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News & ArtsFriday, October 2, 2009
Savage Love Savage Love Letter of the Day
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 3:52 PM
I seldom write to you, Dan, because I usually agree with your advice. But in the case of Fucked In Madison, I think you could have done better. This is one of those rare situations where a hetero male's perspective is going to be so different from a gay male's perspective that you're not going to see the whole picture. Allow me to explain. See there's a code of conduct among heterosexual men. It's rarely spoken of and it doesn't have a name, but I promise you that we all know of it. And here's how it goes:You do not fuck a friend's woman. You do not even fuck his ex without his express permission. And if you ask for permission and he says no, then you accept no for an answer and move on with your life.
Doesn't matter that "the lady" (and that is a very effected way to refer to her) is an autonomous being, the code is what it is. A man who does what FIM did is regarded as the lowest of the low by all his friends. He's the scum of the Earth to them. If word of it gets out, then he is guaranteed a beating, not only by "the lady"'s bf, but by all their mutual male friends.
What I would add to what you told him is the following: FIM and "the lady" have to wait at least 6 months after she dumps the bf before FIM can even ask the woman's ex-bf for his okay to date her. Maybe waiting till the springtime to do it is best, as he'll get over it faster then. And they have to stop behaving in ways that arrouse suspicion until then, even if it means avoiding each other!
Man Earns A Thrashing
Interesting code of conduct you've got there, MEAT, and like cunnilingus, golf, and Jon & Kate, it makes me glad I'm gay. But I still think—hobbled as I am with my big, fat gay perspective and all—that this woman is not her boyfriend's property. And since she's not her boyfriend's property, FIM is not required to get her soon-to-be-ex-boyfriend's permission to date her. I don't think she's her boyfriend's property now, MEAT, so I certainly don't think she's somehow her boyfriend's property six months after she ends their relationship. FIM could give the guy a heads-up as a courtesy, I suppose, but it would be optional.
1
My favorite part is, ...then he is guaranteed a beating, not only by "the lady"'s bf, but by all their mutual male friends
Yessir, many's a time I've given "beatings" to male friends for sleeping with some other mutual male friend's woman without permission (and a 6-month buffer, of course.)
Yessir, many's a time I've given "beatings" to male friends for sleeping with some other mutual male friend's woman without permission (and a 6-month buffer, of course.)
2
He is right that this hetero man-code exists. I feel the influence too but I do my best not to participate. I have seen friends sever relationships over this kind of thing and I make sure I do not do the same to others. With that said I have personally had guys freak out on me for dating or hooking up with an ex. They really do believe it is an affront to their property just like if you stole their car stereo.
3
Let's not forget that he is talking about one kind of hetero male, the kind that's an asshole who uses "beatings" to enforce nebulous notions of honor.
4
You're not getting it Dan.
It's not rooted in a property concept it's rooted in a contract concept among the two hetero guys.
The contract is their mutual implied agreement to be friends; which includes not emotionally distressing the buddy who's the ex of the chick by hitting on her.
It's merely a mutual noncompete agreement.
IT's all part of the larger agreement among heteros to always, always facilitate your buddy's romantic endeavors by introducing him to girls you are not pursuing (say because you already have a g.f.) or are barred from pursuing (your sister!) and acting as general wingman (but not to your own detrimnet). If your friends hit on your g.f. or your ex g.f. without permission, it means you can't trust them to be frieds with your g.f., whom they should be sort of treating as their own sister.
And btw isn't great that there is a culture of complex moral codes and btw what hetero guys just naturally think and feel is as valid as what hetero girls just naturally think and feel, genders being equal.
It's not rooted in a property concept it's rooted in a contract concept among the two hetero guys.
The contract is their mutual implied agreement to be friends; which includes not emotionally distressing the buddy who's the ex of the chick by hitting on her.
It's merely a mutual noncompete agreement.
IT's all part of the larger agreement among heteros to always, always facilitate your buddy's romantic endeavors by introducing him to girls you are not pursuing (say because you already have a g.f.) or are barred from pursuing (your sister!) and acting as general wingman (but not to your own detrimnet). If your friends hit on your g.f. or your ex g.f. without permission, it means you can't trust them to be frieds with your g.f., whom they should be sort of treating as their own sister.
And btw isn't great that there is a culture of complex moral codes and btw what hetero guys just naturally think and feel is as valid as what hetero girls just naturally think and feel, genders being equal.
5
It does have a name, it's called "Bros before hos" gotta keep it simple for us neanderthals.
No affronts, no implied layers of claiming another human being. You don't mess with a friend's significant other. If you do, you are an ass.
No affronts, no implied layers of claiming another human being. You don't mess with a friend's significant other. If you do, you are an ass.
6
You're right, "bros before hos" has NO implications whatsoever about claiming another human being.
Suuuuure.
Suuuuure.
7
As a hetero male, I totally agree with you, Dan. This guy is a tool. Asking out of courtesy, and to avoid future awkwardness, is all fine, but like you said, optional. Guy's who would give you a "beating" because you didn't treat their ex like an object are the ones who are the "lowest of the low," and any friend like that isn't much of a friend at all. Does this code exist? Maybe among tools like him, but among rational people, it's only there to give a heads-up that there might be some awkwardness coming up.
8
I can't condone the "beatings" part, but I certainly would have to end a relationship with a friend that dated my Ex. Jus' not cool...
9
@4 Dan will never "get" anything. He is set in his ways, ignores any relevant information, and just gives you his "expert" conclusions. Hey Dan! Quit hiding behind the, "I'm a faggot, therefore I'm persecuted for everything" schtick to deflect legit criticism about your complete and total inadequacy. I understand you are old, aging, and have the intellectual capacity of Glenn Beck, but don't start hating on straight people just because "society" doesn't love you. Get a fucking grip, you uneducated lunatic.
10
Wait a sec Dan.
I'm a straight guy and I dislike golf and Jon & Kate. Does that mean I'm secretly 2/3 gay?
Also, while there may be a grain of truth in the "hetero guy code of conduct" thing, beatings is definitely not part of it in my experience. None of my straight male friends are down with violence like that. (The dykes on the other hand ... )
I'm a straight guy and I dislike golf and Jon & Kate. Does that mean I'm secretly 2/3 gay?
Also, while there may be a grain of truth in the "hetero guy code of conduct" thing, beatings is definitely not part of it in my experience. None of my straight male friends are down with violence like that. (The dykes on the other hand ... )
11
I totally agree with you, Dan. And this whole hetero-guy "secret unspoken rule" thing seems pretty fucking creepy and sexist anyway. Your buddy's already pissed on that territory, so you gotta back off, man - it's the silent cock code, didn't you know? Mark your territory elsewhere. What are you, an ape, MEAT? This chick is not a damsel in distress waiting in the wings for the two of you meatheads to duke it out as to who's got dibs and when. If she's up for fucking the friend, she will. Like most hetero sex - it's up to HER anyway. If she's smart though, she'll dump both of your stupid asses and find a guy who isn't such a cretin.
P.S. Golf isn't straight, it's white.
P.S. Golf isn't straight, it's white.
12
see? there you have it; if Roman Polanski had just stuck to the damn code, and not drugged and raped his Bros' Ho....
sheesh.
sheesh.
14
It does have a name, it's called "Bros before hos," gotta keep it simple for us neanderthals.
No affronts, no implied layers of claiming another human being. You don't mess with a bro's significant other. If you do, you are an ass, if she does, she is a scrotum.
No affronts, no implied layers of claiming another human being. You don't mess with a bro's significant other. If you do, you are an ass, if she does, she is a scrotum.
15
Dan, the code is not about the relationship between the guy and the ex-gf. It's about the relationship between the two guys.
Sure, you can date your friend's ex. And she can date whomever see wants. But the guy forfeits the other guy's friendship. Ain't cool.
I'm guessing the same is true among het-women.
Sure, you can date your friend's ex. And she can date whomever see wants. But the guy forfeits the other guy's friendship. Ain't cool.
I'm guessing the same is true among het-women.
16
As I het guy, I musta missed the memo. If any of my male friends got together with an ex of mine, they'd have my blessing. Similarly, if I took an interest in one of their exes, I wouldn't feel the need to get "approval." "Bros before hos" is something a 12-year-old would say.
18
It depends on who dumps whom. Dating your friend's ex is o.k., albeit awkward, if he dumps her. No "permission" necessary. If she dumps him, and you date her then you have probably just sacrificed the friendship. I don't think it's really a guy thing--any het gals care to apply this thought experiment towards their friends and boyfriends?
19
Overall I agree with Dan, but the code is between the two guys and respecting each others' feelings: bros before hos. If the guy is torn up and upset and his heart was stomped on, his BFF shouldn't WANT to date the woman who was the source of his friends pain really.
Now if they just casually dated a time or two, there's no real reason to have "rules" of 6 months. But if your best friend is in pain and stinging from a break-up it is kind of tacky to immediately start dating the woman he has all these mixed emotions and heartache about.
Plus, doesn't it look tacky to run around scraping up other peoples' leftovers?
Now if they just casually dated a time or two, there's no real reason to have "rules" of 6 months. But if your best friend is in pain and stinging from a break-up it is kind of tacky to immediately start dating the woman he has all these mixed emotions and heartache about.
Plus, doesn't it look tacky to run around scraping up other peoples' leftovers?
20
Fuck you and your macho "code," MEAT. What you have isn't honor or anything like it, it's just an aggressive, loudmouthed-frat-boy misunderstanding of what the rest of us consider to be common courtesy and sensitivity. Using it as an excuse to threaten and swagger is pathetic.
Sure, you don't date your friend's ex anytime soon after they break up, or if you do you either ask permission or keep it quiet. That's Not Being a Dick 101. But beatings? Absolute pronouncements about what friends and exes may or may not do? Bullshit. Grow up.
Sure, you don't date your friend's ex anytime soon after they break up, or if you do you either ask permission or keep it quiet. That's Not Being a Dick 101. But beatings? Absolute pronouncements about what friends and exes may or may not do? Bullshit. Grow up.
21
unfortunately, for a lot of dudes it IS a property thing. i have always followed the code, but just becasue it seems a bit crass and clearly potentially upsetting to someone i'd call a friend to move on their girl. i don't think beatings are in order, but i would certainly end my friendship if someone pulled something like that on me.
it's also worth mentioning that while such a code most defintiely exists and is given much lip service by all kinds of men, i've found in the past that any chance for most guys to 'get some,' be it from his best friend's girl or a total stranger, results in all codes, rules, laws, guidelines and good sense going out the window...
it's also worth mentioning that while such a code most defintiely exists and is given much lip service by all kinds of men, i've found in the past that any chance for most guys to 'get some,' be it from his best friend's girl or a total stranger, results in all codes, rules, laws, guidelines and good sense going out the window...
