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Thursday, November 12, 2009

SL Letter of the Day: An Honest Divorce Isn't Always The Answer

Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:19 PM

I should tell you right away that I am a big fan of your column. I write this now only because you have raised my standards through years of entertaining, informative and honest answers: your advice to HORNYO this week was weak.

Wouldn't you think that HORNYO, after 19 years of marriage, has already made "a good-faith effort to undo the damage and, perhaps, restore the sexual aspect of [his] marriage" before thinking to blow his head off? He must have. You are avoiding the question: the man is asking your permission to deceive his wife and have sex with others. And you give him your permission. And that's fine. It's a moral judgment call and people trust your judgment. But you could have advised the man better by explicitly pointing out the deception and the trade-off he makes: he's trading away an honest relationship for an active sex.

Incidentally, why do you frequently recommend that people in an non-abusive but sex-deprived marriages deceive each other and look for sex elsewhere? Wouldn't it be better if they split up? Where are abusive relationships are concerned you recommend that people DTMFA. Why not in cases like HORNYO's? Why advise people to live with hypocrisy? Are kids or a nice shared house a good reason? This is an honest question.

Keep Exploring Emotional Problems, Inspired Therefore Unashamed Pundit

My response after the jump...

Space limitations prevent me from tagging every base in every response, KEEPITUP. (I hope you didn't strain something reaching for that acronym.) If I didn't have to keep things at-or-under word count for the print edition of the column—I'm allotted 1250 words—perhaps I could've made it clear that I assumed HORNYO had already made a good-faith effort, perhaps several, "to undo the damage and, perhaps, restore the sexual aspect of [his] marriage." Indeed, someone doesn't typically contemplate suicide, or send me a letter, without first exhausting all other possible solutions, including those good-faith efforts.

Now let's talk about your assumption: you assume that HORNYO and Mrs. HORNYO, 19 years into a sexless marriage, have an "honest relationship." Have you ever talked with anyone in a sexless marriage? Odds are better that Mr. and Mrs. HORNYO's sexless em>19-year-old marriage long ago passed through all four stages of Marital Sexlessness: dysfunction, despair, deception, and finally dishonesty. I doubt that an "honest relationship," at least where their sex life is concerned, exists to be sacrificed.

Would it be better if Mr. and Mrs. HORNYO split up? Yes, KEEPITUP, if their marriage creates nothing but misery for both of them and if untangling themselves creates more good for both than harm. But if, on the other hand, they're good partners and good parents and otherwise content with each other, KEEPITUP, it might make more sense for Mr. HORNYO to do what he must in order to stay married to Mrs. HORNYO without blowing his brains out. And how would you feel about Mr. HORNYO leaving Mrs. HORNYO over sex if it turned out that, say, Mrs. HONRYO had a chronic medical condition that drained her of all sexual desire and that she was entirely reliant on Mr. HORNYO for health insurance and an income?

It's easy to say that people should never cheat and that husbands should always be honest with their wives and vice-versa and that infidelity is always wrong and blah blah blah. But long-term relationships develop fissures and cracks over the years and decades; sometimes contingencies have to be made, sometimes allowances have to be made, and sometimes we have to adjust our expectations when circumstances change. And we have to recognize that some problems can't be solved and that some solutions—particularly divorce—create more problems, and bigger problems, than the simpleminded and idealistic and honesty fetishists seem to realize.

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Comments (25) RSS

Oldest First Unregistered On Registered On Add a comment
danindowntown 1
Honesty fetishist, I like that.
Posted by danindowntown on November 12, 2009 at 2:25 PM
tdalec 2
Thankfully, in 42 years together, we have never had that problem. I can't empathize with either party.
Posted by tdalec on November 12, 2009 at 2:31 PM
Will in Seattle 3
Do they still have kids?

If any kids are grown up then why stay married?
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on November 12, 2009 at 2:41 PM
4
There were places and times where wives expected their husbands to keep mistresses so as to take some or all the burden of unwanted sex from them. There was some wisdom in that.
Posted by Vince on November 12, 2009 at 2:48 PM
5
This writer seems to think that you can get a divorce as easily as you can hop to the corner store to get milk, and with as few ramifications. Divorces are always painful and messy, especially when there are kids involved.
Posted by lymerae on November 12, 2009 at 2:49 PM
kim in portland 6
Spot on, Dan. It is impossible to know a situation without walking in it. There is more to LTRs than just sex.
Posted by kim in portland http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPpCxY05dqs on November 12, 2009 at 2:52 PM
7
If I recall correctly, studies indicate staying together because of the kids doesn't actually do them any favors.

