Tuesday, November 3, 2009
Savage Love Savage Love Letter of the Day
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 1:40 PM
I'm a 22-year-old bi guy with a preference for males. My last relationship was with a female with whom I've stayed friends. Since we broke up we've been hooking up maybe once a month. The first two times she said she didn't want to hook up anymore, but she kept initiating sex. I like sex, so I went along with it. This continued after she started seeing someone (I didn't know at first) and she felt guilty the first time, but then seemed okay with it: I assumed that she had discussed it with her bisexual BF. She invited me to engage in a threesome with her and her BF, and thereafter I was fucking both her and him independently of each other every two weeks, which my ex thought was sexy. The sex continued to be initiated by both of them, not me, although I wanted it. Soon, my ex's BF encouraged me to pursue a romantic relationship with him, with his current GF, my ex, having primacy. I assumed that he had okayed it with his GF. It didn't take long to realize that he was incapable of having two relationships at once and he stopped fucking me because he was afraid of "using" me, even though it was consensual. My ex also stopped having sex with me (although the BF had okayed the sex) and began to ignore me as a friend.
The rest of the letter and my response after the jump...
When I confronted her about this, she said she was mad at me for the brief, attempted relationship with her BF. When I indicated that it was her BF's idea and that it was his responsibility to make sure it was okay with her, she responded that her BF can do whatever he wants. She has also been distancing herself from me b/c she believes we can't be friends without me wanting sex from her when the reality is that I had only been expecting sex from her because she kept initiating. She said she considers all her initiations to be mistakes and says she always felt like crap after. Obviously there has been some major communication problems... where did I go wrong?It Takes Two Or Three To Tango
You made two highly convenient and awfully self-serving assumptions there, ITTOTTT.
When you continued to fuck your ex after she started seeing someone else you "assumed that she had discussed" fucking you with her new bisexual BF; when you started to pursue a romantic relationship with your ex-girlfriend's bisexual boyfriend—only after the threesome because you're gentlemanly like that—you "assumed he had okayed it" with your ex. While you were under no obligation to make certain that the two of them were being honest with each other, ITTOTTT, you failed to do your poly due diligence and your failure disqualifies you from playing the victim. All you had to do was ask a few questions: "So your BF/GF is okay with this? You talked two talked about this? He/she knows about me and what we're up to, right?" You didn't ask those questions and I think we both know why: If the answer in either case was "no," ITTOTTT, then you couldn't have continued to sleep with both these people with a semi-clear conscience. You assumed they were doing the right thing because you didn't want to find out they weren't.
Sorry, ITTOTTT, but the ethical slut—if I may borrow a phrase/title—doesn't just assume that his sex partners are being honest with their sex partners. He asks questions and demands proof; he trusts but verifies. Or failing that, ITTOTTT, the semi-ethical slut takes some responsibility for the ensuing shitstorm when it turns out that his self-serving assumptions were inaccurate.
In short: an already messy situation was made messier by the assumptions you made, ITTOTTT, as your assumptions allowed both these affairs to go on longer than they coulda, woulda, shoulda.
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1
Agree on all your points, Dan. But he also failed the due diligence test when his ex told him she thought those hook-ups were mistakes and he didn't follow up with her as to 'why' those hook-ups were mistakes. If he had gotten to the bottom of her issues before hooking up with the BF, then the rest of the problems might not have come up.
2
So he was only having sex with his ex because "she initiated" and he "likes sex"? If that's really the case (and not some residual feelings post-breakup) he shouldn't have any problems walking away from this poly shit storm and finding a new girl or guy to fuck on a semi-regular basis.
Run away, ITTOTTT, and don't look back. Also, don't pull this shit again.
Run away, ITTOTTT, and don't look back. Also, don't pull this shit again.
3
No such thing as a bisexual. Oh, I take that back; but they're as rare as hermaphrodites. Whatever KInsey said (so long ago), sexual orientation is as black and white as is gender identity. Of course you can act however you want; that doesn't change what you are.
5
Kudos to Dan for trying to figure this shit out, but I'm too dizzy reading the question. No way I'll be able to follow the answer.
7
@4: Sort of. I keep getting the feeling that ITTOTTT knew that if he didn't actually ensure everything was vetted and OK, he wouldn't have had this perfect scenario in the first place. So he just shut his eyes and went "lalalala" and just hoped it wouldn't blow up in his face until he got a few fucks in.
9
"I'm a 22-year-old bi guy with a preference for males. My last relationship was with a female with whom I've stayed friends. Since we broke up we've been hooking up maybe once a month. "
Sorry, my head just exploded trying to make sense of your preferences.
Sorry, my head just exploded trying to make sense of your preferences.
11
Find new friends to fuck/hang out with and if the first two ever come around again, then so much the better.
12
this is so confusing. I nearly got lost in this dude's explanation. It sounds to me like this girl is more important to him as a friend than as a lover. So he really shouldn't hook up with her or her BFs.
15
Geez! Who can keep track? What you need is an orgy. Then everyone can fuck everyone and see it for themselves. Can I bring my camera?
16
I don't understand.
Monogamy is so unnatural and unrealistic-
these kids were poster childs for hip open non-monogamous bliss...
they had nature on their side-
what could go wrong?
Monogamy is so unnatural and unrealistic-
these kids were poster childs for hip open non-monogamous bliss...
they had nature on their side-
what could go wrong?
17
@ 5/6/10/12/15
I can't keep up with this man whore either. All I got was that he keeps sticking his dick places and there's a lot of complicated drama surrounding it. Here's my advice: simplify the life, pal, and you won't have to be writing long, convoluted tales to online sex advice columnists.
I can't keep up with this man whore either. All I got was that he keeps sticking his dick places and there's a lot of complicated drama surrounding it. Here's my advice: simplify the life, pal, and you won't have to be writing long, convoluted tales to online sex advice columnists.
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Mike Please tell me what makes you think that sexual orientation is "black and white as is gender identity." Or how you arrive at your judgement that there is "No such thing as a bisexual." As a self identifed bisexual, I'm really interested ......
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I think ITTOTTT is pronounced "idiot." Dan, great call on doing one's own due diligence. The first poly relationship I engaged in I was super cautious to get the ok of her spouse, and if I'm dating someone whose dating someone else I always ask questions to know where that's at, what level of comfort folks have. It's not just common courtesy, it's empathy for one's partners.
@3 Speaking of idiots, you are an idiot. Kinsey's work generally looks at behavior, and his earliest work found bisexuality to be common. The Kinsey Institute claims: "In a national survey, 90% of men aged 18-44 considered themselves to be heterosexual, 2.3% as homosexual, 1.8% as bisexual, and 3.9% as 'something else' while among women aged 18-44 in the same survey, 90% said they were heterosexual, 1.3% homosexual, 2.8% bisexual, and 3.8% as 'something else.'" That is, among men and women, 10% of the population considers themselves not heterosexual. 1.8% of men and 2.8% of women identify as bisexual, while another 3.9% of men and 3.8% of women are really "something else."
