Find Your Valentine
Slog
News & ArtsWednesday, November 4, 2009
Homo What He Said
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 11:39 AM
Wayne Besen writing about last night's heartbreaking defeat in Maine...
It is time we wake up and acknowledge that the GLBT fight for equality is the world’s first “Civil Likes” movement. Each year, a popularity contest is held somewhere on the map and if the locals find us likeable our families are protected. If the natives have a negative view of gay people, we remain second-class citizens.Given this reality we have to make a major choice.
We can declare the current process a disgusting and humiliating insult to our humanity and opt out of all future referendums. The movement would make the case to the nation why such votes are anathema to American values and in the process educate people about our families and quest for equality. A powerful campaign of continued and sustainable civil disobedience would have to supplement this strategy.
Or, we can continue to participate in degrading referendums. But, if we do so, we have to stop pretending that the majority of the American people understand the U.S. Constitution, much less the notion of equality. Those who vote against GLBT rights simply do not like gay people and their antipathy, often masked by religious bigotry, overrides the idea of equal protection.
2
You would be astonished at the number of perfectly reasonable, normal-looking, even liberal-minded people who think homosexuals are all leather-clad, bathhouse-hopping, thousands-of-indiscriminate-sex-partners-having perverts right out of "Cruising", at least at night.
3
Actually you don't have a choice and the best strategy is to do both anyway. Cheer up being 52-48 in Maine is very cool, Maine is only 4 years away from flipping that.
Yes you need to communicate better with straights by having all gay folks come out and go to ptas and bbqs and telling people it's abouit traditional notions of American love of liberty and freedom from government restraint, traditional commitment, traditional love and responsibility. Instead of calling it gay rights. A subtle difference but think how to connect with straights who don't know any gays? those who do, are with you.
The reason you don't have any choice is because if a state court rules the constitution gives you rights, then the haters will put up a constitutional amendment anyway, etc. etc.
All social change involves all theatres.
Winning in Washington and being so close in MAINE is two cheers kind of day. Okay, one and a half. But light years ahead of yesteryear and NOW that gays and their friends are organized in Yakima and Benton and Clark county etc., please please please gie us the lsit of sate legislators and their positions on gay marriage rights? Please? So we know who to lobby and who not to endorse and who not to give money to?
Let's make Washington the first state to pass gay marraige and keep it. I think we can do that in about 3 years.
Yes you need to communicate better with straights by having all gay folks come out and go to ptas and bbqs and telling people it's abouit traditional notions of American love of liberty and freedom from government restraint, traditional commitment, traditional love and responsibility. Instead of calling it gay rights. A subtle difference but think how to connect with straights who don't know any gays? those who do, are with you.
The reason you don't have any choice is because if a state court rules the constitution gives you rights, then the haters will put up a constitutional amendment anyway, etc. etc.
All social change involves all theatres.
Winning in Washington and being so close in MAINE is two cheers kind of day. Okay, one and a half. But light years ahead of yesteryear and NOW that gays and their friends are organized in Yakima and Benton and Clark county etc., please please please gie us the lsit of sate legislators and their positions on gay marriage rights? Please? So we know who to lobby and who not to endorse and who not to give money to?
Let's make Washington the first state to pass gay marraige and keep it. I think we can do that in about 3 years.
4
or ... you can just pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and get a vote during a Presidential election year ....
5
Getting everyone to opt out? That's never going to happen. As much as he's got a point, the fact is, the wing nuts have learned from the Civil Rights movement and changed the venue from the courts to the local ballot boxes, and it's worked beautifully - so far.
You have to keep in mind the lesson right there in Washington - the tide is turning, and we will win. This guy is preaching surrender, whether he gets it or not.
You have to keep in mind the lesson right there in Washington - the tide is turning, and we will win. This guy is preaching surrender, whether he gets it or not.
7
I think this guy has it wrong. There are plenty of locals that find gays likable but still vote against gay marriage. They just find their own history and tradition *more* likable. Marriage is between a man and a woman and they're just comfortable with that. They don't see that as bigotry at all.
Plus, this religious-bigotry-is-driving-them argument is starting to not to hold water anymore what with secular Maine going the other way. What it comes down to is that: 1) most Americans don't consider this to be a civil rights issue at all; and 2)no matter how much they like gays and are supportive and accepting of their gay relationships, they're quite comfortable with their current definition of marriage which includes the notion of gender and they don't want it messed with.
Plus, this religious-bigotry-is-driving-them argument is starting to not to hold water anymore what with secular Maine going the other way. What it comes down to is that: 1) most Americans don't consider this to be a civil rights issue at all; and 2)no matter how much they like gays and are supportive and accepting of their gay relationships, they're quite comfortable with their current definition of marriage which includes the notion of gender and they don't want it messed with.
