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News & ArtsTuesday, November 10, 2009
Sex What She Said
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 8:13 AM
Jessica at Feministing:
While I do believe that virginity is all well and good—my concern is really how women's worth is tied to the concept, not whether or not people have sex—I also think there something to be said for arguing strongly for pre-marital sex.Because, let's face it—if you're going to commit yourself to someone for (presumably) the rest of your life, it's probably best if you know that you're sexually compatible. I don't think this is particularly radical thing to say; in fact, it seems quite logical to me. But somehow, if you suggest that pre-marital sex is a good and maybe even necessary thing (especially if you say those things while being a feminist) you are an evil, evil whoremaker.
Do I think that people can have perfectly wonderful satisfying relationships without having had sex before making a commitment? Sure, I'm positive that happens often. But considering what a huge role sexuality plays in our lives and relationships... well, I'd rather be super duper positive.
1
LOL NO ONE CARES DAN U DON'T EVEN KNOW U DONT KNOW FEAT MOP BOUT THIS AT ALL EXPERT? DOUBT IT.
AN AN AN AN AN
MINUS THE LETTER, U A SHITTY CONJUNCTION.
AN AN AN AN AN
MINUS THE LETTER, U A SHITTY CONJUNCTION.
4
there's a lot of things you can't say on TV:
masturbation is not a sin
profiting off other's sickness is unethical
stop buying shit you don't need
stop eating so much
monotheism is not making the world more peaceful
the military is not defending our freedom
masturbation is not a sin
profiting off other's sickness is unethical
stop buying shit you don't need
stop eating so much
monotheism is not making the world more peaceful
the military is not defending our freedom
5
"...if you suggest that pre-marital sex is a good and maybe even necessary thing... you are an evil, evil whoremaker."
Really? Maybe in Salt Lake City and a few other places, but otherwise this is an absurd, long outdated overstatement.
Really? Maybe in Salt Lake City and a few other places, but otherwise this is an absurd, long outdated overstatement.
7
Maybe you want try it out first if sex is the ultimate end you seek from the relationship but if you are in love sex is a (one of many) means to enhance a fulfilling relationship and getting the sex right won't be that hard.
8
Why would you care, Dan? It's not like you even pretend you will be faithful and if you plan to cheat whenever you feel like it what difference would it make?
9
@8: So if the things he chooses to post are obviously in line with his personal life choices, he's a biased jerk. And when they're socio-ethical commentary about things which we know aren't even applicable to him... he's still a jerk?
Jeeze, tough crowd.
Jeeze, tough crowd.
10
Of course you should have premarital sex.
Because people who do never get a divorce.
Ever.
In fact, just the thought of even a few hours without that super hot pretested guaranteed compatible sex nearly drives them insane.
Because people who do never get a divorce.
Ever.
In fact, just the thought of even a few hours without that super hot pretested guaranteed compatible sex nearly drives them insane.
11
And when your tastes change dump your no longer compatable partner and find another?
And so on.
And so on?
Mature giving people with just a little bit of life skills in a loving committed relationship will find it easy (and rewarding) to grow and change together.
And so on.
And so on?
Mature giving people with just a little bit of life skills in a loving committed relationship will find it easy (and rewarding) to grow and change together.
13
and you aren't just determining sexual compatibility, but you are checking on things like generosity, selfishness, compassion, and lots of other things that will matter long term, well beyond the sexual arena. People might say that you would have an idea of those things elsewhere, but sex is also stress, and you will learn a lot about how your partner treats you in situations that could easily be "all me", but should be "all us, all you, and all me." it isn't just not wanting a lifetime of lousy sex that makes a person who uses you as a get-off tool without returning the favor, a lousy partner.
@9 whatever happens, do not talk about the topic at hand, just talk about yourself or dan. i'm sorry you didn't get the memos about how every word dan types into slog is ruining all of our lives, i'll talk to someone and get you on the list!
@9 whatever happens, do not talk about the topic at hand, just talk about yourself or dan. i'm sorry you didn't get the memos about how every word dan types into slog is ruining all of our lives, i'll talk to someone and get you on the list!
15
I'm sure the women at feministing are *cringing* that you're agreeing with them. Every three weeks there seems to be a piece on why 'Dan Savage HATES WOMEN.'
17
@12: What gives?! I was just trying to counter #8's nonsensical attack.
ON the topic: I think most of us can agree that pre-marital sex is generally a good idea. It obviously doesn't stop people getting stuck with spouses they're not sexually compatible with, but certainly minimizes it.
Also, I daresay it's very good for the sex-positive movement, all these folks who really understand themselves sexually even though they haven't married yet.
I'd also feel so much more terrible for divorcees if no-sex-before-marriage was still the norm. It'd really make them feel like outcasts!
ON the topic: I think most of us can agree that pre-marital sex is generally a good idea. It obviously doesn't stop people getting stuck with spouses they're not sexually compatible with, but certainly minimizes it.
Also, I daresay it's very good for the sex-positive movement, all these folks who really understand themselves sexually even though they haven't married yet.
I'd also feel so much more terrible for divorcees if no-sex-before-marriage was still the norm. It'd really make them feel like outcasts!
19
"Virginity is all well and good..." Really? What's good about inexperience, ineptitude, and ignorance?
