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Tuesday, September 22, 2009

Charlie Sheen's Message to Barack Obama

Posted by on Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 1:31 PM

After the onslaught of the Birthers, the Truthers seem like a fond, dumb memory, and now that fond, dumb memory is fondly, dumbly poking its dumb head back into the interyoutubes. Two and a Half Men star Charlie Sheen is demanding audience with Barack Obama. He wants a reinvestigation of 9/11. His direct address to the president begins at 4:21 in the below video.

He also demands that the American Sheeple wake up. So, er, wake up sheeple! Charlie Sheen demands it.

 

Comments (112) RSS

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1
His best work since Hot Shots: Part Deux
Posted by dwight moody on September 22, 2009 at 1:34 PM
heywhatsit!? 2
I will absolutely NOT watch that.
Posted by heywhatsit!? on September 22, 2009 at 1:42 PM
Dougsf 3
I'm glad someone of his caliber is finally focused on such an engrossing issue.
Posted by Dougsf on September 22, 2009 at 1:43 PM
meowmeowkitty 4
My eyes are throbbing just thinking about watching it. I don't think I can.
Posted by meowmeowkitty on September 22, 2009 at 1:44 PM
Fnarf 5
Is Charlie Sheen being paid by the Republicans to try and discredit Obama? So they can have someone to point to when we complain about the birthers?
Posted by Fnarf http://www.facebook.com/fnarf on September 22, 2009 at 1:48 PM
Fifty-Two-Eighty 6
Right. Because everybody takes Charlie Sheen seriously, don'tcha know.
Posted by Fifty-Two-Eighty http://www.nra.org on September 22, 2009 at 1:51 PM
raindrop 7
@5: No, Republicans have no need to be so Machiavellian. They can just sit back and watch things unravel.
Posted by raindrop on September 22, 2009 at 1:52 PM
8
Oh great, Charlie Sheen is in the depths of another gigantic cocaine binge. I am sure the families of 9/11 victims are proud to have this douchenozzle appoint himself as their representative.
Posted by Reg on September 22, 2009 at 1:56 PM
giffy 9
I care as much about what people on the tv have to say about things as I do the person who bags my groceries. Entitled to an opinion sure, but I could really give a fuck what it is.
Posted by giffy on September 22, 2009 at 1:58 PM
Fnarf 10
I don't think you fucking understand, man. His DAD played the PRESIDENT, you know.
Posted by Fnarf http://www.facebook.com/fnarf on September 22, 2009 at 2:05 PM
T 11
"I loved you in Wall Street."
Posted by T on September 22, 2009 at 2:07 PM
Heather 12
http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Je…

http://www.stopjenny.com/

Maybe Charlie Sheen and Jenny McCarthy can go on tour to promote stupidity.
Posted by Heather on September 22, 2009 at 2:13 PM
Scholar of violence 13
Pish posh. Who cares one tit about this pickle brained whore monger's opinion? Serious thinkers want to know what Sheen's televison co-star, and Emmy award winner, John Cryer has to say?
Posted by Scholar of violence on September 22, 2009 at 2:15 PM
14
@12 - I would buy a ticket to watch that trainwreck.
Posted by Sheryl on September 22, 2009 at 2:17 PM
Scholar of violence 15
Er, add a second "i" just after the "s" in "television" please.
Posted by Scholar of violence on September 22, 2009 at 2:17 PM
Vince 16
Another sad case of Hollywood meltdown.
Posted by Vince on September 22, 2009 at 2:24 PM
Trouble 17
I'm pretty sure most of the families don't want that douchebag "representing" them.
Posted by Trouble on September 22, 2009 at 2:25 PM
Fnarf 18
@13: Jon Cryer is a right-winger. McCain-Palin supporter.
Posted by Fnarf http://www.facebook.com/fnarf on September 22, 2009 at 2:30 PM
Will in Seattle 19
I heard a rumor that Saudi Arabia attacked us on 9-11.

And is still funding and providing most of the volunteers and texts filled with religious hatred towards America to this day.

