Friday, October 23, 2009
Religion Who Said It?
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 9:01 AM
Holy fucking shit:
"Islamic fundamentalists clearly understand the damage that homosexual behavior inflicts on a culture. This is why they repress such behavior by death... It may be brutal at times, but any culture that is able to produce wave after wave of suicide bombers... is a culture that at least knows how to value self sacrifice."
Murdering gays and lesbians may be brutal at times? It may be? At times? You think? Find out who said it by clicking here.
Share via
1
Somehow I think the whole "love your neighbor as yourself" and "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" message got lost on these people.
2
Um, that's horrifying, but not surprising. I wouldn't be surprised if many bishops within the church hold similar views but are too politically astute to air them in public.
PS I was hoping this came from someone more prominent for PR purposes if nothing else.
PS I was hoping this came from someone more prominent for PR purposes if nothing else.
4
Am I wrong to see a bit of Freudian projection on the part of this guy? Betcha both that he's covered up a large island's worth of child molestation, and that he's committed a bunch himself.
6
Now Savage wants to meddle into the affairs of the Guamanian people by taking comments out of context to further his agenda. No, he couldn't.
New colonialism, new forced implementation of foreign ideologies, same superiority complex mindset that has caused so much suffering in the past.
New colonialism, new forced implementation of foreign ideologies, same superiority complex mindset that has caused so much suffering in the past.
7
I wonder what all that vile rhetoric is compensating for? I mean, it's very obvious that the guy really, really hates sex.
8
I KNEW IT! @ 6, always eager to excuse violence and murder by any means, when it's directed at gays and lesbians.
See you in Hell, LC.
See you in Hell, LC.
9
So, so sick. Far more direct than that lovely letter the US Bishops are sending out to be read to the faithful, just in time for voting. Why do proclaimed people of faith feel the need to legislate hate and encourage violence .... WTF?
10
Dang. You have to have a serious case of callous, cynical patriarchal hubris to praise a culture for generating suicide bombers. Can we talk about the damage religion does to a culture instead?
In other news, Loveschild: this is about "the Guamanian people"? Really? You don't think that's a bit of a reach? I'm sorry, but you definitely have jumped the shark at this point.
In other news, Loveschild: this is about "the Guamanian people"? Really? You don't think that's a bit of a reach? I'm sorry, but you definitely have jumped the shark at this point.
12
Thank you, LC.
For once again being the poster child for athesism. You're making us all so proud.
For once again being the poster child for athesism. You're making us all so proud.
13
@6: Guam is an american territory. Our president is their president, our laws are their laws.
He's not furthering colonialism.
And unless you're willing to leave this continent for lack of any actual legitimate membership in a native group (you aren't on any roll), let's leave your feigned outrage about colonialism at the door. Especially since the letter is VERY clear in what it's saying.
He's not furthering colonialism.
And unless you're willing to leave this continent for lack of any actual legitimate membership in a native group (you aren't on any roll), let's leave your feigned outrage about colonialism at the door. Especially since the letter is VERY clear in what it's saying.
14
I could not find a link to read the letter in it's entirety. I'm not suggesting that the quoted paragraph is "out of context," just that all this clicking on the internet tires me and I still haven't seen the letter itself.
16
What's scary is that about 90% of my country's population think like this, and they aren't even religious.
17
If I read that right, he's saying that the Muslim gays should be totally down with being killed, because they understand the value of self-sacrifice. Obviously, they're gayness taints the entire society, so, they should just sacrifice themselves for the greater good. Americans grew Victory Gardens in WWII, so why can't the gays just die, already?
18
Irresponsible sexual behavior inflicts a high cost on the societies it infects. In ancient cultures, without welfare saftey nets and where agricultural limitations placed the whole society on the edge of a much thinner margin of error for survival mantaining the basic unit of society, the family, was often a life and death matter.
Hence elaborate rules for who marries whom when a spouse died. Hence punishments that seem draconian to us for sexual transgressions that break families apart or call into question family relationships.
Our more advanced society has a greater margin of error for family breakdown- children born out of wedlock or wives and children abandoned by husbands do not usually starve in the streets- but even our society will eventually collapse under the weight of the breakdown of the family.