I just don't get why anyone (unless they were really bad in bed and didn't want any comparisons being made) would think a virgin was such a prize as a partner.
I just don't get why anyone (unless they were really bad in bed and didn't want any comparisons being made) would think a virgin was such a prize as a partner.
22
@19 - I think it's the idea of perverting something innocent? Spoiling the unspoiled? Or maybe it's the ego trip from knowing that you were selected (assuming they had a choice) as the first person worthy of sex with said virgin?
Or, it could be just that guys like knowing their dick is going where no dick has gone before.
Or, it could be just that guys like knowing their dick is going where no dick has gone before.
23
Oh 21, you're so behind the times. Heard of vaccines? Condoms?
As I recall, you're the Selma Dritz quoter---she'd have a field day taking YOU apart.
As I recall, you're the Selma Dritz quoter---she'd have a field day taking YOU apart.
25
23
I've heard that 85-90% of women have had HPV.
I've heard that half of sexually active young adults get an STD by 25.
I've heard that homosexuals account for 55% of all new AIDS cases.
I wonder if those folks have heard of condoms?
I've heard that 85-90% of women have had HPV.
I've heard that half of sexually active young adults get an STD by 25.
I've heard that homosexuals account for 55% of all new AIDS cases.
I wonder if those folks have heard of condoms?
27
@19 Shaming people for choosing not to have sex is no different than shaming people for having sex.
28
@18 uh, it was a joke -- i was making a point about how your being on topic is somewhat out of "slog character" when dan posts about sex, it's just a bunch of people vetning their personal dan- or sex-issues -- did i actually sound serious? a group that receives memos about dan ruining all of our lives, all of the time?? yeesh
29
@25 Condoms do not protect against the transmission of HPV. They may reduce its transmission in individual cases, but they are nowhere near as effective as they are in fighting HIV, etc. That's because HPV is a skin-to-skin transmitted disease. It doesn't matter if an individual uses a condom every single time they ever has sex, they're still very likely to get HPV during their lifetime (the quote I've heard is around 80% of American adults have it at some point...not just women...)
30
Oh, kersy @27, that's not shaming, that's alliteration for the state of not-knowing. My take is that "virgin" is the opposite of "knowing" and my question is why anyone would value "not-knowing" in a sex partner.
31
Oh, kersy @27, that's not shaming, that's synonymic alliteration for the state of not-knowing. My take is that "virgin" is the opposite of "knowing" and my question is why anyone would value "not-knowing" in a sex partner. It's a reasonable question.
32
You can get to know a person without having pre-marital sex with them, that's what courtship (*an archaic concept this days) used to be for and look how long our grandparents and great grandparents lasted together (their whole lives). Cohabitation is just an excuse for promiscuity, and since the same people who want to dismantle marriage are promoting it the dupes who risk their health and mental well being by sleeping around every time they establish a new 'commitment' (sex partner) are just helping them erode the institution even faster.
33
@32: Do you honestly believe nobody was having pre-marital sex "back in the day?" Don't know very much about history, do you? The only thing the people you so hate are doing is encouraging people to be open and honest about what they're already doing.
There were never any "good old days."
There were never any "good old days."
34
@32 - "You can get to know a person without having pre-marital sex with them" Of course you can. You can't get to know how sexually compatible you are with the person, though. And trust me, finding out after marriage is not a whole lot of fun.
35
7, 8, 10, and 11: Why do you feel the need to post different things under different names? At least change the pattern of your typing, or something. Or better yet, wait a few more minutes between posts. Sheesh.
36
#25 The highest percentage of new AIDS cases are African American Females. Do your research.
The highest percentage of new STIs are in straight people over 50.
The highest percentage of new STIs are in straight people over 50.
38
ATLANTA, Georgia, August 24, 2009 - An official with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) announced the CDC's estimate Monday that in the United States AIDS is fifty times more prevalent among men who have sex with men ('MSM') than the rest of the population. Dr. Amy Lansky revealed this statistic during a plenary session at the 2009 HIV Prevention Conference in Atlanta.
The CDC had already reported last year that approximately 53% of the estimated 56,300 new HIV cases in 2006 were in homosexual men.
The new statistics, however, estimate the prevalence of HIV/AIDS relative to the homosexual population, which allows comparisons to other groups in the wider population. Because of the difficulty of determining the homosexual population, the CDC had to estimate. Based on a variety of national surveys, they based their statistics on the median estimate that homosexual men constitute 4 percent of the overall male population.
According to Dr. Lansky, then, based on the 4 percent figure, the CDC estimates that in 2007 there were 692.2 new HIV cases per 100,000 homosexual men - or fifty times more cases than the rest of the population.
The CDC had already reported last year that approximately 53% of the estimated 56,300 new HIV cases in 2006 were in homosexual men.
The new statistics, however, estimate the prevalence of HIV/AIDS relative to the homosexual population, which allows comparisons to other groups in the wider population. Because of the difficulty of determining the homosexual population, the CDC had to estimate. Based on a variety of national surveys, they based their statistics on the median estimate that homosexual men constitute 4 percent of the overall male population.
According to Dr. Lansky, then, based on the 4 percent figure, the CDC estimates that in 2007 there were 692.2 new HIV cases per 100,000 homosexual men - or fifty times more cases than the rest of the population.
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