8
@2 Straight people don't have lots of sex. No need for prostitution or bed hopping. No STD's. No affairs. Never abandon children from their encounters. And never have abortions resulting from one night stands.
We must never atop fighting. In life, you lose some and you win some. You can't become dispirited and quit. Not if you care about this country and future generations who deserve to be free.
We must never atop fighting. In life, you lose some and you win some. You can't become dispirited and quit. Not if you care about this country and future generations who deserve to be free.
9
There's room for a multiplicity of strategies--that makes a movement stronger-- but the lesson of history is that opting out of electoral process doesn't get you a damn thing.
Also, demonstrably false that people who vote against GLBT rights "simply don't like gay people". There is nothing simple about the politics of prejudice. There is incredible cognitive dissonance going on. We have to tap into that and leverage it. We can't afford to write anyone off. We can't afford a politics of self-congratulation.
Also, demonstrably false that people who vote against GLBT rights "simply don't like gay people". There is nothing simple about the politics of prejudice. There is incredible cognitive dissonance going on. We have to tap into that and leverage it. We can't afford to write anyone off. We can't afford a politics of self-congratulation.
10
Keep in mind that probably the deciding factor in gay marriage being rejected in Maine was the year.
This was not a presidential election year. There was no Maine Senate race on the ballot. This was not even a Congressional election year.
They only won because with gay marriage at the top of the ballot, gays and anti-gay bigots were the ones most drawn to the ballot boxes - and we're a smaller portion of the population.
And even given the small nature of this election - which favors conservatives more, since old people have nothing else to do - it still only passed 52-48.
Had this been a national election year, it would probably not have passed. And you can bet that the next time Maine raises this question, gay marriage will win.
This was not a presidential election year. There was no Maine Senate race on the ballot. This was not even a Congressional election year.
They only won because with gay marriage at the top of the ballot, gays and anti-gay bigots were the ones most drawn to the ballot boxes - and we're a smaller portion of the population.
And even given the small nature of this election - which favors conservatives more, since old people have nothing else to do - it still only passed 52-48.
Had this been a national election year, it would probably not have passed. And you can bet that the next time Maine raises this question, gay marriage will win.
11
8
In life, you lose some and you win some.
In gay marriage, you lose thirty one and you win zero.
In life, you lose some and you win some.
In gay marriage, you lose thirty one and you win zero.
12
@4: It's true, the Knight Initiative was during the 2000 election and won with a 23 point margin. Prop 8 was during a presidential election and won with a 5 point margin. Same thing, same statement, different approaches.
2012 is an excellent goal. It's the same year Oregon will attempt it, so maybe we can hitch our wagon up to CA and OR and go for the gold? NOM and FOTF are the sole funnels for money, and as we've seen, they can fundraise, but their capacity to give is limited.
Let's give the campaign a catchy name, begin our respective education campaigns, start fundraising and get this off the ground. From what I've seen, the groups that spawned NOM have been amassing money for this fight since the mid-90s and are using the same talking points from that time period. We can outdo them. Use the fact that Mass. has the lowest divorce rate in the country, point out that there is no possible correlation in other countries that show a net negative for approving of same-sex unions. Let's do this thing.
Onward to 2012!
2012 is an excellent goal. It's the same year Oregon will attempt it, so maybe we can hitch our wagon up to CA and OR and go for the gold? NOM and FOTF are the sole funnels for money, and as we've seen, they can fundraise, but their capacity to give is limited.
Let's give the campaign a catchy name, begin our respective education campaigns, start fundraising and get this off the ground. From what I've seen, the groups that spawned NOM have been amassing money for this fight since the mid-90s and are using the same talking points from that time period. We can outdo them. Use the fact that Mass. has the lowest divorce rate in the country, point out that there is no possible correlation in other countries that show a net negative for approving of same-sex unions. Let's do this thing.
Onward to 2012!
13
not putting it up for a popular vote is just beating-around-the-bush......
what this comes down to is that 50% of America fucking sucks
no surprise there.....
now what to do with that information?
I say civil war
what this comes down to is that 50% of America fucking sucks
no surprise there.....
now what to do with that information?
I say civil war
14
I'm wondering who this "we" is the guy keeps talking about. Does the homogeneous (har) "gay agenda" really exist? Are there secret meetings where every gay person in the country gets marching orders, to collectively opt out of this or participate in that?
Funny, because it's always seemed to be that gays are just like any other group: fractured, evolutionary, self organizing, and with different people pursuing different strategies. Does this author know something I don't?
