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News & ArtsThursday, October 22, 2009
Savage Love Savage Love Letters of the Day
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 4:04 PM
Hi, Dan. I recently discussed some concerns I had about a potential BDSM play encounter with my professor/friend, and she called in to you at your podcast and you called her back and left a message for me on her voicemail (it's in Episode 157). She had me listen to the message that you left her that day. I wanted to let you know that I really did appreciate the advice that you gave. I had already seen the guy in question, though. Luckily everything turned out fine and I am okay, but I acknowledge that I was acting reckless, with little reguard for my safety, and it was a dumb thing to do. Since listening to your message, I have been researching safe BDSM groups in my area so that I can learn safe practices. Thank you again.Naive Young Sub
How did it go? Did you have sex with this guy? Did he do that "fear play" stuff with you? Glad you lived.Dan
NYS's response—and a letter from the "fear-play" top she met up with—are after the jump.
UPDATE: The "fear-play" top responds at greater length—also after the jump.
It went alright I think, we did have sex, but he didn't do the fear play stuff. He was pretty cordial, and he said that he's done that sort of thing, but he wouldn't do it with someone that didn't want it. He had me fill out a sheet with my hard/soft limits, and we discussed it beforehand. I see now how I could have easily gotten myself in a situation where he just decided to do whatever he wanted, and it would have been too late at that point. Not sure if I should see him again, he seems like a really fun, nice guy, but I don't know if it's too risky. I haven't done a lot of this meeting up with doms, so I underestimated the risk a bit, I believe.
Hey, not sure if you got updated, so I thought you'd like to know, the "fucking stupid" girl did indeed live through the encounter and made it out quite safely. We also didn't play, even after the 3 hour drive. I did jokingly say, "You'll never live through this," and got smacked on the back of the head though. So I was assaulted on our first date. God protects the fools? Perhaps.
Sincerely,
The Sadistic PsychopathP.S.: I'm technically a sociopath, but it's ok, most non-psychologists can't correctly define either of those terms.
Hey, TSP, thanks for writing. First, I don't think I called you a sadistic sociopath in my response. That was in the episode summary... and i didn't write that or see it before it went up. Sorry about that—please don't hurt me. And you say you didn't play... but NYS said you did have sex, even if you didn't do any fear-play scenario stuff. Care to clarify?Best,
Dan
Before me and the student met up, she accused me of being a "sociopath." So, when she called me up (in a panic) to warn me about what you'd said (she was afraid I'd be mad), my reaction was "But I'm not a psychopath, I'm clearly a sociopath." It's kind of an inside joke. I apologize for not being clearer. It struck me as funny at the time.
Actually, we've seen each other three times now. The first time, the time which gave the sex ed. teacher cause to call into your show, which Episode 157 refers to, we did not play. Well, she got a good night kiss but, let's be honest here, that's not exactly playing. The third time we met, we did, indeed, have sex.From listening to the show, I can understand your panic. I'm not going to spend an inordinate amount of time defending myself, but I will say the girl in question did meet me at a public place (a restaurant), she did not give me her home address, she did have someone give her a safe-call about an hour after we met, and we stayed in public areas. She had my personal cell phone number, which is my primary number, my "home number" goes straight to a fax machine (though she could have had it if she wanted it) and my work number just goes to yet another cell phone. I didn't balk at giving her references. But I told her any BDSM references I had were either in the closet or online (and hadn't played with me personally) so they wouldn't do her much good but she was free to talk to the online ones (and she did). She also spoke to my wife on several occassions, even before this turned into a "Hey, let's meet up" type of scenario. So she had "references." I just didn't have a signed letter of recommendation from Jay Wiseman. I'm active in the community online, but I don't really attend the local events, as those people are just freaky scary.
So while meeting up with psychopaths you met online in itself is generally a dangerous practice, I feel like she did so in the safest manner possible.
As for the rest? I don't mind the summary, far worse things have been said about me. I still think it's funny. There wasn't anything your caller said that was untrue, so I can't really be mad at her, and given the information you had, I would say your response was extremely sound. I wouldn't have met up with me either. That's scary shit.
