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News & ArtsTuesday, September 22, 2009
Savage Love Savage Love Letter of the Day
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 4:19 PM
I'm in need of relationship advice from a disinterested third-party, and since I can't afford a therapist I'm hoping you can help! I've been dating the same guy off and on for about a year and half. All of the "offs" were my doing, because I never felt that he was being completely honest and open with me. Actually the last breakup was due to his making out with my friend at a bar (he says she kissed him), and then my finding out that he was also sleeping with someone else off-and-on who didn't know about me.So why am I even bothering you're probably thinking? Recently he has turned over a new leaf of sorts, and we both want to make it work. We truly enjoy each others' company. The problem for me is that he won't admit to cheating with the other woman, which makes it really hard for me to trust him. I find myself acting like a crazy, obsessive girlfriend, questioning every excuse for why he doesn't return my call right away or invite me everywhere he goes. He gets defensive when I try to talk to him about it most of the time, and says that I've changed (which I have of course). Plus we're both starting graduate programs at opposite ends of our city, where we'll have our own social groups.
Am I crazy to be paranoid now about his behavior? Shouldn't he be explaining and apologizing instead of making me feel like a stalker girlfriend?
Need Advice Desperately
My answer after the jump...
Let's back way the hell up, NAD.
Assuming it's all true—the shit he admits to is true and the shit he doesn't—would you stay with him if he cheated on you again? And again and again and again? If the answer to that question is "yes"—or even "maybe," or "I'm not sure," or "I don't know"—the quickest route to inner peace may be accepting the fact that you're in love with someone who isn't very good at monogamy now and may never be any good at it.
If you can adjust your expectations—if you no longer expect him to be faithful in the usual/physical sense—maybe you can relax and be content in this relationship. If you can't, well, are you prepared to be a paranoid stalker girlfriend/wife for the rest of your life? No?
Then end it.
1
You're right Dan. I just can't figure out why women think they can change a man into something he isn't. He isn't faithful. He never will be. And don't think all you need to do is get pregnant or marry him or whatever and he will change. He won't. Accept him like he is or move on.
3
I just can't figure out why men think they can change a woman into something she isn't. She insists on monogamy. She always will. And don't think all you need to do is get her pregnant or marry her or whatever and she will change. She won't. Accept her like she is and quit cheating on her, or move on.
4
@3 That would be apt if he were the frustrated, tormented one in the relationship. He's having his cake and eating it too, and all the price he has to pay for it is her (potential) nagging, while she needs to deal with his infidelity.
5
People can change, but in this case it doesn't sound like the guy needs to - or at least not like he's the only one who needs to. NAD sounds pretty insecure, brittle, tweaky, and un-self-aware. The occasion of starting different grad programs sounds like a perfect opportunity for these two to break up and then grow up a bit as individuals.
8
@2, 3, 4
Did it not strike y'all that this woman sounds pretty paranoid, and we have only her word that he ever cheated at all?
I've never cheated in my life, but the last time I was in a relationship with a cheater, there was a long period where she'd constantly accuse me of plotting to cheat or contemplating leaving her.
I think NAD needs to figure out her own motivations here. I can't help but wonder if she's looking for an excuse to fool around a little herself once she has that new peer group on the other side of town, whether she knows she is or not.
Did it not strike y'all that this woman sounds pretty paranoid, and we have only her word that he ever cheated at all?
I've never cheated in my life, but the last time I was in a relationship with a cheater, there was a long period where she'd constantly accuse me of plotting to cheat or contemplating leaving her.
I think NAD needs to figure out her own motivations here. I can't help but wonder if she's looking for an excuse to fool around a little herself once she has that new peer group on the other side of town, whether she knows she is or not.
10
Dating in an on and off fashion doesn't mean monogamy. At some point you have that conversation and hash that part out. She never says "we never defined our relationship..and then I caught him...".
I'm pretty sure this letter is omitting some key details. I think Dan's advice would be drastically different if she told the whole truth.
I'm pretty sure this letter is omitting some key details. I think Dan's advice would be drastically different if she told the whole truth.
11
@1 and @3 are both right, but balderdash is probably most insightful for pointing out she sounds like someone way too paranoid.
Is it because of her past? Especially with him? Or her present and how he makes her paranoid?
Doesn't matter.
They should both dump each others' asses. Even if he is getting action on the side and she's lying to herself that he isn't.
Is it because of her past? Especially with him? Or her present and how he makes her paranoid?
Doesn't matter.
They should both dump each others' asses. Even if he is getting action on the side and she's lying to herself that he isn't.
12
They should get married.
I know, I know, he sounds like a complete scumbag, and she is at the least kind of pathetic for continuously going back to him and believing he could turn over a new leaf. And he keeps going back to her, despite being disinterested and being accused of cheating.
He seems to want monogamy but practices polygamy, she is (possibly rightfully) paranoid and a shlepp. They're perfect for each other, because they are so very bad for everyone else.
If they get married, they're a mostly contained unit. Their stupid little problems and dramas are their own (and anyone who they sleep with during off periods). But, if they are at all even slightly successful, this keeps both of them out of the dating scene and into the skanky cheating scene.
I know, I know, he sounds like a complete scumbag, and she is at the least kind of pathetic for continuously going back to him and believing he could turn over a new leaf. And he keeps going back to her, despite being disinterested and being accused of cheating.
He seems to want monogamy but practices polygamy, she is (possibly rightfully) paranoid and a shlepp. They're perfect for each other, because they are so very bad for everyone else.
