Tuesday, October 20, 2009
Homo / Religion Damn You, Catholic Church
Posted by Brendan Kiley on Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 1:20 PM
And I don't say that lightly. I grew up Catholic, was a true-blue believer, read (and even gave occasional homilies) at mass through high school, and I'm still suffering a bit from the hangover.
Watching the church shuck and jive its way around the issue of rampant and chronic child molestation has helped. Writing this story—about the church knowingly dumping child molesters on Native Alaskan communities where they could do maximum damage with minimum consequences—has helped.
But today's story in the New York Times, about the Church making it easier for homophobic Anglicans to become Catholics is the final nail in my childhood faith:
VATICAN CITY — In an extraordinary bid to lure traditionalist Anglicans en masse, the Vatican on Tuesday announced that it would make it easier for Anglicans who are uncomfortable with their church’s acceptance of women priests and openly gay bishops to join the Roman Catholic Church.
The Church is willing to undermine some of its own traditions—like elements of the liturgy—in order to become a haven for homo-haters and male chauvinists. It's throwing away its more benign traditions to preserve the more malignant ones.
Understand, tradition is what makes Catholics Catholics. Their stubborn refusal to move with the times is angering when it comes to issues like birth control and sexuality and lady priests, but it's also the Church's greatest asset. (Like Ignatius J. Reilly, I think the Church sorta fucked up and betrayed its essence with Vatican II, even though it was a liberalizing move.)
The Church is slow and lumbering and only got around to exonerating Galileo several hundred years too late. But now, when there's a chance for the Church to become a haven for homophobes—only now—it kicks into high gear.
The Church is so anti-gay, it's willing to allow—gasp—married priests. Sane, liberal Catholics have been asking for married priests for decades, even centuries, and only now, to preserve its benighted policy of sexual fear and loathing, does the Church capitulate. [I was wrong: converted and married Anglican priests have been allowed since the 1990s. That happened to allow conservative Anglicans to convert to Catholicism as their church split over the ordination of female priests: a prelude to today's broader and more fundamentally rotten announcement.]
The move creates a formal structure to oversee conversions that had previously been evaluated case by case, including those of married Anglican priests, who are permitted to remain married after they convert to Catholicism. Called Personal Ordinariates, the structure will consist of local Catholic faithful overseen by Anglican prelates who will provide guidance to Anglicans — including entire parishes or even dioceses — seeking to convert.Under the new regime, former Anglicans who become Catholic can preserve some liturgical elements of the Anglican Mass, including hymns.
As such, the structure could conceivably create a new, separate and hybrid Catholic Church in a place like Britain, where Anglicans now vastly outnumber Catholics.
The Church is willing to risk a schism to preserve its moronic homophobia.
That's it, Catholic Church.
I'm done hedging and making excuses and trying to play up the good things about you to the Catholic-haters out there. (Medieval hymns! Irish literature! Jesuits in Central America, fightin' imperialism [once they were done fighting for it]! Sweet old Saint Francis! JFK!)
You aren't just misguided—you are theologically hypocritical from steeple to cellar. At long, long last you've completely and totally lost me.
(Sorry, ma.)
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2
God must love hateful, sadistic, misanthropic sub-morons, considering that He created so many of them.
3
Is there anything more irrelevant than the Catholic Church? My hope for the future is for people to rationalize themselves out of their religion, but brainwashing can be a mighty powerful tool. Religion is pernicious mythology specifically designed to keep the "little people" in line.
Really, how does the Pope do it with a straight face? - addressing an audience of the poor and the downtrodden with his message of "be fruitful and multiply" while wearing $6000 gowns and Prada shoes.
Really, how does the Pope do it with a straight face? - addressing an audience of the poor and the downtrodden with his message of "be fruitful and multiply" while wearing $6000 gowns and Prada shoes.
4
@ 3,
Wasn't it George Carlin that said something like "think about the dumbest person that you know; half of all people are even dumber than that."
Case closed.
Wasn't it George Carlin that said something like "think about the dumbest person that you know; half of all people are even dumber than that."
Case closed.
5
Actually, the Catholic Church has allowed married Anglican priests to convert and remain married since 1980. There are also married priests in the Eastern Catholic/Eastern Rite churches that recognize the primacy of the pope. It's a weird holdout from the Great Schism that has divided eastern and and western Christianity for the past 1000 years.
