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News & ArtsFriday, October 16, 2009
Books / Money The Rand Economy
Posted by Paul Constant on Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:03 PM
I don't usually pay a lot of attention to the Daily Show's interviews unless Jon Stewart obviously hates the person he's interviewing. But this interview with Jennifer Burns is interesting. Burns is the author of Goddess of the Market, a new book about why Ayn Rand is still considered an economic icon. Burns discusses how Rand is currently surging among conservatives, despite her atheism:
| The Daily Show With Jon Stewart | Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c | |||
| Jennifer Burns | ||||
| ||||
I know what book I'm reading this weekend.
2
Poor Ayn. The only thing that kept her from being a world-class romance novelist was the lack of a good editor.
3
Ayn Rand was the biggest bullshit artist of all time. A total fraud -- she reached her status not by following her own philosphy but by climbing over the faces of people who tried to help her, and by sowing discord amongst her own followers in a style heavily reminiscent of Josef Stalin. And she was a terrible novelist. Her prose style makes Bulwer-Lytton read like Raymond Carver.
4
Fnarf is right. She's just a sad sad woman who was miffed cause her parents got their stuff taken away and then tried to turn the US into a bizarro version of Russia.
At least she had a sex drive and admitted it.
At least she had a sex drive and admitted it.
5
I don't understand what Ayn Rand has to do with economics. "Just be greedy" doesn't seem to be much of an economic system.
7
Thanks for the video, Paul... When Jon Stewart is interviewing someone really smart and clear about a subject he knows about, it's really obvious he's a wicked smart guy himself. Seriously good viewing.
8
And her satanicly evil brain child, Alan Greenspan has admitted that her philosophy doesn't work. He admitted to congress that selfish elites unbound by regulation caused the ecconomic meltdown. They pursued their own selfish intrests to the detriment of their own selfish intrests. They are embracing a philosophy that encourages them to dismantle the social support structure that holds them up so high. Republicans are spoiled selfish children that cannot be trusted with any power over anyone.
10
Take the book. I mean, literally, take it, from someone who owns it.
Tear it up and burn it right in front of them.
That's what she deserves.
Tear it up and burn it right in front of them.
That's what she deserves.
11
(not the book by the woman who was on the Daily Show, I mean Atlas Shrugged or anything else by Ayn)
12
The Fountainhead is my all time favorite novel. I really loved it all the way through. Of course, even while reading it I knew there was no way objectivism could work in the real world, but I loved the story. Great fiction.
I was less impressed with Atlas Shrugged (but probably because if you've read one Rand novel, you've read them all).
I was less impressed with Atlas Shrugged (but probably because if you've read one Rand novel, you've read them all).
15
@12, Every Ayn Rand Novel:
Male character is frustrated with the collectivists condemning him to a banal career.
Male character exits the system and tries to live on his own terms.
Male character beats down and fucks female character who loves every minute of it.
Male character builds some masterpiece hoobajoob.
Male character fights battle over said hoobajoob and wins.
Female character thinks male character is the shit for winning.
Male character is frustrated with the collectivists condemning him to a banal career.
Male character exits the system and tries to live on his own terms.
Male character beats down and fucks female character who loves every minute of it.
Male character builds some masterpiece hoobajoob.
Male character fights battle over said hoobajoob and wins.
Female character thinks male character is the shit for winning.
16
Urgutha, I enjoyed "The Fountainhead" as well, once I learned to skip over all of the forty page sermons the characters tended to make.
17
@16 Same here. @15 is spot on as an assessment of the plots, but liberals forgive me, the characters pulled me in and I cared what happened to them even as then annoyed me.
18
@15,16,17...
Hey, no disagreement from me! Like I said, it's pure fiction, but I simply found it to be a page-turner (minus the sermons). I also liked Heinlein's "starship troopers" even though it's also purely fiction as well as being practically a military recruiting manual... interesting characters and story though.
Hey, no disagreement from me! Like I said, it's pure fiction, but I simply found it to be a page-turner (minus the sermons). I also liked Heinlein's "starship troopers" even though it's also purely fiction as well as being practically a military recruiting manual... interesting characters and story though.
19
"I know what book I'm reading this weekend."