1
Nice to get an update. Based on the information given by the original caller (that the young sub was going to meet up with someone who liked to make women wish they were dead, or whatever), the advice to NOT see this guy seemed more than merited. Though good for her for meeting him anyway and surviving.
2
The letter from TSP just gives me a creepy vibe.
If I were her, I wouldn't go back. I'm glad she's researching safe BDSM groups in her area, as these are probably her best bet. And just because it was "cordial" (how do you cordially have sex with someone?) doesn't mean it will remain that way.
Maybe someone can fill me in here -- is the whole filling out a sheet with hard/soft boundaries thing a normal BDSM practise? Seems like a good idea, but I've never heard of that before.
If I were her, I wouldn't go back. I'm glad she's researching safe BDSM groups in her area, as these are probably her best bet. And just because it was "cordial" (how do you cordially have sex with someone?) doesn't mean it will remain that way.
Maybe someone can fill me in here -- is the whole filling out a sheet with hard/soft boundaries thing a normal BDSM practise? Seems like a good idea, but I've never heard of that before.
4
People who claim to be sociopaths are either teenagers or in fact socipaths and either way you should not have sex with them unless you are one too.
5
@2, it's not uncommon in group scenes, but I've never heard of anyone doing it in a one-on-one setting. Still, it's definitely a good idea to have that sort of conversation so you know what peoples' limits are.
Pushing the limits - slowly and lovingly - can be a big part of the whole thing, but it can also cause enormous problems. Anybody can put on a hat that says "Dom," so to speak, but how you handle these issues is what separates the real thing from the poseurs.
Pushing the limits - slowly and lovingly - can be a big part of the whole thing, but it can also cause enormous problems. Anybody can put on a hat that says "Dom," so to speak, but how you handle these issues is what separates the real thing from the poseurs.
6
Boy howdy, does *this* one strike a chord. I met, dated, and played with a guy who told me he was a sociopath and could easily kill me the first time he was at my house. I told him I had already made a safety call to a friend and let her know he was here. We discussed my boundaries, and flirted and made out a little, and then we played, and in scene he proceeded to break three of my most-clearly stated boundaries. When I pointed it out afterward, he apologized and said he'd misheard me. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, in part because he was a friend of some people that I trusted. And also: he was charming. And sweet. And called just to see how I was doing. Every few months, I decided to see him again. And again. And again. And each time, something shattering or boundary-breaking happened which left me feeling doubtful and insecure and needy. I decided I would just have phone sex with him, because that felt safer, but over time that became equally abusive until he suggested to me that I was a lousy submissive and should kill myself.
Lessons learned? A) That even safe BDSM groups have some unsafe members; B) that if someone tells you he is a sociopath you might just want to assume that he is; and C) if you find it a turn on that he is a sociopath, you're going to be a long time in a strange country with no map.
Lessons learned? A) That even safe BDSM groups have some unsafe members; B) that if someone tells you he is a sociopath you might just want to assume that he is; and C) if you find it a turn on that he is a sociopath, you're going to be a long time in a strange country with no map.
7
Thanks Fifty-Two-Eighty for the response :)
The more information that's coming out of the woodwork, the less ominous and dangerous this situation is sounding. Still, probably not the smart decision to have been made by said girl -- even joking about being a sociopath would send me running, but hey, to each their own.
The more information that's coming out of the woodwork, the less ominous and dangerous this situation is sounding. Still, probably not the smart decision to have been made by said girl -- even joking about being a sociopath would send me running, but hey, to each their own.
8
I'm really happy to hear that she's okay. Really it's difficult enough to trust people in general, but add any sort of power play into that and you really risk even more damage.
9
BDSM is obviously not for everyone, but when it's done right, I can pretty much guarantee you that you'll cum like a Goddamned freight train. The combination of being completely helpless, immobile, often times without a voice or even sight, at the hands of a strong, virile, dominant man can make a lot of women turn into jelly inside. The right guy can make this one of the most incredible experiences you've ever had in your life, but the wrong guy - well, when the scene goes bad it can really go bad amazingly fast.
Trust is critical. I don't go around tying up, whipping, and putting hoods and nipple clamps and such on every woman I meet, or even with every woman I sleep with. There has to be some special magic there; when it's right, you know it.