However, it seems more than a little simplistic and out of keeping with the practice and history of the institution of marriage, to reduce the arrangement down to a simple sexual pact.

Just because they are not now sexually compatible is no reason to believe that either of both of them are not staying together for each other.
Posted by She's not just there to put it in and pull kids out on November 12, 2009 at 2:53 PM
8
@4) Our father's wives expected to catch the husband in adultery, sue for divorce and then live off the alimony. No fault divorce but the breaks on that a bit at least.
Posted by AUTOMA on November 12, 2009 at 2:54 PM
9
To answer her last question "Are kids or a nice shared house a good reason?", yes, kids are the best reason. If the couple are good parents and provide a stable home life, divorce would be much more damaging to any children they have than Dad going out and cheating on Mom, as long as he's discreet. If there are other problems in the marriage which are making home life unbearable for everyone, then it's a DTMFA situation, but if this is the only thing wrong with the family life, cheating, without getting caught, is the best thing he can do for his children.
Posted by SolCat on November 12, 2009 at 3:01 PM
Sargon Bighorn 10
God intended them to stay together and they took vows stating they would remain together until such time as Mars collides with an outer ring of Saturn (It's one of God's little known rules of marriage, beware Gay folk). Nothing is worse than deceit, except maybe the underdone middle of a loaf of bread. It's great when couples can talk about sex openly and without complexes. Sex is so powerful, it's a wonder there is not training in high school like there is for driving.
Posted by Sargon Bighorn on November 12, 2009 at 3:52 PM
Will in Seattle 11
@9 - it's one thing if there are kids.
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on November 12, 2009 at 3:59 PM
12
You're the boss, Dan. You can make the SL word limit any damn thing you like.
Posted by Chris in Vancouver WA on November 12, 2009 at 4:06 PM
seandr 13
Illicit affairs are normal and natural in heterosexual relationships.
Posted by seandr on November 12, 2009 at 4:48 PM
14
@12-- If Savage Love is being printed in physical format (places other than the internet), he has to conform to the limits placed on him by the limited page space of said physical format.
Posted by MythicFox on November 12, 2009 at 5:07 PM
15
It's easy to say because it's true.
Posted by Deal with It on November 12, 2009 at 5:21 PM
curtisp 16
"There were places and times where wives expected their husbands to keep mistresses so as to take some or all the burden of unwanted sex from them. There was some wisdom in that."

As you mentioned, sex for many women was a burden and unwanted. Women had limited rights in the market place and married to avoid poverty or dependence on their families. Women often married men they did not want to fuck and women who did want to fuck their husbands often had to share. If women wanted to fuck someone else, and did, they were screwed. Women were second class. It may have been a reality they had to deal with but doing so graciously was foolish. It still is. I know women cheat, blah, blah, blah, but the issue of cheating spouses hits stay at home mothers the hardest. As a rule, they should do what is best for them, dump their husband and collect as much money as they can if that works for them. Too bad if that is not best for the kids. Women do not owe children second class citizenship. Not even their own.

Posted by curtisp on November 12, 2009 at 5:28 PM
17
I usually love Dan's advice but ever since I started reading his column years ago, this particular inconsistency has always stood out. I think that if you can't get the sex you want (or the amount of sex you want) from a partner, you should leave the relationship. I just DON'T believe anyone can be made happy by pretending to maintain a relationship and then going outside for sex (N.B. unless both partners are into that as their "scene").

I have tried to see Dan's point of view by putting myself in the shoes of all three people involved. If I were the frustrated partner, I'd just want OUT so I could have a WHOLE relationship with Mr. Right rather than two HALF relationships. If I were the frigid partner, I would not want to subject someone I loved to a joyless bed for the rest of his life. If I were the "third party" I would feel used and humiliated, knowing that I was "good enough to fuck" but not "good enough to marry".

