Wednesday, November 4, 2009
News Cyclist Hits Pedestrian
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 11:32 AM
And that tells you everything you need to know about cyclists, according to the commenters over at the PI. I wonder what they'll say the first time a Seattle motorist strikes a pedestrian. We'll just have to wait and see.
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1
i hit pedestrians on my bike all the time. usually because im starving and im racing to get cheeseburgers.
those fucking pedestrians should wear helmets
those fucking pedestrians should wear helmets
2
The PI and the Times encourage extremists, reactionaries, flames and trolls in their comments to drive up their page views, that's all. Same as you.
Any paper can have a thoughtful comments section if they want to moderate it properly, but there isn't much money in it.
Any paper can have a thoughtful comments section if they want to moderate it properly, but there isn't much money in it.
3
This is unreal. Totally expected but unreal. A few observations:
1. Anonymity brings out people with opinions like those to message boards. If you talked like that at the intersection where that happened, you'd be beaten to death by reasonable people.
2. People only notice when cyclists screw up. They focus on that, remember it, and completely forget the 95% remainder of cyclists riding like they are invisible.
1. Anonymity brings out people with opinions like those to message boards. If you talked like that at the intersection where that happened, you'd be beaten to death by reasonable people.
2. People only notice when cyclists screw up. They focus on that, remember it, and completely forget the 95% remainder of cyclists riding like they are invisible.
4
I have an 18 stitch scar from being hit by a cyclist on the Burke Gilman Trail. I was 14 at the time, and had walked 30 of 55 miles on a one-day walk around Lake Washington for my PE class in Junior High School.
So, it's not unprecidented.
So, it's not unprecidented.
5
i ride my bike waaay better after several shots of Wild Turkey. it also makes me more attractive and ten times more hilarious. have you ever been to the Buckaroo?
7
well Derrickito... at least your douchebaggery and assholish nature is a constant in the universe.
8
Hey! I notice when cyclists don't screw up. I've posted both times this year on Facebook when I saw a bicyclist wait for a red light. Last year I saw one wait (well, kind of slow down not stop) for pedestrian crosswalk, and people heard about if from me. There's a lot of good in the world if you're willing to take notice.
9
Drivers, Cyclists and Pedesterians are all equally capable of being utter and complete shitheads...
but, the pedestrian is always right.
but, the pedestrian is always right.
11
Shorter PI Trolls: "When A cyclist hits a pedestrian it's a clear indication all cyclists are spoiled, self-involved hipster communists who should be shot on sight. When an automobile driver hits a pedestrian it's a clear indication all pedestrians are spoiled, self-involved, too-poor-to-drive imbeciles who were probably disobeying traffic laws."
12
As a cyclist, pedestrian and sometimes motorist, I have to say that it never ceases to amaze me how many people walk out into streets and intersections without so much as a glance around to see who's coming. I find myself yelling (or muttering to myself) several times everyday, "look both ways before you cross the street"....it's fucking grade-school lessons here people! and basic common sense, a rarer and rarer thing these days.
14
Pretty fun reading. But I've been hit by a cyclist while walking on the sidewalk already, so it's not hard to see where the animosity comes from.
15
and @9 is right. Anyone can be a moron. and although Peds are always right, Motorists are the most dangerous. and Peds are the most killed.
16
Sounds like th bicyclist was at fault for riding faster than he could control his vehicle. Why is this a news story?
17
@8: Indeed. I am always heartened and impressed when a bicyclist signals a turn or stops at a stop sign. Some do.
I think the issue is that bicyclists have developed a reputation, deserved or not, as holier-than-thou crusaders who are borderline violent in promoting their transportation mode of choice while simultaneously disregarding pretty much every traffic law. It's a few bad apples, I'm sure, but those bad apples have really turned a lot of people against bicyclists.
I think the issue is that bicyclists have developed a reputation, deserved or not, as holier-than-thou crusaders who are borderline violent in promoting their transportation mode of choice while simultaneously disregarding pretty much every traffic law. It's a few bad apples, I'm sure, but those bad apples have really turned a lot of people against bicyclists.