23
He's right.
It's not ironclad, but it is there. As we become more mobile in society it's less of a deal, but it still exists.
That said, it also depends on ethnic and regional backgrounds for how strong it is. Try it in some neighborhoods and you'll happen to 'fall' off a bridge - in other places other guys will just happen to 'bump' into you a few times.
And it is just between the two guys. I don't recall anyone ever thinking it was her fault per se. It doesn't really apply to women so far as I can tell.
Admittedly, some guys will say it's ok but still not be ok with it, but that means other guys (mostly) will just tell them to take it outside.
It's not ironclad, but it is there. As we become more mobile in society it's less of a deal, but it still exists.
That said, it also depends on ethnic and regional backgrounds for how strong it is. Try it in some neighborhoods and you'll happen to 'fall' off a bridge - in other places other guys will just happen to 'bump' into you a few times.
And it is just between the two guys. I don't recall anyone ever thinking it was her fault per se. It doesn't really apply to women so far as I can tell.
Admittedly, some guys will say it's ok but still not be ok with it, but that means other guys (mostly) will just tell them to take it outside.
24
"...since she's not her boyfriend's property, FIM is not required to get her soon-to-be-ex-boyfriend's permission to date her..."
makes a whole lot of sense if you are a woman or a gay man. Otherwise, it's just theory. That's not how it works Dan, sorry to tell you.
makes a whole lot of sense if you are a woman or a gay man. Otherwise, it's just theory. That's not how it works Dan, sorry to tell you.
26
Sure, there's a "code," but speaking as a heterosexual male I value female companionship over male friendship any day. Especially if the male "friendship" is so fragile it can't survive this sort of faux-betrayal.
Granted, all of this pre-supposes the males in the group treat females well. If they're a bunch of douchebags, no wonder they don't want their buddies abusing someone they had feelings for.
Granted, all of this pre-supposes the males in the group treat females well. If they're a bunch of douchebags, no wonder they don't want their buddies abusing someone they had feelings for.
27
A beating shouldn't come into play, but I can imagine being hurt if one of my friends started dating an ex-girlfriend I was still hung up over it. I wouldn't get angry at the ex-girlfriend -- she isn't property. I would be pretty upset with my friend, though, because good friends just shouldn't do things that cause you to emotional anguish. I'd be upset that he put himself in the situation to get laid with something that's still sore for me (sort of like how the girl in the original letter put herself in the situation to break up with her boyfriend -- things are pursued, not accidental). But, I mean, once it happened it would kind of hurt but I wouldn't expect things to stop or end just because I'm mad -- but that friendship would probably be over.
Is it totally irrational to expect your friends to avoid dating an ex? There must be a continuum between beating your friends up like a meathead and always pretending that anything is totally cool and once a relationship is over there's no emotion at all allowed.
Is it totally irrational to expect your friends to avoid dating an ex? There must be a continuum between beating your friends up like a meathead and always pretending that anything is totally cool and once a relationship is over there's no emotion at all allowed.
28
Thank god for a gay man's perspective. This is why I value Dan's advice.
And yay to the straight guys who are calling MEAT out. He and his catty female equivalents are exactly what is wrong with straight culture.
And yay to the straight guys who are calling MEAT out. He and his catty female equivalents are exactly what is wrong with straight culture.
32
If I believed every straight guy who claimed to speak for all straight guys, I would never date any of them at all.
33
My feeling on it is that I trust my friends not to undermine a relationship I have going on and I try my best not to undermine theirs. "Bros before Hoes" is a really immature way of describing it but in all fairness you should be able to trust your friends to be around your signifigant other and not have anything happen because each of them respects the relationship with you. If your girlfriend cheats on you or your friend sleeps with your girlfriend while you are still dating it is a pretty big foul on both their parts.
34
Look, a lot of it has to do with the fact that most men don't go around talking about their feelings about stuff. Sleeping with his ex is basically peeing on his feelings.
Which, as you very well know, he hasn't talked about.
And don't tell me girls don't check and make sure it's ok before they date a friend's ex - cause I know they do.
Of course, sluts (male or female) will just do it anyway, but that's who they are.
Which, as you very well know, he hasn't talked about.
And don't tell me girls don't check and make sure it's ok before they date a friend's ex - cause I know they do.
Of course, sluts (male or female) will just do it anyway, but that's who they are.
35
It is, Moag@15. And I'd venture to guess that there exists, somewhere on the planet, gay men who would not look kindly on their friends dating their exes.
But this is only the case if love is involved. It's not about treating someone as property. It's about broken hearts, pain, all that wonderful shit that comes with falling in love. The reason these men and women (gay or straight) expect their friends to have the good taste to stay the fuck away from their exes is because they love them. The "six month" rule is there because that is giving the guy or girl time to get over it.
All of this is only a problem if love is involved. If my spouse left me and my friend began dating him, I'd hate them both. Six months from now? I'd probably still think it's in bad taste. But if they were happy . . . I like to think I'd be a big person about it.
But this is only the case if love is involved. It's not about treating someone as property. It's about broken hearts, pain, all that wonderful shit that comes with falling in love. The reason these men and women (gay or straight) expect their friends to have the good taste to stay the fuck away from their exes is because they love them. The "six month" rule is there because that is giving the guy or girl time to get over it.
All of this is only a problem if love is involved. If my spouse left me and my friend began dating him, I'd hate them both. Six months from now? I'd probably still think it's in bad taste. But if they were happy . . . I like to think I'd be a big person about it.
36
wow. There were 15 responses when I began my post. I'm #35. This blog has a lot of readers who type incredibly fast.
Everything I said in post 35 has probably already been said.
Everything I said in post 35 has probably already been said.
37
She can decide for herself. And men who think they own a woman are usually the one's that kill them. So much for the moral high ground.
39
@28- What exactly is catty about respecting your friend's feelings? My friendship with close girlfriends is not something I'm just going to shit all over to get a chance with their ex. If I'm totally in love with their ex, then I would either have to hope that my friend would be alright with it (and even if they say/think they are, they may not be), or choose between a friend and a boyfriend.
Humans have emotions. We're funny that way.
Humans have emotions. We're funny that way.
40
no prob, @38.
I think if it was a guy friend and he only had a one night stand with someone after some event and I knew he was involved with someone else, then it would be ok, though, provided she wasn't still involved in his life.
I think if it was a guy friend and he only had a one night stand with someone after some event and I knew he was involved with someone else, then it would be ok, though, provided she wasn't still involved in his life.
41
MEAT is a moron, but he's got a point. It rule only applies with serious friends and long term relationships. If its someone you know casually, no harm no foul. I new a guy who pulled this shit, there was no beatdown, but he lost our respect and he wondered why no one called him anymore.
42
Dan has no compunction about cheating on his 'wife' so it stands to reason he wouldn't hesitate to stiff a 'friend'.
If he had any.
If he had any.
44
I'm with Dan 100%. It's her choice who she chooses to sleep with, or fall in love with, or cheat on. She is no man's property now, never was, and never will be. And yes, she SHOULD be free and clear of her previous beau before starting anything new, but if she isn't, it's her choice, not either of her "owner's" choice. Puh-leeze.
46
44
Sarah, dear:
It's not about "her" at all.
It is about the relationship between the male friends.
Sarah, dear:
It's not about "her" at all.
It is about the relationship between the male friends.
49
Dan's right about property rights. The woman in question is a free agent. But I don't think the heterosexual male code is so much about property rights as it is about not shitting on your friends. And by the way, that's a great code for every orientation, eh?
50
This is about the genetic root of male jealousy. Evolution favors men that care whether or not the child they are expending energy in raising is their own. In a less technologically advanced society, it is impossible for men to tell if their children are related to them. A code among men to prevent cheating with 'claimed women' helps straight groups of men work together without suspicion or competition tearing the social group apart. I think these rules are more built around protecting the effectiveness of a tribal hunting group than anything else. It’s basic male instinct that can be easily overcome by culture. In modern America though, any culture not based around male ego and willfull ignorance is considered gay.
51
#44, sure she has every right to date who she wants. But if she ever gave half a shit about her ex, why would she fuck his friend? Only a cold, heartless bitch would do that to anyone she previously cared about.
#49, you said what I said, only better.
#49, you said what I said, only better.
52
Personally, I got repeatedly cockblocked in high school and my first year of college by a controlling ex-boyfriend under THE CODE. Even a year after we broke up, anytime another guy -good friend or acquaintance- expressed interest in me he'd call THE CODE. He was popular and our groups overlapped so almost every guy I met already was his friend or would soon become his friend. And the couple of times that a guy ignored THE CODE and went for me anyway, he caused a big, aggressive, cry-baby drama that usually sent the new guy running. He was a controlling douche and I didn't get another boyfriend in my life until I cut all cords, including mutual male and female friends. So yeah, this CODE BS does involve the idea, unconscious or not, that a woman is "spoken for" property.
53
4 is exactly right.
"The contract is their mutual implied agreement to be friends; which includes not emotionally distressing the buddy who's the ex of the chick by hitting on her."
That's the heart of the issue, not some bullshit argument about property. You can date anyone's ex without asking permission, but that means you are not their friend.
"The contract is their mutual implied agreement to be friends; which includes not emotionally distressing the buddy who's the ex of the chick by hitting on her."
That's the heart of the issue, not some bullshit argument about property. You can date anyone's ex without asking permission, but that means you are not their friend.
54
@52:
First off, I don' think High School romance is what we are a-talking about here, and if your social group is that incestuous that usually is a sure sign of needing a new set o' friends.
Uhh, and did you actually use the term "cockblocked?" Controlling ex-boyfriend is the last of your worries, honey.
First off, I don' think High School romance is what we are a-talking about here, and if your social group is that incestuous that usually is a sure sign of needing a new set o' friends.
Uhh, and did you actually use the term "cockblocked?" Controlling ex-boyfriend is the last of your worries, honey.
55
This 'code' is evasive bullshit for emotionally stunted and incapable boys who can't handle being a little smart or in control of a situation.
My brothers in heterosexuality: man up, grow up, and get over yourselves. These rules are arbitrary, made up! and you hide behind them because you can't deal with a painful reality (read: she likes your friend now, he wants to see where it goes. You can't blame him, after all, you did too! Why deprive them of the opportunity?).
My brothers in heterosexuality: man up, grow up, and get over yourselves. These rules are arbitrary, made up! and you hide behind them because you can't deal with a painful reality (read: she likes your friend now, he wants to see where it goes. You can't blame him, after all, you did too! Why deprive them of the opportunity?).