Funny, because it's always seemed to be that gays are just like any other group: fractured, evolutionary, self organizing, and with different people pursuing different strategies. Does this author know something I don't?
15
10
I don't think so...
"Early predictions of 35 percent of voter turnout -- heavy for an off-year vote -- were upgraded on Tuesday as long lines formed at polls across Maine. Voters ended up repealing Maine's gay marriage law.
Even with incomplete vote figures, the turnout was at least 53 percent of eligible voters. Secretary of State Matthew Dunlap says the figure could grow to around 60 percent -- approaching what Maine sees in a major election year."
Face it, they don't like you in Maine, either.
I don't think so...
"Early predictions of 35 percent of voter turnout -- heavy for an off-year vote -- were upgraded on Tuesday as long lines formed at polls across Maine. Voters ended up repealing Maine's gay marriage law.
Even with incomplete vote figures, the turnout was at least 53 percent of eligible voters. Secretary of State Matthew Dunlap says the figure could grow to around 60 percent -- approaching what Maine sees in a major election year."
Face it, they don't like you in Maine, either.
16
12
packing 2012 ballots with gay measures will suit the GOP just fine.
it always gets their base fired up and to the polls.
plus 2012 will see blacks turning out to try (unsuccessfully...) to give Obama a 2nd term.
as Prop 8 should have taught you, Obama's kinfolk are the staunchest anti-gay marriage demographic out there.
packing 2012 ballots with gay measures will suit the GOP just fine.
it always gets their base fired up and to the polls.
plus 2012 will see blacks turning out to try (unsuccessfully...) to give Obama a 2nd term.
as Prop 8 should have taught you, Obama's kinfolk are the staunchest anti-gay marriage demographic out there.
17
Besen fails to realize that WE aren't the ones bringing these measures to the ballot.
I agree with his sentiment in general, but it hardly seems a palatable option to simply ignore a discriminatory ballot initiative out of principal.
And we should organize around Presidential election years - organize around a boycott of the ballot box.
It doesn't help us to participate...maybe they can get along with us. Good luck with that in 2010.
I agree with his sentiment in general, but it hardly seems a palatable option to simply ignore a discriminatory ballot initiative out of principal.
And we should organize around Presidential election years - organize around a boycott of the ballot box.
It doesn't help us to participate...maybe they can get along with us. Good luck with that in 2010.
18
I don't give a shit if you are likeable or not. Equal protection means just that: equal protection. Marriage is a right-and everyone deserves it-not just the people we like. I hate bible-thumpers and those assholes get married in droves.
The fact that this is a "likeability" contest makes me angrier at the stupidity of my fellow citizens than ever.
I think what it means is that glbt groups need to have even more parties. Because glbt parties are absolutely the BEST parties ever.
The fact that this is a "likeability" contest makes me angrier at the stupidity of my fellow citizens than ever.
I think what it means is that glbt groups need to have even more parties. Because glbt parties are absolutely the BEST parties ever.
19
@6 - that had more to do with the severe lack of outreach, the lack of participation at various non-white ethnic community events.
This is not rocket science, boys and girls, if you want a place at the table you have to do the work. And not at the last minute, but for a full year or more.
This is not rocket science, boys and girls, if you want a place at the table you have to do the work. And not at the last minute, but for a full year or more.
20
I've actually seen the gay agenda. Actually, it's more like a day planner -- a gay Filofax, if you will. I love what you've done with those little dividers.
21
At least part of the problem in Maine was that bigots resorted to dishonest scare tactics and a ton of out-of-state money was funneled in to push for overturning Maine's marriage law. There's a little bit of consolation in the fact that the vote was so close, but I can't help wondering if it would have gone the other way if bigots had been forced to be honest and had relied as much on local money as the group in favor of same-sex marriage did. But as long as those opposed to same-sex marriage are allowed to say whatever they want--whether it's true or not--it'll probably be defeat after defeat.
22
21
the homosexuals outspent 2-1 and had out of state money as well.
gawd, you got your asses reamed, at least take it like a man
the homosexuals outspent 2-1 and had out of state money as well.
gawd, you got your asses reamed, at least take it like a man
23
22
You squealed like a Menudo fan when I reamed your ass. Of course you got all "get out!" while my cock was still in your ass because you closet queers are like that, but it was fun up til that point, wasn't it sugarplum?
You squealed like a Menudo fan when I reamed your ass. Of course you got all "get out!" while my cock was still in your ass because you closet queers are like that, but it was fun up til that point, wasn't it sugarplum?
26
brilliant ideas: civil war (13) and boycotting the ballot box (17).
i'm glad that many of the people working for your civil rights are smarter and more creative than this.
i'm glad that many of the people working for your civil rights are smarter and more creative than this.