18
@3 You could say the same thing about drivers.
95% of both kinds are responsible and well behaved, but you have the 5% of each who are mostly self absorbed and put their own desires and wants above all others be they in an SUV or critical mass. They see no reason to follow rules or act safely because they have places to go and needs to fulfill.
Same mindset, different method.
95% of both kinds are responsible and well behaved, but you have the 5% of each who are mostly self absorbed and put their own desires and wants above all others be they in an SUV or critical mass. They see no reason to follow rules or act safely because they have places to go and needs to fulfill.
Same mindset, different method.
19
@12, you are aware that when a pedestrian steps out into an intersection in the manner you describe, HE HAS THE RIGHT OF WAY?
What I see (and experience) far more often is standing helplessly on the corner as dozens of speeding cars and, yes, bicycles whiz by without so much as a thought to their legally-mandated requirement to STOP AND WAIT. There are some streets I cross on foot regularly, like Leary, where NO ONE ever stops, and you have to spot your gap and run like hell.
And I've never, ever, ever had a cyclist stop for me (or anyone in my sight) at an intersection unless the light was red.
What I see (and experience) far more often is standing helplessly on the corner as dozens of speeding cars and, yes, bicycles whiz by without so much as a thought to their legally-mandated requirement to STOP AND WAIT. There are some streets I cross on foot regularly, like Leary, where NO ONE ever stops, and you have to spot your gap and run like hell.
And I've never, ever, ever had a cyclist stop for me (or anyone in my sight) at an intersection unless the light was red.
20
"And I've never, ever, ever had a cyclist stop for me (or anyone in my sight) at an intersection unless the light was red. "
This is such a lie, for it to have a shred of truth would mean Fnarf stepped off the internet for one second.
This is such a lie, for it to have a shred of truth would mean Fnarf stepped off the internet for one second.
21
@19: Whether the pedestrian has the right of way or not depends on whether the vehicles in the road can stop for the pedestrian in time.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/Rcw/default.aspx?…
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/Rcw/default.aspx?…
22
@19 wait....I can just jump out in front of traffic downtown Seattle and every car, bus, bike and helicopter has to stop for me?
fucking amazing.....i must try this!
Fnarf, please tell me other amazing things that 27 years of life has not yet revealed!
fucking amazing.....i must try this!
Fnarf, please tell me other amazing things that 27 years of life has not yet revealed!
23
@19- Bikes don't stop for pedestrians because we can easily go around you. While this story shows that a bike can hit a pedestrian, they usually don't. I ride in control, and if you are crossing the street I'll go behind you or well in front of you or stop if you manage to behave erratically enough that I have to. My only pedestrian/bike impact in a decade of commuting is when some guy making an expansive hand gesture while walking down the Charles River bike path hit me in the face.
You don't have the right of way until you are IN the crosswalk. For fuck's sake, grow a pair and step off the curb. I don't pay attention to people loitering on corners because I don't know what they intend to do. It's this fucking passive-aggressive traffic behavior that drives me nuts.
You don't have the right of way until you are IN the crosswalk. For fuck's sake, grow a pair and step off the curb. I don't pay attention to people loitering on corners because I don't know what they intend to do. It's this fucking passive-aggressive traffic behavior that drives me nuts.
24
How many times must the same stupid arguments be rehashed? You could just repost the comments from the last time a cyclist was in the news.
26
@21 Also, pedestrians only have the right of way at CROSS WALKS. Everywhere else, we're jay-walking.
But does this mean you should just walk out without looking for oncoming traffic? Hell no. Show some common sense, and drive/ride/walk defensively.
But does this mean you should just walk out without looking for oncoming traffic? Hell no. Show some common sense, and drive/ride/walk defensively.
27
@20, not a lie. Not even close to a lie. It's never happened. Cyclists don't stop for peds crossing; they "go around them" like our acrobatic friend Dwight Moody. Because there's nothing confusing to some little old lady trying to cross the street than some guy in a helmet going 30 MPH weaving around her; if she gets confused and stops, it's HER fault, right?