The big news from today's announcement isn't so much that the Pope is welcoming married Anglicans, but rather the blatant appeal to bigotry in order to undermine the Anglican Union. As a recovered Catholic, I'm disgusted but not surprised.
The big news from today's announcement isn't so much that the Pope is welcoming married Anglicans, but rather the blatant appeal to bigotry in order to undermine the Anglican Union. As a recovered Catholic, I'm disgusted but not surprised.
6
congratulations on the abandonment of childhood faith. you should thank the church for your new state of awareness.
7
And before anybody else says it: I realize taking a stand against Catholicism on Slog is daring and controversial. My bravery knows no bounds.
You're welcome.
You're welcome.
9
@3 Don't throw out the wheat with the chaff. Yes the Church has many short comings, but it is far from irrelevant. As the OP alluded to, there is possibly no stronger force for social justice in Latin America than the Catholic Church (and specifically the Jesuits).
Not only that, they were often times at the forefront of the Civil Rights Movement, or at least so said some dude named MLK in this little thing called Letter from a Birmingham Jail:
"I commend the Catholic leaders of this state for integrating Spring Hill College several years ago."
http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen…
Yes they are wrong on this issue, and many other, but to say the church is irrelevant is to only display your ignorance.
Not only that, they were often times at the forefront of the Civil Rights Movement, or at least so said some dude named MLK in this little thing called Letter from a Birmingham Jail:
"I commend the Catholic leaders of this state for integrating Spring Hill College several years ago."
http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen…
Yes they are wrong on this issue, and many other, but to say the church is irrelevant is to only display your ignorance.
11
@5 is right, and there has also been a mechanism in place for years to allow married Episcopal/Anglican priests to become Catholic priests. They were/are limited in the types of ministries they can do (very rarely would they be a senior pastor, for instance), but it exists.
From the first time I heard that was possible, I found it incredibly hypocritical, and it was one of the things that hastened my departure from Catholicism. And actually, a lot of priests who did things the "right way" are pretty pissed off about that. In the diocese I used to work in, they ordained a married former Episcopal priest. The pastor of the congregation I was working in was really, really angry, as were most of the pastors in his support group. It didn't make sense to them that they had been living a celibate life (well, CLAIMING to live a celibate life - I could tell stories) for forty years and all of a sudden the rules changed.
The fact of the matter is that the Catholic church is so desperate for priests in most western countries that they will do anything. Well, anything short of ordaining faithful, married life-long Catholics, women, or openly gay men. That would be just icky.
From the first time I heard that was possible, I found it incredibly hypocritical, and it was one of the things that hastened my departure from Catholicism. And actually, a lot of priests who did things the "right way" are pretty pissed off about that. In the diocese I used to work in, they ordained a married former Episcopal priest. The pastor of the congregation I was working in was really, really angry, as were most of the pastors in his support group. It didn't make sense to them that they had been living a celibate life (well, CLAIMING to live a celibate life - I could tell stories) for forty years and all of a sudden the rules changed.
The fact of the matter is that the Catholic church is so desperate for priests in most western countries that they will do anything. Well, anything short of ordaining faithful, married life-long Catholics, women, or openly gay men. That would be just icky.
12
@7, it's just that no one really cares about the Catholic Church. I mean your posting compared to priests raping little boys just doesn't hold up Brendan. Now if you claim you were raped by a group of bishops people on slog would have a much more active interest...
13
My mom has her Catholic prayer group pray for me to return to the fold. Not going to happen.
On the other hand, one of her Christmas presents is that I don't make a fuss about attending mass with the family. It's only an hour a year for mom -- and it reminds me to be grateful that I gave up the whole Catholic thing one year for Lent and never went back.
On the other hand, one of her Christmas presents is that I don't make a fuss about attending mass with the family. It's only an hour a year for mom -- and it reminds me to be grateful that I gave up the whole Catholic thing one year for Lent and never went back.
15
@ 12. The pedophile issue is a huge one, Cato, but is perpetrated by rotten individuals, not theological doctrine. So even though the human cost is greater, one could still profess Catholicism while condemning the (many, many) individuals who allowed the abuse to occur.