By the way, just so you know, I'm not a prude: I was once in a long-term threeway "monogamous" gay relationship that worked well for all of us... until it didn't anymore.
Posted by The Happily Married Gay Guy on November 12, 2009 at 6:12 PM
asterbleu 18
As the woman in a six-year sexless marriage, I'd like to assert my opinion that there are reasons besides sex and children to stay in a marriage. I should add that the lack of sex is due to my husband's nonexistent sex drive. He has been big enough to admit and accept the reality that I will seek sex elsewhere. I don't expect many to understand the value of the relationship, but it works for us. HORNYO could certainly have valid reasons to stay.
Posted by asterbleu on November 12, 2009 at 7:53 PM
Urgutha Forka 19
Great advice as usual Dan!

Relationships aren't like some machine that if it breaks, you just order a spare part out of the standard manual. They're pretty unique. There isn't a one size fits all response for any particular problem, sometimes the problem - even when it seems like a typical, run of the mill one - requires a non-typical answer.
Posted by Urgutha Forka on November 12, 2009 at 7:54 PM
20
@8 Automa, no-fault divorces did a lot more to protect women who couldn't "prove" abuse.
Posted by Not a victim anymore on November 12, 2009 at 8:06 PM
21
"As a rule, [women] should do what is best for them, dump their husband and collect as much money as they can if that works for them. Too bad if that is not best for the kids. Women do not owe children second class citizenship. Not even their own."

/squinting hard

There must be a soul somewhere in all that endless blackness....
Posted by Spartikuss on November 12, 2009 at 8:45 PM
curtisp 22
#21 Stop sniveling and put it in context. I was responding to a somewhat trite comment about men and mistresses. Libertine values aside, cheating on ones spouse causes immense pain and is often, not always, but often done for selfish reasons. The reality for many stay at home parents, mainly women, is when the income earner cheats the stay at home parent becomes second class and that is not something women owe to their children. If divorce is the best way out then that is what they should do. If they do divorce they should get what they can out of the first class partner who was not putting the children first to begin with. I know not all people are willing to have sex with only one person. But if that is their way then make arrangements with your partner, don’t marry, marry late in life, or don’t plan on being married all your life. Yes there are exceptions and some spouses cheat because of trouble in the marriage, but expecting someone to stick around “for the children” is selfish, manipulating and hypocritical.
Posted by curtisp on November 12, 2009 at 10:09 PM
seandr 23
@22 What a bunch of bullshit. Do you actually know anyone who's been through a divorce?

If a marriage isn't working, whether due to infidelity or other reasons, it's ALWAYS in the couple's and kid's best interest to work out a divorce agreement that is fair to both. If one parent is determined to destroy the other, the kids end up completely fucked up and no one wins except the lawyers.

And I've got news for you - the world is full of stay-at-home women who married for money and fuck around on the husband while he's off busting his sorry ass for some horseshit corporation. (The east side is crawling with them.)
It's a tradition that goes way back in history.

What's more, Zardoz rules!!
Posted by seandr on November 12, 2009 at 11:22 PM
24
@17 -- I know of a person that divorced his wife over the lack of sex in their marriage. He now dates other people, has no desire to remarry, eats dinner at his ex's place most of the time, and otherwise is the perfect father to their child. She's still his best friend and favourite person in the world.

What sense did it make to divorce? They're practically married anyway. Now, despite the fact that he would probably want this to be true, he almost certainly doesn't have the right to make medical decisions for her, visit her in the hospital, etc. Great.

He was honest, and he made the 'right' decision. Too bad that decision makes NO FUCKING SENSE. If they were married still and he was openly seeing other women for sex they'd live the same life, except they wouldn't have to pay two rents and travel to see each other.

It's good that it worked out for you, but treating things as black and white when there're obviously shades of grey doesn't really get anyone anywhere.
Posted by RealMonster on November 15, 2009 at 5:28 PM
25
@10 for the win!

Relationships do not fit into nice categories that have explanations and quick fixes. Since we do not have any detailed information about the OP's relationship other than it is sexless, any advice seems reasonable. Dan has encountered his share of this type of relationship before and is probably more qualified to comment than most of us.

People are people and speculating about who, what and why is pointless. If this guy is looking for justification for cheating he will find it, just like there are guys who would like to cheat but don't. The same can be said for women, if they want to cheat they can find reasons and justification and other women who "deserve" to cheat won't take advantage of their supposedly morally superior position.

My point is that they guy will have to weigh the value of his relationship and the other factors that we cannot know against his happiness and desire for sexual fulfillment. Gee that sounds like grown up crap - most of the comments I see here are not ready to make grown up decisions.
Posted by stormblade on November 17, 2009 at 2:29 AM

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