Hmmm.
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on September 22, 2009 at 2:36 PM
lark 20
Charlie Sheen, put down the bong and come back to reality.
Posted by lark on September 22, 2009 at 2:37 PM
michael strangeways 21
worst wig, EVUH!!!

he's just pissed that Jon Cryer has an Emmy and he doesn't...
Posted by michael strangeways http://www.seattlegayscene.com/ on September 22, 2009 at 2:38 PM
22
People who think the government was capable of a conspiracy of this scale have usually never managed more people than a single shift at Kinkos. Morons.
Posted by Billy Boy on September 22, 2009 at 2:38 PM
23
Truthers meet birthers.

Birthers meet truthers.

Now back to your shitty jobs where paranoia and ignorance fester in the darkness.
Posted by Billy Boy on September 22, 2009 at 2:40 PM
Will in Seattle 24
Actually, his dad is going to be in a new version of Wall Street, as Gordon Gecko, set during the last couple of years.

(source - Vanity Fair)
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on September 22, 2009 at 2:47 PM
Scholar of violence 25
Dear god!!! And they let him work in Hollywood? Next you'll tell me that Conchata Ferrell is a wingnut too!!! Say it ain't so.
Posted by Scholar of violence on September 22, 2009 at 2:50 PM
26
i dont care what the fuck your agenda is- left, right, moderate, bat-shit crazy... you don't use your celebrity status (which is obviously debatable in this case) to "demand an audience with the president." period.
Posted by happy renter on September 22, 2009 at 2:52 PM
27
Don't listen to Charlie Sheen. Listen to the chair and vice chair of the 9/11 Commission, who say their report was incomplete and flawed, and that they were deliberately misled. Is anyone else interested in achieving justice?

On September 12, 2007, The Guardian published this piece by Peter Tatchell:

Six years after 9/11, the American public have still not been provided with a full and truthful account of the single greatest terror attack in US history.

What they got was a turkey. The 9/11 Commission was hamstrung by official obstruction. It never managed to ascertain the whole truth of what happened on September 11 2001.

The chair and vice chair of the 9/11 Commission, respectively Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton, assert in their book, Without Precedent, that they were "set up to fail" and were starved of funds to do a proper investigation. They also confirm that they were denied access to the truth and misled by senior officials in the Pentagon and the federal aviation authority; and that this obstruction and deception led them to contemplate slapping officials with criminal charges.

Despite the many public statements by 9/11 commissioners and staff members acknowledging they were repeatedly lied to, not a single person has ever been charged, tried, or even reprimanded, for lying to the 9/11 Commission.

From the outset, the commission seemed to be hobbled. It did not start work until over a year after the attacks. Even then, its terms of reference were suspiciously narrow, its powers of investigation curiously limited and its time-frame for producing a report unhelpfully short - barely a year to sift through millions of pages of evidence and to interview hundreds of key witnesses.

The final report did not examine key evidence, and neglected serious anomalies in the various accounts of what happened. The commissioners admit their report was incomplete and flawed, and that many questions about the terror attacks remain unanswered. Nevertheless, the 9/11 Commission was swiftly closed down on August 21 2004.

I do not believe in conspiracy theories. I prefer rigorous, evidence-based analysis that sifts through the known facts and utilises expert opinion to draw conclusions that stand up to critical scrutiny. In other words, I believe in everything the 9/11 Commission was not.

The failings of the official investigation have fuelled too many half-baked conspiracy theories. Some of the 9/11 "truth" groups promote speculative hypotheses, ignore innocent explanations, cite non-expert sources and jump to conclusions that are not proven by the known facts. They convert mere coincidence and circumstantial evidence into cast-iron proof. This is no way to debunk the obfuscations and evasions of the 9/11 report.

But even amid the hype, some of these 9/11 groups raise valid and important questions that were never even considered, let alone answered, by the official investigation. The American public has not been told the complete truth about the events of that fateful autumn morning six years ago.

What happened on 9/11 is fundamentally important in its own right. But equally important is the way the 9/11 cover-up signifies an absence of democratic, transparent and accountable government. Establishing the truth is, in part, about restoring honesty, trust and confidence in American politics.