Children born to and raised by uneducated unmarried teenagers seldom reach their full potential to contribute to the economy and often become liabilities. The out of wedlock birthrate runs around half overall and over 75% in some demographic groups, and we are in the 3rd and 4th generations of fatherless family units. There are and will be fewer and fewer contributing members of the economy to pay for the subsidized day care and job training and to underwrite educational loans and to support police and prison systems and to support social services and pay for welfare and to pay for health care and all the other demands that these folks disproportionately place on the system.
Already the federal government borrows 43 cents of every dollar it spends- borrowing not to finance capital projects that will be in place for 50 yeears or NASA style research that will pay dividends but borrowing to meet short term needs for social services. Borrowing from our grandchildren to finance the Welfare State.
It can't go on indefinitly.
It can't go on much longer.
go ahead.
Mock the traditional notion of family.
A Mom? A Dad!
How quaint!
Postponing sex until marriage?
Why?
Monogamy? Fidelity?
Who needs it?
No.
We don't stone adulterers or homosexuals.
We are too sophisticated for that.
Sophisticated societies die long painful lingering deaths.
Deaths that allow depravity and irresponsibility and perversion to bloom, ripen; rot.
A tsunami or nuclear attack would be quicker, more merciful.
But we probably won't be as lucky as Sodom.
The maggots of our depravity are already eating us, alive.
More...
Hence elaborate rules for who marries whom when a spouse died. Hence punishments that seem draconian to us for sexual transgressions that break families apart or call into question family relationships.
Our more advanced society has a greater margin of error for family breakdown- children born out of wedlock or wives and children abandoned by husbands do not usually starve in the streets- but even our society will eventually collapse under the weight of the breakdown of the family.
Children born to and raised by uneducated unmarried teenagers seldom reach their full potential to contribute to the economy and often become liabilities. The out of wedlock birthrate runs around half overall and over 75% in some demographic groups, and we are in the 3rd and 4th generations of fatherless family units. There are and will be fewer and fewer contributing members of the economy to pay for the subsidized day care and job training and to underwrite educational loans and to support police and prison systems and to support social services and pay for welfare and to pay for health care and all the other demands that these folks disproportionately place on the system.
Already the federal government borrows 43 cents of every dollar it spends- borrowing not to finance capital projects that will be in place for 50 yeears or NASA style research that will pay dividends but borrowing to meet short term needs for social services. Borrowing from our grandchildren to finance the Welfare State.
It can't go on indefinitly.
It can't go on much longer.
go ahead.
Mock the traditional notion of family.
A Mom? A Dad!
How quaint!
Postponing sex until marriage?
Why?
Monogamy? Fidelity?
Who needs it?
No.
We don't stone adulterers or homosexuals.
We are too sophisticated for that.
Sophisticated societies die long painful lingering deaths.
Deaths that allow depravity and irresponsibility and perversion to bloom, ripen; rot.
A tsunami or nuclear attack would be quicker, more merciful.
But we probably won't be as lucky as Sodom.
The maggots of our depravity are already eating us, alive.
19
Joe Mallahan is a devout Catholic. His Wallingford Wurst Festival is a fundraiser for a Catholic school that hosts an anti-abortion group and anti-gay activists such as Ken Hutcherson.
20
@ 18 if you are going to troll behind the name of an ancient Trojan prophetess at least do her memory the respect of spelling her name correctly: Cassandra.
22
@14 It's a distinct culture, and they have every right within the confines of the law to govern their territory (you know how they got to be a U.S territory right?) under their morals.
No foreign culture has the right to distort and demonize their beliefs, customs and their values just because they differ from them.
Certainly not the anglo culture that Savage and most poster here represent because they have a very poor record of moral legitimacy in the territory to begin with.
So people who are pointing fingers, need to take a deep breath, look at what they're saying and get off the high horse. Cuz you've got no real basis for your indignation other than to force your way of thinking on others who do not want them.
No foreign culture has the right to distort and demonize their beliefs, customs and their values just because they differ from them.
Certainly not the anglo culture that Savage and most poster here represent because they have a very poor record of moral legitimacy in the territory to begin with.
So people who are pointing fingers, need to take a deep breath, look at what they're saying and get off the high horse. Cuz you've got no real basis for your indignation other than to force your way of thinking on others who do not want them.
23
@18, your types amaze me with your ability to create long strings of only tangentially related material. It's like that old BBC show Connections but without the logic.
