Wednesday, November 11, 2009
Film Speaking of Robert Zemeckis (And Amy Dickinson)
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 1:43 PM
The kid had today off school so last night the boyfriend rented Back to the Future, the film that almost made Michael J. Fox a movie star, and we stayed up late and watched it on our non-flat, non-wide-screen, cathode-ray, Reagan-era television console. It's amazing how well that movie—nearly 25-years-old—has held up. It even has Arab terrorists—crazed Reagan-era Libyans wearing keffiyehs and packing shoulder-fired rocket launchers—which made it feel quite contemporary. The kid enjoyed some milk and Halloween candy while the boyfriend and I enjoyed a bottle of wine leftover from a dinner party the night before.
And that's not okay, according to advice columnist Amy Dickinson. A woman has been watching her grandson two nights a month to give her daughter and son-in-law a break. "When our grandson was born, his parents created a list of rules regarding his care. I understood why they would want to do this. One of the rules is that there is zero tolerance for drinking any alcohol by the primary caregiver..." Grandma respected her daughter's wishes and didn't have wine with her meals—which she did when her kids were young—on those two nights a month. Now her daughter wants to grandma and grampa to take the kid off her hands for days at a time and grandma wants to ask her daughter to rescind her zero-tolerance policy. "Is responsibly drinking wine in one's home mutually exclusive to being able to responsibly care for a child?" grandma asks.
I support the "zero tolerance" policy of these parents. Even one glass of wine can affect your response time and sleep habits. Speak with your daughter, and go over her list of expectations. You should ask her to negotiate a solution—the most obvious being that you and your husband trade off who is the primary caregiver in the evenings. This person will enjoy a glass of apple juice with dinner.
Amy wraps it up by accusing grandma of having a drinking problem and provides us with a nifty new way to determine whether you're an alcoholic: if someone else has a problem with your drinking, then you have a drinking problem.
Um... in my family when you dropped your kid(s) off at grandma's house you were practically expected to drop off a bottle of wine at the same time. I survived my visits with my grandparents and my son has survived his visits with his grandparents, responsible wine drinkers one and all. And I don't think I know any parents who aren't light drinkers. Zero tolerance? Advisa please. Drinking is sometimes the only thing that makes parenting—which can make you miserable if you're not careful—tolerable at all.
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1
The children Dan, think of the children! Actually, I find Amy Dickinson's advice pretty stupid. What a pity, I do so enjoy her on Wait Wait, Don't Tell Me.
2
I don't drink but I say have at it. A couple of drinks shouldn't hurt. Unless there is an illness or medical condition that might make a trip to the hospital a possibility, a responsible person can have a drink and still be responsible. The bigger issue is why no BIG SCREAM TeeVee?
3
I'm glad you posted this - I read this column during my lunch break (in the real newspaper we get at work, hooray!) and came away with a steaming pile of WTF. I really expected Amy to rip the daughter a new one for being such an asshole as to provide written rules for (I'm guessing here) the free childcare provided by the grandparents and for second-guessing grandma's parenting abilities. I mean, if the rules were created specifically because grandma historically has had a problem with alcohol, why would the daughter be willing to leave her child with grandma anyway? True alcoholics are't likely to let a piece of paper with rules on it change their habits.
I do love Amy Dickinson though. Half the time her answers make no sense and she's not afraid to give someone a smackdown (even if her position is sometimes fucked up, as is the case here). Way more entertaining than Dear Abby!
I do love Amy Dickinson though. Half the time her answers make no sense and she's not afraid to give someone a smackdown (even if her position is sometimes fucked up, as is the case here). Way more entertaining than Dear Abby!
4
That's a load of bollocks. Amy would have terrible things to say about my love for the nectar of the gods, the uisqe beatha, that is whiskey/whisky. Sorry, Amy. I drink mine neat.
5
Don't you ever get tired of being the perpetual teenager, Dan?
It's all about you.......
"Nobody can tell ME what to do"......
It's all about you.......
"Nobody can tell ME what to do"......
6
Me, pediatrician, she, lawyer. We're watching the grandkids (3.5 y/o and 6 m/o) on Friday night while their parents go to the basketball game. The game is on TV. I'm watching. Beer will be involved. No child will be harmed in the process.
I love Amy on Wait Wait, but that is a dumb answer.
I love Amy on Wait Wait, but that is a dumb answer.
8
I would kindly tell the parents that they can find another person to watch their kids. Getting shitfaced around kids is not a great thing to do but a glass of wine (or two or three)? Who gives a shit?
I would also be a little annoyed at getting a list of rules when I was doing someone a favor.
I would also be a little annoyed at getting a list of rules when I was doing someone a favor.
9
When my daughter was a toddler she would go around putting her hands on glasses and saying "cold, cold" one evening she put her hand on my glass of wine and said "cold" and I corrected her by saying "No honey, red wine is served at room temperature."