There are dozens of 9/11 "truth" websites and campaign groups. I cannot vouch for the veracity or credibility of any of them. But what I can say is that as well as making plenty of seemingly outrageous claims; a few of them raise legitimate questions that demand answers.

Four of these well known "tell the truth" 9/11 websites are:

1) Scholars for 9/11 Truth, which includes academics and intellectuals from many disciplines.

2) 250+ 9/11 'Smoking Guns' a website that cites over 250 pieces of evidence that allegedly contradict, or were omitted from, the 9/11 Commission report.

3) The 911 Truth Campaign that, as well as offering its own evidence and theories, includes links to more than 20 similar websites.

4) Patriots Question 9/11, perhaps the most plausible array of distinguished US citizens who question the official account of 9/11, including General Wesley Clark, former Nato commander in Europe, and seven members and staffers of the official 9/11 Commission, including the chair and vice chair. In all, this website documents the doubts of 110+ senior military, intelligence service, law enforcement and government officials; 200+ engineers and architects; 50+ pilots and aviation professionals; 150+ professors; 90+ entertainment and media people; and 190+ 9/11 survivors and family members. Although this is an impressive roll call, it doesn't necessarily mean that these expert professionals are right. Nevertheless, their scepticism of the official version of events is reason to pause and reflect.

More and more US citizens are critical of the official account. The respected Zogby polling organisation last week found that 51% of Americans want Congress to probe President Bush and Vice-President Cheney regarding the truth about the 9/11 attacks; 67% are also critical of the 9/11 Commission for not investigating the bizarre, unexplained collapse of the 47-storey World Trade Centre building 7 (WTC7). This building was not hit by any planes. Unlike WTC3, which was badly damaged by falling debris from the Twin Towers but which remained standing, WTC7 suffered minor damage but suddenly collapsed in a neat pile, as happens in a controlled demolition.

In a 2006 interview with anchorman Evan Soloman of CBC's Sunday programme, the vice chair of the 9/11 Commission, Lee Hamilton, was reminded that the commission report failed to even mention the collapse of WTC7 or the suspicious hurried removal of the building debris from the site - before there could be a proper forensic investigation of what was a crime scene. Hamilton could only offer the lame excuse that the commissioners did not have "unlimited time" and could not be expected to answer "every question" the public asks.

There are many, many more strange unexplained facts concerning the events of 9/11. You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to be puzzled and want an explanation, or to be sceptical concerning the official version of events.

Six years on from those terrible events, the survivors, and the friends and families of those who died, deserve to know the truth. Is honesty and transparency concerning 9/11 too much to ask of the president and Congress?

What is needed is a new and truly independent commission of inquiry to sort coincidence and conjecture from fact, and to provide answers to the unsolved anomalies in the evidence available concerning the attacks on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon. Unlike the often-stymied first investigation, this new commission should be granted wide-ranging subpoena powers and unfettered access to government files and officials. George Bush should be called to testify, without his minders at hand to brief and prompt him. America - and the world - has a right to know the truth.


More...
Posted by Phil M http://twitter.com/pmocek on September 22, 2009 at 2:53 PM
JF 28
@1 I disagree. I prefer the first Hot Shots.

Also, what would happen if a birther and a truther fucked?
Posted by JF on September 22, 2009 at 3:11 PM
Renton Mike 29
They did a good job with that video. Of almost putting me to sleep.
Posted by Renton Mike on September 22, 2009 at 3:14 PM
Akbar Fazil 30
@24 Will,

You are incorrect.

Michael Douglas is returning in his role of Gordon Gekko in Wall Street 2: Money Never Sleeps (worst. sequel. title. ever.)

Charlie is making a cameo as his character from the first one.
Posted by Akbar Fazil on September 22, 2009 at 3:21 PM
Jason Josephes 31
Maybe all of that hooker syphilis has finally caught up with him and is wreaking havoc on his tiny brain.
Posted by Jason Josephes http://www.myspace.com/bluemoonseattle on September 22, 2009 at 3:37 PM
raindrop 32
@18: And why is that pertinent?
Posted by raindrop on September 22, 2009 at 3:50 PM
Will in Seattle 33
@30 - right, his dad, exactly what I said. Try reading the words.
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on September 22, 2009 at 3:53 PM
34
@27. That's not an article, it's commentary, in the Guardian's "Comment is free" section. Being able to separate journalism from commentary/rantings might be a good way to convince people you can also separate fact from fiction.

