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News & ArtsFriday, October 9, 2009
Sex / Film / The Ladies Titties! Titties! Titties!
Posted by Lindy West on Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:48 PM
- Cute! It thinks it's people!
This week I wrote about Tucker Max.
In the comments on my Tucker Max column, commenter Rotten666 writes:
Wrong about the Hooters girls, right about Tucker Max. The lesson here Lindy is that is that women can choose to be sex objects if the want to, and shouldn't be ridiculed by other women. That is what feminism is all about. Tucker max is a flaming misogynist scumbag who I would gladly beat into pulp if I were ever given the chance. The boy is a flat out woman hater, who sells hatred to other like minded haters. If you read his shit and think it is funny, kindly do the world a favor and kill yourself.
I'm sorry if Rotten666, like plenty of people, can only identify misogyny when it's in the form of the world's most blatantly sexist douchebag literally punching a woman in her vagina, but that doesn't mean subtler versions don't exist. Believe me, I agree with you that women should be able to choose to be objectified if they want to. I'm a woman; I'm part of that sexual dialogue. Being objectified can be awesome. The issue at Hooters is that sexism in our society is so pervasive, and women have internalized it so completely, that they think it's empowering to work, almost naked, underneath a sign that reads "CAUTION: BLONDES THINKING." Hooters is for men who want carte blanche to treat women like brainless pieces of shit. I have no idea whether those women are happy working at Hooters, whether they like it or don't, whether they're exploiting it or it's exploiting them. I could give a shit, honestly. My point is that the aspect of our culture that Hooters represents is as regressive and damaging as Tucker Max. Hooters is basically Tucker Max: The Restaurant. Obviously I don't think Hooters should be illegal, or anything batshit insane like that, but I do think that conceiving of women as brainless, fried-chicken-laden sex dolls (seriously, read the Hooters magazine) should be shameful. Fuck that. Wipe out that element, just be a shitty restaurant with scantily clad waitresses, and I'm fine with it.
2
Good point. One woman's choice to depict her gender in a certain light doesn't just affect her, unfortunately.
4
I think there is some confusion on the matter of sexual objectification. So if I may -
Spot the differences between:
Saying "Treat me like a whore" to your lover
and
Being treated like a whore in your job?
Answer: - Both are sexual objectification. In the first scenario you are choosing the person and doing it because it's sexy and fun.
In the second scenario, you might have chosen the job, but you aren't getting to pick who treats you that way.
A work environment where you are objectified and treated like an idiot every day doesn't seem very sexy or fun to most people. You are perfectly welcome to think that - and still be a feminist.
And - even though the women may have CHOSEN to have this job may even feel HAPPY or SEXY flirting with customers - they're not "empowered" because they have such limited choice in who they are interacting with.
Empowerment comes from having control over your environment/circumstances... not just your emotions/reactions.
(um, that is all)
Spot the differences between:
Saying "Treat me like a whore" to your lover
and
Being treated like a whore in your job?
Answer: - Both are sexual objectification. In the first scenario you are choosing the person and doing it because it's sexy and fun.
In the second scenario, you might have chosen the job, but you aren't getting to pick who treats you that way.
A work environment where you are objectified and treated like an idiot every day doesn't seem very sexy or fun to most people. You are perfectly welcome to think that - and still be a feminist.
And - even though the women may have CHOSEN to have this job may even feel HAPPY or SEXY flirting with customers - they're not "empowered" because they have such limited choice in who they are interacting with.
Empowerment comes from having control over your environment/circumstances... not just your emotions/reactions.
(um, that is all)
5
havintg charles endless post boob shots all the time is okay because he's a hipster, and he uses big words. talking about gay sex is okay because, well, stranger is kinda gay. but for these men going to hooters to like what they like, or for the women choosing to work at hooters OHMYGOD THAT'S NOT RIGHT YUCK YUCK YUCK!
Kinda prudish & superior ain't it?
Kinda prudish & superior ain't it?
6
Lindy,
What about all those poor women in the back pages of the Stranger? Don't you profit off their objectification?
What about all those poor women in the back pages of the Stranger? Don't you profit off their objectification?
8
I agree with you 5.
The headline of the Stranger backpages should read "Just like Hooters. Only more degrading."
The headline of the Stranger backpages should read "Just like Hooters. Only more degrading."
9
right...BUT the women use their sexuality to make $$$ at places like Hooters and they choose to work there so one could argue that they are using a form of ultimate feminism...like sex workers, strippers etc...taking money from horny guys by using what they've got
10
And just so we're clear Hooters/Tucker Max: bad, Hump! 5/Sands Show Girls/Little Darlings (featuring a Miss Tight End Contest!)/Babes Toyland/Lust Lab/Pro Sex Workers: Good.