The Objectivist Reader?
Me, I'll watch Vidor's film adaptation of "The Fountainhead" while fantasizing about raping Dominique Francon (A young Patricia Neal; mmm, such a husky voice!) after a hard day's work at the quarry and then pretend I'm not thinking about Ellsworth Toohey.
The Objectivist Reader?
Me, I'll watch Vidor's film adaptation of "The Fountainhead" while fantasizing about raping Dominique Francon (A young Patricia Neal; mmm, such a husky voice!) after a hard day's work at the quarry and then pretend I'm not thinking about Ellsworth Toohey.
20
@17, 18, 19, yup I definitely liked her novels. The sermons in Atlas Shrugged were a bit tedious at times, but I liked the characters and got sucked in as well.
These conservative pundits must like her fiscal conservatism while turning a blind eye to her libertarian views on social issues. Heaven forbid people should exercise the sanctity of contract for gay shit or exercise their right to have a bong hit.
These conservative pundits must like her fiscal conservatism while turning a blind eye to her libertarian views on social issues. Heaven forbid people should exercise the sanctity of contract for gay shit or exercise their right to have a bong hit.
22
Actually, it occurs to me that Fox News is an awful lot like the New York Banner. Does that make Rupert Murdoch or Roger Ailes Gayle Wynand?
25
Anyone here ever read Sewer, Gas and Electric: A Public Services Trilogy by Matt (Fool on the Hill) Ruff? Amidst the multicolored plot is a neat refutation of Ayn Rand. A must read for anyone who like environmentalism, Disney, robots, and NYC.
27
A review of this book (more like a long essay about Rand) here, that's got a lot of good shitte in it:
http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-art…
My fave part is that the Bolsheviks appropriating pappy's business was not her original property rights trauma. It was her mother taking her toys and giving them to charity.
http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-art…
My fave part is that the Bolsheviks appropriating pappy's business was not her original property rights trauma. It was her mother taking her toys and giving them to charity.
28
Thanks Ayn Rand, but it's in my rational self-interest to have public roads to get me places and goods to the store, public schools that gave me a shot at an education, free parks to hang out in, food stamps if I'm out of money, UI if I'm out of a job, and free healthcare (to keep me healthy and therefor able to work!) if I'm sick. All the benefits of the welfare state are a small price to pay, and being government-run there is at least some attempt at accountability and fairness.
An absence of government can be appealing in theory but I really have no desire to turn the U.S. into Somalia. And for all those rich dudes bitching about high taxes: yeah, but throughout history people are either bought off or they overthrow people. So we have a welfare state for them, subsidized telecommunications (hello, opiates!) and subsidized high-fructose corn syrup and other junk food to keep them in a whale-like physical state and probably a little slower mentally. The poor and lower classes are doing well enough for walmarts, Nabisco and the makers of Snuggies to have a sweet racket, it wouldn't be so were it not for a welfare state.
Who is John Galt? Fiction, thats who! I wonder how many conservatives knew Rand condemned Reagan for cozying up to the religious right...
An absence of government can be appealing in theory but I really have no desire to turn the U.S. into Somalia. And for all those rich dudes bitching about high taxes: yeah, but throughout history people are either bought off or they overthrow people. So we have a welfare state for them, subsidized telecommunications (hello, opiates!) and subsidized high-fructose corn syrup and other junk food to keep them in a whale-like physical state and probably a little slower mentally. The poor and lower classes are doing well enough for walmarts, Nabisco and the makers of Snuggies to have a sweet racket, it wouldn't be so were it not for a welfare state.
Who is John Galt? Fiction, thats who! I wonder how many conservatives knew Rand condemned Reagan for cozying up to the religious right...
29
It is INSANE that Ayn Rand is becoming popular again now. After all we've been through. I think we're in a lot of trouble when much of this country hasn't yet learned that reckless, unregulated capitalism has the potential to crash the global economy
I like this author : )
I like this author : )
30
I've been telling this to people for years! And I mean years! I was raised on the philosophy of Ayn Rand. Scary I know. Spent many years putting my head back on straight. Those of you who are interested, I have started a blog regarding my experience with the movement (which includes the mystery of Ayn Rand's cat, Tommy, who I actually lived with). I think if I'd lived with Rand, I'd have had to kill her. Link: http://kirarand.livejournal.com/1558.htm…
31
P.S. Folks. Note that Alan Greenspan, who was a member of Rand's inner circle (did you guys know that? -- it's probably in the book), admitted that he had been WRONG about the ability of the market to regulate itself after all these years. Have to give him credit for having the integrity to admit this. Interesting that Republicans have overlooked his statements.