Sure, let's go back to the Bible's plan for marriage--you'd get to be one of several wives for one man, having been married off at puberty. You'd then spend what was left of your life pregnant or nursing. You'd have a 30% or greater chance of dying with each pregnancy and any children that survived being born get a 20-30% chance of death by what are now treatable and preventable diseases. Sounds good to me, how about you? Want to sign your daughter up to be wife #2 for your cousin? That's in the Bible too!
The whole plural marriage/chastity before argument has all to do with the fact that (until very recently) maternity was assured but paternity was not. It's that whole hidden ovulation thing that makes us humans such bizarre mammals.
Sure, let's go back to the Bible's plan for marriage--you'd get to be one of several wives for one man, having been married off at puberty. You'd then spend what was left of your life pregnant or nursing. You'd have a 30% or greater chance of dying with each pregnancy and any children that survived being born get a 20-30% chance of death by what are now treatable and preventable diseases. Sounds good to me, how about you? Want to sign your daughter up to be wife #2 for your cousin? That's in the Bible too!
The whole plural marriage/chastity before argument has all to do with the fact that (until very recently) maternity was assured but paternity was not. It's that whole hidden ovulation thing that makes us humans such bizarre mammals.
24
My parents keep trying to bring me back into the fold of the Catholic church. I tell them, "When they can let go of the politics and personal agendas and get back on message - you know, the one of love, peace, tolerance and forgiveness that their main guy was all about, then we'll talk."
While I'm not sure about the whole Jesus Is The Savior schtick, I'd be a lot more likely to buy it if nearly everyone else who does wasn't such a hateful ass.
While I'm not sure about the whole Jesus Is The Savior schtick, I'd be a lot more likely to buy it if nearly everyone else who does wasn't such a hateful ass.
25
@ LC, who's presuming to know what's good for Guam and being colonial now?
BTW, you still owe me an apology for your false accusations against me. You won't gain access to the kingdom of Heaven when you break the Commandments you know.
BTW, you still owe me an apology for your false accusations against me. You won't gain access to the kingdom of Heaven when you break the Commandments you know.
26
Loveschild, you cannot appropriate only the parts of multiculturalism that allow you to demonize those you don't like, and ignore the rest. Tell me, how do you feel about China's suppression of religion? Isn't that their cultural right?
Recognizing the universality of certain human rights - like not being stoned or lynched - is an important part of international multiculturalism, not to mention an important part of not being a fucking psychotic.
Recognizing the universality of certain human rights - like not being stoned or lynched - is an important part of international multiculturalism, not to mention an important part of not being a fucking psychotic.
27
@ 18, people have never postponed sex until marriage. NEVER. Try reading some social history sometime, and marvel at all the couples who had children within five months of their marriage.
28
To loveschild:
http://www.secular.co.za/wp-content/uplo…
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_je…
just because I want to blaspheme your ersatz saviour and because I can blaspheme with impunity anytime I want. Your "holy" spirit is a jerk too.
http://www.secular.co.za/wp-content/uplo…
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_je…
just because I want to blaspheme your ersatz saviour and because I can blaspheme with impunity anytime I want. Your "holy" spirit is a jerk too.
29
Yeah this is sickening. I still feel that Christian homophobia is less of a threat then Muslim homophobia for the same reason antisemitism on the right is less of a threat then that coming from people of color and those on the left- antiracist activists and progressives will criticize the religious right and white racists. When hatred spews from Muslims and "oppressed" minorities they do not. It is this silence and unwillingness to confront hatred when it comes from certain corners that makes it's potential to do damage and spiral out of control significantly more likley.
For instance, you had tons of protestors when the BNP spoke at the BBC yesterday... but you will see no counterprotesters or anti racist activists confronting people holding signs such as "The Holocaust Starts Now" and "Kill the Jews" such as have appeared at some rallies in London (if you don't believe me you can easily google it). Furthermore polls show that a large percentage of Muslim immigrants have seriously disturbing views about the right to kill gays and have at times been outspoken about them. This doesn't meet with the same amount of anger and activism as if it was coming from a white christian. (It isn't even met with the same anger as a gay man questioned Muslims immigrating to his country).