Intersexuality is much less prevalent. According to the Intersex Society of North America 1 in 1666 births is not XX or XY (0.06%) and 1 to 2 people in a 1000 (0.1 to 0.2%) receive surgery to normalize the appearance of their genitals, which is a decision made shortly after birth. Assuming that 0.2% of the population are "hermaphrodites" (an ambiguous term) and none of the folks who identify as "something else" are bisexual, than bisexuality is 16.5 times more prevalent then intersexuality. Of course, the numbers don't matter... you're argument is one of marginalization. One's experience matters regardless of it commonness or rarity.
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@3 Speaking of idiots, you are an idiot. Kinsey's work generally looks at behavior, and his earliest work found bisexuality to be common. The Kinsey Institute claims: "In a national survey, 90% of men aged 18-44 considered themselves to be heterosexual, 2.3% as homosexual, 1.8% as bisexual, and 3.9% as 'something else' while among women aged 18-44 in the same survey, 90% said they were heterosexual, 1.3% homosexual, 2.8% bisexual, and 3.8% as 'something else.'" That is, among men and women, 10% of the population considers themselves not heterosexual. 1.8% of men and 2.8% of women identify as bisexual, while another 3.9% of men and 3.8% of women are really "something else."
Intersexuality is much less prevalent. According to the Intersex Society of North America 1 in 1666 births is not XX or XY (0.06%) and 1 to 2 people in a 1000 (0.1 to 0.2%) receive surgery to normalize the appearance of their genitals, which is a decision made shortly after birth. Assuming that 0.2% of the population are "hermaphrodites" (an ambiguous term) and none of the folks who identify as "something else" are bisexual, than bisexuality is 16.5 times more prevalent then intersexuality. Of course, the numbers don't matter... you're argument is one of marginalization. One's experience matters regardless of it commonness or rarity.
25
And hey, it isn't like he's the one responsible for all this sex--they initiated! Or to put it another way--Why do all these homosexuals keep sucking my cock?
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/335…
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/335…
28
Shit, it's only three people fucking each other, whats so hard to follow about that folks? I think ITTOTTT explained it well. He fucks his ex and her new BF. Sort of sounds like fun way to say "fuck you" to both of them.
30
My favorite part is where this girl apparently only dates bi guys... didn't know there were really all that many of them for it to just be a coincidence...
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@30 Could be a coincidence, could not. I've mostly dated bisexual women, without specifically seeking them out. The few straight women I've gone out with I've found to be a little dull and usually stop dating them after 2-3 dates, with one exception, a straight woman I dated for 4 months. I guess you could say my type is queer.
33
@3: Well, you've got me convinced. You've obviously done way more research on the subject than that amateur Kinsey ever did. I'll just go stop being attracted to both men and women now...oh wait.
Sexual orientation is only "black and white" if you round off all deviation from the two extremes, which is just silly and a rather sophomoric approach to something as complex as human sexuality.
Sexual orientation is only "black and white" if you round off all deviation from the two extremes, which is just silly and a rather sophomoric approach to something as complex as human sexuality.
34
I think you nailed it Dan. It sounds like ITTOTTT was being willfully ignorant regarding the communication between his ex and her new BF. He was getting to fuck both of them, and the less he knew, the better... until it all blows up in his face.
35
@3, 26 - So if I enjoy having sex with a woman, making her come, her making me come, and also enjoy having sex with a man, making him come, him making me come, where does that leave me? Was one of those sexual encounters somehow less valid? Who decides? Clearly you do, since you seem to consider yourself to have the authority to determine my sexuality for me...
Honestly, it's a lot easier to make the case that every human being shows some degree of bisexuality than it is to make the case that sexuality could ever be a white-or-black, straight-or-gay, male-or-female set of rigid binaries.
Then again, I feel like you're probably just messing with us easily-offended bis.
Honestly, it's a lot easier to make the case that every human being shows some degree of bisexuality than it is to make the case that sexuality could ever be a white-or-black, straight-or-gay, male-or-female set of rigid binaries.
Then again, I feel like you're probably just messing with us easily-offended bis.
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@35 We may be easily offended, but we're also good with math, can turn a phrase, and are dead sexy. Oh, and humble.
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@ Theo
I should've preceded my comment with "IMO" (sans "H" BTW), since I'm only speaking from the point of view of an old fart with lots of opinions. IMO, a real bisexual is a rare and beautiful creature. I've never met one. I've met lots and lots of people who have claimed to be exceptions to the gay/straight dichotomy, but every single one of them (100%, for those who demand figures) has turned out to be either gay (as time proved), or temporarily "open-minded" (mostly women, but some well-meaning hipster guys also), or self-hating closet cases. Don't get me wrong! I hear that bisexuals exist, just as I hear there are people with both sets of sex organs, or even the wrong sex organs. I just haven't met them, you! If you're a real life bisexual, good for you! The world would be a better place if we were all that way.
@B Strand
You misunderstand me. I'm not speaking of what people "identify" as. Most reasonable people would agree that a gay fella who's in the closet and squeezing out babies like kidney stones is still gay. None of the self-identified bisexuals that I've known have turned out to be bisexual in the end. They were either confused or in denial, straight or gay. That's not something that Kinsey could correct for. My sample is scientifically small, but that doesn't mean that Kinsey's flawed approach was any better. Someday someone will figure a way to test actual sexual attraction, and will apply this to an appropriate section, but until then - the truth persists.
@ lymerae
Yay, I wish I was you (assuming you're not "confused or in denial")! What a sexy world it must be for you. "Where does that leave me?" Well, you're bisexual, I guess (I hear they exist, despite my skepticism), but why does it matter? The validity of your sexual encounters is only known by you. Nobody "decides". I have absolutely no authority to determine your sexuality. Why do you need for it to be determined? It's true that sexuality is complicated, but it's also true that some things in nature are just black or white (with little gem-like bands of beautiful gray in between, you!). Trust your elder.
Please go have sex with whomever you want, and try not to feel dirty afterward. As I will, so mote it be.
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I should've preceded my comment with "IMO" (sans "H" BTW), since I'm only speaking from the point of view of an old fart with lots of opinions. IMO, a real bisexual is a rare and beautiful creature. I've never met one. I've met lots and lots of people who have claimed to be exceptions to the gay/straight dichotomy, but every single one of them (100%, for those who demand figures) has turned out to be either gay (as time proved), or temporarily "open-minded" (mostly women, but some well-meaning hipster guys also), or self-hating closet cases. Don't get me wrong! I hear that bisexuals exist, just as I hear there are people with both sets of sex organs, or even the wrong sex organs. I just haven't met them, you! If you're a real life bisexual, good for you! The world would be a better place if we were all that way.