17
@14. Depends what you mean. I don't think any of us are excused from treating others with basic decency and a modicum of kindness. But then I no longer think the threat of divine retribution or fear of burning for all eternity is necessary to enforce good behavior.
But just in case, I've asked my friends to include a box of graham crackers, marshmallows and a couple of chocolate bars in my coffin. S'mores in hell, anyone?
But just in case, I've asked my friends to include a box of graham crackers, marshmallows and a couple of chocolate bars in my coffin. S'mores in hell, anyone?
19
The Catholic Church has the blood of millions of innocents on its hands, and a Nazi as its current leader.
It should be burned from existence and laughed out of memory.
It should be burned from existence and laughed out of memory.
22
If they just tossed out the pederast priests and let the current ones marry like Jesus and his Disciples did, none of this would be a problem.
24
@9 Oh how nice, social justice. I guess that makes up for the millions of people in Africa that have died by their misinformation on AIDS
25
It should also be noted that while Brendan has corrected the OP to some extent it is still not complete.
First off all while it can be argued that allowing woman priests was the reason many Anglican priests wanted to return to the Catholic Church, that was the reason why they were allowed in.
The deal is with the Historical Succession of Bishops. Priests from churches (not just Anglican, but Lutheran, Eastern Orthodox, etc) that followed the Succession of Bishops going back to St. Peter (supposedly) have pretty much always been allowed to return to the Church. B/c they were appointed by people, who were appointed by people, who were appointed by people (add a couple hundred in here) who were appointed by Peter who was appointed by God, and given the the power to establish his Church, they are allowed to return.
All Churches (and Priests, Bishops, etc) that followed the Historical Succession of Bishops are allowed to Return to the church, not just those that allow the Ordination of Woman or Homosexuals.
First off all while it can be argued that allowing woman priests was the reason many Anglican priests wanted to return to the Catholic Church, that was the reason why they were allowed in.
The deal is with the Historical Succession of Bishops. Priests from churches (not just Anglican, but Lutheran, Eastern Orthodox, etc) that followed the Succession of Bishops going back to St. Peter (supposedly) have pretty much always been allowed to return to the Church. B/c they were appointed by people, who were appointed by people, who were appointed by people (add a couple hundred in here) who were appointed by Peter who was appointed by God, and given the the power to establish his Church, they are allowed to return.
All Churches (and Priests, Bishops, etc) that followed the Historical Succession of Bishops are allowed to Return to the church, not just those that allow the Ordination of Woman or Homosexuals.
26
@24, While I believe the Church's stance on condoms is dead wrong, It should be noted that when outright falsehoods were stated, the Church forced those who made them to recant.
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNew…
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNew…
27
@26 Great! but it's absolutely meaningless if contraception is still banned by the Vatican and they teach abstinence and monogamy instead of realistic practices that actually reduce AIDS. Perpetuating their theology is more important than human life.
28
@27 To my knowledge the country in which the Vatican has the authority to ban condom usage is Vatican City.
Yes they are wrong when it comes to contraceptives, but as long as people are allowed to choose between following church teaching (which, would also involve abstinence until marriage and then monogamy, not just lack of condom usage) I don't see how you can say they are forcing anyone to do anything.
Yes they are wrong when it comes to contraceptives, but as long as people are allowed to choose between following church teaching (which, would also involve abstinence until marriage and then monogamy, not just lack of condom usage) I don't see how you can say they are forcing anyone to do anything.
29
@28 But the Vatican, like you said, has large and extensive power and influence. The Vatican and their lobbying has banned contraceptives and abortion in many African countries and in many places, their ministries are the only schools or medical facilities, and their teachings are the only available information on sex. So please, tell me what other choice an African woman has when her husband with AIDS wants to have sex with her and condom usage is unavailable, is a sin against God, or results in excommunication? What other choice does a person have when they are told sex is bad, not to use condoms, but it's never explained that anal sex also spreads AIDS? What other choice does a person have when their country is majority Catholic and the govt follows the Vatican's guidance that condoms are not the answer to ending AIDS?
30
The Catholic Church irrelevant? Hardly! They have joined with the evangelicals on Prop 8 in CA and Ref 71 here. They are major players.
31
@29, In what countries is condom usage actually banned? And in what countries are NGOs not allowed in? And in what countries has the Church installed a dictatorship that doesn't allow it's people to vote it's leaders out (I'm talking modern day here)?