And Why is that Lindy? Because they line your companies pockets with cash. So unless you write the same article about the companies advertising in your paper, I will have to call bullshit. Because those strip clubs may as well be called, "Tucker Max: the titty bar" and the pornography sold at Babeland, "Tucker Max: Fucks a girl". And so on and so on.
And Why is that Lindy? Because they line your companies pockets with cash. So unless you write the same article about the companies advertising in your paper, I will have to call bullshit. Because those strip clubs may as well be called, "Tucker Max: the titty bar" and the pornography sold at Babeland, "Tucker Max: Fucks a girl". And so on and so on.
11
And technically the phrase, "caution: blondes thinking" isn't referring to women, it's referring to blondes thus making your point even more retarded. Which, frankly, was kind of hard to do.
12
Look at the picture with the post and reread "I do think that conceiving of women as brainless, fried-chicken-laden sex dolls (seriously, read the Hooters magazine) should be shameful. Fuck that. Wipe out that element, just be a shitty restaurant with scantily clad waitresses, and I'm fine with it."
The problem here isn't the waitresses, in and of themselves.
The problem here isn't the waitresses, in and of themselves.
13
So you can make fun of everything under the sun, and it's fun, because you're just being funny, but when something is at your expense, like fat-girl jokes, or something makes you feel insecure, like big-boobed blonders, it's all evil misogyny?
14
@11,
By adding an "e" to "blond" you're implicitly referring to blonde women, dumbass.
@10,
I also fail to see why all those things aren't good or at least neutral. None of those things implicitly or explicitly state that women are stupid.
By adding an "e" to "blond" you're implicitly referring to blonde women, dumbass.
@10,
I also fail to see why all those things aren't good or at least neutral. None of those things implicitly or explicitly state that women are stupid.
16
Quick, Lindy, that's your cue.
Pop in with your usual "I HAZ NO CLUE WHAT YOU GUYZ R TALKIN BOUT!"
In your defense, the "IS THIS SEXIST?!?!" schtick is a welcome change from your usual "IS THIS RACIST??!?!" ramblings.
Pop in with your usual "I HAZ NO CLUE WHAT YOU GUYZ R TALKIN BOUT!"
In your defense, the "IS THIS SEXIST?!?!" schtick is a welcome change from your usual "IS THIS RACIST??!?!" ramblings.
18
Lindy, I totally agree with you.
The Stranger has plenty of sexist writers, and for a paper run by so many gays, you sure do feature a lot of women in their underwear on your covers and in the back pages. But I'm so happy that anyone is even acknowledging that sexism is still a huge issue that deserves as much attention as racism or homophobia. It's not like you, Lindy West, have control over the Stranger's advertising department.
All the sloggers calling your paper out on hypocrisy are funny, considering a post in which the Black Lips singer called another singer a "faggot" had all the sloggers agreeing that this was terribly offensive and homophobic. Yet an actual franchise of a restaurant exists that features derogatory/misogynistic comments about women on their walls and in their magazines, and the overwhelming male slogger response is "Who fucking cares, it's just a restaurant?"
The Stranger has plenty of sexist writers, and for a paper run by so many gays, you sure do feature a lot of women in their underwear on your covers and in the back pages. But I'm so happy that anyone is even acknowledging that sexism is still a huge issue that deserves as much attention as racism or homophobia. It's not like you, Lindy West, have control over the Stranger's advertising department.
All the sloggers calling your paper out on hypocrisy are funny, considering a post in which the Black Lips singer called another singer a "faggot" had all the sloggers agreeing that this was terribly offensive and homophobic. Yet an actual franchise of a restaurant exists that features derogatory/misogynistic comments about women on their walls and in their magazines, and the overwhelming male slogger response is "Who fucking cares, it's just a restaurant?"
19
@6-11, isn't it fairly uncommon for a writer at a newspaper to also be its advertising director?
Also it seems pretty disingenuous to conflate "Lindy West is against the existence of Hooters" with "Lindy West wants the waitresses at Hooters to die in a painful way (because she herself is soooo fat)"
Also it seems pretty disingenuous to conflate "Lindy West is against the existence of Hooters" with "Lindy West wants the waitresses at Hooters to die in a painful way (because she herself is soooo fat)"
20
@ 4..Those women..as well as MANY stippers, escorts and other sex-workers DO have control of their circumstances/situations/ lives.... and random guys wallets...YAY! for them! It is easy for women who lack the confidence/ comfort with their own sexuality to scrutinize women who use theirs to get ahead.