Any if you should ever encountered a "Dom" who has never subbed, walk away - fast. You can't do it right if you have no idea what it's like to be on the other side.
Trust is critical. I don't go around tying up, whipping, and putting hoods and nipple clamps and such on every woman I meet, or even with every woman I sleep with. There has to be some special magic there; when it's right, you know it.
Any if you should ever encountered a "Dom" who has never subbed, walk away - fast. You can't do it right if you have no idea what it's like to be on the other side.
10
@9 - "You can't do it right if you have no idea what it's like to be on the other side."
Funny, we use the same rule in partner dancing with the lead/follow dichotomy. Huh!
Funny, we use the same rule in partner dancing with the lead/follow dichotomy. Huh!
11
Fifty-Two-Eighty: While there *IS* a following for your opinion, that a "Dom can't do it right unless they know what it's like to be on the other side" that is not a globally accepted "fact" or even a largely accepted opinion. The fact is, a sub experience will differ greatly from a non-sub. A sub *likes* being in that submissive position, that position of helplessness. No one ever says a sub has to be a Dominant to understand what it's like "on the other side." I don't have to be a woman to understand how to have sex with a woman. I can *LISTEN* to a woman, her experiences, her wants, her reactions and *learn* how to do so with skill, being a woman isn't required (and let's face it, isn't possible.)
Me being on the lash end of a whip isn't the cure-all answer to make a good Dom. I've done it, but that's not what makes me a good Dom. I will never have the "sub experience" that a submissive has. I would be fooling myself if I thought that being on "the other side" gave me complete insight on any one submissive, much less all of them. Open and honest communication is far more useful than whip marks, and that's what makes a good Dom, being willing to listen to their sub and react accordingly to her needs and wishes.
Me being on the lash end of a whip isn't the cure-all answer to make a good Dom. I've done it, but that's not what makes me a good Dom. I will never have the "sub experience" that a submissive has. I would be fooling myself if I thought that being on "the other side" gave me complete insight on any one submissive, much less all of them. Open and honest communication is far more useful than whip marks, and that's what makes a good Dom, being willing to listen to their sub and react accordingly to her needs and wishes.
12
No argument, TSP. And I'm not very submissive either. But I do note that you say "I've done it," as have I, and I still think it provides valuable insight.
13
Wow. FASCINATING!!!
The whole thing is really new to me, so excuse my wide eyed, wide mouth gawking. It does strike me as kind of an unfulfilling cycle though. Folks that are clearly into having no control go to see folks that desire total control and then agree to an equal set of rules? Doesn't that seem kind of oxy-moronic? At some point as a sub don't you actually want someone to really take actual control, without the manufactured construct?
I'm genuinely curious as it strikes me as a great metaphor for life. We create our own set of rules, then feel restrained by their rigidity, but helpless, hopeless and at danger without them.
The whole thing is really new to me, so excuse my wide eyed, wide mouth gawking. It does strike me as kind of an unfulfilling cycle though. Folks that are clearly into having no control go to see folks that desire total control and then agree to an equal set of rules? Doesn't that seem kind of oxy-moronic? At some point as a sub don't you actually want someone to really take actual control, without the manufactured construct?
I'm genuinely curious as it strikes me as a great metaphor for life. We create our own set of rules, then feel restrained by their rigidity, but helpless, hopeless and at danger without them.
14
Yes, Donutspal, and that's where the "pushing the limits" I talked about earlier comes into play. Only it can be kind of a problem when it happens all at once.
16
@11: It is helpful for bottoms to top a bit, just to see that it takes a lot of work and creativity to make everything come together right. Helps prevent bottoms from getting overly demanding.
@13: if you have a month or two to kill, there's a lot of great material explaining BDSM to novices. You might start here: http://www.unrealities.com/adult/ssbb/fa…. I'm also partial to a lovely story called Telepaths Don't Need Safewords, by Cecilia Tan (available on Amazon).
As for TSP, or TSS or whatever he wants to go by, I'd be curious to know what kinds of people or activities he calls "freaky scary." One man's turn-on is another's squick, as they say.