@B Strand
You misunderstand me. I'm not speaking of what people "identify" as. Most reasonable people would agree that a gay fella who's in the closet and squeezing out babies like kidney stones is still gay. None of the self-identified bisexuals that I've known have turned out to be bisexual in the end. They were either confused or in denial, straight or gay. That's not something that Kinsey could correct for. My sample is scientifically small, but that doesn't mean that Kinsey's flawed approach was any better. Someday someone will figure a way to test actual sexual attraction, and will apply this to an appropriate section, but until then - the truth persists.
@ lymerae
Yay, I wish I was you (assuming you're not "confused or in denial")! What a sexy world it must be for you. "Where does that leave me?" Well, you're bisexual, I guess (I hear they exist, despite my skepticism), but why does it matter? The validity of your sexual encounters is only known by you. Nobody "decides". I have absolutely no authority to determine your sexuality. Why do you need for it to be determined? It's true that sexuality is complicated, but it's also true that some things in nature are just black or white (with little gem-like bands of beautiful gray in between, you!). Trust your elder.
Please go have sex with whomever you want, and try not to feel dirty afterward. As I will, so mote it be.
40
@ jade, honey
I don't know much about this internet stuff, to be honest, but even if I saw a "hide" by your name, I wouldn't click it, you. I appreciate a diversity of opinions and avoid circle jerks and echo chambers. I've offended you, I guess. Didn't mean to, but please do hide me if my remarks dim your day in any way.
I don't know much about this internet stuff, to be honest, but even if I saw a "hide" by your name, I wouldn't click it, you. I appreciate a diversity of opinions and avoid circle jerks and echo chambers. I've offended you, I guess. Didn't mean to, but please do hide me if my remarks dim your day in any way.
41
Mike C:
Humphhhh! You are coming across as condescending and more than a tad judgemental. "Trust your elder" forsooth!
Humphhhh! You are coming across as condescending and more than a tad judgemental. "Trust your elder" forsooth!
42
@ jade, honey
I don't know much about this internet stuff, to be honest, but even if I saw a "hide" by your name, I wouldn't click it, you. I appreciate a diversity of opinions and avoid circle jerks and echo chambers. I've offended you, I guess. Didn't mean to, but please do hide me if my remarks dim your day in any way.
I don't know much about this internet stuff, to be honest, but even if I saw a "hide" by your name, I wouldn't click it, you. I appreciate a diversity of opinions and avoid circle jerks and echo chambers. I've offended you, I guess. Didn't mean to, but please do hide me if my remarks dim your day in any way.
43
MIke C:
"Trust your elder?" "Try not to feel dirty afterwards?"
You are coming across as condescending. I hope it is unintentional ....
If nature or sexuality or anything else seems to be black and white to you, I suspect that happens as a result of the framing devices through which you perceive.
"It is your mind that constructs the world."
"Trust your elder?" "Try not to feel dirty afterwards?"
You are coming across as condescending. I hope it is unintentional ....
If nature or sexuality or anything else seems to be black and white to you, I suspect that happens as a result of the framing devices through which you perceive.
"It is your mind that constructs the world."
44
@ 3
... really? huh, that's so interesting, considering the fact that there are a lot of other psychologists such as Klein for instance who agree with Kinsey on many levels--and even surpass him in their psychological research on bisexuality.
Also, who ever said that gender identity was black and white? Haven't you ever heard of someone who was androgynous?
Nothing is purely black and white. Even your own thumbnail betrays that theory.
... really? huh, that's so interesting, considering the fact that there are a lot of other psychologists such as Klein for instance who agree with Kinsey on many levels--and even surpass him in their psychological research on bisexuality.
Also, who ever said that gender identity was black and white? Haven't you ever heard of someone who was androgynous?
Nothing is purely black and white. Even your own thumbnail betrays that theory.
45
It seems to me that it "all went wrong" at the moment they stopped putting out for ITTOTTT. Prior to that, everything was perfect. He had, count them, *5 HOLES* to plug. Who the hell cares who was lying to whom or who was emotionally in knots.
The good news for ITTOTTT is, there are a million different holes to plug out there waiting for him. And they're new, undiscovered holes. Pick up, brush of the dust, and get back in the saddle.
The good news for ITTOTTT is, there are a million different holes to plug out there waiting for him. And they're new, undiscovered holes. Pick up, brush of the dust, and get back in the saddle.
46
@ hlr
I'm not an expert. You're right that there is a lot that is not black or white. But you must concede that there is much that is. Is a woman pregnant? Or no? Is the sun up? Do I have a penis? It's cool and all to think that these questions engender profound thought, but sometimes they just don't. Right now, in my hometown, the sun is absolutely not up. Any thought given to whether it is actually "not up" is thought wasted. Look into my pants and tell me that there is any question as to whether there is an organ commonly understood to be a penis. Did you hesitate? Thoughts wasted.
Agonize over the twilight if you must (didn't I rhapsodize about the gem-like gray area?), but that's wasted science. Crepuscular creatures and unicorns don't make up the greater variety of our beautiful brethren.
I'm not an expert. I never said I was. I'll let you know what I think, and you can take it or leave it.
@ Theo
I've also offended you? I didn't mean to condescend. I really meant it when I said I envied you.
I'm not an expert. You're right that there is a lot that is not black or white. But you must concede that there is much that is. Is a woman pregnant? Or no? Is the sun up? Do I have a penis? It's cool and all to think that these questions engender profound thought, but sometimes they just don't. Right now, in my hometown, the sun is absolutely not up. Any thought given to whether it is actually "not up" is thought wasted. Look into my pants and tell me that there is any question as to whether there is an organ commonly understood to be a penis. Did you hesitate? Thoughts wasted.
Agonize over the twilight if you must (didn't I rhapsodize about the gem-like gray area?), but that's wasted science. Crepuscular creatures and unicorns don't make up the greater variety of our beautiful brethren.
I'm not an expert. I never said I was. I'll let you know what I think, and you can take it or leave it.
@ Theo
I've also offended you? I didn't mean to condescend. I really meant it when I said I envied you.
47
The fact that you've been willing to put your dick in both boys and girls doesn't make you a bisexual. (It just means, like ITTOTTT, that you like sex.) The fact that you're occasionally attracted to people who are not of your primary preference doesn't make you a bisexual. Kinsey understood that sexuality was a continuum, but that doesn't mean that someone who's attracted to guys eighty percent of the time and occasionally sees a girl she likes, or a guy who dates girls so he can tell himself he's not gay and enjoys their company, is "bisexual." By that logic, everyone is bisexual, which is both true and a functionally useless definition.
48
"Is a woman pregnant?" That reminds me of the morning-after pill debate over whether or not it is abortion....Is pregnancy about having a fertilized egg in you? Is it about the medical definition: when has the egg implanted? Or the most important question: how do you know in either case until weeks or months after it happens?