So back you your computer and Linux fantasies.
Posted by Billy Boy on September 22, 2009 at 3:58 PM
35
Bush's guys did the proper investigation of 9/11. They found nothing abnormal. It was the guy in the cave that we still can't find.
Why is that so hard for you weirdo's to believe?
Posted by montgomery sun on September 22, 2009 at 4:03 PM
Rotten666 36
@33 you can't be serious.
Posted by Rotten666 on September 22, 2009 at 4:08 PM
Fnarf 37
@36, Will is saying that Michael Douglas is Charlie Sheen's dad. Why can't you see that? Try reading the words.
Posted by Fnarf http://www.facebook.com/fnarf on September 22, 2009 at 4:12 PM
Will in Seattle 38
Part of the entire movie is the debate over who his father is.

is it his biological father?

or his father in the business sense.

The movie is about a man defining himself - at first, like a fallen angel, he rejects God (the bio father) for Satan (the business father) - then he realizes that Man must come to terms with his humanity and accepts his actual father for who he is, not the false worship of Mannon.

Geesh, don't you guys ever watch plays or get out?
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on September 22, 2009 at 4:20 PM
Uriel-238 39
I can't take Charlie Sheen seriously, no matter how hard I try.

And I'm a self proclaimed LIHOPer.

To be sure, 9/11 was at very least on the wishlist of the Project for the New American Century (PDF, see page 63), The process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor. Christmas came early for these guys in 2001. Three month's early.

The JFK hit remains pinned on Oswald, even though we even have a deathbed confession of the guy who set it up. But the evidence is so obfuscated that the particulars of what exactly happened (even if it matches the single bullet theory) are lost to obfuscation. 9/11 is the JFK of the new generation, and I can expect to go to my grave without knowing the truth.
Posted by Uriel-238 on September 22, 2009 at 6:25 PM
40
There's nothing "dumb" about questioning the biggest event of this century when we still have not been given a proper, extensive and conclusive investigation. Your article is "dumb" because it fails to deal with any of the pertinent questions Mr Sheen raises. You can attack his character all you want but he clearly understands the events of 9/11 and has researched them thoroughly. It is obvious that you have not.

The 9/11 Truth movement is huge and constantly expanding. It's not some lunatic fringe group of people. It is a vast range of people with a vast range of opinions but a shared desire for real answers to the questions of 9/11.

Mr Sheen is a hero for putting his reputation on the line to bring more attention to this vital issue that affects all of our lives to this day. You are a coward for failing to address the issues Mr Sheen raises. You are a coward and a hack journalist for simply attacking his character.
Posted by YouAreTheGreaterFool on September 22, 2009 at 6:26 PM
41
"The 9/11 Truth movement is huge and constantly expanding. It's not some lunatic fringe group of people. "

Spoken like your Birther brethren.....
Posted by Ballard Man on September 22, 2009 at 6:39 PM
Akbar Fazil 42
@Will,

Good lord you are thick sometimes.

Your original statement may have been a noble attempt at being funny about Charlie Sheen's character in Wall Street but it fell very short of the mark.

Please try again asshole.
Posted by Akbar Fazil on September 22, 2009 at 6:44 PM
43
"The 9/11 Truth movement is huge and constantly expanding"

funny how groups of paranoids always assume that everyone is simultaneously against them and for them. So tell us birthers....sorry, 'truthers', how did they blow up these buildings and manage to keep everyones' mouths shut? Last time I was at the DMV I saw plenty of government workers capable of this!
Posted by Billy Boy on September 22, 2009 at 6:55 PM
44
@34: Billy Boy wrote: "That's not an article, it's commentary, in the Guardian's "Comment is free" section. Being able to separate journalism from commentary/rantings might be a good way to convince people you can also separate fact from fiction."