@13: if you have a month or two to kill, there's a lot of great material explaining BDSM to novices. You might start here: http://www.unrealities.com/adult/ssbb/fa…. I'm also partial to a lovely story called Telepaths Don't Need Safewords, by Cecilia Tan (available on Amazon).
As for TSP, or TSS or whatever he wants to go by, I'd be curious to know what kinds of people or activities he calls "freaky scary." One man's turn-on is another's squick, as they say.
17
Thanks, all. Your comments have been very insightful and interesting. I clearly had no idea what really went into Dom/sub stuff.
18
@13 - It's the difference between fantasy and reality. In
your fantasies, you can do anything. In reality, even for
vanilla sex, there are things you'd absolutely refuse to do
(e.g.: a three-way with the 14-year old across the street).
The same applies in BDSM. There are a quite a few people who
can take a lot of pain, but tickling is a hard limit that will
instantly end the scene in a bad way.
Now, if the top/dom and bottom/sub have limits that mesh
well with each other, then the play is the same as no-limits
play, for all practical purposes.
your fantasies, you can do anything. In reality, even for
vanilla sex, there are things you'd absolutely refuse to do
(e.g.: a three-way with the 14-year old across the street).
The same applies in BDSM. There are a quite a few people who
can take a lot of pain, but tickling is a hard limit that will
instantly end the scene in a bad way.
Now, if the top/dom and bottom/sub have limits that mesh
well with each other, then the play is the same as no-limits
play, for all practical purposes.
19
@9 You seem to be implying some knowledgeable about BDSM, so it is disappointing to see that you aren't familiar with the online BDSM checklists that are readily available in a variety of different forms. You also don't seem to have picked up on the comment by TSP about his "online" experience. Online does not equate to real life, and somone attempting to use online experiences to suggest their real life skills or knowledge should probably raise flags. But my biggest concern is your statement
Any if you should ever encountered a "Dom" who has never subbed, walk away - fast. You can't do it right if you have no idea what it's like to be on the other side.
Is it your belief that YOUR way is the ONLY way, or are you unaware of the excellent arguments that have been made on both sides of this issue?
I am not an expert, but please, know who is giving you advise, and their qualifications, before accepting it blindly. Educate yourself.
Any if you should ever encountered a "Dom" who has never subbed, walk away - fast. You can't do it right if you have no idea what it's like to be on the other side.
Is it your belief that YOUR way is the ONLY way, or are you unaware of the excellent arguments that have been made on both sides of this issue?
I am not an expert, but please, know who is giving you advise, and their qualifications, before accepting it blindly. Educate yourself.
20
balderdash@4, i can't see the harm in having sex with a sociopath, long as he isn't the serial-killer type of sociopath. now, breeding with, living with and joint checking with...that's another matter altogether, and i would definitely advise against those things.
21
Ah, welcome to the world of "dominant personalities." Which can be pretty difficult to distinguish from "opinionated assholes" sometimes.
22
The main thing to know about BDSM is that each person and experience will be unique. Each of us will have differences in what we want and expect from our Doms/subs. I myself am an oxy moron to many people in the scene, I am slave to one (for 14 years) but dominate others will ease and pleasure. Some have a few issues with this, 1) I am a woman and therefor not actually able to dominate men (laughable) 2) A "true" slave could never think of dominating anyone. Those are the 2 main ones I hear, but, I hear them more from wanna be doms who think all women on the scene should just bow down to anyone who calls themselves a dominant.
Always make sure that you know your limits, and express those to any you may meet with, but remember that there is never a guarantee that anyone will follow them. Remember that a safe word is only as good as the honor of the person dominating you. Pressing limits is not something that should be brought up or tried until time has gone by and a high level of trust is established. If a dom is trying to push limits too early, then it is time to run.
I am writing this with very little sleep so I will sign off now so that I don't blabber on about safety issues (which I could go on about for years)
Always make sure that you know your limits, and express those to any you may meet with, but remember that there is never a guarantee that anyone will follow them. Remember that a safe word is only as good as the honor of the person dominating you. Pressing limits is not something that should be brought up or tried until time has gone by and a high level of trust is established. If a dom is trying to push limits too early, then it is time to run.