Or is that all just hyperbole?
And how is that a protestant country like S. Africa has one of the worse AIDS epidemics on the continent. What evil Catholic machinations are behind that?
Or is that all just hyperbole?
And how is that a protestant country like S. Africa has one of the worse AIDS epidemics on the continent. What evil Catholic machinations are behind that?
32
@21
Sarah Silverman made a video saying the same thing.
This has been making the internet rounds.
Sell The Vatican, Feed The World
Like her or hate her, it's no an unconvincing argument.
Sarah Silverman made a video saying the same thing.
This has been making the internet rounds.
Sell The Vatican, Feed The World
Like her or hate her, it's no an unconvincing argument.
33
"[I was wrong: converted and married Anglican priests have been allowed since the 1990s. That happened to allow conservative Anglicans to convert to Catholicism as their church split over the ordination of female priests: a prelude to today's broader and more fundamentally rotten announcement.]"
I get why this announcement is broader, but why is it "more fundamentally rotten"? Is encouraging homophobia worse than encouraging the idea that women are second-class citizens even in God's eyes?
More support for this statement, please.
I get why this announcement is broader, but why is it "more fundamentally rotten"? Is encouraging homophobia worse than encouraging the idea that women are second-class citizens even in God's eyes?
More support for this statement, please.
36
I was quite the Catholic in my youth also. But in my defense, I was raised by enlightened Catholics who taught us about the better things in the church (social justice, support for the rights of labor, opposition to the death penalty and the Viet Nam war). My folks knew lots of Jesuits, who were interesting, intelligent men, and a lot of nuns who did social advocacy work, and were involved in things like the Catholic Worker movement. We had a Bishop who was always getting arrested for protesting at places like the Strategic Air Command - it was a really neat environment, and I can honestly say that no one ever laid a hand on me.
All of those Jesuits are dead, most of the nuns have jumped the fence, the Bishop is long gone and my parent's parish - which used to be headed up by a former WWII Navy guy who was a smart and honorable man, and a diehard new-dealer - is now headed up by a GOP shill with the intellect of a lunchbox. Even my mom, who is still pretty hardcore Catholic, thinks he's a fool.
In a way, I owe my refreshing lack of faith to all the good faithful, both clergy and non-clergy, that I knew growing up, who believed in a forward-looking, progressive church. And while I've left almost everything behind, I cherish my Catholic guilt, for it does occasionally nudge me when I'm feeling a bit too self-satisfied.
All of those Jesuits are dead, most of the nuns have jumped the fence, the Bishop is long gone and my parent's parish - which used to be headed up by a former WWII Navy guy who was a smart and honorable man, and a diehard new-dealer - is now headed up by a GOP shill with the intellect of a lunchbox. Even my mom, who is still pretty hardcore Catholic, thinks he's a fool.
In a way, I owe my refreshing lack of faith to all the good faithful, both clergy and non-clergy, that I knew growing up, who believed in a forward-looking, progressive church. And while I've left almost everything behind, I cherish my Catholic guilt, for it does occasionally nudge me when I'm feeling a bit too self-satisfied.
37
@ 33. Because while the Church won't let ladies be priests, it doesn't say ladies are condemned for all time for just being ladies.
38
Catholics really know how to brain wash children. It's their only attribute. Sick fucking religion.
39
There are people here that defend this cult organization that has admitted and gotten away with child rape over most of the world.
X Brainwashed
X Brainwashed
40
Y'all are missing a very important set of points.
Do read Christianity's New Center in the September 12, 2002 Atlantic Monthly.
Do read Christianity's New Center in the September 12, 2002 Atlantic Monthly.
Americans are all but unaware of what is one of the most important shifts of the twentieth century—the explosive growth of Christianity in the Southern Hemisphere.
[...]
The Christianity practiced in Africa, Latin America, and Asia tends to be much more rigidly conservative and traditional than that of the North
[...]
The places where Christianity is spreading and mutating are also places where the population levels are rising quickly—and, if Jenkins's predictions hold true—will continue to rise throughout the next century. The center of gravity of the Christian world has shifted from Europe and the United States to the Southern Hemisphere and, Jenkins believes, it will never shift back. So when American Catholics, for instance, talk about the necessity and the inevitability of reforms (reforms that Southern Catholics would most likely not condone), they do so without fully realizing that their views on the subject are becoming increasingly irrelevant, because the demographic future of their Church lies elsewhere.