Is the sun up? Where on earth are you standing? How much light must come over the horizon before you decide it is 'up'? (and I assure you it is a continuum). How cloudy is it?
Do I have a penis? How strictly do you define it? Do you have to pee through it? Get it up? How long does it have to be? What if part of it is detached from you through an accident? What if you're a hermaphrodite?
In all of these cases, there is a definite 'yes' and a definite 'no', but there ARE shades of gray in all three cases. The important point is that people only care about shades of gray if they are IN the gray area. While all of the above may be 'thoughts wasted' FOR YOU and RIGHT NOW, surely you can admit that for other people these questions are completely relevant (i.e. a woman who just had the condom break, someone waiting for the crack of dawn on a very cloudy day, someone who had their penis crushed in an accident). You should just count yourself lucky that you don't currently have to worry 'do I have a penis?' and hope you don't ever have to ask that question in the future. Because if or when you ask it, it won't be about 'the greater variety' of people out there, but it will be among the greater variety of things YOU care about i.e....you.
Is the sun up? Where on earth are you standing? How much light must come over the horizon before you decide it is 'up'? (and I assure you it is a continuum). How cloudy is it?
Do I have a penis? How strictly do you define it? Do you have to pee through it? Get it up? How long does it have to be? What if part of it is detached from you through an accident? What if you're a hermaphrodite?
In all of these cases, there is a definite 'yes' and a definite 'no', but there ARE shades of gray in all three cases. The important point is that people only care about shades of gray if they are IN the gray area. While all of the above may be 'thoughts wasted' FOR YOU and RIGHT NOW, surely you can admit that for other people these questions are completely relevant (i.e. a woman who just had the condom break, someone waiting for the crack of dawn on a very cloudy day, someone who had their penis crushed in an accident). You should just count yourself lucky that you don't currently have to worry 'do I have a penis?' and hope you don't ever have to ask that question in the future. Because if or when you ask it, it won't be about 'the greater variety' of people out there, but it will be among the greater variety of things YOU care about i.e....you.
49
@48
Mel, you are a fucking saint. Urine flows through my "penis" daily, and it is engorged with blood when Mr. Mudede posts pictures (of course). I'll post a picture of this phenomenon if necessary. Is it a penis? Yes or no?
Black or white?
Mel, you are a fucking saint. Urine flows through my "penis" daily, and it is engorged with blood when Mr. Mudede posts pictures (of course). I'll post a picture of this phenomenon if necessary. Is it a penis? Yes or no?
Black or white?
50
The question about what people are 'really' attracted to is about what sends signals to their crotches. This sounds like a 'duh' kind of question, but wait: for many people this might not matter! The subconscious-to-crotch-blood-flow question is a perfectly logical thing to research because it is a simple, easily-defined question, and there are very easy hypotheses to make based on evolution and how body type relates to reproductive potential. Based on this measurement, there may very well be one primary gender (and probably smell, body type, body language etc.) that gets the blood flowing in any one person. However, this only explains PART of sexual attraction and sexual behavior because people have a greater or lesser capacity for sexual attraction that originates in their HEADS (kinky situations, for example). This is NOT studied because neuroscience and meaningful psychology are still very new fields that we don't yet know to this depth.
Especially in people who have more imagination or fluctuating hormone levels (i.e. the signals from their crotches ebb and flow over time), why is it so hard to believe that sometimes people would be attracted to one gender and sometimes the other? Or that something ELSE about the situation is what turns them on and gender is purely secondary? Honestly, I think the reason more women identify as bisexual is because there is more originating in our heads about sex relative to our crotches, as a general rule. Whether this is about lower average testosterone levels (i.e. our heads aren't drowned out by our crotches) or the fact that we're more imaginative or have hormones that fluctuate more regularly or something else, I don't know. On a related note, there's generally less 'homosexual panic' among women than there is among guys because even among gay-tolerant guys, much of their subconscious self-worth can be about being straight and fitting into that 'dominating' gender role. Panic can be a real mood-killer, huh? So hook some electrode up to my pussy and monitor which types of images flip that subconscious switch that makes blood flow increase down there. I don't care because ALL things considered, I may prefer to sleep with someone else. If a situation turns me on, I'll use my hand to get the blood flow going downstairs rather than waiting for my crotch to tell me I'm horny. Either way, the end result is similar.
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Especially in people who have more imagination or fluctuating hormone levels (i.e. the signals from their crotches ebb and flow over time), why is it so hard to believe that sometimes people would be attracted to one gender and sometimes the other? Or that something ELSE about the situation is what turns them on and gender is purely secondary? Honestly, I think the reason more women identify as bisexual is because there is more originating in our heads about sex relative to our crotches, as a general rule. Whether this is about lower average testosterone levels (i.e. our heads aren't drowned out by our crotches) or the fact that we're more imaginative or have hormones that fluctuate more regularly or something else, I don't know. On a related note, there's generally less 'homosexual panic' among women than there is among guys because even among gay-tolerant guys, much of their subconscious self-worth can be about being straight and fitting into that 'dominating' gender role. Panic can be a real mood-killer, huh? So hook some electrode up to my pussy and monitor which types of images flip that subconscious switch that makes blood flow increase down there. I don't care because ALL things considered, I may prefer to sleep with someone else. If a situation turns me on, I'll use my hand to get the blood flow going downstairs rather than waiting for my crotch to tell me I'm horny. Either way, the end result is similar.
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@49...we are agreeing, but I'm not clear on whether you are aware of that. My point is that what you call your crotch is allegedly black and white for you. I am also happy with what to call my genetalia. No thought devoted. Other people are more conflicted about theirs, though, and they don't give a fuck if it's a black and white issue for us.
In addition to black/white vs. 'shades of grey', there are other things (colorless? this analogy is about to collapse), such as what I would call your crotch. These are things that don't even merit the thought it takes to categorize them because you will never know the answer...or care about knowing it. For me to call yours a penis, I'd have to meet you in person, see it in action, and then you'd have to prove that the person writing as MikeC was the person attached to that penis ;) And for me to care, I'd probably have to like or hate you. Could be fun, but all in all, not worth the time it takes to consider it. Anyway, it was fun pondering shades of gray for a bit, but in about 2 seconds I'm going to get back to work and everything but the project I'm working on is going to fall into the realm of 'not considered' :)
In addition to black/white vs. 'shades of grey', there are other things (colorless? this analogy is about to collapse), such as what I would call your crotch. These are things that don't even merit the thought it takes to categorize them because you will never know the answer...or care about knowing it. For me to call yours a penis, I'd have to meet you in person, see it in action, and then you'd have to prove that the person writing as MikeC was the person attached to that penis ;) And for me to care, I'd probably have to like or hate you. Could be fun, but all in all, not worth the time it takes to consider it. Anyway, it was fun pondering shades of gray for a bit, but in about 2 seconds I'm going to get back to work and everything but the project I'm working on is going to fall into the realm of 'not considered' :)
52
Mike C:
OK - maybe you don't mean to condescend. It would help me to see your point of view if you asked questions - instead of passing judgements like "thoughts wasted."