I am writing this with very little sleep so I will sign off now so that I don't blabber on about safety issues (which I could go on about for years)
23
fuck, too little sleep by the look of it. Should have read, "but dominate other WITH ease and pleasure
26
Why, thank you. I've always thought of myself as being more of a nectarine, a little on the tart side ...
28
I see that Office Depot now has duct tape in attractive colors. If you're going to tie or tape me up, please have some style!
29
I agree with a lot of what was said above. Someone said that he's probably a teenager--I believe the reverse, that he's an adult man with the maturity of a teenager. He's certainly not "diagnosed" as a sociopath, since that term isn't really used anymore. He's trying to sound cool and edgy, and is pretty obviously self-centered. Hmm. Self-centered and trying to sound dark and sinister and badass--what kind of a dom do you think THAT'LL be?
30
@10 . . . my boyfriend and I are both swing dancers and BDSM folks. We've gotten our terminology so mixed up through in-jokes, the fact that we both switch in the bedroom (but not on the dance floor . . . much) that in a recent Lindy class, I found myself apologizing to a new lead for topping from the bottom. He just looked perplexed. But really, the two dynamics are awfully similar . . . you do something physically exhiliarating and fun, you get to wear fancy clothes, and while all sorts of bizarre and unexpected things may happen, there are some basic assumption that it's considered inappropriate to break. I haven't yet found any swing dance hard limits, but I guess they're the same as the traditional (almost) universal BDSM hard limits: children, scat, and animals.
32
"I'm active in the community online, but I don't really attend the local events, as those people are just freaky scary."
Well that's narrow-minded. I'm one of those freaky scary people...and not a sociopath either. Seems to me that comments like that are made by people who don't do so well in social environments that require social graces and a good reputation. I rely about half on my own instincts and half on other's impressions of a person if they've been in 'the scene' for a while. It might not be entirely accurate, but in this guys case, I'm thinking his safety rep wouldn't be so great.
Well that's narrow-minded. I'm one of those freaky scary people...and not a sociopath either. Seems to me that comments like that are made by people who don't do so well in social environments that require social graces and a good reputation. I rely about half on my own instincts and half on other's impressions of a person if they've been in 'the scene' for a while. It might not be entirely accurate, but in this guys case, I'm thinking his safety rep wouldn't be so great.
33
My main concern with the local groups is that it *does* include individuals who may be less than the savory sort. I ran across one group that was for "Doms" but "subs had to sit at a table by themselves unless they're servicing the Doms." That doesn't seem to be an exactly healthy environment for new subs, or subs not interested in open play.
The fact is, subs are often pressured into playing, into being submissive, into fitting a certain preconception or mold, into be naked, into mingling, or thrust into situations where they have to deal with a "Dom ass" trying to boss them around or pressure them into things. Then you run into a conflict. Not my idea of fun.
If I attend a local group I want to find a group that I feel comfortable bringing a sub or a slave to. If everyone was up on SSC and respect, there would be no problems. There are some local groups I'm interested in attending, I haven't yet. I'm quite happy doing my own thing and reading up about the community online and not being a card-carrying member of the kinky-brigarde. Sorry if that doesn't make me a "true player." It is *MY* responsibility to make certain whatever environments I bring my subs into is a healthy one, and honestly, I haven't reached that level of trust with the community as a whole.
I said they were "freaky scary" to be humorous. You have TSP claiming someone is freak scary, that's humor, guys. HAHA? Funny? No? Oh well.
No, I am neither a psychopath nor a sociopath. I am a sadist, however, which is a perfectly valid orientation in BDSM. I'm not sure what reaction some of you would be looking for. If I denied being either a sociopath or psychopath, you'd just say it proves that it's true, and you would be right, those who suffer from sociopathy or psychopathy would deny it vehemently. I didn't *claim* to be either of those, I was accused of being a sociopath (jokingly) so I went along with it. I was *called* a psychopath by whoever writes the summaries for the episodes, and I again, humorously went along with it.
I could have thrown a fit, screamed, yelled, cursed, threatened hellfire and death at the "insult" but, that would just further prove I'm chemically imbalanced. I could have denied it, but then I'd appear defensive. Obviously humorously going along with it means I'm "claiming to be one?" Come on, guys. I'm no Saint Michael, but give me at least some benefit of doubt, aye? I'm not a serial killer, I'm not an abuser, I'm not insane. I'm just a geniunely nice guy that's intimately in touch with his dark side and likes to play with it in a safe manner with consenting adults. Is that so bad?
