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News & ArtsTuesday, October 20, 2009
Homo / Religion Hey, I'm Upset With the Mormons Too...
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 8:26 AM
...but were millions of lives destroyed by Proposition 8? That seems like an unhelpful overstatement. I'm going to reserve judgment until I see The Mormon Proposition, of course, because one could make a convincing argument that anti-gay bigotry has warped and perhaps destroyed millions of lives. But Prop 8 all by its lonesome? Let's not be hysterical, people. Proposition 8 was a huge setback, a hugely depressing and hugely angering setback, and but millions of lives were not "destroyed." Prop 8 didn't even destroy the 18,000 legal same-sex marriages that took place before it was approved.
1
Exactly my thought (the trailer was great up to that point though).
We shouldn't let the anti-gays have such power over us.
We shouldn't let the anti-gays have such power over us.
2
I have no clue of the exact numbers. Maybe, millions is hyperbole? What I do know is that nearly a year later is depresses the shit out of me that my marriage with its set of mix matched genitalia is valued higher. Utter bullshit.
3
As an aside, in case you missed it in The Post this morning, apparently you know your death-style is wrong and you are the reason America is going to crumble. I'm a moral anarchist, according to this guy, if it makes you feel better. http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfai…
4
Oh, and I have to add my favorite paragraph from The Post's opinion piece:
"The culture war is up for grabs. The good news is that religious conservatives continue to breed like rabbits, while secular saboteurs have shut down: they're too busy walking their dogs, going to bathhouses and aborting their kids. Time, it seems, is on the side of the angels."
Uh huh.
"The culture war is up for grabs. The good news is that religious conservatives continue to breed like rabbits, while secular saboteurs have shut down: they're too busy walking their dogs, going to bathhouses and aborting their kids. Time, it seems, is on the side of the angels."
Uh huh.
5
@4 There's no guarantee that the children of those religious conservatives will be locked into that belief system come adulthood. I mean, if I still clung to the religious conservatism I was raised with, I wouldn't even be here, I'd be off boycotting Pepsi and protesting Planned Parenthood or something like that.
6
Seems a little hysterical.
Maybe if the gays spent less time sobbing and kissing on the sidewalks outside Mormon Temples they could get their own agenda passed instead of whining about how the 1.4% of the country that is Mormon is able to squeeze bullying the gays in between raiseng 6 kids and serving full time missions...
Maybe if the gays spent less time sobbing and kissing on the sidewalks outside Mormon Temples they could get their own agenda passed instead of whining about how the 1.4% of the country that is Mormon is able to squeeze bullying the gays in between raiseng 6 kids and serving full time missions...
7
The silver lining in all this, prop 8 woke up a generation. Young people felt the sting of discrimination in a way they never had before.
Hopefully they will learn from what happened in California and VOTE in Washington to approve 71 to keep domestic partnerships. Ballots are due Nov. 3
http://www.approve71.org
Hopefully they will learn from what happened in California and VOTE in Washington to approve 71 to keep domestic partnerships. Ballots are due Nov. 3
http://www.approve71.org
8
Prop 8 was soul-crushing, and in this way did devastate many lives. Maybe you don't understand this because you were not there and weren't personally attacked legally and emotionally by your very neighbors. It's easy to be blase two states removed and when you've never personally had full state citizenship ripped from your own hands. Try it sometime, then come back and tell us about hyperbole.
10
Prop 8 DID galvanize a generation. The hyperbole doesn't help, but The Mormons fucked up when they made this their raison d'être. Gay marriage is debated daily in the letters to the editor of the Salt Lake Tribune, and every salvo fired by the Elder Dallen Oakses of the church results in more backlash against them. A big part of the psyche of the church requires that they be martyrs, and the world wearies of it yet again. And church president/"prophet" Monson is no media savvy PR guy like dead prez Hinckley. It's only a matter of time, friends.