56
I think this code is about seeing women as property Dan, and I agree with you. It is not just about "the guys friends respecting each other" because it does not just involve the two guys. It also involves the girlfriend, who seems very interested in FIM. Why doesn't her needs come into the equation? Why does she inadvertently need permission from her ex to date a new guy?
On a side note, I just wanted to mention that there is also an unspoken code amongst women as well. It has been well known to me that girls who date a bunch of guys amongst a group of friends, are considered sluts, dirty and diseased. The men in the group start thinking she is trying to break up the group of friends, or that she wants to be passed around. I've known that for a while, and even though I disagree with it and the idea infuriates me, I still followed it when I was young and single, because I was worried about nasty rumours flying around about me. Whenever I broke up with a guy, if any of his friends showed interest, I just broke off all contact because I didn't want to be seen as a slut. I hate that I grudgingly follwed that stupid rule, but when you're young, sometimes silly rumours like that cause so much stress and hurt, it's not even worth it!
On a side note, I just wanted to mention that there is also an unspoken code amongst women as well. It has been well known to me that girls who date a bunch of guys amongst a group of friends, are considered sluts, dirty and diseased. The men in the group start thinking she is trying to break up the group of friends, or that she wants to be passed around. I've known that for a while, and even though I disagree with it and the idea infuriates me, I still followed it when I was young and single, because I was worried about nasty rumours flying around about me. Whenever I broke up with a guy, if any of his friends showed interest, I just broke off all contact because I didn't want to be seen as a slut. I hate that I grudgingly follwed that stupid rule, but when you're young, sometimes silly rumours like that cause so much stress and hurt, it's not even worth it!
57
Whoa judgmental 54.
HS romance. Exactly. He was way controlling to hold onto a HS romance years after it was over. More than most men. I supply him as an extreme example of male possessiveness espousing THE CODE.
Incestuous social group. I lived in a small town growing up and went to a small college nearby my first year. There's a limited dating pool.
And "cockblock" well yes he was blocking the cock that I could have been getting.
Finally, are you a girl? If you're okay with ex-boyfriends influencing your present and future love life, by all means live by THE CODE ho.
HS romance. Exactly. He was way controlling to hold onto a HS romance years after it was over. More than most men. I supply him as an extreme example of male possessiveness espousing THE CODE.
Incestuous social group. I lived in a small town growing up and went to a small college nearby my first year. There's a limited dating pool.
And "cockblock" well yes he was blocking the cock that I could have been getting.
Finally, are you a girl? If you're okay with ex-boyfriends influencing your present and future love life, by all means live by THE CODE ho.
58
@ 47,
"A guy who sleeps with his friend's wife doesn't deserve friends....unless it's a threesome situation, they're all swingers, it's an open relationship, or one of them is into cuckoldry.", I believe you mean. Sex with a married person isn't necessarily adultery or "cheating".
"A guy who sleeps with his friend's wife doesn't deserve friends....unless it's a threesome situation, they're all swingers, it's an open relationship, or one of them is into cuckoldry.", I believe you mean. Sex with a married person isn't necessarily adultery or "cheating".
61
MEAT is absolutely right. He doesn't need old friend's permission in a absolute sense of need - he needs it if he wants to continue being on speaking terms with EX-BF or any of their mutual friends.
62
Dan, you don't get straight men. Women and non-straight men on Slog, you also don't get straight men.
I know it's fun to reduce us to easily understood stereotypes, but you don't seem to understand that there's complexity behind all of the perceived simplicity. If you're not able to accept criticism without throwing out a ton of 'bro, dude, yo, brah' (property) remarks about men, then you're not ready to give advice.
It's sad to see how many people seem to like pigeonholing men into these comfortable little soundbites that are easy to wrap your itty-bitty brains around. I guess it's easier to pretend you understand something than to admit you don't.
Women, are you all money-grubbing, backstabbing bitches, clamoring for social status before you inevitably fill the void in your lives by having numerous children? No? Then shut up about men.
Gays, are you all lost, neurotic man-children who love to dance, and have nonstop anonymous sex in an effort to acquire the father you never had? No? Then shut up about straight men.
I know, since we're a (not technical)'majority' and we're not really afraid of being stereotyped, we play along with it ourselves. But just like the self deprecating guy at the party, it's usually because we're actually comfortable not taking things too seriously. You should be so lucky to have that comfortability.
Oh, and also, as #59 says, it's more about being kind to a friend. You just like to assume we're all dicks and that this is about 'property.'
Pathetic.
I know it's fun to reduce us to easily understood stereotypes, but you don't seem to understand that there's complexity behind all of the perceived simplicity. If you're not able to accept criticism without throwing out a ton of 'bro, dude, yo, brah' (property) remarks about men, then you're not ready to give advice.
It's sad to see how many people seem to like pigeonholing men into these comfortable little soundbites that are easy to wrap your itty-bitty brains around. I guess it's easier to pretend you understand something than to admit you don't.
Women, are you all money-grubbing, backstabbing bitches, clamoring for social status before you inevitably fill the void in your lives by having numerous children? No? Then shut up about men.
Gays, are you all lost, neurotic man-children who love to dance, and have nonstop anonymous sex in an effort to acquire the father you never had? No? Then shut up about straight men.
I know, since we're a (not technical)'majority' and we're not really afraid of being stereotyped, we play along with it ourselves. But just like the self deprecating guy at the party, it's usually because we're actually comfortable not taking things too seriously. You should be so lucky to have that comfortability.
Oh, and also, as #59 says, it's more about being kind to a friend. You just like to assume we're all dicks and that this is about 'property.'
Pathetic.
63
I don't know...sure the author of the letter put it very Neanderthal-esque. But if your heart had just been ripped out by someone I think a good friend avoids dating or sleeping with that person who you are broke up about.
Maybe the gay code is "a good lay is a good lay--every man for himself". However, if you remove all the "6 months limit" and "kick his ass" lingo, it really is about respecting your friends. Straight guys have more difficulty talking about this. Perhaps gay guys would be more willing to take their gay friend aside and say "this guy tore my heart out, and even though he's hot as hell and u guys seem to hit it off please don't fuck him or date him it will really jeopardize our friendship...." so straight guys make a hetero "code".
Maybe the gay code is "a good lay is a good lay--every man for himself". However, if you remove all the "6 months limit" and "kick his ass" lingo, it really is about respecting your friends. Straight guys have more difficulty talking about this. Perhaps gay guys would be more willing to take their gay friend aside and say "this guy tore my heart out, and even though he's hot as hell and u guys seem to hit it off please don't fuck him or date him it will really jeopardize our friendship...." so straight guys make a hetero "code".
64
"The Code," while usually presented as being about simple courtesy, is in practice almost always employed by possessive and (in the case of guys like MEAT) violent assholes who feel that once they've had a woman nobody else can have her. If straight guys actually stepped away from every opportunity to date the ex of somebody in their social circle ("second tier friends" includes lots of people) then nobody would ever date anybody.
As far as the "beatings" thing goes -- I guess that means that big, tough guys who could take you in a fight don't have to honor the "Code," right? Sound fair?
Women aren't property, and just because you had a nice day at Disneyland does not mean you now own Disneyland. Give it a fucking rest, MEAThead.
As far as the "beatings" thing goes -- I guess that means that big, tough guys who could take you in a fight don't have to honor the "Code," right? Sound fair?
Women aren't property, and just because you had a nice day at Disneyland does not mean you now own Disneyland. Give it a fucking rest, MEAThead.
66
This code is not specific to males. Most women wouldn't be too happy with a female friend who fucks her ex shortly after they break up.
67
Would you really want to stay in a relationship with someone that was not only attracted to but getting emotionally invested in one of your friends?
Getting past the heartbreak and wounded pride, wouldn't you feel sort of piggish for insisting they not be together, even if they make each other really happy, just to forever spare your hurt feelings?
Getting angry, at the end of any torrid affair, is legit. Not being able to be around your friend and ex while you get over it, is legit. Saying horrible, outrageous things about your ex and your friend to a couple of very close friends, to vent, is legit. Being so heartbroken by the whole thing that you can't bring yourself to ever really be friends with your ex and ex-friend except for civility in social situations, is insisting upon your own continued misery but legit. Demanding mutual friends ostracize your ex and rogue friend and trying to tell other people whom they may date and beatings to top it off, is not. That's possessive.
Getting past the heartbreak and wounded pride, wouldn't you feel sort of piggish for insisting they not be together, even if they make each other really happy, just to forever spare your hurt feelings?
Getting angry, at the end of any torrid affair, is legit. Not being able to be around your friend and ex while you get over it, is legit. Saying horrible, outrageous things about your ex and your friend to a couple of very close friends, to vent, is legit. Being so heartbroken by the whole thing that you can't bring yourself to ever really be friends with your ex and ex-friend except for civility in social situations, is insisting upon your own continued misery but legit. Demanding mutual friends ostracize your ex and rogue friend and trying to tell other people whom they may date and beatings to top it off, is not. That's possessive.
68
Also agree with #4. One good friend and I often introduce each women we know when we're single. Neither of us go after any woman the other still cares about, the rest are OK.
We've never talked about it, it's just understood. It's not about property, it's about honor.
We've never talked about it, it's just understood. It's not about property, it's about honor.
69
@67:
A true friend wouldn't put you in the position of having to demand that they don' date your ex.
You know the old saying, "with friends like these..."
I am truely sorry that you had to experience that.
A true friend wouldn't put you in the position of having to demand that they don' date your ex.
You know the old saying, "with friends like these..."
I am truely sorry that you had to experience that.
70
@69
Actually, I'm 52 and 57, honey. And for the record I've been the heartbroken friend as well as the girlfriend dating an ex's friend in different situations...and we're all still friends. But I'm part French so maybe that's it. And no, there's no friend's ex I want. I just moved somewhere new and therefore have no friends only new acquaintances, most of them gay men, and none of their charming exes would touch my gorgeous naked female body with a 10 foot pole. That said, I have never gone with a friend's ex and it has never occurred me. Unlikely, given the history of my friends' tastes in men.
But your original comment to me is right for the wrong reasons...I do have a bigger problem than a controlling ex. I keep ending up checking back at this thing when I should be writing a grad dissertation. SLOG is too much of a procrastination excuse. I'm out to go fuck one of my friend's exes. Or something.