LeatherNFyre said it best, BDSM is a unique experience for everyone that engages in it. Everyone should follow SSC (or RACK as some prefer), but beyond that, your mileage will definitely vary. Although many will act like their opinion is the "one true way" there is no one true way. Don't let anyone tell you that your way is wrong, if it's right for you, that's what counts. If you're playing safe (or at least as safe as you can) that's whats important. If you are getting what you need, if you are comfortable with, enjoy, are made whole, feel complete, at home with, or made happy by what you're doing, that's what really matters. Everything else? That's just BDSM fantasy material dreamed up by someone that decided somehow that what works for them must obviously work for everyone else.
More...
The fact is, subs are often pressured into playing, into being submissive, into fitting a certain preconception or mold, into be naked, into mingling, or thrust into situations where they have to deal with a "Dom ass" trying to boss them around or pressure them into things. Then you run into a conflict. Not my idea of fun.
If I attend a local group I want to find a group that I feel comfortable bringing a sub or a slave to. If everyone was up on SSC and respect, there would be no problems. There are some local groups I'm interested in attending, I haven't yet. I'm quite happy doing my own thing and reading up about the community online and not being a card-carrying member of the kinky-brigarde. Sorry if that doesn't make me a "true player." It is *MY* responsibility to make certain whatever environments I bring my subs into is a healthy one, and honestly, I haven't reached that level of trust with the community as a whole.
I said they were "freaky scary" to be humorous. You have TSP claiming someone is freak scary, that's humor, guys. HAHA? Funny? No? Oh well.
No, I am neither a psychopath nor a sociopath. I am a sadist, however, which is a perfectly valid orientation in BDSM. I'm not sure what reaction some of you would be looking for. If I denied being either a sociopath or psychopath, you'd just say it proves that it's true, and you would be right, those who suffer from sociopathy or psychopathy would deny it vehemently. I didn't *claim* to be either of those, I was accused of being a sociopath (jokingly) so I went along with it. I was *called* a psychopath by whoever writes the summaries for the episodes, and I again, humorously went along with it.
I could have thrown a fit, screamed, yelled, cursed, threatened hellfire and death at the "insult" but, that would just further prove I'm chemically imbalanced. I could have denied it, but then I'd appear defensive. Obviously humorously going along with it means I'm "claiming to be one?" Come on, guys. I'm no Saint Michael, but give me at least some benefit of doubt, aye? I'm not a serial killer, I'm not an abuser, I'm not insane. I'm just a geniunely nice guy that's intimately in touch with his dark side and likes to play with it in a safe manner with consenting adults. Is that so bad?
LeatherNFyre said it best, BDSM is a unique experience for everyone that engages in it. Everyone should follow SSC (or RACK as some prefer), but beyond that, your mileage will definitely vary. Although many will act like their opinion is the "one true way" there is no one true way. Don't let anyone tell you that your way is wrong, if it's right for you, that's what counts. If you're playing safe (or at least as safe as you can) that's whats important. If you are getting what you need, if you are comfortable with, enjoy, are made whole, feel complete, at home with, or made happy by what you're doing, that's what really matters. Everything else? That's just BDSM fantasy material dreamed up by someone that decided somehow that what works for them must obviously work for everyone else.
34
*alarm bells ringing deafeningly*
TSP is a fucking psycho and she should run. The false calm, the offhand dismissal of criticism ... and then that thing you can't put your finger on that says, BINGBINGBINGBING ... uh, yeah. Whatever a person could get out of an encounter out of this guy would never, ever be worth it.
TSP is a fucking psycho and she should run. The false calm, the offhand dismissal of criticism ... and then that thing you can't put your finger on that says, BINGBINGBINGBING ... uh, yeah. Whatever a person could get out of an encounter out of this guy would never, ever be worth it.
35
happy, and just how do you think you have to right to judge TSP? so he isn't jumping up and down raving because of some online drama, that means he is a psycho??? Wow, talk about fear mongering.
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