Tuesday, October 27, 2009
Crime Lord of the Flies
Posted by Charles Mudede on Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 8:28 AM
This is so horrible. Truly, horrible:
A California high school student who police said was gang raped in a two-and-a-half-hour assault outside a homecoming dance remained hospitalized in stable condition Monday, two days after she was flown from the attack scene in critical condition...The punishment should be harsher for those who watched the crime than those who committed it....Investigators said as many as 15 people, all males, stood around watching the assault, but did not call police or help the victim, a 15-year-old student at Richmond High School in suburban San Francisco.
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6
I still can't understand how you can raise a child that can commit this kind of crime. 15? Christ.
11
something emailed to me a few months ago:
How to Prevent Rape
If a woman is drunk, don’t rape her.
If a woman is walking alone at night, don’t rape her.
If a women is drugged and unconscious, don’t rape her.
If a woman is wearing a short skirt, don’t rape her.
If a woman is jogging in a park at 5 am, don’t rape her.
If a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you’re still hung up on, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in her bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in your bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is doing her laundry, don’t rape her.
If a woman is in a coma, don’t rape her.
If a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman is not yet a woman, but a child, don’t rape her.
If your girlfriend or wife is not in the mood, don’t rape her.
If your step-daughter is watching TV, don’t rape her.
If you break into a house and find a woman there, don’t rape her.
If your friend thinks it’s okay to rape someone, tell him it’s not, and that he’s not your friend.
If your “friend” tells you he raped someone, report him to the police.
If your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there’s an unconscious woman upstairs and it’s your turn, don’t rape her, call the police and tell the guy he’s a rapist.
Tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, sons of friends it’s not okay to rape someone.
Don’t tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape.
Don’t imply that she could have avoided it if she’d only done/not done x.
Don’t imply that it’s in any way her fault.
Don’t let silence imply agreement when someone tells you he “got some” with the drunk girl.
Note:
This goes for any gendered rape, male on female or female on male or female on female or FTM on MTF or non gendered to dual gendered and so on and so forth….
-author unknown
More...
How to Prevent Rape
If a woman is drunk, don’t rape her.
If a woman is walking alone at night, don’t rape her.
If a women is drugged and unconscious, don’t rape her.
If a woman is wearing a short skirt, don’t rape her.
If a woman is jogging in a park at 5 am, don’t rape her.
If a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you’re still hung up on, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in her bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in your bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is doing her laundry, don’t rape her.
If a woman is in a coma, don’t rape her.
If a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman is not yet a woman, but a child, don’t rape her.
If your girlfriend or wife is not in the mood, don’t rape her.
If your step-daughter is watching TV, don’t rape her.
If you break into a house and find a woman there, don’t rape her.
If your friend thinks it’s okay to rape someone, tell him it’s not, and that he’s not your friend.
If your “friend” tells you he raped someone, report him to the police.
If your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there’s an unconscious woman upstairs and it’s your turn, don’t rape her, call the police and tell the guy he’s a rapist.
Tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, sons of friends it’s not okay to rape someone.
Don’t tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape.
Don’t imply that she could have avoided it if she’d only done/not done x.
Don’t imply that it’s in any way her fault.
Don’t let silence imply agreement when someone tells you he “got some” with the drunk girl.
Note:
This goes for any gendered rape, male on female or female on male or female on female or FTM on MTF or non gendered to dual gendered and so on and so forth….
-author unknown
12
Thinking about the people who just stand and watch definitely summons a different kind of disgust. It's not worse or better, I guess, simply because it's hard to think of anything more disgusting, but you definitely want to single them out as absolutely disgusting people.
13
The more loose our societal values become or are eroded the more sad stories like this one will see. Parents can only expect worse challenges ahead of them, so they must become thoroughly involved in their child's life and that includes the schools they attend. The sooner more parents realize this and join others to do away with this sort of criminal behavior in schools and in our neighborhoods the faster we will be able to stamp out this scourge that has been brought by a culture of over-sexualization and libertine sexual practices.
Great care needs to be taken by those with girls, it's become tougher, to protect them, no doubt.
Great care needs to be taken by those with girls, it's become tougher, to protect them, no doubt.
14
This took place in Richmond? Loveschild, they were YOUR people, weren't they? They societal values that they're missing have nothing to do with imaginary "libertine sexual practices" and everything to do with poverty and the breakdown of the family in minority communities. It's not the gays, Loveschild, as much as you'd like to blame them for your own failings. But the fact that you're blaming the gays tells us volumes about your own pathology and bigotry.
16
These events always seem to be random violent crimes that come out of nowhere. But there has to be much more story that we will ever hear. Was someone out to get this girl? Was she regarded as a snitch? It seems unlikely that this is totally random with the awful fact that so many stood around watching and did nothing.
17
@ 14, LC seems to believe that America was a land of cotton candy and unicorns where nothing bad ever happened before those uppity fags started asking to be treated equally. No, gang rapes never happened before this.