28
Sometimes I don't think we'll see any real change on this issue until my parent's generation is too old and senile (or dead) to get out of bed and vote, and the generation that's in high school and college right now is mature enough to run the show. By that point, I'll be a grumpy old man who doesn't give a fuck anymore. But at least I'll be able to complain about "back in my day..." to any young twink who'd be willing to listen.
29
I'm not sure how exactly this is the "first" "Civil Likes" movement. So objections to equal rights for blacks weren't based on whites not liking blacks?
30
I'm going to say something, and I'm pretty sure you'll take it the wrong way, but it has to be said.
If you want people to love you for who you are, you're pretty much wasting your time.
At best, at this time, you can get them to accept you.
Focus on that. Focus on achievable goals. But don't expect those who hate to suddenly stop hating you.
If you want people to love you for who you are, you're pretty much wasting your time.
At best, at this time, you can get them to accept you.
Focus on that. Focus on achievable goals. But don't expect those who hate to suddenly stop hating you.
32
It is soooo precious that some bigot has nothing better to do but gloat and offer nothing substantive but schadenfreude... And it's not even accurate schadenfreude. 31 steps back, 0 steps forward? I guess someone would rather not believe that there's gay marriage in Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut and Iowa. Not to mention the Netherlands, Canada, Norway, Sweden, Belgium and even South Africa and heavily Catholic Spain. And it's likely to pass in further European countries in the near future, and even in South America it's making progress (the Uruguayan party leading in the polls has making gay marriage legal part of its platform). Not to mention the quite numerous numbers of locales recognizing everything but marriage (including as of now Washington State).
So enjoy your gloating now. Even if they didn't like us in Maine this year (and I'm still quite skeptical that a big senate or presidential race wouldn't provide a significant down-ballot benefit to a gay marriage question), the undeniable statistical trend of all these ballot initiatives is for support for gay marriage in the US to gain 2% every year. Young people are fine with gays. And your kind are dying out. And that's something I'll be gloating about.
So enjoy it now, but it's not going to last for long.
So enjoy your gloating now. Even if they didn't like us in Maine this year (and I'm still quite skeptical that a big senate or presidential race wouldn't provide a significant down-ballot benefit to a gay marriage question), the undeniable statistical trend of all these ballot initiatives is for support for gay marriage in the US to gain 2% every year. Young people are fine with gays. And your kind are dying out. And that's something I'll be gloating about.
So enjoy it now, but it's not going to last for long.
33
32
31 states have voted on homosexual marriage.
All 31 states have voted to OUTLAW homosexual marriage.
(Most put it in the State Constitution)
Zero states have voted to approve homosexual marriage.
31
0
See how that works?
31 states have voted on homosexual marriage.
All 31 states have voted to OUTLAW homosexual marriage.
(Most put it in the State Constitution)
Zero states have voted to approve homosexual marriage.
31
0
See how that works?
34
Yeah, and see the fact that there's gay marriage in Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Iowa, the Netherlands, Canada, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, South Africa and Spain, and civil unions in a couple dozen other places as well... There were none of those just a couple decades ago. And it's under consideration in a number of other places as well.
You're losing. No amount of gloating is going to make those facts not a reflection of extraordinary progress in favor of gay rights. See how that works?
You're losing. No amount of gloating is going to make those facts not a reflection of extraordinary progress in favor of gay rights. See how that works?
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
SL Letter of the Day: Life Sentence by Dan Savage
-
SL Letter of the Day: Daddy Loves Who? by Dan Savage
-
Required Listening: Howard Stern on Ellen, JC Penney, Bullied Gay Kids, Rosie, Santorum, Bachmann, et al by Dan Savage
-
Crowdsourcing Uncut Police Video from the Dec. 12 Occupy Protest at the Port of Seattle by Eli Sanders
-
State Legislator Testifies That His Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage Came to Him from a Commercial for Jack in the Box by Christopher Frizzelle
-
"Let me be the first one to say: My business will refuse to participate in a same-sex marriage ceremony," by Republican Representative Matt Shea of the Spokane Valley by Eli Sanders
-
The Onion Is on a Roll: "Iran Worried U.S. Might Be Building 8,500th Nuclear Weapon" by Charles Mudede
-
"I don't know if I want to be here [if gay marriage passes]," by Republican State Senator Jay Rodne of North Bend by Eli Sanders
-
The AP Is Reporting That Whitney Houston Is Dead by Paul Constant
-
Announcing The Stranger's Tournament of Dunces! Who's the Dumbest Representative in the State House? by Christopher Frizzelle
RSS
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (35) RSS