For what it's worth, I think seeing shades of grey is a benefit to the world - but then I think rigid binaries like man/woman are part of the way oppression is perpetuated in the world. I'll check this thread tomorrow for a response - I'm going to get some sleep.
OK - maybe you don't mean to condescend. It would help me to see your point of view if you asked questions - instead of passing judgements like "thoughts wasted."
For what it's worth, I think seeing shades of grey is a benefit to the world - but then I think rigid binaries like man/woman are part of the way oppression is perpetuated in the world. I'll check this thread tomorrow for a response - I'm going to get some sleep.
53
@47 - Why would saying that all human beings show some degree of sexual attraction to both genders make bisexuality a "functionally useless" term? On the contrary, I think it's very useful to be able to say that human sexuality, at its core, is of a bisexual nature.
"that doesn't mean that someone who's attracted to guys eighty percent of the time and occasionally sees a girl she likes, or a guy who dates girls so he can tell himself he's not gay and enjoys their company, is "bisexual." "
Then what DOES it mean to be bisexual? What is our marker? Would you really propose a statistical breakdown as the proof of bisexuality (for example, if 80/20 is unacceptable, maybe 45/55)? Who gets to decide such things, and why would they be vested with the authority to do so?
In my mind, sexual orientation, like religion, should ultimately be a matter of identity. You identify as a Christian/Jew/Muslim? Very nice, good for you, we can go on with our day. You identify as gay/straight/bisexual/queer? Great, terrific, live and let live. What do we really have to gain by judging other people by arbitrary parameters, instead of allowing them to identify for themselves? I agree that people shouldn't blindly fool themselves (claiming to be bisexual when they're really just afraid of coming totally out of the closet), but in the end, I don't know what trying to decide FOR them is going to achieve. People have to arrive at their sexual identity on their own terms.
"that doesn't mean that someone who's attracted to guys eighty percent of the time and occasionally sees a girl she likes, or a guy who dates girls so he can tell himself he's not gay and enjoys their company, is "bisexual." "
Then what DOES it mean to be bisexual? What is our marker? Would you really propose a statistical breakdown as the proof of bisexuality (for example, if 80/20 is unacceptable, maybe 45/55)? Who gets to decide such things, and why would they be vested with the authority to do so?
In my mind, sexual orientation, like religion, should ultimately be a matter of identity. You identify as a Christian/Jew/Muslim? Very nice, good for you, we can go on with our day. You identify as gay/straight/bisexual/queer? Great, terrific, live and let live. What do we really have to gain by judging other people by arbitrary parameters, instead of allowing them to identify for themselves? I agree that people shouldn't blindly fool themselves (claiming to be bisexual when they're really just afraid of coming totally out of the closet), but in the end, I don't know what trying to decide FOR them is going to achieve. People have to arrive at their sexual identity on their own terms.
54
@39 You discount behavior as well? My first comment in this thread had this key sentence regarding behavior before any stats, "Kinsey's work generally looks at behavior, and his earliest work found bisexuality to be common." Which is to say, Kinsey found 11.6% of white males aged 20–35 7% of single females aged 20–35 were 3s on the Kinsey Scale (equally heterosexual and homosexual).* The smallest sample of folks who are bisexual is those who identify as bisexual, as a not insignificant number of folks are attracted to some men and some women but identify as either straight or gay.
Regardless of whether you think I exist or not, or merely discount me as "rare," I do in fact exist. Denying who I am is a lie I am not willing to stomach.
*Kinsey, et al. 1948. Sexual Behavior in the Human Male, Table 147, p. 651
and Kinsey, et al. 1953. Sexual Behavior in the Human Female, Table 142, p. 499
Regardless of whether you think I exist or not, or merely discount me as "rare," I do in fact exist. Denying who I am is a lie I am not willing to stomach.
*Kinsey, et al. 1948. Sexual Behavior in the Human Male, Table 147, p. 651
and Kinsey, et al. 1953. Sexual Behavior in the Human Female, Table 142, p. 499
55
MikeC, did you really look at all the genitals of the thousands of people you've met during your life, and determine that none of them were intersexed?
56
@46: MikeC: I love your big brass ones and your simple it's-time-for-facts-bitches conviction. Attractive on any man, to any gender on the greyscale.
Ahem.
However, I must respectfully disagree: your examples are all tangibles: the sun, your penis, the woman (that you presumably impregnated with your sun-drenched penis...). Yes, you can 'prove they exist or not' quite easily: reach out and feel them. Open eyes and see them. Use calibrated instruments and measure or detect them. I'll grant they may be very black and white.
Sexuality is not tangible. Sexuality, bi or otherwise, isn't something that appears on an ultrasound, or orbits the heavens, nor hangs between your legs. It's not in a box with a convenient label: It's in one's soul, their mind, their spirit,...whathaveyou- just as much as their favorite color, or what they dream about, or what taste gives them a foodgasm.
There are many boys who like girls but would drop their pants for a special shortlist of angelic men (Mr. Depp appears on most folk's list, I'd wager), - they may identify as straight or bi or metro or leaning. And there are straight girls that would go down on a select upper eschelon of beautiful women (Ms Jolie, your name has come up on a few girls' lists: perhaps you and Mr Depp could oblige and have little celebrity lovechildren. Bi, preferably.)
There are indeed boys who go either way, and if they find love in a gay boy that doesn't mean they've turned 'gay': it means they found love in someone they were attracted to. If a bi single girl starts identifying herself as lesbian, it may be because she gave up trying to defend herself against the hate for bi's that so many bigotty dykes & straight folk harbor. Is she attracted to both girls and boys? If the answer is yes, she's bi, even while she hangs at the wildrose on her motorcycle talking about the Storm.
In other words, MOST sexualities fall amid Kinsey's greyscale. however I don't think everyone should claim to be bisexual, but I certainly wouldn't make the mistake of thinking the moderate aka 50/50 bi's are as rare as hermaphrodites.
And If people in your life have been disingenuous about being bi, maybe you should take a closer look at the signals you're sending that might attract such folk. In my life, I've dated 6 bi folks (and may have slept with half of them). I currently work with 3 ladies that are bi (one calls herself bi experienced/straight virginal), one femme bi boy, and one guy who defines himself as "bi-willing for the right demigod". My cousin is gay and she married a bi gal. Is her wife bisexual? My grocer is f2m trans and had a gf both before and after the change: what would you call her/him in that black/white world? Grey makes more sense. Full color's even better.