Get over it..If it's not your thing...don't work there or visit... but don't bash women who opt to make money from their boobies...or assume that you are somehow above them.
Get over it..If it's not your thing...don't work there or visit... but don't bash women who opt to make money from their boobies...or assume that you are somehow above them.
21
@19 It's called reading between the lines.
Either that or hyperbole for the sake of comedy. One of the two, or maybe both. ;)
Either that or hyperbole for the sake of comedy. One of the two, or maybe both. ;)
22
Rotten666 has a point - I know most women working at Hooters had turned down free rides through Med School for that glorious chance to have a fat white asshole that's never had sex for more than 40 seconds in his life could drool all over her face.
Obviously they're choosing it, because that's what the American workplace is all about: choice for employees. After all, you get to choose between prostitution, stripping or Hooters! You lucky fuck!
Obviously they're choosing it, because that's what the American workplace is all about: choice for employees. After all, you get to choose between prostitution, stripping or Hooters! You lucky fuck!
23
Actually, whatsit, I did read all of 7's very long post, because it was quite interesting (and fucked up). A short quote and a link probably would've been better, but I guess links don't work from anon posters.
24
@22 People always have choices. 12 years ago my wife decided to drop out of college, and strip. She was young dumb, and had a good time. Then she grew up and chose to leave that line of work.
The only way it could be argued that hooter's girls, strippers and prostitutes are forced to work in those lines of work, would be to bring addiction into the equation, and at some point that to is/was a choice as well.
The only way it could be argued that hooter's girls, strippers and prostitutes are forced to work in those lines of work, would be to bring addiction into the equation, and at some point that to is/was a choice as well.
26
@22 I know a woman who did sex work to put herself through Vet school..well that and she was a Budweiser Events Girl...Smokin Hot..made over 100 grand a year and now she's a Smokin hot local vet.
27
I think Lindy's point in this post is that she doesn't so much have a problem with women using their sexuality to make a living. But she does have a problem with treating women like brainless idiots. It's the combination of the sexualization and the treating of these women as if they haven't a thought in their heads -- their sole purpose is to have boobs and serve you beer. I suspect it's the "Caution: Blondes Thinking" sign that is what has really been bugging Lindy about her visit to Hooters.
I tend to agree -- it's not so much the fact that the women are scantily clad and flirting for tips, but the fact that there's this "math is hard; oh silly me, I'm just a girl" thing that goes along with it (at least, it seems to, at Hooters). That is the part that's damaging, I think. And, it's sort of insidious, because Hooters is like "real life." It's not a strip club or a brothel, it's a place where you'd go for someone's birthday or to watch a football game. It's "normal", and yet the women are sexualized "dumb blonds."
I tend to agree -- it's not so much the fact that the women are scantily clad and flirting for tips, but the fact that there's this "math is hard; oh silly me, I'm just a girl" thing that goes along with it (at least, it seems to, at Hooters). That is the part that's damaging, I think. And, it's sort of insidious, because Hooters is like "real life." It's not a strip club or a brothel, it's a place where you'd go for someone's birthday or to watch a football game. It's "normal", and yet the women are sexualized "dumb blonds."
28
@27 - I think you are spot on, except I think it was the magazine that bothered her the most. I'd love to see one...but that would require me to enter a Hooters. No thanks.
30
After a transaction at Hooters, the woman in the tacky shorts and nylons has more money than she had before, and the horny misogynist has less money than he had before, plus he's had to eat some pretty nasty deep fried crap. Which one is being exploited the most by the Hooters corporation?
31
Talk about exploitation. If the headline reads "Titties! Titties! Titties!", there better be some goddamn titties!
32
Did you guys know that Lindy is fat?
Take that in to context of her disdain for women who are able to wield their sexuality for gain.
Hey, Lindy wields her sense of humor for gain. Funny fat girl!
Take that in to context of her disdain for women who are able to wield their sexuality for gain.
Hey, Lindy wields her sense of humor for gain. Funny fat girl!
33
@32: Right. She's just jealous. Secretly Lindy wants to be wearing the tacky orange shorts and nylons, serving hot wings to leotarded troglodytes and being treated like she's a moron. Yeah, I can see that.
34
I'm not a fan of Hooters, but the waitresses there actually wear more clothing than a typical Seattle woman wears on a warm day. There's no cleavage, no anything else, and their legs are encased in not-so-attractive orange nylons. Frankly, a trip to Hooters is less arousing than walking through Nordstrom. And their hot wings aren't that great.
35
Lindy, you are awesome.