The New Black Panther Party and Nation of Islam are allowed to speak at college campuses, but anyone who spoke about African Americans the way they speak about whites, jews, gays would not get in the front door. And they are never met with anti-racist protestors, unlike say, someone questioning affirmative action
For instance, you had tons of protestors when the BNP spoke at the BBC yesterday... but you will see no counterprotesters or anti racist activists confronting people holding signs such as "The Holocaust Starts Now" and "Kill the Jews" such as have appeared at some rallies in London (if you don't believe me you can easily google it). Furthermore polls show that a large percentage of Muslim immigrants have seriously disturbing views about the right to kill gays and have at times been outspoken about them. This doesn't meet with the same amount of anger and activism as if it was coming from a white christian. (It isn't even met with the same anger as a gay man questioned Muslims immigrating to his country).
The New Black Panther Party and Nation of Islam are allowed to speak at college campuses, but anyone who spoke about African Americans the way they speak about whites, jews, gays would not get in the front door. And they are never met with anti-racist protestors, unlike say, someone questioning affirmative action
31
"Portuguese navigator Ferdinand Magellan, sailing for the King of Spain, reached the island in 1521 during his fleet's circumnavigation of the globe. General Miguel López de Legazpi claimed Guam for Spain in 1565. Spanish colonization commenced in 1668 with the arrival of Padre San Vitores, who established the first Catholic mission. The islands were part of the Spanish East Indies governed from the Philippines, which were in turn part of the Viceroyalty of New Spain based in Mexico City. Between 1668 and 1815, Guam was an important resting stop for the Spanish Manila galleons, a fleet that covered the Pacific trade route between Acapulco (Mexico) and Manila (Philippines). Guam, along with the rest of the Mariana and Caroline Islands, were treated as part of Spain's colony in the Philippines. While Guam's Chamorro culture is unique, the cultures of both Guam and the Northern Marianas were heavily influenced by Spanish culture and traditions during their 333 years of rule."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guam
Actually, LC, it's the Catholics who are imposing their beliefs on the natives of Guam through the colonization of Guam by Spain. If we appropriate your argument to the PROPER colonizers, the CATHOLICS should butt the hell out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guam
Actually, LC, it's the Catholics who are imposing their beliefs on the natives of Guam through the colonization of Guam by Spain. If we appropriate your argument to the PROPER colonizers, the CATHOLICS should butt the hell out.
32
My personal favorite in that letter is the second paragraph, which implies that widespread use of contraception is the cause of homosexuality and bisexuality. "Once marriage was simply about making love, the necessity for limiting sexual relations to persons of the opposite sex no longer appeared convincing."
The logical fallacies throughtout that letter are truly astounding. And really, really sad coming from a supposedly well-educated man (Bishops almost universally have at least one degree that is equivalent to a Ph.D, and usually multiple degrees).
The logical fallacies throughtout that letter are truly astounding. And really, really sad coming from a supposedly well-educated man (Bishops almost universally have at least one degree that is equivalent to a Ph.D, and usually multiple degrees).
33
thanks bc @ 15 for providing a link to the whole letter. the entirety is more jaw droppingly fucked up than the pulled quote.LC wishes that s/he/it had written it . it encapsulates all of s/he/it's insane opinions in one place. from an institution whose leadership cannot marry or reproduce...by choice.
infuckingsane.
infuckingsane.
34
Dan quoted Andrew Sullivan quoting the Catholic Archdiocese as having written, "It may be brutal at times, but any culture that is able to produce wave after wave of suicide bombers..." I read that to mean either that the culture is sometimes brutal or that the ability to produce wave after wave of suicide bombers is sometimes brutal.
35
@18:
But marriage equality for all is pro-family. Letting gay people marry who they want strengthens families.
Keeping gay people closeted in sham "traditional" marriages is very damaging to families.
Now who's anti-family?
But marriage equality for all is pro-family. Letting gay people marry who they want strengthens families.
Keeping gay people closeted in sham "traditional" marriages is very damaging to families.
Now who's anti-family?
36
This is just one of the reasons why religion is the enemy of freedom. Always has been the enemy of freedom and always will be. They aren't happy unless they have someone to murder. Murder is the stock in trade for the Catholic Church. That and pilaging, child rape, fostering ignorance and intolerance and then lecturing others on "morality".
37
"the office of the Archbishop here on Guam." Once again the Wolf in sheep's clothing is exposed. Monsters all. "People of faith" as the Radical Religious Extremists call them. Is it any wonder so many decent loving people find these repugnant, abominable, and one step removed from genocidal?
