about what should and shouldn't be covered. Want X covered? Buy a plan than covers X. Don't care about X? Look for a cheaper plan that doesn't cover it.
29
When I was 20, dating a guy the same age as me, we were both virgins, decided to get it on. Well... He couldn't. Not for lack of trying. We tried everything we could think of for three months. Then he somehow got a doctor to prescribe him viagra. Then we had sex.
Not everyone who needs viagra is an old man. Absolutely insurance should cover viagra. Obviously some people are going to use it more than they need to (including when they don't need to) but so it goes for all drugs.
Not everyone who needs viagra is an old man. Absolutely insurance should cover viagra. Obviously some people are going to use it more than they need to (including when they don't need to) but so it goes for all drugs.
30
@21 I'm not aware of any feminists who advocate boy vs. girl arguments unless it's used as a way to point out undeserved privilege (which covering viagra, but not bc is)
31
Also, an man who gets Viagra should be married and have the permission of his wife to get it. We don't want old men using Viagra to go hike the Appalachian Trail. They can only use it with their wives, as God intended.
32
@26. Oral contraceptives aren't just fertility treatments - they have been recommended to help prevent ovarian cancer. If only they had decided to market it that way initially - as an "anti-cancer pill" - instead of as "birth control" ...
33
I say free boners for all. I'm hittin' the streets!
@24
You may think it's kinda "douchey" but the fact is, it's also kinda true. You can save the femni-nazi shit, k? Very tiresome. Oh, and "jingoistic" doesn't mean what you think it means, but good try.
@24
You may think it's kinda "douchey" but the fact is, it's also kinda true. You can save the femni-nazi shit, k? Very tiresome. Oh, and "jingoistic" doesn't mean what you think it means, but good try.
34
Um, guys...I think this is tongue-in-cheek. Like, a reversal of the arguments used to deny birth control coverage.
37
And how would a woman benefit from that exactly? I know you guys think that we want a guy that lasts, but for four hours? Do you have any idea how painful that gets for us?
No sane woman wants to fuck like a porn star. Those women suffer excruciating pain on a regular basis.
Anyway, Viagra isn't just for old men - it's for anyone who wants to fuck like a porn star.
And how would a woman benefit from that exactly? I know you guys think that we want a guy that lasts, but for four hours? Do you have any idea how painful that gets for us?
No sane woman wants to fuck like a porn star. Those women suffer excruciating pain on a regular basis.
39
It makes sense for Medicare to not cover birth control pills, since the primary use for them is to prevent contraception, and the vast majority of women on Medicare are post-menopausal. The issue was that OTHER insurance carriers did not cover birth control pills but covered Viagra, et al.
@22, it's pretty common knowledge that medical research is just starting to come around and realize that women aren't just smaller men. For example, our heart attack symptoms are often completely different from males' symptoms. Geez, if they had included women in their research 3 or 4 decades ago, they might have figured that out.
And it's worth it to work on breast cancer so they can save the ta-tas the guys love, right????
@22, it's pretty common knowledge that medical research is just starting to come around and realize that women aren't just smaller men. For example, our heart attack symptoms are often completely different from males' symptoms. Geez, if they had included women in their research 3 or 4 decades ago, they might have figured that out.
And it's worth it to work on breast cancer so they can save the ta-tas the guys love, right????
40
@35/38
One mis-spelled word and that's all you've got as a comeback?? Yikes. Whatever makes you feel better. Lemme guess - yer feminists?? Preach to us, will you? It will be funny.
One mis-spelled word and that's all you've got as a comeback?? Yikes. Whatever makes you feel better. Lemme guess - yer feminists?? Preach to us, will you? It will be funny.
41
#37, I don't think "fuck like a porn star" is supposed to imply that you're having sex for 4 hours.
I've never really seen a porn scene last longer than 30 minutes.
I've never really seen a porn scene last longer than 30 minutes.
43
@1 is very very very wrong.
Sometimes the insurer wants you to switch to Cialis instead of Viagra though.
But if they're not going to included contraception and abortions for women, they should definitely remove Viagra or Cialis or any of the other ones.
Sometimes the insurer wants you to switch to Cialis instead of Viagra though.
But if they're not going to included contraception and abortions for women, they should definitely remove Viagra or Cialis or any of the other ones.
44
Actually I agree with her, it is unfair to pay for men to have erections (which can cause pregnancy) and not for women to have abortions. And under my private healthcare plan, Viagra is covered, but normal birth control pills are not. And honestly, yeah, when you're dick can no longer work because you're old, it's probably the way it is supposed to be.
45
The VA covers Viagra. In fact, my Dr. suggested it when I hinted that I was "throatclear" challenged. I agree with Digby. Less Viagra=less wood=less unwanted pregnancy, (esp by old fucks like me). therefore less need for abortion. Win-Win.
PS. I like cock but I think the logic still works.
PS. I like cock but I think the logic still works.
47
#44, I would guess that the vast majority of Viagra users aren't actually "old". ED isn't menopause. It's not the way it's "supposed to be", that's why it's called erectile dysfunction.
The most apt corollary I can think of would be a young, healthy female that is unable to produce natural lubrication when aroused. Assuming there is a drug that helps with that (incedentally, Viagra can help with that), ask yourself if that should be covered by insurance.
The most apt corollary I can think of would be a young, healthy female that is unable to produce natural lubrication when aroused. Assuming there is a drug that helps with that (incedentally, Viagra can help with that), ask yourself if that should be covered by insurance.
48
Uh oh, them womens is getting uppity again..... you should put them back in their places with your giant throbbing cock, right, Confluence?
49
@24- "douchey"? Listen, if you'd had the pleasure of interfacing with my genitalia, you'd understand the loss to humanity that it's failure to function would entail. It would be a crime for me not to have Viagra.