Actually, I'm 52 and 57, honey. And for the record I've been the heartbroken friend as well as the girlfriend dating an ex's friend in different situations...and we're all still friends. But I'm part French so maybe that's it. And no, there's no friend's ex I want. I just moved somewhere new and therefore have no friends only new acquaintances, most of them gay men, and none of their charming exes would touch my gorgeous naked female body with a 10 foot pole. That said, I have never gone with a friend's ex and it has never occurred me. Unlikely, given the history of my friends' tastes in men.
But your original comment to me is right for the wrong reasons...I do have a bigger problem than a controlling ex. I keep ending up checking back at this thing when I should be writing a grad dissertation. SLOG is too much of a procrastination excuse. I'm out to go fuck one of my friend's exes. Or something.
71
@69: A 'true friend' might feel bad about their friend hooking up with an ex, but they would suck it up and move on because they wanted to see their ex and their friend be happy.
73
Somebody seems to be missing the whole point of dis here discussion. No one that I'm close to would want to date any of my ex's out of just plain respect for my feelings.
Does it really need any more explanation than that????
Here's a happy scenario for yous: My friends & I like to actively discuss our sex lives. Do I really want to compare notes on past & current lovers that I share in common with my friends?????? No, I do not.
If it makes you feel good that your friend & ex hook up, then more power to you. I personally wouldn't wish any of my ex's on my friends. They're an ex for a reason.
Does it really need any more explanation than that????
Here's a happy scenario for yous: My friends & I like to actively discuss our sex lives. Do I really want to compare notes on past & current lovers that I share in common with my friends?????? No, I do not.
If it makes you feel good that your friend & ex hook up, then more power to you. I personally wouldn't wish any of my ex's on my friends. They're an ex for a reason.
74
@49, 66 Exactly. It's not gender or orientation-specific. The purest form of what everyone is calling the code is being a friend to your friend. Don't be an asshole. Respect friendships. Blah blah blah. I would think that this would be common sense, but the world continues to prove me wrong.
76
Wow. Amazingly, this whole "code" thing has never come up for me, but it so closely resembles something that my friends and I grew through that I can't help but think: Some guys, apparently, work with the relationship paradigms of seventh-grade girls.
Because by grade eight? We'd figured out that relationships are complicated, and you try not to hurt the people you care about, but sometimes people just don't mesh even when you think they should/they thought they did awhile ago, sometimes people hurt each other without wanting to, and sometimes all you can do is suck it up and get over yourself. We're all just looking to be happy -- getting hung up on rules and angst about how we get there is totally counterproductive. Go with what works. Keep breathing, and it'll all come out in the end.
Because by grade eight? We'd figured out that relationships are complicated, and you try not to hurt the people you care about, but sometimes people just don't mesh even when you think they should/they thought they did awhile ago, sometimes people hurt each other without wanting to, and sometimes all you can do is suck it up and get over yourself. We're all just looking to be happy -- getting hung up on rules and angst about how we get there is totally counterproductive. Go with what works. Keep breathing, and it'll all come out in the end.
78
Dan, you are spot on with this one. As a woman I am going to say that I am going to fuck anyone I want. I agree that its shitty if my best friend would fuck my ex if they knew it would hurt me. But to say there is some six month statute of limitations on just asking to date a woman makes me suspect that MEAT thinks of women as property. The woman in the original post is free to make her own decisions that make her happy. And if her ex truly cared for her he would get over his petty jealousy and be glad she found someone that provides that joy.
79
If y'all weren't such a bunch of misogynistic savages you'd be OK with your friend actually dating your ex immediately or even precipitating the break up. Why wouldn't you be glad she found someone that provides her with more joy than you? In my burning man group I can't even keep track of who's dating who any more.
80
My brother is one of the most rational, mature, reasonable men on earth. But when his wife cheated on him with one of her ex-boyfriends, my brother told him "The next time I see you, I'm going to beat your ass into the ground." It is a guy-code thing.
Of course, he didn't ACTUALLY beat him, and he never will. The guy kept away from my brother for about a year, though, just to be safe.
Of course, he didn't ACTUALLY beat him, and he never will. The guy kept away from my brother for about a year, though, just to be safe.
81
Both Dan and MEAT are right.
Dan is right that nobody has control over their ex's sex life. FIM and his friend's ex can fuck all they want.
MEAT is right that FIM is likely going to damage or destroy his relationship with his friend, and quite possibly his relationship with a lot of their mutual circle, whether male or female.
So, whether Dan's advice is right or night depends on whether it's more important to FIM to be with this girl NOW, or whether he'd rather preserve those relationships by waiting.
Dan is right that nobody has control over their ex's sex life. FIM and his friend's ex can fuck all they want.
MEAT is right that FIM is likely going to damage or destroy his relationship with his friend, and quite possibly his relationship with a lot of their mutual circle, whether male or female.
So, whether Dan's advice is right or night depends on whether it's more important to FIM to be with this girl NOW, or whether he'd rather preserve those relationships by waiting.
82
I am incredulous. Is "MEAT" actually arguing that it is inconsequential whether his ex-girlfriend has the right to date whomever she wants, and whether he has the right to control her? It is just strange to think that one would sabotage the relationship of a former lover despite her voluntary desire for it. That is truly arrogant.
MEAT's argument sounds like a defense of outmoded (if they ever even were the mode) alpha-male corralling of potential "incubators" (females) for the alpha-male's genes. It seems like an embrace of some primitive impulse to hoard such "incubators" against competition from other males, with whom the female may wish to mate.
Of course, I believe such a "man-code" is total bunk, and would have believed it was bunk even when it was the case. After all, that a state of affairs is true does not mean that it should be true (which is partly why I oppose biological determinism). It appears to be a desperate, artificial construction of some sort of "masculine social mystique". At any rate, I have no sympathy for men who try to control women's actions, whether because they want to propagate their genes, because they merely suffer from jealousy, or for any other reason. It was bad (for everybody other than the alpha-male) in the first place, and it still is. I care more about people's autonomy than about spreading my seed, even if MEAT doesn't.
Dan, I am glad you disagree with MEAT concerning the irrational disregard by jealous men of their former lovers' voluntary participation in subsequent romantic affairs.
B. Arkell
http://discoasylum.blogspot.com
MEAT's argument sounds like a defense of outmoded (if they ever even were the mode) alpha-male corralling of potential "incubators" (females) for the alpha-male's genes. It seems like an embrace of some primitive impulse to hoard such "incubators" against competition from other males, with whom the female may wish to mate.
Of course, I believe such a "man-code" is total bunk, and would have believed it was bunk even when it was the case. After all, that a state of affairs is true does not mean that it should be true (which is partly why I oppose biological determinism). It appears to be a desperate, artificial construction of some sort of "masculine social mystique". At any rate, I have no sympathy for men who try to control women's actions, whether because they want to propagate their genes, because they merely suffer from jealousy, or for any other reason. It was bad (for everybody other than the alpha-male) in the first place, and it still is. I care more about people's autonomy than about spreading my seed, even if MEAT doesn't.
Dan, I am glad you disagree with MEAT concerning the irrational disregard by jealous men of their former lovers' voluntary participation in subsequent romantic affairs.
B. Arkell
http://discoasylum.blogspot.com
83
@24 "makes a whole lot of sense if you are a woman or a gay man. Otherwise, it's just theory. That's not how it works Dan, sorry to tell you."
Oh, right, because only what makes sense to straight guys is not theory?
Oh, right, because only what makes sense to straight guys is not theory?
84
@77 Yup! I'm currently living with the ex of one of my friends. He's marvellous. They just kind of drifted out of love, no fireworks to the break-up at all. I think that probably helped. He did ring her up before asking me out, less for 'permission' than to give her the heads up and make sure she felt comfortable with the situation, and she was happy that he was interested in me and chuffed when things worked out. And no one got beaten up! Amazing!
85
Let's see: groups of men banding together to socially punish a woman who slept with one of them, and threatening violence against anyone who breaks the code... Nope, no misogyny here.
Especially disturbing are the commenters who say this has nothing to do with the woman, and is just about the relationship between the men. Women are people too, you know, and even if you don't buy into it yourself, you are enabling a culture of slut-shaming and oppression.
Especially disturbing are the commenters who say this has nothing to do with the woman, and is just about the relationship between the men. Women are people too, you know, and even if you don't buy into it yourself, you are enabling a culture of slut-shaming and oppression.
86
Ugh. Another reason I lose interest in men and see the benefit of women as the the days go by on the calendar.
Who needs this bullshit?
Who needs this bullshit?
88
Fuck off; 'bros before hos'. That's insanely stupid. Hetero guys should drop that shit right now.
The two guys weren't even super close friends. If they were best friends, it might be slightly different, but they weren't.
I'm hetero and male, but I'm also poly, so all this weird-ass 'code' shit is baffling to me.
Maybe people should figure out a code where they're happy when their friends are happy. Dan was right the first time; the fooling around is a symptom, not a cause. She would dump the old boyfriend anyway, so everyone should just be glad that she found someone else that's making her excited.
The two guys weren't even super close friends. If they were best friends, it might be slightly different, but they weren't.
I'm hetero and male, but I'm also poly, so all this weird-ass 'code' shit is baffling to me.
Maybe people should figure out a code where they're happy when their friends are happy. Dan was right the first time; the fooling around is a symptom, not a cause. She would dump the old boyfriend anyway, so everyone should just be glad that she found someone else that's making her excited.
89
I've seen elements of the code in my own circles, but even then it was regarded as douchebaggery on behalf of those who would invoke it. Even then, the only time I got pissed off at someone dating my ex, it was because he was treating her like crap, and I felt she deserved better. She agreed,
I'm with Olo @16, Irena @28 and Pablo @55 friends of mine who would get together with my ex do so with my blessing and hopes they make each other happy (or in the shorter term, that he can make her transition easier). If she needs to be getting some as part of processing the breakup, I don't see any reason I would obstruct her options to strangers outside our mutual circle of friends.
Of course, my own code is to love and respect my partners as individuals first, and as paramours second, and that includes respect for whatever they need to do to move on from us. Even if that means doing one of our mutual friends.
I get along with a lot of my exes.
I'm with Olo @16, Irena @28 and Pablo @55 friends of mine who would get together with my ex do so with my blessing and hopes they make each other happy (or in the shorter term, that he can make her transition easier). If she needs to be getting some as part of processing the breakup, I don't see any reason I would obstruct her options to strangers outside our mutual circle of friends.
Of course, my own code is to love and respect my partners as individuals first, and as paramours second, and that includes respect for whatever they need to do to move on from us. Even if that means doing one of our mutual friends.
I get along with a lot of my exes.
90
Jade @51, there seems to be an inherent presumption that it's right to be jealous of the sex your ex is getting. That's bullshit. Rebounders get sexual for plenty of reasons, whether they drive one proverbial nail out with another, need contrast to recognize what it was they saw in the ex or simple reassurance that they're still attractive on a sexual level. But it is, in no way, my place to obstruct what my ex needs to do to process our recent division.