I have EVERY RIGHT to call out the evil when I see, in fact it's my human duty to do so. Loveschild would have us remain silent in the face of such abomination. I say NO.
I have EVERY RIGHT to call out the evil when I see, in fact it's my human duty to do so. Loveschild would have us remain silent in the face of such abomination. I say NO.
38
Dan, this is exactly why I fucking throw up in my mouth a little every time you seem to cozy up to Catholicism in your podcasts. I know you don't believe in God and only call yourself a Catholic out of some childhood cultural affinity, but c'mon. Can't you place your nostalgia (or whatever it is) elsewhere? I was raised Catholic too and I'd rather have the piss beat out of me then let someone call me one now.
40
36
Which, of course, is why the Founding Fathers who crafted the Constitution of the most free nation the earth has ever seen enshrined Freedom of Religion (a totally new concept) within it.
To protect people from assholes such as yourself.
Who wouldn't know "Freedom" if it gnawed your balls off.
Which, of course, is why the Founding Fathers who crafted the Constitution of the most free nation the earth has ever seen enshrined Freedom of Religion (a totally new concept) within it.
To protect people from assholes such as yourself.
Who wouldn't know "Freedom" if it gnawed your balls off.
42
Speaking of context, there's the part at the end where he says that allowing gays to get married encourages terrorism.
44
What a fucking headcase.
I'm a queer activist and practising Catholic. Apart from my genuine belief in God, and the importance of Catholicism to my cultural background, another reason I continue to practice and engage with the Church is that when I was a little queer kid, the other queers were all either closeted or lapsed. Catholic families have tons of queer kids and liberal Catholics should fight to prove that people like this egregious moron do not speak for us - or for the majority of Catholics.
I could say sooo much about this - about the Church's betrayal of gay men in particular since the new papacy - but I won't. I'll carry on doing what I've been doing, which is challenging my faith to deal with the people it claims to want to minister to.
I'm a queer activist and practising Catholic. Apart from my genuine belief in God, and the importance of Catholicism to my cultural background, another reason I continue to practice and engage with the Church is that when I was a little queer kid, the other queers were all either closeted or lapsed. Catholic families have tons of queer kids and liberal Catholics should fight to prove that people like this egregious moron do not speak for us - or for the majority of Catholics.
I could say sooo much about this - about the Church's betrayal of gay men in particular since the new papacy - but I won't. I'll carry on doing what I've been doing, which is challenging my faith to deal with the people it claims to want to minister to.
45
@40: Wrong.
Edicts of Ashoka, written around 200 BC: http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/ash…
7
Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, desires that all religions should reside everywhere, for all of them desire self-control and purity of heart.
Therefore contact (between religions) is good.
Edicts of Ashoka, written around 200 BC: http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/ash…
47
Hang the Vatican. Seriously.
It pains me to say this, what with thinking I was committed to nonviolence and everything, but this is a religious hierarchy that has been co-opting and perverting Jesus's message for at least 18 centuries, and living off the power and wealth that they've accumulated in the process. I don't believe in Hell, but these people have earned whatever real-world equivalent is available.
Whether or not you, or I, believe in Christ, the various "gospels" that describe his words, actions, and leadership are pretty clear that it was a message of peace, equality, love, tolerance, humility, and contempt for those who would organize and monopolize religion for their own self-aggrandizement.
Sarah Silverman has a fairly well-reasoned (for her, all things being relative) youtube video out, titled something like "Sell the Vatican, Feed the Poor." Yeah, it's cute. It's sophomoric. But, you know? Jesus would dig it. Big time.
I'm feeling even a little less charitable towards these religious mobsters. Sure, sell the Vatican, all their holdings, gold, artifacts, and every one of their churches while you're at it. But, I still don't think they'd get it. They're so essentially corrupt that simple realization, let alone redemption may be impossible.
Hang them. Hang them all. Then sell all of their assets and feed the poor.
So, any sales on pitchforks and torches at Home Depot or Lowes this weekend?
It pains me to say this, what with thinking I was committed to nonviolence and everything, but this is a religious hierarchy that has been co-opting and perverting Jesus's message for at least 18 centuries, and living off the power and wealth that they've accumulated in the process. I don't believe in Hell, but these people have earned whatever real-world equivalent is available.