I honestly think that if you normalize reasonable alcohol consumption it demystifies it for your children. I like wine with my meals. I don't get drunk and my daughter doesn't see it as an intoxicant but rather something she might enjoy when she is of legal age and her taste buds have matured.
I honestly think that if you normalize reasonable alcohol consumption it demystifies it for your children. I like wine with my meals. I don't get drunk and my daughter doesn't see it as an intoxicant but rather something she might enjoy when she is of legal age and her taste buds have matured.
10
I have great parents (it's not their fault that I was a weird kid), and they drink with dinner sometimes and as they relax on nice Arizona weekends. It's not binge-drinking, it's wine or a cocktail or a couple of beers. More often as they age.
A beer mellows my mom out; I'm all for it.
A beer mellows my mom out; I'm all for it.
11
When relying on family members or close friends for childcare (esp. free childcare), you can expect them to follow the big rules (ie, we don't spank our children, no peanuts for billy b/c he's allergic) but otherwise, you have to trust them to do what they think is best. And it's good for kids - good because it teaches them to respect that there are different rules and expectations in different places and environments.
12
@9 For the same reason I think its a good idea to let kids have some when appropriate. Not a full glass or anything, but if they want to try a sip of wine or beer I think letting them develop a better outlook.
I would have no problem letting a teen have a glass of wine with dinner so long as they were responsible.
I would have no problem letting a teen have a glass of wine with dinner so long as they were responsible.
13
Not only is Amy's advice idiotic, I'd bet it's actually harmful. It sounds like another form of "abstinence education" to me. I don't know if there are any studies showing this, but it's my guess that kids who never see their parents or other adults indulging in alcohol in a responsible manner are going to have no frame of reference as to how to indulge responsibly themselves when they start drinking. Kids that "learn" about alcohol by not learning anything at all are probably the ones most likely to get alcohol poisoning at their first college kegger.
14
Wow. Anyone who never drinks around their kids should do just that -- throw a few back and watch the kiddies start to like you. T..V.? Sure, watch whatever you want. Candy? Fuck yes. Give us some, too! Off color humor, staying up late, maybe even some fresh chocolate chip cookies at 11 p.m. on a school night. Parents are uptight by definition. Let the kids see you relax and everyone will be better off for it.
15
What began as a great post about the merits of Back to the Future denigrated into some wine talk. Bah.
16
I think Amy's answer is bullshit too. However, it must be said that thanks to the Draconian anti-drinking laws and enforcement in this state, if for some reason you had to take the kid to the hospital, or drive for any reason with the kid in the car, alcohol on your breath is a one-way ticket to jail. You don't have to be .08. Cops are trained to give out DUIs regardless of your actual BAC based on circumstance and the danger you may present to others. Having a kid in your car is one thing they won't look fondly upon.
Of course, if you want to drive your kid around after staying awake for three days straight, that's fine. As long as there's no SCAAAAAAAAARY alcohol involved.
Of course, if you want to drive your kid around after staying awake for three days straight, that's fine. As long as there's no SCAAAAAAAAARY alcohol involved.
17
Dannny Boy, I'm with you. WTF was Amy thinking? When I read her column on my throne where I do daily, no laxatives were needed. I was tempted to send her a note myself, espousing the virtues of red wine, the antioxidants, the improved circulation, etc. Granny's letter was well-written and thoughtful, certainly she didn't seem like a swill guzzler to this street smart man! Yup, let the daughter pay for day care, she'll soon back down on her silly demand!
19
So everyone in Europe is an alcoholic and guilty of bad parenting?
If I was the grandma in question, I'd tell my bitch daughter if she didn't want me to drink around her kids, then she's going to have to cough up $10 an hour for babysitting...then, I'd have a REALLY late term abortion and get the snively little do-gooding bitch/twat/troll out of my life for being such a pretentious prat.
If I was the grandma in question, I'd tell my bitch daughter if she didn't want me to drink around her kids, then she's going to have to cough up $10 an hour for babysitting...then, I'd have a REALLY late term abortion and get the snively little do-gooding bitch/twat/troll out of my life for being such a pretentious prat.
20
Not only is her advice wrong, but it is totally unbiblical.
As a Jew who celebrates Passover every damn year, I can tell you that the Torah COMMANDS everyone, including the kids, to drink at least four glasses of wine for that Holiday.
I am worried that Amy Dickinson's immortal soul is in grave peril.
As a Jew who celebrates Passover every damn year, I can tell you that the Torah COMMANDS everyone, including the kids, to drink at least four glasses of wine for that Holiday.
I am worried that Amy Dickinson's immortal soul is in grave peril.
21
I don't drink at all, but my wife usually has a small glass of wine that she sips at before dinner. for my son's sake, I'm glad she does drink regularly in the way she does because she models drinking as something done by ordinary people in moderation that is no big deal.