And Keekee @52 most circles of friends, as they evolve with time, become quite incestuous. It's especially the case when a couple, as an item, introduces each other to all their friends. Because of remnants of the code, I've watched my best friend and his wife become detached from all their friends, including myself, as everyone was expected to choose a side. I couldn't. Both husband and wife now have no connection with their friends from that era.
And Keekee @52 most circles of friends, as they evolve with time, become quite incestuous. It's especially the case when a couple, as an item, introduces each other to all their friends. Because of remnants of the code, I've watched my best friend and his wife become detached from all their friends, including myself, as everyone was expected to choose a side. I couldn't. Both husband and wife now have no connection with their friends from that era.
91
Uriel-238, yes, I seem to be saying two different things here. There's the case of going after a friends partner; and then there's the case of going after a friend's ex.
I know that in my posts, #35 & #51, I'm not being clear. But I think that the former is always a shitty thing to do (whether you're the one cheating or the "friend" being cheated with), and the latter is sometimes a shitty thing to do. It's only shitty if the one dumped is still hurting.
What seems to be forgotten in the original letter is that the original relationship is still going on and the boyfriend really cares about the girl. I simply do not think it would be unreasonable for the boyfriend to be pissed off that his friend (even if they aren't "best friends") has fucked his girlfriend.
When love is involved, it's going to hurt to be dumped. It's going to hurt twice as bad if someone you thought of as a friend is the reason you got dumped. That's not jealousy; that's getting shit on by two people you thought you could trust. And if you're the friend or the girlfriend, and you care about the boyfriend getting dumped, why in the world would you do that to him? He's already hurting.
These hurt feelings, the sense of betrayal, and the resultant anger at the friend have nothing to do with thinking we own another person. That's bullshit rationalizing of shitty behavior. It's a type of blaming the victim. A victim who's not only lost his/her partner, but also a friend.
But like I said at post 35, this only matters if the person dumped still has feelings for his/her ex. A real friend wouldn't stomp all over that.
And yes, personally, once I was over my ex, I wouldn't care if he dated my own sister if it made them both happy. I hope/think I'm a reasonable person. Buy while I'm still missing him, while I'm still working out what went wrong, is it too much to ask that my friend find another guy's cock to suck?
More...
I know that in my posts, #35 & #51, I'm not being clear. But I think that the former is always a shitty thing to do (whether you're the one cheating or the "friend" being cheated with), and the latter is sometimes a shitty thing to do. It's only shitty if the one dumped is still hurting.
What seems to be forgotten in the original letter is that the original relationship is still going on and the boyfriend really cares about the girl. I simply do not think it would be unreasonable for the boyfriend to be pissed off that his friend (even if they aren't "best friends") has fucked his girlfriend.
When love is involved, it's going to hurt to be dumped. It's going to hurt twice as bad if someone you thought of as a friend is the reason you got dumped. That's not jealousy; that's getting shit on by two people you thought you could trust. And if you're the friend or the girlfriend, and you care about the boyfriend getting dumped, why in the world would you do that to him? He's already hurting.
These hurt feelings, the sense of betrayal, and the resultant anger at the friend have nothing to do with thinking we own another person. That's bullshit rationalizing of shitty behavior. It's a type of blaming the victim. A victim who's not only lost his/her partner, but also a friend.
But like I said at post 35, this only matters if the person dumped still has feelings for his/her ex. A real friend wouldn't stomp all over that.
And yes, personally, once I was over my ex, I wouldn't care if he dated my own sister if it made them both happy. I hope/think I'm a reasonable person. Buy while I'm still missing him, while I'm still working out what went wrong, is it too much to ask that my friend find another guy's cock to suck?
92
Dan's ommission, if anything, was failing to note that if he and "the girl" observed the no-contact period as recommended, at least one of them would probably lose interest in the other.
93
Wow. I can't believe how many people are saying, "It's not about possessiveness of women, it's about being nice to your friends."
Yes, because even after some woman has broken up with you, you have the right to prevent her from having a sex life by pitching a fit if she gets together with anyone you know, demanding they wait until *you're* okay with it, and demanding the physical beating of any man sniffing around her. Yeah. That's not possessive. It's just about being nice.
I strongly doubt all straight guys--or all straight girls, as some have claimed--are like this. If you are in a group of friends that follows this "code", I'm here to tell you that you should be able to find a better group of friends.
Eight years ago, it was my first year of college. My best friend from high school had started dating some guy during the summer--I met him in September, thought they were a great couple. They continued dating until December. Did I mention that I discovered I attended the same college as this guy and saw him around all the time? We fell in love. In March--only two months after their break-up, oh noes--I took my girlfriend out to lunch and said, "Guy and I like each other and we're going to go out." I was telling her, not asking her, but I wanted to break it to her gently. That's being nice to a friend.
Two months ago, she attended our wedding. If she had pulled Code on me, she'd have cheated me out of the love of my life--someone she wasn't even dating anymore, and had no claim to.
People who talk about the Code being about respecting your friends have to realise it goes both ways. If your friend really likes your ex, why, as a friend, would you deny him why may be a big love in his life?
Yes, because even after some woman has broken up with you, you have the right to prevent her from having a sex life by pitching a fit if she gets together with anyone you know, demanding they wait until *you're* okay with it, and demanding the physical beating of any man sniffing around her. Yeah. That's not possessive. It's just about being nice.
I strongly doubt all straight guys--or all straight girls, as some have claimed--are like this. If you are in a group of friends that follows this "code", I'm here to tell you that you should be able to find a better group of friends.
Eight years ago, it was my first year of college. My best friend from high school had started dating some guy during the summer--I met him in September, thought they were a great couple. They continued dating until December. Did I mention that I discovered I attended the same college as this guy and saw him around all the time? We fell in love. In March--only two months after their break-up, oh noes--I took my girlfriend out to lunch and said, "Guy and I like each other and we're going to go out." I was telling her, not asking her, but I wanted to break it to her gently. That's being nice to a friend.
Two months ago, she attended our wedding. If she had pulled Code on me, she'd have cheated me out of the love of my life--someone she wasn't even dating anymore, and had no claim to.
People who talk about the Code being about respecting your friends have to realise it goes both ways. If your friend really likes your ex, why, as a friend, would you deny him why may be a big love in his life?
94
Of course he doesn't need her ex's permission to date her.
(That relationship is between FIM & her.)
He does, however, have to be up-front if he wants to stay friends with said's ex --his current friend-- as one should try to be with all one's friends.
(That relationship is between FIM & him.)
(That relationship is between FIM & her.)
He does, however, have to be up-front if he wants to stay friends with said's ex --his current friend-- as one should try to be with all one's friends.
(That relationship is between FIM & him.)
95
This reminded me of a situation in my own life. My husband and I have an "understanding" when it comes to fooling around w/ other people. I really haven't taken advantage of it, as I have minimal interest in other guys and because I am less capable of light-hearted, friendly, fuckin' around than he is. But I did once proposition a friend of ours (more mine than his, if it matters) who I thought fit the profile perfectly. His response was that he wouldn't feel right doing that to my guy. I let him off the hook, because, after all, I hardly want to be in the position of convincing him to do something he'd be sad about later. But he knows my husband fools around with other women and he knew what our understanding was. Assuming he wasn't just making an excuse because he wasn't interested (and of course I can't be certain, but based on other factors, I really don't think that was the case) how can it be anything but a nod to some sort of code of patriarchal male ownership?
96
@95: Riiiight . . . your husband's buddy rejects your advances and the only rational explanation is he's a tool of the patriarchy. Get over yourself.
97
Who the hell doesn't know about Bros B4 Hoes? Hipsters?
And as some have mentionned, it's got nothing to with women as property. It's about friendship. Sleeping with your friend's ex is like sleeping with your dad's mistress. While not technically incest, it's just not worth the problems it's going to create.
And as some have mentionned, it's got nothing to with women as property. It's about friendship. Sleeping with your friend's ex is like sleeping with your dad's mistress. While not technically incest, it's just not worth the problems it's going to create.
98
WoW!
Peoples are really hung up on this "ownership/possesiveness" thang. If anything to me, it's a feeling of ownership towards the friendship not the former relationship with the ex. I try to take ownership for all my actions which would include making the moves on my friend's ex's. That's just a shitty thing to do to someone you call a friend. Is that really so hard for yous to understand????? I think some of the commentors here don' like taking a look in the mirror. So, they use somebody else's actions to justify their own shitty behavior. A sad, but fairly typical response I suppose.
As for Jade @90:
Huh? My social circle only got incestuous when I was a teenager/in college. Once I got out in the real world, it didn't see this stuff happening. Once we all got past raging hormones/immaturity it just seemed to vanish. The way you put it, just sounds like rationalizations to me.
As for the having to pick sides when friends divorce, yah that sucks, but it has been my experience that it is unavoidable.
It would be interesting to know the age demographics of some of the commentors here. I truely believe that someone's age/maturity level factors greatly into this discussion.
Peoples are really hung up on this "ownership/possesiveness" thang. If anything to me, it's a feeling of ownership towards the friendship not the former relationship with the ex. I try to take ownership for all my actions which would include making the moves on my friend's ex's. That's just a shitty thing to do to someone you call a friend. Is that really so hard for yous to understand????? I think some of the commentors here don' like taking a look in the mirror. So, they use somebody else's actions to justify their own shitty behavior. A sad, but fairly typical response I suppose.
As for Jade @90:
Huh? My social circle only got incestuous when I was a teenager/in college. Once I got out in the real world, it didn't see this stuff happening. Once we all got past raging hormones/immaturity it just seemed to vanish. The way you put it, just sounds like rationalizations to me.
As for the having to pick sides when friends divorce, yah that sucks, but it has been my experience that it is unavoidable.
It would be interesting to know the age demographics of some of the commentors here. I truely believe that someone's age/maturity level factors greatly into this discussion.
100
MEAT's attitude is exemplary of why most men are so lousy with women - can't attract them, can't keep them, bitch endlessly about them.
Rob
Rob
101
@89 You are so right. And it really is mature and cool that you get along with your exes. Otherwise when you see your sisters at Thanksgiving etc those family get-togethers can be so awkward.