11
I wonder why such time, energy, and effort are made after the defeat and not during the election cycle. It's not like this information was a mystery during the fight. Here in WA the same facts are known, I hear nothing about it on the Approve R-71 radio ads (in fact I have not heard one Approve ad). Just lots of REJECT R-71 ads. I sure hope millions are not spent after the defeat of R-71 to produce a movie that tells us what we already know.
12
@9
All men are created equal.
Some wander down paths of deviancy and perversion and lose themselves.
All men are created equal.
Some wander down paths of deviancy and perversion and lose themselves.
14
@9,
Hello? You've pretty much described the whole course of American history.
@4,
The bile and vindictiveness of those people guarantees that the majority of their children will rebel against them. And you know one problem of having a litter of children? Not enough time to indoctrinate each and every one of them to the fullest extent.
Hello? You've pretty much described the whole course of American history.
@4,
The bile and vindictiveness of those people guarantees that the majority of their children will rebel against them. And you know one problem of having a litter of children? Not enough time to indoctrinate each and every one of them to the fullest extent.
15
It's refreshing to see an honest rare post from Mr. Savage. As he rightly points out even those pairings who performed a same sex marriage before Proposition 8 was approved by the people did not in any way other than perhaps their ego suffer any disruption to their lives as some would want us to believe. That is because the California domestic partnerships afforded to them provide basically all of the benefits and rights that such unions would need for their subsistence.
17
The Mormon Church seems to be headed up by a lot of powerful and evil men. The hatred they promulgate will catch up to them someday. The Book of Mormon remains one of the silliest books I ever read, like a bad parody of the KJV, and to base a religion on it seems loony at best. But their church is about power and control and money, and about the subjugation of women. Hate is their best weapon.
The Mormon Church should lose its tax-free status, along with the Catholic Church. Maybe ALL churches should.
The Mormon Church should lose its tax-free status, along with the Catholic Church. Maybe ALL churches should.
18
Loveschild, I know it's been pointed out to you, but you either didn't understand it, or refuse to acknowledge the truth. You certainly are good at putting your fingers in your ears and screaming loudly, "Lalalalala! I can't hear you!" Domestic partnerships do not provide the same civil rights as marriage.
19
I agree that perhaps the word "destroyed" may be a little harsh (maybe, maybe not - I'm not in Cali, and I'm not a 'mo), but I do think it was a HUGE slap in the face of all those wonderful, forward-thinking people who support the gays and their families.
Domestic partnerships, civil unions - they are NOT the same. Why is it that my cousin should have to provide documents proving she has power of attorney and such simply to visit her girlfriend in the hospital when I was able to walk in and out of my husband's room with nothing more than a simple "I'm his wife." No proof of documentation or identification needed. Something about that doesn't seem right. And to those of you who think it does, maybe you should say it out loud a few times before you understand my point. It's wrong to deny someone access to her lover simply because they are the same gender.
Domestic partnerships, civil unions - they are NOT the same. Why is it that my cousin should have to provide documents proving she has power of attorney and such simply to visit her girlfriend in the hospital when I was able to walk in and out of my husband's room with nothing more than a simple "I'm his wife." No proof of documentation or identification needed. Something about that doesn't seem right. And to those of you who think it does, maybe you should say it out loud a few times before you understand my point. It's wrong to deny someone access to her lover simply because they are the same gender.
20
And it's a shame that it's going to take a few more years for same gender marriage to become legal in the entirety of the United States under the equal protection clause, but nothing comes without sacrifice. As the saying goes, "Rome wasn't built in a day."
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary" - Anonymous
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary" - Anonymous
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18
R71:Concise Description: This bill would expand the rights, responsibilities, and obligations accorded state-registered same-sex and senior domestic partners to provide the same civil rights as marriage, except that a domestic partnership is not a marriage.
R71:Concise Description: This bill would expand the rights, responsibilities, and obligations accorded state-registered same-sex and senior domestic partners to provide the same civil rights as marriage, except that a domestic partnership is not a marriage.