I'm reminded of feminist arguments against porn in the '80s. It's not a culture of misogyny or machismo that allows things like this to happen, it's that one thing I'm trying to ban or keep banned!
Newsflash for LC: this sort of thing has happened for a very long time, and is no reflection whatsoever on what's happening in the larger society.
@ 16, check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_e…
I'm reminded of feminist arguments against porn in the '80s. It's not a culture of misogyny or machismo that allows things like this to happen, it's that one thing I'm trying to ban or keep banned!
Newsflash for LC: this sort of thing has happened for a very long time, and is no reflection whatsoever on what's happening in the larger society.
@ 16, check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_e…
18
Leave it to Charles to turn a horrifying tragedy into a call for incenting people to participate in crimes they see, lest the be prosecuted more harshly for merely being a witness.
Yes to prosecuting those who watched and did nothing. No to telling them "you should have raped her too, so you would have gotten off easier."
Yes to prosecuting those who watched and did nothing. No to telling them "you should have raped her too, so you would have gotten off easier."
19
@18: Whoa, what? I think you're the only one who's read it that way.
Anyway, if we're into weird, twisted interpretations, how about all the people who agree the bystanders should be prosecuted as harshly as the participants? Yes to telling them, "Hey, if you're going to get a sentence equivalent to a rape, might as well get all the sick enjoyment of rape"?
See how crazy that sounds?
Anyway, if we're into weird, twisted interpretations, how about all the people who agree the bystanders should be prosecuted as harshly as the participants? Yes to telling them, "Hey, if you're going to get a sentence equivalent to a rape, might as well get all the sick enjoyment of rape"?
See how crazy that sounds?
20
17 has it right: clear evidence of the bystander effect. Short version: the more people there are witnessing something, the less likely any of them are to act on it. Everyone kinda assumes that someone else will speak up about it, and thus none of them do. Sad fact of social psychology. Read the wikipedia article for more information
The bystanders in this case should be punished, but not as severely as the actual rapists, and definitely not more severely.
In practice, this means that in the event of an emergency, shouting "Call 911!" is a bad idea. Point to someone in specific, make eye contact, tell him specifically to call 911. If you tell everyone to, there will be confusion and inactivity; single someone out and they should be able to react more quickly.
The bystanders in this case should be punished, but not as severely as the actual rapists, and definitely not more severely.
In practice, this means that in the event of an emergency, shouting "Call 911!" is a bad idea. Point to someone in specific, make eye contact, tell him specifically to call 911. If you tell everyone to, there will be confusion and inactivity; single someone out and they should be able to react more quickly.
21
The ultimate result of bros before hos. This happens in gang rape situations all the time. Men who wouldn't otherwise rape are drawn into it to avoid looking like pussies in front of the bonafide rapists and other non-participating men do nothing for the same reason. Fuck the bystander effect.
22
The rapists should receive the harshest punishment. The bystanders should also be punished, but not worse than the rapists.
That said, the brains of 15 year olds are not fully developed. They do things rational people wouldn't do, and they don't even understand or know why they do it.
That said, the brains of 15 year olds are not fully developed. They do things rational people wouldn't do, and they don't even understand or know why they do it.
23
Five bucks says the non-participants cheered it on.
Interesting that the bystander effect also applies after the fact.
"As people announced over time that this was going on, more people came to see, and some actually participated," Gagan said.
Five bucks says the non-participants cheered it on.
The victim was found unconscious and "brutally assaulted" under a bench shortly before midnight Saturday, after police received a call from someone in the area who had overheard people at the assault scene "reminiscing about the incident," Gagan said.
Interesting that the bystander effect also applies after the fact.
24
Keshmeshi also has a point. We don't know all the facts yet, but I bet we see non-rapists who did nothing and non-rapists who egged it on... although given how long this went on, I'm betting that the eggers all eventually participated.
25
Five hundred strokes with a cane for every one of them.
An extra one hundred strokes across the face for any that took pictures or video.
Loveschild, you seem strangely subdued today. You only IMPLIED that homosexuality was to blame for this heterosexual gang rape instead of trying to draw an overt and nonsensical causal chain of events. Is everything okay, honey?
An extra one hundred strokes across the face for any that took pictures or video.
Loveschild, you seem strangely subdued today. You only IMPLIED that homosexuality was to blame for this heterosexual gang rape instead of trying to draw an overt and nonsensical causal chain of events. Is everything okay, honey?
26
Disgusting. In arguments against retributivism (punishing a crime in kind, i.e., killing a murderer) the unfeasibility of this type of justice is often demonstrated by citing cases of rape: "what do you do? Rape the rapist?" In this case, I think that would be reasonable. Sentence these little monsters to be publicly gang raped; the ones who participated could be sodomized, those who watched could maybe be subject to some bukkake and forced fellatio...
27
Instead of saying "maybe she snitched" or maybe it was a gang initiation, when are people going to start saying "maybe we need to teach men, women, boys, and girls that RAPE IS WRONG"? There is NO WAY that being raped and beaten until you have to be flown to the hospital is your fault. It's the fault of those who beat you and those who chose to rape you and those who stood around and watched and did NOTHING.