Whether or not you, or I, believe in Christ, the various "gospels" that describe his words, actions, and leadership are pretty clear that it was a message of peace, equality, love, tolerance, humility, and contempt for those who would organize and monopolize religion for their own self-aggrandizement.
Sarah Silverman has a fairly well-reasoned (for her, all things being relative) youtube video out, titled something like "Sell the Vatican, Feed the Poor." Yeah, it's cute. It's sophomoric. But, you know? Jesus would dig it. Big time.
I'm feeling even a little less charitable towards these religious mobsters. Sure, sell the Vatican, all their holdings, gold, artifacts, and every one of their churches while you're at it. But, I still don't think they'd get it. They're so essentially corrupt that simple realization, let alone redemption may be impossible.
Hang them. Hang them all. Then sell all of their assets and feed the poor.
So, any sales on pitchforks and torches at Home Depot or Lowes this weekend?
48
LC @ 22: You do understand that you are condoning the murder of LGBT people , don't you?
I have rarely seen such a shining example of Christian faith in action ...... you and the archbishop both.
I have rarely seen such a shining example of Christian faith in action ...... you and the archbishop both.
49
I'm pretty sure I could write a script that would output comments of an approximate hostility and believability as those of LC (bats wings and eye of nute). Her efforts are increasingly predictable. I wish that her programmer would throw a pinch of complexity into the mix -- maybe the occasional compassion? It would make her more interesting.
50
a reminder: the troll doesn't represent most people of faith - not even slightly.
that she would defend that letter is a new low, and betrays a deep ethical depravity.
that she would defend that letter is a new low, and betrays a deep ethical depravity.
51
It truly doesn't matter what LC thinks, because never in the history of the earth has progress been stopped. It has been delayed, and set back, but never stopped. You will never convince LC to agree with you. You may never convince LC's children to agree with you (then again you may, they have their own minds and can make their own decisions). But somewhere down the line gay rights are going to be as much of a normality as the right to cut our fingernails (We are allowed to cut our fingernails right?).
52
According to the Bible, Jesus flipped merchant tables, told his mom to go away, encouraged his followers to leave their families, called people 'vipers', and cursed an innocent fig tree, among other highlights. So fuck off with telling us what a great guy he is. Even the book meant to praise him shows he was a putz, if he ever existed.
54
@53- While I'm inclined to believe there was a rabbi named Jesus who got nailed to a post around 33CE, the fact someone wrote about him 67 years after his supposed death isn't a slam dunk bit of evidence.
55
Can anyone tell me why LC isn't ignored like the others who troll this site? She never has anything intelligent to say and her garbled prose just gives me a headache....
56
@ 54, there are a whole lot of books about the historical Jesus. The fact that a Roman could be bothered to write about peasant in the occupied territories at all speaks volumes of his importance.
If you're questioning his existence, you'd be well to do your homework first. If you're just questioning his divinity, though, that's entirely a matter of faith and is unrelated to whether the man ever lived.
If you're questioning his existence, you'd be well to do your homework first. If you're just questioning his divinity, though, that's entirely a matter of faith and is unrelated to whether the man ever lived.
57
@45- awesome- clarifications like yours are one of the reasons I bother to read the comments. Thank you!
58
This is basically the same thing that william F. Buckley said about the Soviet Union with regard to homosexuality. The more things change...
60
Bless you my son. Especially scary as Roman Catholicism is the predominant religion and the islands are isolated. No one will hear you scream in the middle of the ocean.
@6 - Please check your meds.
@6 - Please check your meds.
62
@61, Actually, Matt, he isn't mistaken. Jesus, or, more likely Yeshua was a fairly common name around the time THE Jesus lived.
However, you are also correct in that the Jesus Josephus was writing about is presumed to be THE Jesus simply because of the context of what Josephus wrote.
However, you are also correct in that the Jesus Josephus was writing about is presumed to be THE Jesus simply because of the context of what Josephus wrote.
64
I live on Guam (a transplant from Oregon), and have been watching these developments with a mix of despair and fascination. We've currently got three domestic partnership-related bills in the mix in our legislature (one for full, one for limited, one barring any rights for gays/lesbians), a body which is notoriously corrupt, self-serving, and short-sighted (15 people, 2-year terms, essentially all elected on family name/ethnic ties). It's amazing to see that the full domestic partnership law sort of stands a chance.