23
From a person who lost a friend in high school to suicide because of not being able to face his homosexuality I do believe that this has ruined millions of lives from the past, present and in the future. To anyone who is a parent out there, children have a very hard time telling this truth to their parent even if their parents are gay. They have to deal with bullying, beatings, extortion and worse their entire lives. This is at that basis for low self esteem and self-homophobia. Until we are accepted by society fully; not just tolerated, we can pretend to be proud of what we do but then leave and go into main stream society and ask yourslef "How can you be?"
24
Allegedly @12, Humans aren't created equal. I only have to look at the guy in a wheelchair next to me to know this. But our country is founded on the idea all men (and as it should be, all women) are equal under law.
That means that your idea of deviancy and perversion is no more valid than anyone else's, you have to prove that harm is caused by an allegedly deviant or perverse behavior.
That means that your idea of deviancy and perversion is no more valid than anyone else's, you have to prove that harm is caused by an allegedly deviant or perverse behavior.
25
Loveschild @15 You apparently have not kept up on current events. Nor have you been reading the stories.
Truly, Loveschild, despite the evidence to the contrary, I hope your lack of tact in this regard is for ignorance, and not for apathy of those who've been directly impacted by this kind of discrimination.
Truly, Loveschild, despite the evidence to the contrary, I hope your lack of tact in this regard is for ignorance, and not for apathy of those who've been directly impacted by this kind of discrimination.
26
Regarding the trailer, it does smell of hyperbole, but I really cannot say, since I set a high bar for one's life being ruined, as opposed to one's day or year. Indeed, while I have plenty of empathy for the emotional impact of getting plutoed for one's personal nature, I'm neither gay nor expecting to marry in my life (a la Quinten), so I really can't know for sure how harsh it is.
Marriages have so far been delayed, or forced to occur in another state, but neither of these are necessarily life-ruining. I would be surprised if the number of people whose marriages got delayed due to 8, and then suffered legally as a consequence would number in the millions.
Still, LDS' activist involvement with the passing of prop 8 was a severe thermobaric-dick move, and entirely contrary to the trademark niceness for which they are stereotyped at the interpersonal and family level.
Marriages have so far been delayed, or forced to occur in another state, but neither of these are necessarily life-ruining. I would be surprised if the number of people whose marriages got delayed due to 8, and then suffered legally as a consequence would number in the millions.
Still, LDS' activist involvement with the passing of prop 8 was a severe thermobaric-dick move, and entirely contrary to the trademark niceness for which they are stereotyped at the interpersonal and family level.
28
My life was not destroyed: It was unfairly burdened and unjustly limited, but far from destroyed. You can't let the actions of stupid people control or define you.
29
There are millions of gay people in CA, and their rights were stolen from them by lying bigots. How is that not destructive?
30
Kira @29, I think there's a difference between [an event or law] being destructive, and having one's life destroyed or ruined [by said event or law]. The former meaning damage was done, which is unquestioned when it comes to proposition 8. I think for one's life to be ruined by prop 8, it would mean
a. A couple planning to get married were prohibited from doing so, or if they already were, were regarded as unmarried in order for...
b. A significant legal effect of being married to which this couple would have had access, but thanks to Prop 8 were denied and...
c. For that legal effect to have had significant emotional, financial or property management repercussions for the couple. Being charged extra at the water slides would be inconvenient and unfair, but not life ruinous. Denial of access to a partner on her deathbed, or the loss of life insurance or the effective challenging of a will by distant family could more feasibly qualify.
To be sure, lives were ruined by prop 8 (which sucks in and of itself), but the question is if millions were.
a. A couple planning to get married were prohibited from doing so, or if they already were, were regarded as unmarried in order for...
b. A significant legal effect of being married to which this couple would have had access, but thanks to Prop 8 were denied and...
c. For that legal effect to have had significant emotional, financial or property management repercussions for the couple. Being charged extra at the water slides would be inconvenient and unfair, but not life ruinous. Denial of access to a partner on her deathbed, or the loss of life insurance or the effective challenging of a will by distant family could more feasibly qualify.
To be sure, lives were ruined by prop 8 (which sucks in and of itself), but the question is if millions were.
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