102
If the lady (or gentleman) is an EX, the relationship is over. I know in some cases it would be painful to see somebody you loved and lost skip merrily into the sunset with someone else...but it's over. The faster a person accepts it and concerns themselves with their own dating prospects and stops obsessing over the EX's dating prospects, the better it is. It's just best to put the EX out of your mind entirely if it was a messy break up. Sign it, put in a file, and seal it in a box marked 'DONE' and just get out there and start dating other people. If the EX's wedding invitation arrives in the mail one day, send them a note saying, "Have a nice life...enjoy these dish towels/pot holders/blender/etc....don't call me, I'll call you..." and file the episode in the round file.
103
"'Bros B4 Hoes' [has] nothing to with women as property. It's about friendship."
OK, so calling your girlfriend a ho is about friendship. Damn. Another memo I missed.
(aside to 98 -- I'm an old guy.)
OK, so calling your girlfriend a ho is about friendship. Damn. Another memo I missed.
(aside to 98 -- I'm an old guy.)
104
LW MEAT is leaving out, and no one here is picking up on, one crucial aspect of this rule: hierarchy matters.
Meat is obviously a gamma male at best, not even a beta. If his girlfriend were were to date the alpha male in his pack, he'd take it and like it. That's the rule. For people who follow them. But it's more likely she's fucking the beta, who makes her laugh, and just not telling him.
Meat is obviously a gamma male at best, not even a beta. If his girlfriend were were to date the alpha male in his pack, he'd take it and like it. That's the rule. For people who follow them. But it's more likely she's fucking the beta, who makes her laugh, and just not telling him.
105
LW MEAT is leaving out, and no one here is picking up on, one crucial aspect of this rule: hierarchy matters.
Meat is obviously a gamma male at best, not even a beta. If his girlfriend were were to date the alpha male in his pack, he'd take it and like it. That's the rule. For people who follow them. But it's more likely she's fucking the beta, who makes her laugh, and just not telling him.
Meat is obviously a gamma male at best, not even a beta. If his girlfriend were were to date the alpha male in his pack, he'd take it and like it. That's the rule. For people who follow them. But it's more likely she's fucking the beta, who makes her laugh, and just not telling him.
107
#93.
I stopped reading here, since no one--especially me--has said that. Unregistered commenters don't count.
KeeKee@98, post #90 was not written by me. That was Uriel-238. I've agreed with everything you've said in this thread, and I think you make a lot of sense.
I'm in my 40s.
by pitching a fit if she gets together with anyone you know,italics mine
I stopped reading here, since no one--especially me--has said that. Unregistered commenters don't count.
KeeKee@98, post #90 was not written by me. That was Uriel-238. I've agreed with everything you've said in this thread, and I think you make a lot of sense.
I'm in my 40s.
108
@103 & @ 104 -- awesome comments!
And I'll second what Uriel-238 said: "the code" should be regarded as douchebaggery on behalf of those who would invoke it.
@98, I'm a lithe and lissome 40, and I agree with Dan, who is 44.
And I'll second what Uriel-238 said: "the code" should be regarded as douchebaggery on behalf of those who would invoke it.
@98, I'm a lithe and lissome 40, and I agree with Dan, who is 44.
109
#96 - As I said, he is really my friend, though he is friendly with my husband. And as I noted, I have reason to believe that he is attracted to me - specifically, both his actions and his explicit statements before, after, and at the time. But really, I can concede your point. Let's assume that he was not at all interested in me. And for whatever reason he didn't feel comfortable just saying "I like you, but not like that." There are a lot of excuses he could have made. The excuse he did make was, "No matter what a guy says, no matter how many other women he may fool around with, he is not really cool with another guy touching his wife. And only a stranger or an asshole would do it. I could not do that to him." He obviously thought that was a reasonable excuse, not gibberish. How do you explain that, if not hearkening back to some patriarchal code of ownership?
110
It may not result in a beating, but it's defnitely frowned upon to fuck a friend's GF and most men don't want their friends dating their exes or their sisters. It may be patriarchal and retrograde, but it's generally true among hetero men. I think enlightened liberals and progressives live in a fantasy world where they impose their values on reality, often denying their own past behavior or jealousy in order to appear enlightned to women and other sensitive guys, but to act like this kind of behavior isn't common (or tied to evolutionary biology) is just sensitive guy posturing. The "code" is probably a bad thing and should be something consigned to the past, but most men (even in Seattle) are pretty serious about this kind of shit. Trust me. I know women don't want to hear it, but most guys are like that.
111
The Code is great because it keeps all the 'nice guys' from getting with the hot women when they become available. Guys like me get a clear field for six months and believe me we start working it from day minus one. By the time the Code's six-months hands-off rule is no longer in effect, I've already scooped up the lady and the sad little Code-babies can't do nothing about it but cry in they pillow.
112
It's really more about the relationship than the ex, the statute of limitations, or anything else. If you care about a friend who had a rough break up, and you know it would pain them to see another friend with his ex, you just don't do it.
If she's so hot that it's worth tossing the bro-friendship away for, then fair game. It does happen.
If she's so hot that it's worth tossing the bro-friendship away for, then fair game. It does happen.
113
@ 107 --
If you object to my phrasing "anyone you know", what if I change it to "a friend"? Honestly, I don't see the distinction.
If my ex began dating *anyone*, I don't think I have the right to pitch a fit, whether he begins to date a friend of mine or an acquaintance or a stranger.
@110
Quotage: "It may be patriarchal and retrograde, but it's generally true among hetero men. I think enlightened liberals and progressives live in a fantasy world where they impose their values on reality..."
Isn't that a good thing, though? Isn't it good that some people may be acting more enlightened than they feel? The more people pretend act civilized, the more we are really civilized. After, say, 5 years of pretending to be okay with the idea that your exes and friends have a right to their own sex lives, you might actually believe it. You would eventually become that enlightened person you were previously only pretending to be. And, because of your influence, so might some people around you.
If you object to my phrasing "anyone you know", what if I change it to "a friend"? Honestly, I don't see the distinction.
If my ex began dating *anyone*, I don't think I have the right to pitch a fit, whether he begins to date a friend of mine or an acquaintance or a stranger.
@110
Quotage: "It may be patriarchal and retrograde, but it's generally true among hetero men. I think enlightened liberals and progressives live in a fantasy world where they impose their values on reality..."
Isn't that a good thing, though? Isn't it good that some people may be acting more enlightened than they feel? The more people pretend act civilized, the more we are really civilized. After, say, 5 years of pretending to be okay with the idea that your exes and friends have a right to their own sex lives, you might actually believe it. You would eventually become that enlightened person you were previously only pretending to be. And, because of your influence, so might some people around you.
115
Jade @91 You're right that I was speaking specifically relationships that are already discontinued. My personal experience has been more with open relationships and the protocol around them than ones that are strictly exclusive. In that regard, it's always a good idea to get the blessing of a paramour's primary partner before courting him or her. Responsibility for that falls on the involved partner, but talking directly to the primary is an act of prudence and good etiquette.
Regarding exclusive relationships, I think Dan is right, that a roving partner is indicative of a relationship coming apart. In the role of being a friend to both, I'd encourage the issue get voiced, so that the relationship can be adjusted amicably, rather than dissolved inequitably. If the partner is someone like MEAT who would be at risk of getting violent with this kind of discussion, then an intervention is required, including assault and battery charges, and a court order or even jail time as necessary. Violence or abuse are never acceptable in civilized discourse.
Regarding exclusive relationships, I think Dan is right, that a roving partner is indicative of a relationship coming apart. In the role of being a friend to both, I'd encourage the issue get voiced, so that the relationship can be adjusted amicably, rather than dissolved inequitably. If the partner is someone like MEAT who would be at risk of getting violent with this kind of discussion, then an intervention is required, including assault and battery charges, and a court order or even jail time as necessary. Violence or abuse are never acceptable in civilized discourse.
117
Keekee @98 In my opinion, the choosing sides thing after a breakup thing shouldn't be regarded as an unavoidable outcome, though maybe this is because I expect a higher level of maturity from my fellow humans than is normal. I presume, until revealed otherwise, a breakup is due to personality conflicts that cannot be attributed specifically to one person or another, hence I expect both parties can be civil to each other, and to those of us who are friends to them both in the rare times they can't avoid being in the same room while processing the separation.
I should mention I've been proven wrong from time to time. In one case, half of an encoupled item burned his brain out over three years on a continuous pot-and-E habit and transformed from a gentle intellectual into a cynical unempathetic bastard. As a close friend of his, he did a good job of trodding my heart as well.
Again, I can only speak anecdotally, but my own resentments in even my worst breakups have been only temporary, and even then I've never lost sight that my exes are people I've loved and shared extreme intimacy. The cases in which I've needed to permanently separate myself from an ex are rare exceptions. I'd like to think the rest of humanity is more like this than not.
Early forties, though I had much of this attitude since my late twenties.
I should mention I've been proven wrong from time to time. In one case, half of an encoupled item burned his brain out over three years on a continuous pot-and-E habit and transformed from a gentle intellectual into a cynical unempathetic bastard. As a close friend of his, he did a good job of trodding my heart as well.
Again, I can only speak anecdotally, but my own resentments in even my worst breakups have been only temporary, and even then I've never lost sight that my exes are people I've loved and shared extreme intimacy. The cases in which I've needed to permanently separate myself from an ex are rare exceptions. I'd like to think the rest of humanity is more like this than not.
Early forties, though I had much of this attitude since my late twenties.
118
@114: Forgiven :)
Can we all agree that friends should be treated with love and respect, but MEAT still sounds like a douchebag?
Can we agree that Paris is the capital of France?
Can we all agree that friends should be treated with love and respect, but MEAT still sounds like a douchebag?
Can we agree that Paris is the capital of France?
119
Michelle @113,
it's nice to try to change society,
but sometimes it gets a little grating when do-good libs and actual leftists and freaky deaky people think that a bunch of talk, talk, talk and modern postures really have changed anything, or that their little circles are The World and that Progress has been made.
Take it from me, I live far from any circles of enlightenment. Having lived in exile this long, I can now see so much of the posturing for what it is, even though I fully sympathize with a lot of the urges to change things.
And 111 is right. I tend to give gals a chance to be by themselves right after a breakup, and I'm continually amazed at how long that doesn't last and some prick has swooped in.
it's nice to try to change society,
but sometimes it gets a little grating when do-good libs and actual leftists and freaky deaky people think that a bunch of talk, talk, talk and modern postures really have changed anything, or that their little circles are The World and that Progress has been made.
Take it from me, I live far from any circles of enlightenment. Having lived in exile this long, I can now see so much of the posturing for what it is, even though I fully sympathize with a lot of the urges to change things.
And 111 is right. I tend to give gals a chance to be by themselves right after a breakup, and I'm continually amazed at how long that doesn't last and some prick has swooped in.
120
Uriel-238, you're my hero! I'd bold your name, but I daren't!