32
I'm new at all this. Wrong link for blog above: http://kirarand.livejournal.com/
I love you guys! You are all right on. Particularly #5. "Just be greedy" seemed to be the sum of it. Most of her followers who do attain financial success are still miserable people. Take a look at Objectivist blogs if you ever want to see what kind of mean-spirited people her philosophy attracts.
KESHMESHI, I KNOW A LOT ABOUT RAND BUT NOT THE DISMEMBERING GUY! CARE TO ENLIGHTEN?
I love you guys! You are all right on. Particularly #5. "Just be greedy" seemed to be the sum of it. Most of her followers who do attain financial success are still miserable people. Take a look at Objectivist blogs if you ever want to see what kind of mean-spirited people her philosophy attracts.
KESHMESHI, I KNOW A LOT ABOUT RAND BUT NOT THE DISMEMBERING GUY! CARE TO ENLIGHTEN?
33
8, Rand did break from Greenspan in her later years. His eventual rejection of fully free markets is not a sign that Objectivism is flawed, but a sign that he was more concerned with gaining power and influence than with staying true to the philosophy he once upheld.
29, You overlook the fact that the "capitalist" economic structure of the United States has, for most of its history, been a heavily mixed economy (partly free, but with hefty measures of government control and regulation). The crisis resulted not from the elements of freedom in that system, but from the elements of control and regulation. See "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal" for a fuller explanation.
29, You overlook the fact that the "capitalist" economic structure of the United States has, for most of its history, been a heavily mixed economy (partly free, but with hefty measures of government control and regulation). The crisis resulted not from the elements of freedom in that system, but from the elements of control and regulation. See "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal" for a fuller explanation.
34
"The crisis resulted not from the elements of freedom in that system, but from the elements of control and regulation"
Oh Jesus - If you are really that gullible, how do you keep yourself from answering every spam email you get?
Dearest, listen to Catalina: The great depression happened because of lack of "control and regulation". We put in regulation, and things worked good for forty years or so. Then we started loosening the rules, based on some very dumb concepts, including those of Miss Rand, and everything went to hell. That's all there is to it, really.
Greed is not good, but it's human. We're never going to get rid of it, so we might as well embrace it and try to control it.
Oh Jesus - If you are really that gullible, how do you keep yourself from answering every spam email you get?
Dearest, listen to Catalina: The great depression happened because of lack of "control and regulation". We put in regulation, and things worked good for forty years or so. Then we started loosening the rules, based on some very dumb concepts, including those of Miss Rand, and everything went to hell. That's all there is to it, really.
Greed is not good, but it's human. We're never going to get rid of it, so we might as well embrace it and try to control it.
35
@33 Brendan, you cannot convince me that cause and effect are unrelated to each other. You should stop trying to convince yourself. they deregulated the housing market and deregulated how debt was chopped and sold. Given their new freedom, the self interested took advantage, and tanked the economy they depend on to generate their wealth. It's too simple to confuse people about.
We all breath the same air. We all get the same ammount of sick if our water is filled with toxic chemicals. You want to give millionaires the right to poison their own air in the pursuit of profit. It doesn't make sense for anybody to support your philosophy because it ignores the very basic fact of our interconnectedness and dependence on each other. Ayn Rand was an ignorant sociopath, and the fact that people follow her is a cosmic scale joke.
We all breath the same air. We all get the same ammount of sick if our water is filled with toxic chemicals. You want to give millionaires the right to poison their own air in the pursuit of profit. It doesn't make sense for anybody to support your philosophy because it ignores the very basic fact of our interconnectedness and dependence on each other. Ayn Rand was an ignorant sociopath, and the fact that people follow her is a cosmic scale joke.