29
@19: Charles said "The punishment should be harsher for those who watched the crime than those who committed it."
Maybe you're right and I misinterpreted it. I hope so; it seems particularly nonsensical, even for Charles. How do you interpret his suggestion?
Maybe you're right and I misinterpreted it. I hope so; it seems particularly nonsensical, even for Charles. How do you interpret his suggestion?
31
Just as a point of light, and despite the melodramatic harbingers of some, we're still in a low trend when it comes to frequency of rape incidents.
I'd like to know the specifics of this one incident, and better understand why it happened, whether it was a matter of some kind of herd mentality, or was motivated by street gang action. The possibility that a bunch of kids just aped out (to coin a phrase) is far scarier to me than the thought that an organized gang conspired to make it happen, as a form of initiation or revenge ploy. I'd really rather believe a conscious decision happened than a bunch of guys got drunk on testosterone.
As one who believes it isn't the place of the state or of the department of corrections to exact revenge, (making an example of these kids isn't going to better help the victim, nor reduce incidents, nor reform these kids into anything but lifetime criminals), I'd be more for rehabilitating them, if the resources to do so are available. It'd be a major victory if each and every one of them at some point down the line personally and sincerely apologized to the victim for his wrongdoing.
But if it makes any difference to any of you, civilization may have lost this battle, but we're winning the war. More sexual assaults are reported. Fewer are committed. Of those committed, more get arrested and convicted than any era in the past. It's still not a good era to be a woman, but it's the best we've had.
I'd like to know the specifics of this one incident, and better understand why it happened, whether it was a matter of some kind of herd mentality, or was motivated by street gang action. The possibility that a bunch of kids just aped out (to coin a phrase) is far scarier to me than the thought that an organized gang conspired to make it happen, as a form of initiation or revenge ploy. I'd really rather believe a conscious decision happened than a bunch of guys got drunk on testosterone.
As one who believes it isn't the place of the state or of the department of corrections to exact revenge, (making an example of these kids isn't going to better help the victim, nor reduce incidents, nor reform these kids into anything but lifetime criminals), I'd be more for rehabilitating them, if the resources to do so are available. It'd be a major victory if each and every one of them at some point down the line personally and sincerely apologized to the victim for his wrongdoing.
But if it makes any difference to any of you, civilization may have lost this battle, but we're winning the war. More sexual assaults are reported. Fewer are committed. Of those committed, more get arrested and convicted than any era in the past. It's still not a good era to be a woman, but it's the best we've had.
32
@29: On an absolute level, of course standing by is not the same as committing a crime. But there's something extra sick about knowing enough not to commit a crime, but implicitly condoning it and reaping enjoyment from it anyway.
I think that according to normal expectations, we'd believe that anyone who isn't freakin' *raping a teenage girl* would, by default, have enough morality to call the police. We want to think, "It wouldn't take much, right?" But apparently it does; the people who stopped -- hell, came by ON PURPOSE -- and watched just utterly demolishes that idea.
I think Charles called for harsher punishment for them because the people who watched are a weird monster ... they've got one foot in our door in that they didn't commit a crime. Where does the other foot go? Can't be with the rapists, because they didn't *do* anything. They're scary because it means there isn't just a big thick line between Crazy Sick Rapists and Decent People ... but some creepy amalgam in the middle that's harder to isolate.
Anyway, I dunno. I guess it'd be pretty fair if you call bullshit on me too (seriously). But I think Charles is right in basically saying that there's something extra sick about standing by (I guess I can't disagree his way was not the best way of putting it, but I still say it's a good, visceral reaction). After all, we remember Kitty Genovese and not the hundreds if not thousands of other rape/murder victims -- and she was ignored, not made a show.
I think that according to normal expectations, we'd believe that anyone who isn't freakin' *raping a teenage girl* would, by default, have enough morality to call the police. We want to think, "It wouldn't take much, right?" But apparently it does; the people who stopped -- hell, came by ON PURPOSE -- and watched just utterly demolishes that idea.
I think Charles called for harsher punishment for them because the people who watched are a weird monster ... they've got one foot in our door in that they didn't commit a crime. Where does the other foot go? Can't be with the rapists, because they didn't *do* anything. They're scary because it means there isn't just a big thick line between Crazy Sick Rapists and Decent People ... but some creepy amalgam in the middle that's harder to isolate.
Anyway, I dunno. I guess it'd be pretty fair if you call bullshit on me too (seriously). But I think Charles is right in basically saying that there's something extra sick about standing by (I guess I can't disagree his way was not the best way of putting it, but I still say it's a good, visceral reaction). After all, we remember Kitty Genovese and not the hundreds if not thousands of other rape/murder victims -- and she was ignored, not made a show.
33
@26: I vote for all of them to be impaled rectally or peritoneally with blunt stakes, hoisted in the air, and exposed to the elements until they have rotted away to skeletons. Those who merely watched should be strangled after 2 hours; those who participated should be allowed to perish from exposure or internal injuries. Who's with me?
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