Not that it ever fails to function. No sir, not ever.
Not that it ever fails to function. No sir, not ever.
51
Depression brought on by reproductive dysfunction is a major issue for both genders, but nobody wants to talk about it because we're all stuck on the idea of boners. There's also the issue of inadequate bloodflow in certain bodily tissues, which is a health risk all its own.
In fact, it used to be that a lot of men would not take certain classes of anti-depressant because of the chemically-induced reproductive dysfunction. The advent of Viagra and similar drugs has done a lot of good in that arena.
But tee-hee Bob Dole.
In fact, it used to be that a lot of men would not take certain classes of anti-depressant because of the chemically-induced reproductive dysfunction. The advent of Viagra and similar drugs has done a lot of good in that arena.
But tee-hee Bob Dole.
53
@33/35/38/Conf...seriously, though, the word 'feminist' has now become this knee-jerk term that everyone has a gut reaction to. Many people now take the definition to mean 'irrational man-hater' even though that's an irrational, inflated association. This is partially because there are a some prominent 'feminists' out there that do take a boys vs. girls approach to everything...and say that girls are always better/in the right. Blanket misandry is just as wrong as blatant misogyny....but how can we untie misandry from the term 'feminism' in people's minds? Coin a new term?
55
@33: Okaaaay. I was, uh, as people say, being light-hearted while making a point. I think the slogan I proposed at the end, and the fact I used "douche" as an insult (isn't that sexist?! Or something), were two big, throbbing clues.
And I admit I used "jingoistic" pretty loosely. Lazy, illiterate feminazis, 0, douches, 1.
And I admit I used "jingoistic" pretty loosely. Lazy, illiterate feminazis, 0, douches, 1.
56
@40: Also, clue: Their objections were not because of "spelling." I guess that says a lot though.
57
Oh, and while I'm still there, can we retire "feminazi"? At least until feminists start rounding up men and gassing them? It was kind of funny at first, sort of like in the vein of "grammar nazi," but now people just use it as a slur and it's tired. Put it to a vote, shall we?
58
@57, I rate "feminazi" up there with "Obamacare" in terms of what it says about the intelligence of the person using it. So it's handy that way.
59
@40 Yeah, feminism is funny! And I'm going to exercise my male privilege and ignore you when you when you are insulted by the insinuation that women benefit by male pleasure and they should support gender inequality because of it! WOO.
60
@57 I wish we could retire the word "Nazi" from everything that doesn't have to do with 1930s-1940s National Socialism. I know that makes me a stick in the mud who can't appreciate an "innocent" joke, but losing the entire Polish branch of your family can make you a little sensitive about some things. Using "Nazi" as a cheap shot against those you disagree with isn't just weak argumentative style, in my book; it's dishonoring the dead (homosexuals, communists, Romany, Poles, etc. as well as Jews).
61
The planet's population is exploding and we now have a garbage dump in the Pacific the size of Texas and growing. Some of us are a bit concerned about that and our concerns are more important than those who object to abortion. We are talking all life is in peril, not just the lives of human embryo's. So the feds should not force us to support boners for old guys or any guy for that manner when they are not going to fund birth-control and abortion is birth-control. Like it, or not.
62
#17 - It is natural for men to lose the ability to get erections as they age just like it is natural for women to go through menopause. Old men should not be reproducing for a variety of reasons and when they start to lose the ability to have sex it should not be regarded as a health issue. It should be regarded as male menopause. When erectile dysfunction affects younger men it is a valid medical issue, however, if we are all going to pay for it we should also pay for birth-control. If we are going to pay for fertility we should pay to reduce unwanted pregnancy.
63
Insurance does not pay for fertility treatments. I have thousands of dollars in paid bills (but no baby) to prove it. That is what is so frustrating for women. If a man has a penis that doesn't work- call in the cavalry with the best big pharma has to offer, while instantly covering it by most major medical plans. However, if a woman has fertility issues, that is a luxury elective procedure and requires out of pocket payment. On the flip side- if you are fertile and don't want to be, that is a luxury elective also. Then, if you get pregnant and don't want to be- again, elective procedure and pay out of pocket. Exactly what do they cover!
Women are literally damned if we breed and damned if we don't.
Yes, the person made a mistake and typed Medicare, when they meant Medicaid. Men have many procedures that are male specific- prostate exams, PSAs, testicular cancer, epispandiasis including sex linked genetic disorders that males get like Duchennes MD and Hemophilia.
The point women are making is that they should either be all in or all out. We just find it annoying that our "girl bits" get excluded while no one ever thinks to objecting to coverage for the "boy bits".
Women are literally damned if we breed and damned if we don't.
Yes, the person made a mistake and typed Medicare, when they meant Medicaid. Men have many procedures that are male specific- prostate exams, PSAs, testicular cancer, epispandiasis including sex linked genetic disorders that males get like Duchennes MD and Hemophilia.
The point women are making is that they should either be all in or all out. We just find it annoying that our "girl bits" get excluded while no one ever thinks to objecting to coverage for the "boy bits".
64
@63: There's a difference between fertility and basic physical function. A man might be able to get it up with Viagra, but if his sperm is no good, he's no more fertile than he was before. An infertile woman can still have sex.
65
Medicare covers birth control. No, seriously, it does. Not everyone on Medicare is elderly. Some are disabled, physically or mentally, but are still capable of having sex.
Medicaid is run by the states, so formularies and coverage differ, but some states do cover birth control. In DC, not only is birth control covered for people on medicaid, you get the birth control for *free*.
Medicaid is run by the states, so formularies and coverage differ, but some states do cover birth control. In DC, not only is birth control covered for people on medicaid, you get the birth control for *free*.
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