@21, 22: please make an effort not to be stupid. That part is obvious. But widely ignored, and not by the peds, but by the motorists (and cyclists). Both can stop pretty quickly without causing any commotion, but will they? Who can fucking tell? When you're bearing down on me on Stone Way or Leary, there's a hell of a lot of difference in the amount of ground you can cover at 45 MPH (actual speed) versus if you actually start to brake. I usually have a fair idea which you're planning on by the time I'm halfway across. What should I do, run? No. YOU STOP. EVERY FUCKING TIME.
@21, 22: please make an effort not to be stupid. That part is obvious. But widely ignored, and not by the peds, but by the motorists (and cyclists). Both can stop pretty quickly without causing any commotion, but will they? Who can fucking tell? When you're bearing down on me on Stone Way or Leary, there's a hell of a lot of difference in the amount of ground you can cover at 45 MPH (actual speed) versus if you actually start to brake. I usually have a fair idea which you're planning on by the time I'm halfway across. What should I do, run? No. YOU STOP. EVERY FUCKING TIME.
28
@26: false. Every intersection. The only place a pedestrian doesn't have the right of way is in the middle of the block.
My favorite was when the city refused to put a marked crosswalk in the intersection in front of my work. They said "marked crosswalks give pedestrians a false sense of complacency". Stupid assholes, thinking they can cross the street just because the law says so. A coworker was hit there. She had the right of way, and there was plenty of time to stop. Duh.
My favorite was when the city refused to put a marked crosswalk in the intersection in front of my work. They said "marked crosswalks give pedestrians a false sense of complacency". Stupid assholes, thinking they can cross the street just because the law says so. A coworker was hit there. She had the right of way, and there was plenty of time to stop. Duh.
29
The PI story gives the location as S Beacon at College, which would make it an unmarked mid-block crossing. College dead ends before Beacon. There's not intersection there, nor is there a crosswalk. There are no sidewalks and only narrow shoulders. If the PI has the location right, the pedestrian was clearly at fault.
32
Sorry, Fnarf, but in my neck of the woods (the UDistrict), it's not being stupid to point out that pedestrians should not just blithely walk into the street without looking (as @12 originally described). I think it must be all the iPods, but that's probably just because I'm a crotchety old guy with a bricktastic cell phone.
And, yeah, I stop for peds on my bike and in my car. But not as often as I should. I'm a bad man.
And, yeah, I stop for peds on my bike and in my car. But not as often as I should. I'm a bad man.
33
Bicyclists can obey the rules of the road or get fuckin' hit. And good fucking riddance. They're like people insisting on using candles instead of compact flourescent tubes.
34
Ha! You're hilarious. Drivers getting bent out of shape over cyclists and pedestrians is just so funny. You motherfuckers kill EACH OTHER most of all, for fuck's sake.
What really pisses me off is how drivers behave on residential streets. Leary is different both in the width of the street (what is it, six lanes?) and the speed of traffic. Ever tried to cross Queen Anne Ave on top of the hill without taking your own life in your hands? No one stops. NO ONE. Those assholes driving 25 mph who can definitely stop, can definitely see you, just choose not to, because, oh my God, it might hold them up for ten seconds.
and Peds are the most killed.
Ha! You're hilarious. Drivers getting bent out of shape over cyclists and pedestrians is just so funny. You motherfuckers kill EACH OTHER most of all, for fuck's sake.
What I see (and experience) far more often is standing helplessly on the corner as dozens of speeding cars and, yes, bicycles whiz by without so much as a thought to their legally-mandated requirement to STOP AND WAIT.
What really pisses me off is how drivers behave on residential streets. Leary is different both in the width of the street (what is it, six lanes?) and the speed of traffic. Ever tried to cross Queen Anne Ave on top of the hill without taking your own life in your hands? No one stops. NO ONE. Those assholes driving 25 mph who can definitely stop, can definitely see you, just choose not to, because, oh my God, it might hold them up for ten seconds.