#118, thanks, sweetie. :-)
Absolutely!
#118, thanks, sweetie. :-)
Can we all agree that friends should be treated with love and respect, but MEAT still sounds like a douchebag?
Absolutely!
121
Hey Jade & Uriel-238:
My sincerest apologies for mixing you guys up in my previous response. You both have given me serious food for thought, and I truely appreciate that.
Jade:
You are so right about @118. That pretty much sums up this whole conversation.
My sincerest apologies for mixing you guys up in my previous response. You both have given me serious food for thought, and I truely appreciate that.
Jade:
You are so right about @118. That pretty much sums up this whole conversation.
123
A lot of the people offended by Bros B4 Hoes insist that when the relationship is over, it's over. Nobody disagrees with that. But if your friend goes out with your ex, then it's not really over, is it? Unless, that is, you don't have any real friends.
A lot of people think they have friends but really don't.
A lot of people think they have friends but really don't.
124
Right on sirkowski! In a round-about way, that what I've been trying to say on this here thread.
125
Further evidence that people just can't fucking be adults about their exes. My husband and I are both good friends with one of my exes AND one of his exes and you know what that gets us? A lot of people looking at us funny and a couple's counselor acquaintance who thinks that it's ALWAYS unhealthy to be friends with an ex.
126
That's great, laurelgardner, but being friends with an ex has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
That being said, the couples counselor that you know is full of shit.
That being said, the couples counselor that you know is full of shit.
127
The irony, of course, is that half of MEAT's posse is also fucking MEAT's girlfriend, he's just too dumb to figure it out.
128
@119, CP:
"it's nice to try to change society,
but sometimes it gets a little grating when do-good libs and actual leftists and freaky deaky people think that a bunch of talk, talk, talk and modern postures really have changed anything, or that their little circles are The World... "
Wow. What does any of this philosophizing have to do with refraining from beating up your ex's new boyfriend? You've wandered rather spectacularly off topic. Apparently, this all has to do with TEH LIBERALZ for you.
I don't care what your political leanings are. You can't just go around beating up your ex-girlfriend's new dates. Civilized people can manage to control themselves, whether they actually feel jealousy or not. That's all I'm trying to say.
"I tend to give gals a chance to be by themselves right after a breakup, and I'm continually amazed at how long that doesn't last and some prick has swooped in."
I'm not sure if you're being ironic with this paragraph or not. Do you really mean that you are shocked that women make their own dating choices without adhering to your schedule for them? How surprising.
"it's nice to try to change society,
but sometimes it gets a little grating when do-good libs and actual leftists and freaky deaky people think that a bunch of talk, talk, talk and modern postures really have changed anything, or that their little circles are The World... "
Wow. What does any of this philosophizing have to do with refraining from beating up your ex's new boyfriend? You've wandered rather spectacularly off topic. Apparently, this all has to do with TEH LIBERALZ for you.
I don't care what your political leanings are. You can't just go around beating up your ex-girlfriend's new dates. Civilized people can manage to control themselves, whether they actually feel jealousy or not. That's all I'm trying to say.
"I tend to give gals a chance to be by themselves right after a breakup, and I'm continually amazed at how long that doesn't last and some prick has swooped in."
I'm not sure if you're being ironic with this paragraph or not. Do you really mean that you are shocked that women make their own dating choices without adhering to your schedule for them? How surprising.
129
Thank you Dan! My favorite part was "I don't think she's her boyfriend's property now, MEAT, so I certainly don't think she's somehow her boyfriend's property six months after she ends their relationship."
Several people said it's not about the bf and the ex-gf, but if the ex-gf is not "allowed" to date her ex's friend because it is her ex's friend, then clearly these stupid "rules" do extend to the ex-girlfriend. So fuck off guys, let them do what they want. In a few months, no one will care anymore anyway.
Several people said it's not about the bf and the ex-gf, but if the ex-gf is not "allowed" to date her ex's friend because it is her ex's friend, then clearly these stupid "rules" do extend to the ex-girlfriend. So fuck off guys, let them do what they want. In a few months, no one will care anymore anyway.
130
Wow, great discussion!
I'm gay, never really heard of this code in my time in the "straight world", and don't really have a dog in this race (apologies to PETA). But it does sound like this code, even as a wholly unspoken thing among straight guys, really does exist. Interesting!
While the anti-MEAT side is bringing up admittedly valid issues of male possessiveness and aggression, treating women as property, and patriarchy, the pro-MEAT side is arguing for...simply avoiding hurting your buddy's feelings. What the fuck is so "crushed yet again by male oppression" about that?????????
Of course, this is all predicated on the classic (and many would say outdated) model of guys going after women, and not the other way around. Now that we live in a world where a woman who's hot for a guy can "go for it" if she chooses (and more power to her!), maybe this code that has evolutionary roots is itself evolving into a simple across-the-board imperative to avoid unneccesarily hurting your friends' feelings, as sincerely (if poorly) articulated by MEAT. What could be wrong with that?
@ 63 - SpecialBrew, you're very perceptive. You're right in saying that it's generally easier for gay male friends to talk to each other about their feelings, and this kind of scenario, than it is for straight male friends. I can totally understand how this code would evolve as a way for straight guys to avoid even having a conversation about it!
I'm gay, never really heard of this code in my time in the "straight world", and don't really have a dog in this race (apologies to PETA). But it does sound like this code, even as a wholly unspoken thing among straight guys, really does exist. Interesting!
While the anti-MEAT side is bringing up admittedly valid issues of male possessiveness and aggression, treating women as property, and patriarchy, the pro-MEAT side is arguing for...simply avoiding hurting your buddy's feelings. What the fuck is so "crushed yet again by male oppression" about that?????????
Of course, this is all predicated on the classic (and many would say outdated) model of guys going after women, and not the other way around. Now that we live in a world where a woman who's hot for a guy can "go for it" if she chooses (and more power to her!), maybe this code that has evolutionary roots is itself evolving into a simple across-the-board imperative to avoid unneccesarily hurting your friends' feelings, as sincerely (if poorly) articulated by MEAT. What could be wrong with that?
@ 63 - SpecialBrew, you're very perceptive. You're right in saying that it's generally easier for gay male friends to talk to each other about their feelings, and this kind of scenario, than it is for straight male friends. I can totally understand how this code would evolve as a way for straight guys to avoid even having a conversation about it!
131
I can't believe how many jack ass comments there are with regards to this subject so let me break it down for you. Much like the Pirate Code this code is merely a guideline; a guideline on how to navigate the relationship waters when a friend might have some emotions at stake. The one and only thing contained in the this so called code is that you don't trample all over a friend's feelings, that's it, that's all. There's nothing about someone owning a woman, or property, or historical patriarchy's or any of that shit. As someone pointed out it's also relative, how long they had dated is going to affect it (if your friend dated someone for a couple weeks vs. many years), who dumped who is going to affect it (b/c if your friend did the dumping than it's a good bet that he/she is emotionally over the person whereas if your friend got dumped then he/she might still have strong feelings), and the logic behind this is pretty straightforward; relationships can be fleeting while friendships can last a lifetime so why fuck with a friend's emotions if there's literally BILLIONS of other people to date?
And yes, someone can take it too far and become overly possessive but those people would've been overly possessive with or without any sort of "code."
And to those of you think that what you really need to do is just be happy that your ex and your friend are happy I say riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. So if your boyfriend/husband carries on a clandestine relationship with one of your friends and then dumps you for said friend you're telling me your honest reaction would be "well at least they're both happy. I know I'll bake them a cake for which to celebrate this new love!" Because if you remember that's what was going on in the original letter that MEAT commented on, guy was sleeping with a friend's girlfriend behind his friend's back.
And here's the big thing: 99% of the time it's not an issue. Not. At. All.
Lastly; for those of you who, for some reason, think that only straight guys have an issue with this, I've been conducting an informal poll since I read this post yesterday and not one single straight woman I talked to was cool with a friend dating an ex right after a break up, not one gay guy was cool with it (admittedly my sample size of 2 was pretty small), and I was hanging out with some lesbian friends a while back when this very subject came up and they came to a more drastic conclusion than even MEAT did. All of them concluded that you shouldn't date a friend's ex ever under any circumstances even with your friend's ok. But I guess they're just some of those misogynistic, patriarchal lesbians that you're always hearing about.
More...
And yes, someone can take it too far and become overly possessive but those people would've been overly possessive with or without any sort of "code."
And to those of you think that what you really need to do is just be happy that your ex and your friend are happy I say riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. So if your boyfriend/husband carries on a clandestine relationship with one of your friends and then dumps you for said friend you're telling me your honest reaction would be "well at least they're both happy. I know I'll bake them a cake for which to celebrate this new love!" Because if you remember that's what was going on in the original letter that MEAT commented on, guy was sleeping with a friend's girlfriend behind his friend's back.
And here's the big thing: 99% of the time it's not an issue. Not. At. All.
Lastly; for those of you who, for some reason, think that only straight guys have an issue with this, I've been conducting an informal poll since I read this post yesterday and not one single straight woman I talked to was cool with a friend dating an ex right after a break up, not one gay guy was cool with it (admittedly my sample size of 2 was pretty small), and I was hanging out with some lesbian friends a while back when this very subject came up and they came to a more drastic conclusion than even MEAT did. All of them concluded that you shouldn't date a friend's ex ever under any circumstances even with your friend's ok. But I guess they're just some of those misogynistic, patriarchal lesbians that you're always hearing about.
132
@57 I'm sorry you grew up in shitty little town, I'm sorry your ex was a controlling douche bag, I'm sorry your friends were horrible fuckers (I'm indifferent to the fact that you're part French), but the thing is your ex would've been an obsessive shitwaffle even if there hadn't been a "code" of some kind and if what you walk away with from this experience is "I'll date/sleep with whoever I want without regard for a friend's feelings" then you've allowed him to turn YOU into an ass.
@44 (and others; including surprisingly Dan) You seemed to have adopted the "Prejean Perspective." Yes she is an autonomous person who can do what she wants and date who she wants and fuck who she wants but her friends are autonomous also and they're free to react how they want and for most people cheating on a your boyfriend/girlfriend with one of his/her friends is NOT going to be regarded very highly.
BTW, I think that Dan's original advise was spot on. If they don't want to seem like selfish assholes to their friends then they need to cut it off now, she needs to woman-up and break up with her boyfriend, give it a second for the emotions to cool and then start dating.
@44 (and others; including surprisingly Dan) You seemed to have adopted the "Prejean Perspective." Yes she is an autonomous person who can do what she wants and date who she wants and fuck who she wants but her friends are autonomous also and they're free to react how they want and for most people cheating on a your boyfriend/girlfriend with one of his/her friends is NOT going to be regarded very highly.
