Slog
News & ArtsMonday, October 5, 2009
Savage Love Savage Love Letter of the Day
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 2:40 PM
Dan! I love you. I've been reading you since the early '90s and my sex life has greatly benefitted from your advice—but you got something very wrong in your response to DREW this week. Very wrong. So wrong it actually scares me. In your response you said: "Gay guys have straight sex in high school like straight guys have gay sex in prison: under duress."Men are often raped in prison, so "duress" is a bit of an understatement. I'd even go so far as to say it's an outright dismissal of the violence of these rapes, or the trauma one might endure. I would also like to point out that even if both inmates are gay or interested in gay sex, it doesn't automatically make that sex consensual. Are there "straight" guys who are open to this new opportunity because they are in jail? Probably. But no one desires rape. Even if they have something like a "rape fantasy," it's not really about rape, it's about domination. Rape is rape. It is, by definition, not consensual.
In-the-closet gay boys who have sex with girls in high school often initiate sex with their straight girlfriend so the girlfriend doesn’t suspect anything. This is not duress, or at least not the way you implied it was (it's social, not personal). And it's not rape, though I'm sure sometimes the straight girl, not understanding why this boy who claims to be her boyfriend finds her so physically repulsive that he doesn't want to touch her body, might put on some verbal pressure, or even in rare circumstances, manage to rape a boy (though that girl has a problem that has nothing to do with the gay boy and she should be prosecuted accordingly). In-the-closet teenage gay boys (and girls) have a tough road, but let's not dismiss the fact that as they "hide" with a heterosexual beard who hasn't agreed to this role in any honest or real way, they are hurting the beard emotionally in ways that can be lasting.
Back to the topic at hand: try not to confuse the pressure one puts on oneself to be "normal" with the coercive violence and trauma of actual rape. Please. It makes you sound foolish or, worse, like an advocate for prison rape.
Rape Is Not Sex
2
I think this person has seen too many prison movies. I haven't been to prison, but I'm guessing that not all the sex that happens behind bars is rape like RINS believes.
3
@2- I've seen a lot of data, prison rape is very prevalent and real. Sure, there's consensual sex behind bars, but don't blind yourself to the reality. Our prison/justice system turns a blind eye to inter-prisoner brutality.
4
I didn't see anything about prison rape in your response. If straight guys engage in gay sex while in prison because there are no other options and they just need the feeling of flesh on flesh, than I would say that's duress. If a gay person has no other options and just wants flesh on flesh and can stomach straight sex, that's duress. It's not either's first choice but it's not rape. Sounds more like this person doesn't know the difference between duress and rape.
6
I take it nobody watched Mad Men last night.
That was "straight sex" back then. Words didn't exist.
Besides, given all the media images and constant messages on it, it's the odd woman who wouldn't find another woman attractive, so how do you really "know" if it's just that the boys don't do it for you or that you're not straight - could be they're just not meeting your needs but will eventually.
Admittedly, for guys, it's kind of a double bell curve, whereas for women it's more of a sloped curve in terms of sexuality preference continuum, so it really depends.
That was "straight sex" back then. Words didn't exist.
Besides, given all the media images and constant messages on it, it's the odd woman who wouldn't find another woman attractive, so how do you really "know" if it's just that the boys don't do it for you or that you're not straight - could be they're just not meeting your needs but will eventually.
Admittedly, for guys, it's kind of a double bell curve, whereas for women it's more of a sloped curve in terms of sexuality preference continuum, so it really depends.
7
Pretty sure Dan wasn't talking about rape. Maybe he should have gone with pirates? Hm, no too much pillaging. Sailors? Sequestered all male juries? Seminary school? Nuns in the middle ages? Duress doesn't usually mean under threat of violent force, it can mean due to lack of other options. Ex:
"I accepted a pay cut under duress."
"I accepted a pay cut under duress."
8
@7- When you're talking about sex, 'duress' is rape. Look up duress, it doesn't mean what you think it means.
11
Really good point RINS. I laughed at that comparison when Dan made it and thought it was clever. I think the whole point of him making that comparison was to make a point of how horrible it is for gay people to have straight sex when they feel social pressure to. Just like people compare people social injustices with the Holocaust. And inevitably a lot of people get offended for diminishing the severety of the Holocaust.
You've gotta respect Dan for publicising criticism of him in Slog, pointing out his errors and insensitivities. Go Dan!
You've gotta respect Dan for publicising criticism of him in Slog, pointing out his errors and insensitivities. Go Dan!
12
@7 - Duress is defined as being constrained by threat. A high school girl or boy thinking they won't be cool or might be excluded if they don't fuck a member of the opposite sex is under duress, but it in no way constitutes rape. Having someone physically hold you down, drug you, or make violent threats is rape.
13
I think RINS makes an excellent point. I never want to minimize the social pressure gay people suffer, but duress may have not been the best word choice this time.