I can't see anything that a grandmother has the response time to do relative to protecting a child in the home that she wouldn't be able to do after a glass of wine. We aren't talking freeway driving response time here.
I can't see anything that a grandmother has the response time to do relative to protecting a child in the home that she wouldn't be able to do after a glass of wine. We aren't talking freeway driving response time here.
22
I went to visit with my grandparents often as a child growing up in the '80s. As old-school Catholics, 'twas their custom to have a cocktail before dinner, a glass of wine at dinner, and another cocktail after. The peril! By around age 6 or 7, they even left me ALONE in the house while they attended 6am mass every morning. My god, CPS has been called for less than that these days.
I love how "the culture of fear" has permeated into the psyche of parents on all aspects- a glass of wine means potential death to a child. Also; no more riding their bikes without a parent, no more playing outside with friends unsupervised, etc.- have you noticed how puny slides in newer playgrounds are now?
Oh and remember; 4 drinks in two hours is considered "binge drinking". Uh huh.
I love how "the culture of fear" has permeated into the psyche of parents on all aspects- a glass of wine means potential death to a child. Also; no more riding their bikes without a parent, no more playing outside with friends unsupervised, etc.- have you noticed how puny slides in newer playgrounds are now?
Oh and remember; 4 drinks in two hours is considered "binge drinking". Uh huh.
23
I thought Amy was a bit off, too, but then I thought that just maybe these parents know a little bit more about the grandparents than we do. Maybe they come up with the rules because the grandparents really have a drinking problem?
If you start thinking about it that way, then you start to wonder why the grandparents are turning to Amy instead of telling the parents to chill out. Just the sort of game-playing a user-in-denial might engage in.
Just sayin'.... (and by the way, without wine in the house, neither of my daughters would have made it to double-digit ages....)
If you start thinking about it that way, then you start to wonder why the grandparents are turning to Amy instead of telling the parents to chill out. Just the sort of game-playing a user-in-denial might engage in.
Just sayin'.... (and by the way, without wine in the house, neither of my daughters would have made it to double-digit ages....)
24
The response time thing is hilarious. WTF are you doing letting a grandmother watch your baby if response time is the alpha and omega of babysitting? They drive slow for a reason.
Whats the position on texting while babysitting?
Whats the position on texting while babysitting?
25
I deeply dislike this Amy person. She's clearly a control freak. "zero tolerance"? "negotiate a solution"? This is the LW's mother, for Chrissake. And the line about the primary caregiver: "This person will enjoy a glass of apple juice with dinner." Like a grown woman who likes good wine is going to "enjoy" apple juice. It's sweet; it's a child's drink. Does Amy think the LW should treat her mother like a child, as punishment or something?
What a prig.
What a prig.
27
Free babysitting? She should be buying them all the alcohol they want--childcare is damned expensive!
28
And when those children become teenagers of zero-tolerance, alcohol-nazi parents, and end up getting their stomach pumped because they have NO practical intelligence when it comes to drinking -- then what will Amy sayt?!
29
Boy if this isn't an advertisement to remain childless, I dunno what is. I honestly *love* hearing parents talk like this - it's such confirmation for my life choices.
30
Apple juice? Ugh, mother of God. That stuff is pure sugar. I'd be worried about Grandma suffering diabetic shock.
32
Thanks to it being on the same page as the comics, I read Ask Amy every day, and I definitely have had a lot of beef with many of her answers, it's like she lives in some strange cocoon. Amy just doesn't understand the lives and psychiatry of most people.
33
I agree with @22.
The only thing these parents are going to teach their kids by being this overprotective is absolute terror of being alive. I've met parents like this. They are focused on paranoid nonsense like 'response time after one glass of wine', and the kids pick up on this, and begin to see themselves as brittle, precious, and helpless. Part of being a parent is raising kids capable of taking risks, and enjoying themselves.
If they can't abide one night of having their children cared for by people that drink a couple glasses of wine, they are unfit parents, and should be forced to confront and overcome their extreme debilitating paranoia before they ruin their children's lives.
The only thing these parents are going to teach their kids by being this overprotective is absolute terror of being alive. I've met parents like this. They are focused on paranoid nonsense like 'response time after one glass of wine', and the kids pick up on this, and begin to see themselves as brittle, precious, and helpless. Part of being a parent is raising kids capable of taking risks, and enjoying themselves.
If they can't abide one night of having their children cared for by people that drink a couple glasses of wine, they are unfit parents, and should be forced to confront and overcome their extreme debilitating paranoia before they ruin their children's lives.
34
This, Dan, is why we (sane, rational people who want to have some enjoyment in their lives) turn to you for advice, and not to syndicated mainstream advice columnists. Keep up the good work.