36
"She also had a crush on a man who kidnapped and dismembered a young girl. Rand was pathological. "
Besides that the modern GOPers and faux-independents just LOVE a personality cult.
Besides that the modern GOPers and faux-independents just LOVE a personality cult.
37
#33, it's not clear that Rand and Greenspan "broke." I've come across different articles on their relationship -- not of which I can quote -- however my impression was that they were still friendly despite their differences. If she did "break" with Greenspan, may I ask what your source is? Did Rand herself say that she had broken with him? She usually did with everyone else.
38
34 says:
"Dearest, listen to Catalina: The great depression happened because of lack of "control and regulation".
Um, thanks. Now all those economists who spent their lives trying to understand the causes of the Depression can simply find your very confident post and end their search. (Hey, Milton Friedman, too bad you died before this internet post corrected and refuted your ideas about monetary policy causes of the Depression!)
"We put in regulation, and things worked good for forty years or so. Then we started loosening the rules, based on some very dumb concepts, including those of Miss Rand, and everything went to hell."
Homework assignment: (1) Chart inflation-adjusted GDP for the years since the Depression. (2) Note how very, very large it is now, still, as compared to any prior point on your newly-created chart. (3) Come back and explain your position using that chart. Hint, you are dead-ass wrong. Or, as Stewey might say, "That is your definition of 'hell'? Really? Hmm? Is it? Really? Hell? Right now? Hell?"
"That's all there is to it, really."
LOL
"Greed is not good, but it's human. We're never going to get rid of it, so we might as well embrace it and try to control it."
And now we get to where you really come from: "control". Thanks for being so clear about it.
I'm not really into Rand--she was not enough of an empircist for my taste. But at least she understood the debate. You don't and that seems to stem from not doing the reading, to be perfectly frank. I know this because reading Ayn Rand and then using that as a basis for opinining about economics is like reading Grimm's Fairy Tales and then giving us your thoughts about advances in psychology.
More...
"Dearest, listen to Catalina: The great depression happened because of lack of "control and regulation".
Um, thanks. Now all those economists who spent their lives trying to understand the causes of the Depression can simply find your very confident post and end their search. (Hey, Milton Friedman, too bad you died before this internet post corrected and refuted your ideas about monetary policy causes of the Depression!)
"We put in regulation, and things worked good for forty years or so. Then we started loosening the rules, based on some very dumb concepts, including those of Miss Rand, and everything went to hell."
Homework assignment: (1) Chart inflation-adjusted GDP for the years since the Depression. (2) Note how very, very large it is now, still, as compared to any prior point on your newly-created chart. (3) Come back and explain your position using that chart. Hint, you are dead-ass wrong. Or, as Stewey might say, "That is your definition of 'hell'? Really? Hmm? Is it? Really? Hell? Right now? Hell?"
"That's all there is to it, really."
LOL
"Greed is not good, but it's human. We're never going to get rid of it, so we might as well embrace it and try to control it."
And now we get to where you really come from: "control". Thanks for being so clear about it.
I'm not really into Rand--she was not enough of an empircist for my taste. But at least she understood the debate. You don't and that seems to stem from not doing the reading, to be perfectly frank. I know this because reading Ayn Rand and then using that as a basis for opinining about economics is like reading Grimm's Fairy Tales and then giving us your thoughts about advances in psychology.
39
@37:
One thing you can be sure of is that if she shunned someone in public, she shunned them in private as well. She had a very absolutist, black-and-white view of the world: individuals were either perfect (i.e. agreed with her) or evil (i.e. disagreed with her).
Every time I read anything by or about her, I'm very heavily reminded of obsessive-compulsive personality disorde… (distinct from the more-common OCD), which can be summarized as "a nitpicky perfectionist who demands the same from everyone else in the world".
One thing you can be sure of is that if she shunned someone in public, she shunned them in private as well. She had a very absolutist, black-and-white view of the world: individuals were either perfect (i.e. agreed with her) or evil (i.e. disagreed with her).
Every time I read anything by or about her, I'm very heavily reminded of obsessive-compulsive personality disorde… (distinct from the more-common OCD), which can be summarized as "a nitpicky perfectionist who demands the same from everyone else in the world".
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