35
No Fnarf, you are incorrect. Been a while since you've taken a driving test? Go brush up. I'll even give you the link to the driver guide and the page number (39).
http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/dri…
http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/dri…
37
crap. After having said that, It does say that motorists should be mindful of pedestrians at all intersections, so I guess that counts.
39
@35, taking your own advice I see on page 38 "NOT ALL CROSSWALKS ARE MARKED" and on 39 "a pedestrian crossing a roadway at any point other than a marked crosswalk OR WITHIN AN UNMARKED CROSSWALK AT AN INTERSECTION must yield".
That is consistent with what I'm saying. All intersections are unmarked crosswalks; I typically use the word "crosswalk" to mean marked ones, as does everybody.
But intersections ARE CROSSWALKS. See http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?… and subsequent.
That is consistent with what I'm saying. All intersections are unmarked crosswalks; I typically use the word "crosswalk" to mean marked ones, as does everybody.
But intersections ARE CROSSWALKS. See http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?… and subsequent.
40
@37: hah!
That said, I am sympathetic to the problem with zonked-out clueless pedestrians standing sort of, maybe, possibly, near the corner who are either planning on crossing or maybe just answering their cell phone or jiggling their boobs to keep warm. I run into (er, not literally) this problem every day around Green Lake.
That said, I am sympathetic to the problem with zonked-out clueless pedestrians standing sort of, maybe, possibly, near the corner who are either planning on crossing or maybe just answering their cell phone or jiggling their boobs to keep warm. I run into (er, not literally) this problem every day around Green Lake.
41
There's another link that says this:
1) Every pedestrian crossing a roadway at any point other than within a marked crosswalk or within an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles upon the roadway.
Unfortunately, all the rules and laws in the world can't overcome entrenched notions of what is and what is not a crosswalk unless the police decided to make an effort to enforce it. Fnarf's anecdote @ 28 indicates that they aren't interested.
@ gurldoggie, why don't you go die? Please.
1) Every pedestrian crossing a roadway at any point other than within a marked crosswalk or within an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles upon the roadway.
Unfortunately, all the rules and laws in the world can't overcome entrenched notions of what is and what is not a crosswalk unless the police decided to make an effort to enforce it. Fnarf's anecdote @ 28 indicates that they aren't interested.
@ gurldoggie, why don't you go die? Please.
43
@35 you REALLY believed that the only place a ped can legally cross is in a MARKED crosswalk? Is this a joke? That's the jackassyist of all jackassy things I've heard. today.
jajaja
jajaja
45
Reading about the "I don't see you" method of winning the right of way in unmarked intersections in Mexico (Tom Vanderbilt, Traffic), I use this to help make cars stop for me at intersections. A sly sideways check with the peripheral vision, then march ahead, making a point to not look at the cars coming. Use your hearing to tell if they're slowing down or not. It works great, but you have to really convince them you're going to walk right out in front of them without even looking. If you're like me, carry a baby everywhere too. Adds to the drama and it's cheaper than hiring a nanny.
Of course, if you hear them not slowing down, stop before it's too late. And don't carry a rock in your pocket to throw at their window as they roll past because that's against the law.
By way of helping some of you literal-minded types understand why you see so many "clueless" pedestrians. The fact is you need to slow down and be ready to fucking stop. With the red light cameras everywhere you can't afford to speed anyway, right?
Of course, if you hear them not slowing down, stop before it's too late. And don't carry a rock in your pocket to throw at their window as they roll past because that's against the law.
By way of helping some of you literal-minded types understand why you see so many "clueless" pedestrians. The fact is you need to slow down and be ready to fucking stop. With the red light cameras everywhere you can't afford to speed anyway, right?
46
Cyclists don't usually go 30 MPH fnarf. An average bicycle travels at between roughly 12 - 18 mph.
God knows why I picked on that point in particular.
God knows why I picked on that point in particular.