Main Entry: du·ress
Pronunciation: \du̇-ˈres also dyu̇-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English duresse, from Anglo-French duresce hardness, severity, from Latin duritia, from durus
Date: 15th century
1 : forcible restraint or restriction
2 : compulsion by threat; specifically : unlawful constraint
Main Entry: du·ress
Pronunciation: \du̇-ˈres also dyu̇-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English duresse, from Anglo-French duresce hardness, severity, from Latin duritia, from durus
Date: 15th century
1 : forcible restraint or restriction
2 : compulsion by threat; specifically : unlawful constraint
14
I know Dan was being flip but prison rape is a very serious issue that gets very little attention. http://www.spr.org/
16
Kudos to Dan for publishing this letter. Dan knows that his comment was excessively insensitive. It was a small, correctable mistake in comparison to the overall value of the column.
17
Can we all pretend for a minute that Dan wasn't necessarily talking about rape? Like, yeah, ok, definitely should have clarified, but that's NOT the only sex that happens in prisons, and if we're talking about consensual homo-sex because you're spending years at a time without the company of females, the comparison becomes fairly apt.
18
Are you people being deliberately obtuse? Dan's comment was not a "mistake". It was an example of a rhetorical device called hyperbole. H-Y-P-E-R-B-O-L-E. No sane, reasonable person would take his remark as DIRECTLY equating male/male prison sex (coereced or not) with queer/straight sex in High School What? An over-the-top, exaggeration from Dan Savage? What a surprise! Get a grip, people.
19
I recommend, next time you make this comment, replacing "prison" with "the navy". Hearty laughs all around!
20
As one of few gay males never having had sex with a female, I really can't say, one way or the other.
25
I think the totally serious point that Dan was trying to make, RINS, is that closet gay boys in high school are brutally raped by society.
Either that, or he was making a joke. ;)
Either that, or he was making a joke. ;)
27
That's kind of an overreaction on the part of the RINS. I didn't take the "under duress" statement you made to be 100% serious or intended to be accurate if thought about completely seriously and exploring all the details. People take things waaay too literally sometimes and miss the subtle nuances in language.
29
Prison rape is well-worth educating yourself, about number 2. I found this study to be rather eye-opening: http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2001/p…
Apparently, openly gay prisoners are more at risk for prison-rape, as well.
Apparently, openly gay prisoners are more at risk for prison-rape, as well.
32
Re: Madonna's comment: "how horrible it is for gay people to have straight sex when they feel social pressure to". It's way more horrible to be the straight person being used as a social prop in these situations. It is demeaning and confusing to have a relationship with someone who couldn't possibly be attracted to you, but keeps pretending that they are.
Closeted gay men who date women are jerks--culturally motivated in their jerkiness, but jerks nonetheless.
Closeted gay men who date women are jerks--culturally motivated in their jerkiness, but jerks nonetheless.
34
@ 32. Very important point, which I overlooked. And I apologise. We often give a lot more sympathy to the closet cases and forget about the women or men they use to seem straight. It's really disgraceful. I met a guy once, who was gay, and he told me how he used to date women when he was in the closet, and how he also used be a woman hater. I don't know if he saw the parallels. He then said 'but I realised I wasn't being fair to myself!" I couldn't believe his absolute disregard for the women he used.
35
Duress = Compulsion to do something because of a threat.
That threat can be many things, and what _I_ assumed Dan was talking about was the obvious social pressures that we all deal with being that age in high school, to fit in and be normal against the threat of being ostracized, even if you're not so sure you are normal because you think about guys when you masturbate. So many gay guys in high school, under the societal and self imposed pressure, end up fucking straight girls. In truth, whether they are ready to acknowledge it yet or not at this age, they'd much rather be fucking guys. Ipso facto, this is not ideal. Much like straight guys who voluntarily fuck each other in while in prison who would clearly rather be fucking women if it weren't for the complete lack of that option, which I would venture, is quite comparable in it's LESS THAN IDEAL nature.
I don't know, I could very well be wrong in my interpretation, I just find it difficulty to believe Dan would be so cleanly dismissive of rape as some are suggesting.
That threat can be many things, and what _I_ assumed Dan was talking about was the obvious social pressures that we all deal with being that age in high school, to fit in and be normal against the threat of being ostracized, even if you're not so sure you are normal because you think about guys when you masturbate. So many gay guys in high school, under the societal and self imposed pressure, end up fucking straight girls. In truth, whether they are ready to acknowledge it yet or not at this age, they'd much rather be fucking guys. Ipso facto, this is not ideal. Much like straight guys who voluntarily fuck each other in while in prison who would clearly rather be fucking women if it weren't for the complete lack of that option, which I would venture, is quite comparable in it's LESS THAN IDEAL nature.
I don't know, I could very well be wrong in my interpretation, I just find it difficulty to believe Dan would be so cleanly dismissive of rape as some are suggesting.
36
#35.
Having read how Dan treats victims of rape (and rape in general) in his column, I trust that this was just clumsy phrasing on his part.
I just find it difficulty to believe Dan would be so cleanly dismissive of rape as some are suggesting.
Having read how Dan treats victims of rape (and rape in general) in his column, I trust that this was just clumsy phrasing on his part.
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