42
I grew up in the Catholic church. What I learned in Catholic school of Jesus' teachings, especially his words in Matthew 25:31-46 regarding "the least of my people", is what has given me a strong sense of what is right and wrong; that's stayed with me even though I'm agnostic now.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea…
Of course that was in the 1970s, shortly after Vatican II. More and more, however, the Church has become the refuge of reactionaries and scoundrels. Perverts and hypocrites? It's always had those, but before the child-molestation scandals came out the Church lost me when the priests reminded me to vote for the "pro-life" politicians every Sunday around election time. Of course the Church has a strong anti-abortion position, but it's also against war, capital punishment, poverty, hunger, and economic injustice; things that the "pro-life" candidates enthusiastically support. And lets not forget their stance on homosexuality; when the priesthood is the worlds oldest and largest gay men's club.
So now they're taking Anglican bigots looking to flee their church because it's becoming too progressive? Even waiving the centuries-old priestly celibacy requirement for them; but not for born Catholics? I guess the celibacy requirement was never really that important. Maybe the Anglicans can swap their reactionaries for Catholic progressives.
"Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Matthew 25: 41
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea…
Of course that was in the 1970s, shortly after Vatican II. More and more, however, the Church has become the refuge of reactionaries and scoundrels. Perverts and hypocrites? It's always had those, but before the child-molestation scandals came out the Church lost me when the priests reminded me to vote for the "pro-life" politicians every Sunday around election time. Of course the Church has a strong anti-abortion position, but it's also against war, capital punishment, poverty, hunger, and economic injustice; things that the "pro-life" candidates enthusiastically support. And lets not forget their stance on homosexuality; when the priesthood is the worlds oldest and largest gay men's club.
So now they're taking Anglican bigots looking to flee their church because it's becoming too progressive? Even waiving the centuries-old priestly celibacy requirement for them; but not for born Catholics? I guess the celibacy requirement was never really that important. Maybe the Anglicans can swap their reactionaries for Catholic progressives.
"Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Matthew 25: 41
43
@42 - Steve, my experience was similar. In the 70's and even into the early 80's, they had dumped the Baltimore Catechism as a curriculum and didn't have anything to replace it. The nuns and brand new lay teachers were kind of lost without that rote stuff. They taught us about social justice, and they taught us that God loves us, but that was about it.
Now, the curriculum is all about doctrine, from the earliest grades on. It is much more conservative, and much more...traditional for lack of a better word.
It kinda makes me sad, even though I'm not a part of the tribe anymore.
Now, the curriculum is all about doctrine, from the earliest grades on. It is much more conservative, and much more...traditional for lack of a better word.
It kinda makes me sad, even though I'm not a part of the tribe anymore.
44
Here is how I feel about this in very succinct words: "When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know, the end result is tyranny and oppression no matter how holy the motives. - Robert A. Heinlein"
45
Having been young once myself, I was of the same mindset & opinion as most of the people on this blog/rant forum. I had no beliefs or faith in any religious denomination even though I was baptized in the Methodist church as a child. That's about as far as my religious education went. For 40 yrs, I made no claim to a spiritual life. One day I decided to read the Bible and it was a defining moment in my life. I became a Catholic at 51 yrs of age. I'm sure you're not going to change your minds at your ages (I didn't ) but perhaps when you mature into your older years you may see things differently. I'm happy where I am and sorry I didn't take it more seriously as a younger person. I wish you all a good life.
Prayers for you...
Tim
Prayers for you...
Tim
46
Another facet to this, Rome has shifted her position regarding The Big Sort. There has been an intentional pull from the right to segregate Churches and congregations along political and other lines while the left, valuing diversity as it does, has resisted. This is particularly so within Anglicanism. And there has been, until now, a sort of Detente between Canterbury and Rome, a mutual agreement to not try to steal members. But there comes a tipping point where things are sorted enough that you just have to give up on the diversity idea and now that Rome has violated the big sort let's go for it. Rome can have Akinola and Canterbury can have Dorothy Day and Synods and conventions will be peaceful again.
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