And I could argue with the haters on this thread but I'd just end up sounding overly-academic. The long and short of it is everyone at a Hooter's is being exploited. The audience of mostly men are given a plastic-and-silicon distortion of sex and some alright food and the inauthentic no-place feel of a chain restaurant. The worker is given an adequate wage, especially when she compares it to the reduced wage penalty she suffers for being female. The corporation gets a profitable, replicable business model that allows them to siphon the soul off a community. The transaction is tipped so that the balance seems fair to all parties, but is in fact weighted towards the corporation. Civil rights are class struggles.
That, or I should go to sleep.
And I could argue with the haters on this thread but I'd just end up sounding overly-academic. The long and short of it is everyone at a Hooter's is being exploited. The audience of mostly men are given a plastic-and-silicon distortion of sex and some alright food and the inauthentic no-place feel of a chain restaurant. The worker is given an adequate wage, especially when she compares it to the reduced wage penalty she suffers for being female. The corporation gets a profitable, replicable business model that allows them to siphon the soul off a community. The transaction is tipped so that the balance seems fair to all parties, but is in fact weighted towards the corporation. Civil rights are class struggles.
That, or I should go to sleep.
36
You know, Hooters is exploitation of everyone involved. The thing is, though...it's opt-in exploitation. I'm a lifetime waitress and nobody has ever forced me to work for Hooters. (No, I get paid far better than that serving far nicer people at a high-end joint who tip like they're redistributing wealth, and the restaurant I work for has close to no douchebags in the customer base. Win-win-win.) All labor is thus exploitation, and though I see your point about Hooters, I'm not begrudging any woman who chooses to work there. I think most of their clientele is either pathetic or reprehensible, but that's just me. I'm sure there are some nice guys who go to Hooters. On the bright side, the waitresses can at least tell the inappropriate folks what-for. I used to work for a restaurant where you really had no recourse if someone pinched your ass. It sucked.
And, uh, Keyboard Gat, i'm kinda "chunky," too. Hate to say it, but there are guys (and fortunately for me, girls) out there who like seeing curvy womenz shake it, and having actually met Lindy, I can tell you she's cuter than I am, and I'm pretty popular with the ladies. She doesn't need to be jealous of a Hooters Gal, nor does any part of her review sound that way.
Now, if only Hooters wings didn't *suck*...
And, uh, Keyboard Gat, i'm kinda "chunky," too. Hate to say it, but there are guys (and fortunately for me, girls) out there who like seeing curvy womenz shake it, and having actually met Lindy, I can tell you she's cuter than I am, and I'm pretty popular with the ladies. She doesn't need to be jealous of a Hooters Gal, nor does any part of her review sound that way.
Now, if only Hooters wings didn't *suck*...
39
THe problem with Hooters is everyone is there so so fucking lower and working class......seriously, 10th generation trailer trash, women included.
40
THat's why I'd never want a Hooters in Wallingford...it would undermine property values, a true sign that low class people are moving in.
41
Every conversation about misogyny becomes about whether or not women deserve misogyny. We can't have a conversation that focuses on Hooters managers, or johns, or rapists, at all.
43
No one deserves misogyny any more than they deserve racial hatred or hatred against any ethnic, religious or sexual minority.
On the other hand, hatred is often justified. This isn't to say a wrongdoing was involved.
Cattle ranchers have an old conflict with sheep ranchers since the latter livestock would eat grass to the root, and tear up the range. Frequently enough, it became a warring offense that would create feuds rife with murder between neighboring families.
This isn't to say sheep are evil (or that cows are good) but people have lots of reasons to not like each other, even if it's just because the appearance of differently shaded folks makes them anxious.
My own youthful fear of women was due to the conflict between confusion and attraction; I was fed a lot of false information as a kid, and expected girls to be completely alien to boys. I would be relieved in my adulthood to learn I was wrong. In fact, we're amazingly alike.
I'm sure plenty of other men fail to get the memo.
On the other hand, hatred is often justified. This isn't to say a wrongdoing was involved.
Cattle ranchers have an old conflict with sheep ranchers since the latter livestock would eat grass to the root, and tear up the range. Frequently enough, it became a warring offense that would create feuds rife with murder between neighboring families.
This isn't to say sheep are evil (or that cows are good) but people have lots of reasons to not like each other, even if it's just because the appearance of differently shaded folks makes them anxious.
My own youthful fear of women was due to the conflict between confusion and attraction; I was fed a lot of false information as a kid, and expected girls to be completely alien to boys. I would be relieved in my adulthood to learn I was wrong. In fact, we're amazingly alike.
I'm sure plenty of other men fail to get the memo.
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