If they get married, they're a mostly contained unit. Their stupid little problems and dramas are their own (and anyone who they sleep with during off periods). But, if they are at all even slightly successful, this keeps both of them out of the dating scene and into the skanky cheating scene.
14
The dude here sounds more than a little abusive - the letter writer mentions absolutely no reason why she wants to make this work, other than "we enjoy spending time together", so the fact that she keeps drifting back to him sounds pretty shady.
15
I agree with #10. The phrase "dating off and on" does not describe an exclusive monogamous relationship UNLESS they both agreed to that in the beginning.
16
She's not even crazy stalker girlfriend. She's crazy stalker occasional-hook-up who also needs to get new friends if they're poaching her men like that.
17
SHE may be defining monogamy different than HE is.
If they have dated on and off, then he may have felt perfectly justified in seeing other women during the 'off' periods with NAD. If he slept around with other women during the 'off' periods, then he may sincerely believe that he has not cheated on NAD, and has done nothing wrong (and I'd mostly agree with him).
He's really only cheating if he slept with other women at the same time as he was dating NAD, and they had agreed to some sort of exclusivity.
NAD doesn't say when he was with other women. Nor does she say they agreed to date each other exclusively. Nor does she say what agreement, if any, they had during their 'off' periods. These details matter. So I'm not entirely sure he has done anything wrong at all here.
If they have dated on and off, then he may have felt perfectly justified in seeing other women during the 'off' periods with NAD. If he slept around with other women during the 'off' periods, then he may sincerely believe that he has not cheated on NAD, and has done nothing wrong (and I'd mostly agree with him).
He's really only cheating if he slept with other women at the same time as he was dating NAD, and they had agreed to some sort of exclusivity.
NAD doesn't say when he was with other women. Nor does she say they agreed to date each other exclusively. Nor does she say what agreement, if any, they had during their 'off' periods. These details matter. So I'm not entirely sure he has done anything wrong at all here.
18
I want to commend the letter writer on the correct use of "disinterested" (which @6, @12 got wrong). Clearly it takes a grad student to get it right, because people only learn that word for the GRE, and then start using it wrong again a year later out of peer pressure.
19
@17: She said that the "off" periods were due to his cheating. I assume that means he cheated while they were "on".
22
This sounds like a job for Carolyn Hax. No offense or anything to Dan, but this is just one of those, "You want X, he offers Y, so why are you wasting your time?" situations, and while Dan's advice is perfectly correct, it's just what we'd see in the Post and doesn't give me my Savage Love fix.
24
Turning over a new leaf (of sorts) is the oldest line in the book. He'll never change unless women actually stop being interested in him because of his behavior and you dump him. If he was really turning over a new leaf he would probably recognize that he has to earn your trust after his past behavior, and be transparent for a while. He's not though, he's just saying he's changed and then giving you a lot of shit. You keep working it out with him because you're needy but you hate his behavior. This is just emotional immaturity on both your parts that you'll eventually grow out of. This relationship cannot die fast enough.
26
@ 25: I thought that was going to be the entirety of the answer before I click on the jump.
It should have been anyway.
It should have been anyway.
30
People will treat you as poorly as you allow them to. If you demand respect and monogamy and openness and honesty, you will either get them, or he will move on. It's pretty straightforward. But you have to first value yourself in order to demand those things.
I don't generally abide by "once a cheater, always a cheater," but if you KNOW he cheats and you LET him come back, you are LETTING him cheat, so he has nothing to deter him. He may not even consider it cheating, because you've clearly given him your blessing.
I spent five years with someone I wasn't sure I totally trusted, and if I could do it over, it would've ended a lot sooner. If you hate who you are, then make some changes.
I don't generally abide by "once a cheater, always a cheater," but if you KNOW he cheats and you LET him come back, you are LETTING him cheat, so he has nothing to deter him. He may not even consider it cheating, because you've clearly given him your blessing.
I spent five years with someone I wasn't sure I totally trusted, and if I could do it over, it would've ended a lot sooner. If you hate who you are, then make some changes.
31
See, this is why people need to establish whether or not they want to be monogamous BEFORE the fact. If he'd brought up the idea of opening things up a little, it wouldn't be such a giant betrayal when he does sleep with a couple other people. He wouldn't look so much like the villain who's toying with her.
Most (urban, younger) people will be fine with branching out if there isn't so much sneaking around and lying about it.
Most (urban, younger) people will be fine with branching out if there isn't so much sneaking around and lying about it.
32
You clearly can't stand being cheated on or the *thought* of being cheated on and he can't agree with you on what even constitutes cheating. You're dooming yourselves for a long haul of accusations and resentment.
So yeah, move on. Like someone mentioned, this is a perfect time to split, what with the fact you'll have different social circles and basically spending less time with each other.
So yeah, move on. Like someone mentioned, this is a perfect time to split, what with the fact you'll have different social circles and basically spending less time with each other.
33
If they never had the "are we seeing each other people, or are we exclusive" conversation, then assumptions are being made on both sides. I don't understand why people find it so hard to have those kinds of discussions with people they're sleeping with. Here's a clue: if you can't talk to them honestly about things like this, you don't have a relationship. You have a fuckbuddy.
If the "rules" were never agreed to on both sides, then they're not being broken. Agreements need to be pretty explicit. Otherwise, you get one party assuming they're just fuckbuddies and the other assuming they're joined at the hip.
If the "rules" were never agreed to on both sides, then they're not being broken. Agreements need to be pretty explicit. Otherwise, you get one party assuming they're just fuckbuddies and the other assuming they're joined at the hip.
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