Many government forms and even more old minds like ours haven't caught up yet, but here's hoping. Bisexuality isn't the tooth fairy: it's just rare - like a labradoodle.
More...
Ahem.
However, I must respectfully disagree: your examples are all tangibles: the sun, your penis, the woman (that you presumably impregnated with your sun-drenched penis...). Yes, you can 'prove they exist or not' quite easily: reach out and feel them. Open eyes and see them. Use calibrated instruments and measure or detect them. I'll grant they may be very black and white.
Sexuality is not tangible. Sexuality, bi or otherwise, isn't something that appears on an ultrasound, or orbits the heavens, nor hangs between your legs. It's not in a box with a convenient label: It's in one's soul, their mind, their spirit,...whathaveyou- just as much as their favorite color, or what they dream about, or what taste gives them a foodgasm.
There are many boys who like girls but would drop their pants for a special shortlist of angelic men (Mr. Depp appears on most folk's list, I'd wager), - they may identify as straight or bi or metro or leaning. And there are straight girls that would go down on a select upper eschelon of beautiful women (Ms Jolie, your name has come up on a few girls' lists: perhaps you and Mr Depp could oblige and have little celebrity lovechildren. Bi, preferably.)
There are indeed boys who go either way, and if they find love in a gay boy that doesn't mean they've turned 'gay': it means they found love in someone they were attracted to. If a bi single girl starts identifying herself as lesbian, it may be because she gave up trying to defend herself against the hate for bi's that so many bigotty dykes & straight folk harbor. Is she attracted to both girls and boys? If the answer is yes, she's bi, even while she hangs at the wildrose on her motorcycle talking about the Storm.
In other words, MOST sexualities fall amid Kinsey's greyscale. however I don't think everyone should claim to be bisexual, but I certainly wouldn't make the mistake of thinking the moderate aka 50/50 bi's are as rare as hermaphrodites.
And If people in your life have been disingenuous about being bi, maybe you should take a closer look at the signals you're sending that might attract such folk. In my life, I've dated 6 bi folks (and may have slept with half of them). I currently work with 3 ladies that are bi (one calls herself bi experienced/straight virginal), one femme bi boy, and one guy who defines himself as "bi-willing for the right demigod". My cousin is gay and she married a bi gal. Is her wife bisexual? My grocer is f2m trans and had a gf both before and after the change: what would you call her/him in that black/white world? Grey makes more sense. Full color's even better.
Many government forms and even more old minds like ours haven't caught up yet, but here's hoping. Bisexuality isn't the tooth fairy: it's just rare - like a labradoodle.
57
Kinsey's research is notoriously flawed, and there are a lot of people who claim to be closer to a Kinsey 3 than their actions indicate. However, all that means is that the numbers are inflated. Peoples actual behaviors, so long as they're on the up-and-up with everybody they're involved in, aren't worth fussing about.
One thing that's been kicking around inside my head, though. "Straight", insofar as it communicates any information to anybody, says that anybody of the same sex has no real chance. "Gay" communicates that opposite-sex folks are better off not wasting their time. Self-identification aside, at what dating ratio would you consider someone "informationally bi", in that you wouldn't tell a friend of whatever gender that making a pass would be wasting their time?
One thing that's been kicking around inside my head, though. "Straight", insofar as it communicates any information to anybody, says that anybody of the same sex has no real chance. "Gay" communicates that opposite-sex folks are better off not wasting their time. Self-identification aside, at what dating ratio would you consider someone "informationally bi", in that you wouldn't tell a friend of whatever gender that making a pass would be wasting their time?
59
Theo @ 52,
This may be out of line, but it has been my experience when interacting with Mike that he has a very unique and intelligent sense of humor, and all though his opinion may differ, he is a generous and thoughtful person and doesn't seek to offend.
I hope that I wasn't out of line.
Take care,
k
This may be out of line, but it has been my experience when interacting with Mike that he has a very unique and intelligent sense of humor, and all though his opinion may differ, he is a generous and thoughtful person and doesn't seek to offend.
I hope that I wasn't out of line.
Take care,
k
60
Hey Kim:
You are not out of line at all. And I am quite willing to debate or discuss Mike C. However, I am cranky about being told I don't exist. Or shouldn't exist .....
May you be well and happy, Kim. And, for that matter, Mike C . And everyone else who reads Slog. Yes, that includes LC - if ze were well and happy, ze wouldn't have to operate from a place of fear.....
You are not out of line at all. And I am quite willing to debate or discuss Mike C. However, I am cranky about being told I don't exist. Or shouldn't exist .....
May you be well and happy, Kim. And, for that matter, Mike C . And everyone else who reads Slog. Yes, that includes LC - if ze were well and happy, ze wouldn't have to operate from a place of fear.....
61
Bi guys, often hot and great in the sack, and also often dumb as a box of rocks and full of shit.
Bring it on bitches!
Bring it on bitches!
62
@Theo.
He didn't say you don't exist, you overly sensitive fop. He said you're a rare and wonderful thing.
He didn't say you don't exist, you overly sensitive fop. He said you're a rare and wonderful thing.
63
Amazing how you can have a column on a bonafide bisexual dilemma and STILL people in the thread are arguing whether bisexuals exist.
I'm going to start saying gays don't exist every time Dan writes about being gay or advises a gay inquiry. It doesn't matter how many gays write in--gays don't exist.
Kinsey's research was flawed, therefore gays don't exist.
Gays having gay sex aren't gay. The fact that gays are willing to put their dicks into men doesn't make them gay. They just like sex. They're just horny and greedy.
You need a Fuck Tree to keep track of where the gays put their kahks. The gay guys I've known have one thing in common. They're all flakes. IMO a real gay guy is a rare and beautiful creature. I've never met one.
Is a woman pregnant? Do I have a penis? Are you sure you've never met an intersex person? Not that it matters because gays don't exist.
Now don't you-all be overly-sensitive fops about this.
I'm going to start saying gays don't exist every time Dan writes about being gay or advises a gay inquiry. It doesn't matter how many gays write in--gays don't exist.
Kinsey's research was flawed, therefore gays don't exist.
Gays having gay sex aren't gay. The fact that gays are willing to put their dicks into men doesn't make them gay. They just like sex. They're just horny and greedy.
You need a Fuck Tree to keep track of where the gays put their kahks. The gay guys I've known have one thing in common. They're all flakes. IMO a real gay guy is a rare and beautiful creature. I've never met one.
Is a woman pregnant? Do I have a penis? Are you sure you've never met an intersex person? Not that it matters because gays don't exist.
Now don't you-all be overly-sensitive fops about this.
64
If you define "bisexuality" as an ability to be aroused by members of either sex at any given time, then bisexuality doesn't exist. Unfortunately, human sexuality doesn't work that way.