The Catholic church here is very, very strong. When the Spaniards conquered Guam, they brought the Catholics along with them, who proceeded to slaughter the native men and attempt to erase the native culture. The Catholic church has a long history here of very bad behavior, and the current archbishop exemplifies the type. Because of the deep-rooted corruption, nepotism, and cronyism in the government of Guam, he has been able to run roughshod over historic preservation laws, violate separation of church and state, engage in overt political activity, and generally put his grubby fingers in lots of places he shouldn't. The local populace is almost entirely Catholic, but there's a growing sense of resentment toward the astonishingly poor judgment he is showing.
The entire saga has been amazing to watch. The archbishop claimed that the legislature would "forfeit the moral authority to govern" if they passed the domestic partnership act. In response, the vice-speaker of our senate (the only house in our legislature) called bullshit, and publicly said that he had been sexually abused by Catholic priests as a child and that the church hat no moral authority whatsoever. That took some serious balls here, with a local culture that is fixated on machismo and religion. I can't comment on the rest of his politics, but he has made an interesting stand here.
The archbishop has always been a little nutty, but publicly endorsing the killing of homosexuals is a bit much even for the folks here. There has been a pretty strong backlash and he has been forced to back down a bit, but we'll see where it goes from here.
More...
The Catholic church here is very, very strong. When the Spaniards conquered Guam, they brought the Catholics along with them, who proceeded to slaughter the native men and attempt to erase the native culture. The Catholic church has a long history here of very bad behavior, and the current archbishop exemplifies the type. Because of the deep-rooted corruption, nepotism, and cronyism in the government of Guam, he has been able to run roughshod over historic preservation laws, violate separation of church and state, engage in overt political activity, and generally put his grubby fingers in lots of places he shouldn't. The local populace is almost entirely Catholic, but there's a growing sense of resentment toward the astonishingly poor judgment he is showing.
The entire saga has been amazing to watch. The archbishop claimed that the legislature would "forfeit the moral authority to govern" if they passed the domestic partnership act. In response, the vice-speaker of our senate (the only house in our legislature) called bullshit, and publicly said that he had been sexually abused by Catholic priests as a child and that the church hat no moral authority whatsoever. That took some serious balls here, with a local culture that is fixated on machismo and religion. I can't comment on the rest of his politics, but he has made an interesting stand here.
The archbishop has always been a little nutty, but publicly endorsing the killing of homosexuals is a bit much even for the folks here. There has been a pretty strong backlash and he has been forced to back down a bit, but we'll see where it goes from here.
65
Here are links to some items of interest in this story:
Our local newspaper (the Guam Pacific Daily News):
http://www.guampdn.com
The archbishop's letter:
http://www.guampdn.com/assets/pdf/M01447…
A response to the letter:
http://www.guampdn.com/apps/pbcs.dll/sec…
And on it goes . . .
Our local newspaper (the Guam Pacific Daily News):
http://www.guampdn.com
The archbishop's letter:
http://www.guampdn.com/assets/pdf/M01447…
A response to the letter:
http://www.guampdn.com/apps/pbcs.dll/sec…
And on it goes . . .
66
Wow - thank you very much, Diver, for your very valuable insight into this. And a happy Saturday morning to you, too.
67
To the crazy (18 I think?) who said that civilization falls without a nice, nuclear family, clearly you haven't done your history and anthropology homework. FOR A VERY, VERY LONG TIME human society was polyamorous and prosperous in it's polyamory. It was when women became absorbed into the idea of property that marriage came about and lots of blood, war, torture, famine, and floods followed. See: etymology of the word "rape," matrilineal anarchist societies (Hawaiians, Simoans, Iroquois, Arawak), development of laws in Mesopotamia (the first laws were about territory, the second laws were about marriage and absorbing a woman's family's terrority through that institution). Notice the more tolerant societies flourished until the monogamous (in name only) and religious European psychos came and gave everybody small pox.
68
So Loveschild what do you have to say to Christian missionaries being executed in other countries for being annoying and trying to spread their ideals where they're not wanted? Hallmark of colonialism, significantly more so than encouraging humanitarian gay rights.
On that note, do you condone northern African countries who practice female circumcision?