47
I'm a non-driver, usually a pedestrian, and sometimes cyclist. When i ride on the road it is my right, but then it is my job to obey the rules of the road. I see more prolific cyclists break traffic laws as much as i see it from cars. Cars speed all the time, but cyclists run lights. If no cars are coming cyclists coast through lights and stop signs all the time while i'm waiting there stopped or stopping.
As a pedestrian in Cali, if you have time to stop, and someone is crossing, you do. Cyclists opt to just dodge the pedestrian, and that makes me nervous as hell. I have not seen anything that indicates to me that any of the three groups is any more or less capable of being an asshole than the other. Cyclists who tout the environmental edge will have to do more than not drive a car to prove they love mother earth.
As a pedestrian in Cali, if you have time to stop, and someone is crossing, you do. Cyclists opt to just dodge the pedestrian, and that makes me nervous as hell. I have not seen anything that indicates to me that any of the three groups is any more or less capable of being an asshole than the other. Cyclists who tout the environmental edge will have to do more than not drive a car to prove they love mother earth.
48
@47-"If no cars are coming cyclists coast through lights and stop signs all the time while i'm waiting there stopped or stopping."
How does this cause a problem?
How does this cause a problem?
49
@46, but they CAN go 30 MPH, and do on occasion. I understand why; it's fun. But it's a street, and you should be expecting peds.
50
It's a problem, dwight moody, because the only reason traffic works at all is that almost everyone can be trusted to follow the rules. It is the first step to tearing the whole system apart if you let one kind of traffic blow through intersections on the assumption that it's cool because everyone else is predictably doing the right thing.
Instead of letting bicyclists ignore rules at will, why not say blue cars can get away with whatever they can get away with? Or red cars on Tuesdays and motorcycles on Wednesdays? Disaster.
The reason bicyclists get away with it is that somebody went and gave them the privilege of using public rights of way without the responsibility of holding a drivers license.
Instead of letting bicyclists ignore rules at will, why not say blue cars can get away with whatever they can get away with? Or red cars on Tuesdays and motorcycles on Wednesdays? Disaster.
The reason bicyclists get away with it is that somebody went and gave them the privilege of using public rights of way without the responsibility of holding a drivers license.
51
Motorists should stop, but that doesn't mean they will. Like Fnarf, I can tell which ones will and which ones won't. The difference is that I know when to run or jump out of the way. The letter of the law is not a forcefield.
52
In my town, Baltimore, no pedestrians use the cross walks and jay walking is only a crime from 7am to 7pm. And no, they don't bother to look at traffic; they turn their backs to it in scornful defiance. I've taken to cycling close and quietly behind them and then shouting "heads up". It never fails to spill the latte.
53
@50- I see absolutely no reason why cars or bikes should have to sit idle at empty intersections waiting for traffic lights. Your argument is "if you ignore a rule, no matter how pointless, everything falls apart." We all know that isn't true. For proof, look at how traffic has frozen in gridlock despite all the bicyclists ignoring lights and motorists who don't quite come to a full stop at stop signs, and NO ONE follows the speed limit.
And I do have a driver's license, and the cops could pull me over and ticket me for my bike riding. They just don't, because I don't break the law in front of cops.
And I do have a driver's license, and the cops could pull me over and ticket me for my bike riding. They just don't, because I don't break the law in front of cops.
54
Belgium and the Netherlands have nearly identical demographics: education, income, rural/urban, etc. But one has a significantly higher rate of ignoring traffic rules, perhaps tied to a higher rate of government corruption, and in theory, less overall respect for the law.
Guess which one has more people die on the roads? That's the reason, Dwight.
Guess which one has more people die on the roads? That's the reason, Dwight.
55
@ 36 "Like a happy track biker rider on meth..."
I imagine you have first hand experience, right troll?
I imagine you have first hand experience, right troll?
56
I just wonder how many people who are posting tremendously insightful comments over at the PI realize that South College is not even a road where it intersects with Beacon Avenue S. but rather a steep pedestrian stairway that emerges from blackberry brambles. Beacon Avenue is very steep here and traffic regularly travels at 40 mph+ which is excessive but not unusual. A lot of people mistakenly believe that this road is Holgate. There is no crosswalk and the sidewalk is discontinuous on both sides of the street. Just sayin'.