Scenario 1: A sheltered, small-town girl goes away to college. During her freshman year, she has sex with three guys- a frat boy with an overdeveloped sense of self-esteem("cool guy"), a waiflike hipster who keeps a knife hidden on him at all times ("bad boy") and a flat-out geek("nerdy chic"). The one thing they have in common-none of them are able or willing to satisfy her libido. Frustrated by an inability to reach orgasm with another person, one night she impulsively/drunkenly makes out with another young woman at an off-campus party. As the morning rises, she wakes up, notices that her sheets are soaked with *their* fluids (not just the spend of her boyfriends) and realizes that she's a lesbian. Two years later, after a drawn out relationship with orgasmic highs and depressive/abusive lows, she gets dumped by her girlfriend and decides to try "dick" once more. Her target proves to be an adept lover (despite the fact that she wasn't aroused or sated by a man's dick before her lesbian relationship), and they live happily ever after until/unless he cheats on her and they have a knock down, drag out divorce and battle for custody of their children. Is she bisexual, or was the touch of a patient lover required to teach her about her body's erotic responses? If she's straight, then why would she have spent more than a year with the same woman? If she's a lesbian, then why did she end up married to a man?
Scenario 2: During a "business lunch" with a friend of mine (a self-admitted, and thanks to my help a newly experienced bisexual woman), we eavesdrop on a conversation between two gay men. It seems that the blond man is eagerly spilling the beans to his friend about some guy they're calling the "bathhouse breeder". Apparently, a certain man visited the local bathhouse on a weekly basis. During his visits, the man had a tendency to sit in the porn-viewing room and masturbate to gay porn, and he'd quickly insert himself into a voyeuristic position at any hint of open play between the other patrons of the bathhouse. However, he never took the initiative to mingle or ingratiate himself with the other patrons in any manner other than watching the live or taped action. On the few occasions in which he'd allow himself to be coerced or cajoled into joining a patron or four in the dark room or the showers, his (apparently impressive) flesh quickly proved itself to be weaker than expected. And, of course, his inability to relax long enough to be penetrated by *anything* (even with the use of chemicals) confused them thoroughly. He wasn't a top, he wasn't a bottom and he was too standoffish to be considered "versatile". And (this conversation having taken place in a major city with a low minority population) he didn't even show anything resembling a fetishistic attraction to the few non-European men who entered the establishment. He didn't gawk at overendowed men or coo over the underendowed, he didn't geek out over the muscle men, fawn over twinks or follow the bears. As far as they knew, he was as close to asexual as a man could get. Then the blond one tells his friend that he ran into "Mr. Asexual" at his job a few days prior to their lunch. "Mr. Asexual" had his wife and four children in tow, and "Mr. Asexual" had no problem with telling "Mrs. Asexual" about where he met the storyteller. Suffice to say, even I was shocked at the idea of a "non-gay gay" man admitting to his wife that he knew a male stranger from his experiences at a gay bathhouse. The hint of morbid curiosity that entered the voice of the blond man as he described the wife's interest in him (the blond man) was icing on a very confusing cake. So, is "Mr. Asexual" an actual bisexual, or is he the type of man who'd literally *do anything* for his wife's edification? If it's the latter, then why would he travel to a "taboo" area to get stories for his wife when they were living in a country in which he could have easily brought a man home so that his wife could watch them together? And how "straight" can a man be if he's able to be aroused by other men, whether his body's up to the challenge of taking it further or not?
Bottom line (heh, I said "bottom"), sexuality isn't as black and white as we'd like to think. In a world that's full of "LUGs", Arabic men who have sex with each other until they can afford a wife of their own, GGG husbands who can't be aroused by the touch of other men but can be aroused and bring themselves to orgasm at the idea of their wives watching them as they masturbate to gay porn., "bisexual" female swingers who enter the "lifestyle" and only choose to enjoy other women (while claiming that their husband is 'man enough for them' one minute, then complaining about how their husbands 'can't get them off' as soon as they've finished off their third glass of wine) and people of both sexes who switch attractions every three years (three years being made airtight by a boyfriend and two of his friends, three years getting fisted/G-spot massaged by slim-wristed "former" soccer moms), who's to say what's "normal" sexuality?
If a guy gets hard whenever he smells pussy, but he also gets hard when he's spanking a new "pledge", is he bisexual? If a woman wouldn't suck a man's cock if it was made from diamonds, but she's able to soak through a couch cushion whenever she watches another woman being spitroasted by two men (and not by two women with strap-ons, I have to be specific), is she suddenly bisexual as well? If the guy who gets hard when he smells pussy is willing to suck (and "enjoy") a dozen dicks to be given access to an attractive woman, is he "gay" for sucking that many dicks for one specific woman who he knows nothing about when he could probably find another one, or is he "straight, but determined" for being willing to put cocks in his mouth to have a shoot at _Her_? If the woman who wouldn't suck a man's cock is given the opportunity to watch another woman made airtight in front of her very eyes (and even direct the action!), but her payment for being the director is to do everything in her power to make the men erect (for the sake of argument, she uses Fleshlights and naughty words), is she secretly straight for allowing herself to please men or is *she* a "gay, but determined" woman for satisfying/inflaming the passions of the men so that they may give her the best show?
And, seeing as how the majority of the comments place a lot of emphasison bisexuality being determined by lifetime behaviours, do the same rules apply if a person spends their entire life having sex with their own gender for the opportunity to satisfy their own libidos with a member of the opposite gender? Or vice versa? If a man is able to engage in all sorts of same-sex acts as long as a woman's present but suffers from a "failure to launch" as soon as she leaves his sensory range, is he bisexual? If a woman juices like crazy as her male lover watches her being eaten out by another woman, but dries up when he goes to another room to get another memory card, is she bisexual? Even if their FFM encounters never proceed to the man in question having sex with either woman? Eventually, it becomes an even dirtier version of the "Hunter and the bears" joke.
Seriously, it's all in the eye of the beholder. And this rant is proof positive of my sexual dorkitude.
P.S.-As straight as I'd like to believe I am, I'd fuck the holy bejesus out of this man.
http://oneasianworld.com/blog/BiRain%20n…
In public, with my family and friends watching and recording the festivities, for free. Hot is hot.
More...
Scenario 1: A sheltered, small-town girl goes away to college. During her freshman year, she has sex with three guys- a frat boy with an overdeveloped sense of self-esteem("cool guy"), a waiflike hipster who keeps a knife hidden on him at all times ("bad boy") and a flat-out geek("nerdy chic"). The one thing they have in common-none of them are able or willing to satisfy her libido. Frustrated by an inability to reach orgasm with another person, one night she impulsively/drunkenly makes out with another young woman at an off-campus party. As the morning rises, she wakes up, notices that her sheets are soaked with *their* fluids (not just the spend of her boyfriends) and realizes that she's a lesbian. Two years later, after a drawn out relationship with orgasmic highs and depressive/abusive lows, she gets dumped by her girlfriend and decides to try "dick" once more. Her target proves to be an adept lover (despite the fact that she wasn't aroused or sated by a man's dick before her lesbian relationship), and they live happily ever after until/unless he cheats on her and they have a knock down, drag out divorce and battle for custody of their children. Is she bisexual, or was the touch of a patient lover required to teach her about her body's erotic responses? If she's straight, then why would she have spent more than a year with the same woman? If she's a lesbian, then why did she end up married to a man?