What about the historical persecution of Christians by the Romans? That's different than Guam's Archdiosese saying stupendously awful things about gays right?
On that note, do you condone northern African countries who practice female circumcision?
What about the historical persecution of Christians by the Romans? That's different than Guam's Archdiosese saying stupendously awful things about gays right?
69
@22
You said: "No foreign culture has the right to distort and demonize their beliefs, customs and their values just because they differ from them."
You do realize that the author of the letter cited is the Archbishop of the Archdiocese of Guam, don't you? Just how many Catholics do you think were born on Guam prior to the arrival of foreign cultures?
You said: "No foreign culture has the right to distort and demonize their beliefs, customs and their values just because they differ from them."
You do realize that the author of the letter cited is the Archbishop of the Archdiocese of Guam, don't you? Just how many Catholics do you think were born on Guam prior to the arrival of foreign cultures?
70
Umm... Correction to the Christian right: Having lived in a predominantly Muslim country, their families are JUST as fucked up as any culture's. There's good people, bad people and bat shit fucking crazy people. Most of them aren't willing to kill themselves or others to defend their 'family values' from something many of them do in adolescence due to a segregation of the sexes during puberty. They just don't consider themselves gay/lesbian despite a predominant amount of their sexual activity during their pre-marriage life being homosexual.
An Iranian friend of mine said " We don't have Homosexuals in Iran." Why? because "During the 80's Khomeini was held at gun-point by a transgendered person who wanted a sex-change operation and Khomeini decided to provide state funding for it (rather than be shot). So now the state allows gay people to merely be 'transgendered' and that makes homosexual relationships 'not homosexual'.
Also, beastiality is VERY common too. So is asshole guys who masterbate during my drama class (and I mean at his desk in public in an american style institution that was co-ed).
Oh Saudi proxy states, you make Syria and Jordan look like bastions of modern global culture...
An Iranian friend of mine said " We don't have Homosexuals in Iran." Why? because "During the 80's Khomeini was held at gun-point by a transgendered person who wanted a sex-change operation and Khomeini decided to provide state funding for it (rather than be shot). So now the state allows gay people to merely be 'transgendered' and that makes homosexual relationships 'not homosexual'.
Also, beastiality is VERY common too. So is asshole guys who masterbate during my drama class (and I mean at his desk in public in an american style institution that was co-ed).
Oh Saudi proxy states, you make Syria and Jordan look like bastions of modern global culture...
71
I had to laugh at that letter. Especially the part that stated that children born into a homosexual union are the product of the emotional "needs of self-absorbed others."
Here's a clue: Most, if not ALL, children born are the product of "self-absorbed" people. Why? Because NOBODY ever asks "Does this world need another child?" Or, is the world asking anybody to produce another child? Answer: NO
What self-absorbed breeders says is, "I" want or "WE" want to have a baby. That's about as fucking self-absorbed as one can get. Usually EVERY married couple says this at one time. I'll bet even Loveschild did, that self-absorbed twit.
Here's a clue: Most, if not ALL, children born are the product of "self-absorbed" people. Why? Because NOBODY ever asks "Does this world need another child?" Or, is the world asking anybody to produce another child? Answer: NO
What self-absorbed breeders says is, "I" want or "WE" want to have a baby. That's about as fucking self-absorbed as one can get. Usually EVERY married couple says this at one time. I'll bet even Loveschild did, that self-absorbed twit.
72
If you want to weigh in on an online poll visit the local paper's website (www.guampdn.com)
bottom right:
Rate Archbishop Apuron's handling of the debate on Bill 185.
bottom right:
Rate Archbishop Apuron's handling of the debate on Bill 185.
Most Commented on Slog
-
Stephen Fry v. the Catholic Church by Dan Savage
-
Straight Up by Dan Savage
-
Neologism Needed by Dan Savage
-
Palin's Cheat Sheet by Dan Savage
-
SL Letter of the Day: The Toilet Brush Off by Dan Savage
-
Every Child Deserves a Mother and a Father by Dan Savage
-
Tea Party Crowd Believes That Only Good Spellers Should Vote by Dan Savage
-
How's That Hopey, Changey Stuff Working Out For Childhood Obesity? by Dan Savage
-
Every Child Deserves a Mother and a Father by Dan Savage
-
The Green Police Super Bowl Commercial by Charles Mudede
RSS
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (73) RSS