57
Bicyclists' small-mindedness always astounds me. I'm a runner and cyclist, so I never forget that cyclists need to be just as vigilant in avoiding pedestrians as larger vehicles must be in avoiding cyclists--even moreso, as pedestrians are essentially exposed and defenseless. The rule is simple: EXPECT the UNEXPECTED with pedestrians, and always be prepared to adjust. Once when I was going for a run on a shared path, an older woman (walker) made an erratic move to the middle of the path, so I carefully ran around her. A cyclist attempting to pass the both of us did not take the same care, and ended up smacking my shoulder. I was fine, but the cyclist bit it and broke a wrist (and a bike frame). The lesson? Follow the rules and look out for others.
58
@14
I've been hit by a cyclist on the sidewalk too. It hurt.
I think the take-home here is that people are capable of being careless and/or assholes regardless of their method of transportation. :)
I've been hit by a cyclist on the sidewalk too. It hurt.
I think the take-home here is that people are capable of being careless and/or assholes regardless of their method of transportation. :)
60
Can cyclist just follow the traffic laws? How many times do I see a cyclist fly through a red light? Not a cyclist are hipster, self-righteous, law ignoring, "fixie" riding, bastards. Just the ones in Seattle.
61
@ 55 I DO have first hand experience and let me tell you, you actually do stop ONLY to twist and turn my lovely little pipe and puff the magic dragon, why did they take my bathrooms away?
62
Bikes and cars don't mix. Bikes shouldn't be on streets.
Bikes and Pedestrians don't mix. Walkers shouldn't be on bike trails and bikes shouldn't be on (busy) sidewalks.
The bottom line is everyone is too cheap and too lazy to build and do it right.
63
I like breaking traffic laws and going faster than cars on my bike. I like getting places quicker than cars. I like going places for free. I like parking my bike in front of wherever I'm going, not looking for parking and paying to park my car. I like feeling fit. I like occasionally being scared because I'm going 50mph down Olive.
64
I bike commute every day. I run every stop light and stop sign I safely can. EVERY SINGLE ONE. I've never hit a ped, never been close to getting hit by a car.
http://bikeportland.org/2009/01/14/idaho…
Seattle needs to enact an Idaho stop provision. I hear McGinn bikes, maybe he'll be amenable. It'd certainly shut you righteous assholes up. Maybe.
You know what's amazing? Shitloads of people ride their bikes around the city every goddamned day, and accidents are crazy few and far between. Shit ain't broke, people.
http://bikeportland.org/2009/01/14/idaho…
Seattle needs to enact an Idaho stop provision. I hear McGinn bikes, maybe he'll be amenable. It'd certainly shut you righteous assholes up. Maybe.
You know what's amazing? Shitloads of people ride their bikes around the city every goddamned day, and accidents are crazy few and far between. Shit ain't broke, people.
65
@ 64 I totally agree with a law that allows bikers to yield at stop signs. But not red lights. As the FAQ section of the above article stated, red lights pose a much higher danger. But thanks for the link.
66
Are people being sarcastic when they say "the pedestrian is always right?"
I just can't buy in to that (if you are being serious). The pedestrian can be careless to the point of it being a crime, just like any driver. A careless pedestrian can be the cause of car crashes, and be completely at fault.
I walk a lot. I'm a little paranoid about doing stupid things out there. Like texting while walking. While crossing streets. That is way dumb. Have to tell myself to pull over to do it, just like cars and bikers should.
I just can't buy in to that (if you are being serious). The pedestrian can be careless to the point of it being a crime, just like any driver. A careless pedestrian can be the cause of car crashes, and be completely at fault.
I walk a lot. I'm a little paranoid about doing stupid things out there. Like texting while walking. While crossing streets. That is way dumb. Have to tell myself to pull over to do it, just like cars and bikers should.
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