Scenario 2: During a "business lunch" with a friend of mine (a self-admitted, and thanks to my help a newly experienced bisexual woman), we eavesdrop on a conversation between two gay men. It seems that the blond man is eagerly spilling the beans to his friend about some guy they're calling the "bathhouse breeder". Apparently, a certain man visited the local bathhouse on a weekly basis. During his visits, the man had a tendency to sit in the porn-viewing room and masturbate to gay porn, and he'd quickly insert himself into a voyeuristic position at any hint of open play between the other patrons of the bathhouse. However, he never took the initiative to mingle or ingratiate himself with the other patrons in any manner other than watching the live or taped action. On the few occasions in which he'd allow himself to be coerced or cajoled into joining a patron or four in the dark room or the showers, his (apparently impressive) flesh quickly proved itself to be weaker than expected. And, of course, his inability to relax long enough to be penetrated by *anything* (even with the use of chemicals) confused them thoroughly. He wasn't a top, he wasn't a bottom and he was too standoffish to be considered "versatile". And (this conversation having taken place in a major city with a low minority population) he didn't even show anything resembling a fetishistic attraction to the few non-European men who entered the establishment. He didn't gawk at overendowed men or coo over the underendowed, he didn't geek out over the muscle men, fawn over twinks or follow the bears. As far as they knew, he was as close to asexual as a man could get. Then the blond one tells his friend that he ran into "Mr. Asexual" at his job a few days prior to their lunch. "Mr. Asexual" had his wife and four children in tow, and "Mr. Asexual" had no problem with telling "Mrs. Asexual" about where he met the storyteller. Suffice to say, even I was shocked at the idea of a "non-gay gay" man admitting to his wife that he knew a male stranger from his experiences at a gay bathhouse. The hint of morbid curiosity that entered the voice of the blond man as he described the wife's interest in him (the blond man) was icing on a very confusing cake. So, is "Mr. Asexual" an actual bisexual, or is he the type of man who'd literally *do anything* for his wife's edification? If it's the latter, then why would he travel to a "taboo" area to get stories for his wife when they were living in a country in which he could have easily brought a man home so that his wife could watch them together? And how "straight" can a man be if he's able to be aroused by other men, whether his body's up to the challenge of taking it further or not?
Bottom line (heh, I said "bottom"), sexuality isn't as black and white as we'd like to think. In a world that's full of "LUGs", Arabic men who have sex with each other until they can afford a wife of their own, GGG husbands who can't be aroused by the touch of other men but can be aroused and bring themselves to orgasm at the idea of their wives watching them as they masturbate to gay porn., "bisexual" female swingers who enter the "lifestyle" and only choose to enjoy other women (while claiming that their husband is 'man enough for them' one minute, then complaining about how their husbands 'can't get them off' as soon as they've finished off their third glass of wine) and people of both sexes who switch attractions every three years (three years being made airtight by a boyfriend and two of his friends, three years getting fisted/G-spot massaged by slim-wristed "former" soccer moms), who's to say what's "normal" sexuality?
If a guy gets hard whenever he smells pussy, but he also gets hard when he's spanking a new "pledge", is he bisexual? If a woman wouldn't suck a man's cock if it was made from diamonds, but she's able to soak through a couch cushion whenever she watches another woman being spitroasted by two men (and not by two women with strap-ons, I have to be specific), is she suddenly bisexual as well? If the guy who gets hard when he smells pussy is willing to suck (and "enjoy") a dozen dicks to be given access to an attractive woman, is he "gay" for sucking that many dicks for one specific woman who he knows nothing about when he could probably find another one, or is he "straight, but determined" for being willing to put cocks in his mouth to have a shoot at _Her_? If the woman who wouldn't suck a man's cock is given the opportunity to watch another woman made airtight in front of her very eyes (and even direct the action!), but her payment for being the director is to do everything in her power to make the men erect (for the sake of argument, she uses Fleshlights and naughty words), is she secretly straight for allowing herself to please men or is *she* a "gay, but determined" woman for satisfying/inflaming the passions of the men so that they may give her the best show?
And, seeing as how the majority of the comments place a lot of emphasison bisexuality being determined by lifetime behaviours, do the same rules apply if a person spends their entire life having sex with their own gender for the opportunity to satisfy their own libidos with a member of the opposite gender? Or vice versa? If a man is able to engage in all sorts of same-sex acts as long as a woman's present but suffers from a "failure to launch" as soon as she leaves his sensory range, is he bisexual? If a woman juices like crazy as her male lover watches her being eaten out by another woman, but dries up when he goes to another room to get another memory card, is she bisexual? Even if their FFM encounters never proceed to the man in question having sex with either woman? Eventually, it becomes an even dirtier version of the "Hunter and the bears" joke.
Seriously, it's all in the eye of the beholder. And this rant is proof positive of my sexual dorkitude.
P.S.-As straight as I'd like to believe I am, I'd fuck the holy bejesus out of this man.
http://oneasianworld.com/blog/BiRain%20n…
In public, with my family and friends watching and recording the festivities, for free. Hot is hot.
65
@30
I keep ending up with bi guys, without specifically seeking them out. Like B_Strand said, I think my type is queer.
I keep ending up with bi guys, without specifically seeking them out. Like B_Strand said, I think my type is queer.
66
Milbury, goddamn! I said goddamn!! Your post is the most thorough, beautifully reasoned, articulated treatises on bisexuality that I've read in a long, long time. Thank you.
And yes, darling, sexy is sexy. That's it. I've stopped trying to figure my sexuality out. I know what I like and I know when I like it. I've stopped worrying about proving my bonafides to closed-minded douche bags of both sexes and both orientations quite awhile ago, but still. Fucking fantastic post.
It's too bad you probably won't see this.
And yes, darling, sexy is sexy. That's it. I've stopped trying to figure my sexuality out. I know what I like and I know when I like it. I've stopped worrying about proving my bonafides to closed-minded douche bags of both sexes and both orientations quite awhile ago, but still. Fucking fantastic post.
It's too bad you probably won't see this.
68
So this guy is bi and everyone wants to fuck him. Does he actually have a problem? Or is he just making it sound like he has a problem so he can boast?
69
@68: Agreed. Boo hoo, bi guy - you were having so much great sex before, but now you're not. THAT'S CALLED LIFE, MOTHERFUCKER.
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