35
Sometimes your at home with the kids and you have to have a drink. I know maybe that sounds selfish to this person but its not for the good of you but the good of the children. Because if one of those little angels come up the stairs and complain about a sibling touching their toy. The knife that is being used to cut that precious souls crust off their bread and divide into little triangle shapes - because that's the only way they will eat them - will come crashing down on that little cunt bag's head faster then they can cry for salvation from the holy god of little bastard fuck children.
Jonathan
-Raising 4 living children and planning on drinking a bottle of wine when i get home.
Jonathan
-Raising 4 living children and planning on drinking a bottle of wine when i get home.
36
@35- I think you might need something stronger than alcohol.
@Amy Dickinson- Modeling responsible drinking is a vital task for parents. I've seen a lot of dangerous drinking by kids who were never allowed a drop of alcohol before college.
@Amy Dickinson- Modeling responsible drinking is a vital task for parents. I've seen a lot of dangerous drinking by kids who were never allowed a drop of alcohol before college.
37
Maybe if Mommy had a glass of wine every now and then, she wouldn't need Granny to take her kid off her hands, ever.
Jeebus.
Jeebus.
38
This is ridiculous. I grew up where the parents and grandparents drank beer with no harm done.In many European countries having wine or beer with a meal is normal.
In France wine is served at meals and even children get a sip of it. They have strict drinking and driving laws but this about someone going ape shit because grandma might have drink in front of the child and damage their fragile psyche for the rest of their life?!! I don't think so. These people need to grow up.
In France wine is served at meals and even children get a sip of it. They have strict drinking and driving laws but this about someone going ape shit because grandma might have drink in front of the child and damage their fragile psyche for the rest of their life?!! I don't think so. These people need to grow up.
39
Agreed, this is fucking stupid. Light drinking around the children, as someone pointed out upthread, is the best way to teach them responsible drinking. My parents were light drinkers, and I learned to be a light drinker rather than a binge one thanks to their example.
40
Can I have it for free and according to my persnickety, exacting specifications? If you don't do it exactly the way I want, it's because you hate children and want them to die from accidents. Got that, ma? I'll be back at midnight.
41
Living in Italy it's amazing to see how worked up Americans can get over alcohol. It seems to me enjoying wine with a meal with the grandkids around models good, not bad, behavior.
42
I grew up in the fabulous 1970s, when kids rode bikes without helmets, skateboarded without kneepads, entertained themselves by climbing around in the giant pipes for new town sewer system by the side of the road, ice skated on a pond with no adults around to save us all if the ice cracked, and for long car trips, were tossed in the back of the Country Squire stations wagon (wood paneling!) to bounce around like kernels of corn in a jiffy pop while we rocketed down the interstate. (Some friends of mine fell out of the back of the station wagon on the way home from the grocery store. We thought it was cool - they got their pictures in the paper!)
We also rode our bikes all over town, and walked to school, and the only protection against being abducted by the killer child molesters lurking behind every bush was "Don't talk to strangers." Oh, and when we got a new car the first thing my dad did was remove the seat belts, because they annoyed him.
Mostly, we survived to adulthood. Just like today.
I'm not endorsing this, just pointing out that there are reasonable advances in safety about thinking (like helmets and seat belts) and stupid extremes (like, you can't drink a glass of wine with dinner because you will no doubt leave my children to die in a house fire because your reaction time is slow).
Idiocy.
We also rode our bikes all over town, and walked to school, and the only protection against being abducted by the killer child molesters lurking behind every bush was "Don't talk to strangers." Oh, and when we got a new car the first thing my dad did was remove the seat belts, because they annoyed him.
Mostly, we survived to adulthood. Just like today.
I'm not endorsing this, just pointing out that there are reasonable advances in safety about thinking (like helmets and seat belts) and stupid extremes (like, you can't drink a glass of wine with dinner because you will no doubt leave my children to die in a house fire because your reaction time is slow).
Idiocy.
43
I think @23 made a reasonable point that there might be things about the grandparents that make the parents concerned. On the other hand Amy may not have had any of this information, and the fact that she uses the phrase "zero tolerance" makes me very suspicious. "Zero tolerance" almost always seems to mean "act without thinking".
44
I agree that if the grandmother WERE prone to drink herself into an unfit state, this "rule" wouldn't stop her anyway. This letter made me realize that if I had kids right now, I wouldn't want to let my mother take care of them overnight, because my mother actually is an alcoholic and tends to gradually become useless every night after dinner. For me to leave kids with her would require a very long and honest process of treatment beforehand, not simply an admonishment that she better not have anything to drink that night. So I agree that it's likely neither grandparent has a real drinking problem and the parents are just being nuts.
45
If she can't trust her parents to watch the kids for a couple of hours without specific written instructions, I have to wonder why she's using them for free childcare. Weirdo control freak. And Amy has her head up her Puritanical ass.
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