BTW, I think that Dan's original advise was spot on. If they don't want to seem like selfish assholes to their friends then they need to cut it off now, she needs to woman-up and break up with her boyfriend, give it a second for the emotions to cool and then start dating.
133
You can't change how you feel or how anyone else feels. That goes for crushes, jealousy, anger, forgiveness and so on.
You can't help who you're attracted to and neither can your friends.
Getting to someone first does not put your brand on them forever because people aren't cattle. If you're in a happy relationship now, imagine if you had first met that guy or girl when he or she was going out with a friend. Weeks, months, years after they broke up and you and the ex were hitting it off, would you really be like, nope can't go for it . . . the code.
You can choose how you act on your feelings. You can choose, if you find yourself in position of dating a friend's ex, to approach the situation as respectfully, honestly and tactfully as dictated by the subjectivity of the circumstances and friendship. If one of your friends dates an ex and it's upsetting to you, you can choose to approach the friend and say so. Possessive behavior, however, is inappropriate. It's lowball to steal friend's partners and go behind people's backs and make your friend feel like a fool, it's cruel to stay in a relationship with someone when you're more interested in someone else, and it's psychotic to go on a campaign among mutual friends to shun the new couple or terrorize them with repeated physical threats.
I've seen women pull the same code stuff too and they're just as possessive as the men, though when I've seen men do it, it's usually more direct and aggressive.
You can't help who you're attracted to and neither can your friends.
Getting to someone first does not put your brand on them forever because people aren't cattle. If you're in a happy relationship now, imagine if you had first met that guy or girl when he or she was going out with a friend. Weeks, months, years after they broke up and you and the ex were hitting it off, would you really be like, nope can't go for it . . . the code.
You can choose how you act on your feelings. You can choose, if you find yourself in position of dating a friend's ex, to approach the situation as respectfully, honestly and tactfully as dictated by the subjectivity of the circumstances and friendship. If one of your friends dates an ex and it's upsetting to you, you can choose to approach the friend and say so. Possessive behavior, however, is inappropriate. It's lowball to steal friend's partners and go behind people's backs and make your friend feel like a fool, it's cruel to stay in a relationship with someone when you're more interested in someone else, and it's psychotic to go on a campaign among mutual friends to shun the new couple or terrorize them with repeated physical threats.
I've seen women pull the same code stuff too and they're just as possessive as the men, though when I've seen men do it, it's usually more direct and aggressive.
134
@133 "Weeks, months, years after they broke up and you and the ex were hitting it off, would you really be like, nope can't go for it . . . the code."
If you responded that way then you'd be taking it to excess. Like I pointed out, the "code" is more of a guideline and doesn't really apply after months (or especially years) b/c it also works both ways. If your friend is BEING an unreasonable, possessive ass/bitch then it's not only your right but duty to tell them so b/c you're emotions are just as valid.
If you responded that way then you'd be taking it to excess. Like I pointed out, the "code" is more of a guideline and doesn't really apply after months (or especially years) b/c it also works both ways. If your friend is BEING an unreasonable, possessive ass/bitch then it's not only your right but duty to tell them so b/c you're emotions are just as valid.
135
A strait girl in Madison says:
This "code",along with other "unspoken codes" on sex (abstinance before marriage, only having sex with people within the same religion/race/class; which ALL had consequences socially linked with ones 'honor...see any resemblances?) have been shrugged off before for the better. This specific code I can guarantee you is flouted, and not with the obsessive-possessive consequences this writer implicates.
As a lady with a sex life and an active mind/conscience, I can do what I want and YES I am capable of being respectful towards the people I am emotionally/sexually involved WHILE maintaining sexual independence. Is that hard for guys to swallow?
This "code",along with other "unspoken codes" on sex (abstinance before marriage, only having sex with people within the same religion/race/class; which ALL had consequences socially linked with ones 'honor...see any resemblances?) have been shrugged off before for the better. This specific code I can guarantee you is flouted, and not with the obsessive-possessive consequences this writer implicates.
As a lady with a sex life and an active mind/conscience, I can do what I want and YES I am capable of being respectful towards the people I am emotionally/sexually involved WHILE maintaining sexual independence. Is that hard for guys to swallow?
136
It seems like most of these comments ignore the reality behind the original comment posted to Dan.
This wasn't some guy who happened to bump into his friend's girl AFTER they broke up; a friend who respected the relationship of a friend and his gf until things fell apart and THEN decided, "Hey, it didn't work out for them, maybe I'm a better fit for this girl."
This was, a "friend" who actively engaging in what most would consider "inappropriate" behavior with somebody in a relationship. This "friend" continued to sew seeds of disharmony via flirtings over a period of time and encouraged ideas of cheating on his (admittedly second-tier) friend.
I'm not doubting some people are possessive and have some bizarre and horrid feeling of "ownership" of exes. God knows there are plenty of douches in the world.
However, I think at least in the original scenario again, this isn't some "saint of a friend" who happens to step in once a relationship has fallen apart; this is a guy who has actively played a role in helping it fall apart.
If I had a "friend" who I found to be having sexual/sending juicy texts/calls/interactions HE would consider cheating if he were in a relationship with my girlfriend WHILE I was still dating her, I think I'd have every right to call him a douche/cut him off.
It's not an issue of ownership, it's an issue of trust and respect. What happens if that relationship doesn't work out and I'm now dating somebody else? Should I stay friends and let him risk undermining another relationship (bc that's what true friends apparently should be able to do after all)? NO!
This wasn't some guy who happened to bump into his friend's girl AFTER they broke up; a friend who respected the relationship of a friend and his gf until things fell apart and THEN decided, "Hey, it didn't work out for them, maybe I'm a better fit for this girl."
This was, a "friend" who actively engaging in what most would consider "inappropriate" behavior with somebody in a relationship. This "friend" continued to sew seeds of disharmony via flirtings over a period of time and encouraged ideas of cheating on his (admittedly second-tier) friend.
I'm not doubting some people are possessive and have some bizarre and horrid feeling of "ownership" of exes. God knows there are plenty of douches in the world.
However, I think at least in the original scenario again, this isn't some "saint of a friend" who happens to step in once a relationship has fallen apart; this is a guy who has actively played a role in helping it fall apart.
If I had a "friend" who I found to be having sexual/sending juicy texts/calls/interactions HE would consider cheating if he were in a relationship with my girlfriend WHILE I was still dating her, I think I'd have every right to call him a douche/cut him off.
It's not an issue of ownership, it's an issue of trust and respect. What happens if that relationship doesn't work out and I'm now dating somebody else? Should I stay friends and let him risk undermining another relationship (bc that's what true friends apparently should be able to do after all)? NO!
137
Wait, if they're an ex, who cares who they're having sex with? Do people really stay that emotionally involved?
138
What a bunch of crap. The friend already "broke the code" by sleeping with the guy's girl, it's just that no one else in their group knows about it. How about people get to choose which relationships they value more, the "bros" or the "hos", on an individual basis. The friend already made the choice. Why give up the girl for some barely-there friendship? And if the friend is concerned his new girl will cheat on him like she cheated on her bf, maybe they should consider the wonderful world of open relationships, where nobody owns anyone else and honesty helps instead of hurts.
139
"As a lady with a sex life and an active mind/conscience, I can do what I want and YES I am capable of being respectful towards the people I am emotionally/sexually involved WHILE maintaining sexual independence. Is that hard for guys to swallow?"
So, to get away from your Helen Reddy impersonation for a moment, are you saying this gal and this guy were okay in having sex, but not bothering to inform the clueless boyfriend that sex with third parties was on the relationship menu?
Are you saying that you would do that too--sleep with others without telling your significant other that was an option (for you, at least)? Because if so, yeah, that is kind of hard to swallow. Selfish bullshit behavior usually is.
So, to get away from your Helen Reddy impersonation for a moment, are you saying this gal and this guy were okay in having sex, but not bothering to inform the clueless boyfriend that sex with third parties was on the relationship menu?
Are you saying that you would do that too--sleep with others without telling your significant other that was an option (for you, at least)? Because if so, yeah, that is kind of hard to swallow. Selfish bullshit behavior usually is.
140
OK, I just went out and watched The Magnificent Seven, Sands of Iwo Jima, Fight Club, and something with zombies in it, I forget the name. There was no mention of this Alleged Code anywhere in them. So clearly, it isn't all that hegemonic among putative hetero males. Pretty definitive, I'd say.
There was a time when I couldn't imagine how comic books could not be important to someone. Finding out there was no Santa Claus was nothing, compared to losing that meme. Boys, there's no code. That's just the hormones talking.
There was a time when I couldn't imagine how comic books could not be important to someone. Finding out there was no Santa Claus was nothing, compared to losing that meme. Boys, there's no code. That's just the hormones talking.
141
Anyone whose friends would beat them up or shun them for the "crime" of dating their exes (and only that; cheating with them beforehand, as in the original letter, of course changes things), needs to get new and better friends, because they're hanging out with douches who deserve neither friends nor relationships until they grow the fuck up.
Yes, "unspoken codes" and "man rules" exist. In abundance. They are, however, universally stupid, immature, and written and enforced by the douchiest morons ever to call themselves men.
This "code," in particular, not only denies the ex personal autonomy, it ignores the feelings of the friend who wants to date the ex. Two of the three people involved are treated like garbage because one guy can't get his shit together about acting like an adult.
To hell with all these "codes" and the "unwritten rule" nonsense. Here's a written rule: don't be a douche. Be decent to your friends AND your exes, and remember that their feelings are equal to yours. There's nothing saying friends can't give each other some space and not hang out together for a while if one is uncomfortable with the other's relationship.
Oh, and don't invoke "bros before hoes." Ever. The people who use that idiotic phrase are the ones who deserve a beating.
Yes, "unspoken codes" and "man rules" exist. In abundance. They are, however, universally stupid, immature, and written and enforced by the douchiest morons ever to call themselves men.
This "code," in particular, not only denies the ex personal autonomy, it ignores the feelings of the friend who wants to date the ex. Two of the three people involved are treated like garbage because one guy can't get his shit together about acting like an adult.
To hell with all these "codes" and the "unwritten rule" nonsense. Here's a written rule: don't be a douche. Be decent to your friends AND your exes, and remember that their feelings are equal to yours. There's nothing saying friends can't give each other some space and not hang out together for a while if one is uncomfortable with the other's relationship.
Oh, and don't invoke "bros before hoes." Ever. The people who use that idiotic phrase are the ones who deserve a beating.
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