I didn't call it an article, and it wouldn't matter if I did. There is clearly opinion expressed, and there are factual assertions made. Lots of sources -- often from people with first-hand knowledge -- are provided.

Johnny, which of Tatchell's assertions do you dispute and with which of his opinions do you disagree? Can you please use your implied ability to separate fact from fiction and cite any fiction you saw in what I quoted?
Posted by Phil M http://twitter.com/pmocek on September 22, 2009 at 7:01 PM
45
Fnarf, any suggestion that the Bush administration's stories about 9/11 might be inaccurate used to really get your hackles up here on Slog. I haven't seen you say a word about it since Kean and Hamilton published that they were lied to and that their report was incomplete and flawed. Do you have anything to say about the 9/11 Commision's chair's and vice-chair's comments? Do you still think it's a settled matter?

Do you think we should complete a thorough investigation -- with, you know, subpoenas, sworn testimony, consequences for lying, stuff like that -- or just stick with what we have and not sweat the details?
Posted by Phil M http://twitter.com/pmocek on September 22, 2009 at 7:09 PM
46
"Can you please use your implied ability to separate fact from fiction and cite any fiction you saw in what I quoted?"

Are you kidding? Anyone with any common sense knows you cannot get the hundreds of people, if not thousands, needed to carry off an operation like this and have them keep it silent. You're talking about about a government that couldn't get water to the Superdome in NOLA but was able to smuggled thousands of pounds of explosives into the WTC, wire them up and no one noticed. A government that didn't have a post war plan for Iraq, got WMDs wrong. But plan a huge operation like this? No problem. If you've ever managed an office with more than 2 people you'd know it was impossible for this to be an inside job.

Have fun being a birther though. They are convinced too.
Posted by Billy Boy on September 22, 2009 at 7:59 PM
47
"Can you please use your implied ability to separate fact from fiction and cite any fiction you saw in what I quoted?"

your willingness to invest hours in this is not a sign of higher intelligence. It's a sign of a mental pathology. Look at your cohorts the Birthers.
Posted by Day Jones on September 22, 2009 at 8:08 PM
48
It's a bit sad that most of the comments on this slog focus on snide, hipsteresque little rips on Charlie Sheen. There are some very disturbing unanswered questions about the details of the attacks on that day. Of course, reading up on the details is not as easy or as funny as making fun of a 90s B movie actor, so I guess this reasonable inquiry will simply be shouted down by snide Seattle know-it-alls who spend their whole day quipping to each other on the innerwebs.

Posted by PaulS on September 22, 2009 at 8:35 PM
49
" this reasonable inquiry "

I agree, why won't he simply produce the birth certificate?
Posted by Freddie's NutS on September 22, 2009 at 8:58 PM
50
I have yet to hear or read a good explanation for how the towers came down in pancake-like fashion at 2/3rds free-fall speed withOUT the use of explosives. Tell me how it could be done with jet fuel for the first time in history and in three separate buildings on the same day and I'll consider another explanation. So far, it seems the only people who have the best explanation for this are the ones referred to as "truthers". It's not about who's speaking for them it's about the "truth", g$#d@#@#$@it!
Posted by truthmonger on September 22, 2009 at 9:10 PM
51
@27 Phil,

Of course we won't listen to him, Peter Tatchell, The Guardian, or anyone as Dumb as Charlie Sheen.
Posted by proton on September 22, 2009 at 9:21 PM
52
@27 Phil,

Of course we won't listen to him, Peter Tatchell, The Guardian, or anyone as Dumb as Charlie Sheen.
Posted by proton on September 22, 2009 at 9:24 PM
53
@50

Mass, force, momentum. Know the difference. They were built to stand there, each section built to hold up all the floors above them, and to sway in the wind. Minor loads compared to the forces involved in 9/11.

@22
You know.... Kinko's has cells, I mean, stores, in every major city... and they work around the clock... they never turn off their lights, as if they want us to think they have nothing to hide... hmm.... and now they're allied with FedEx, which also operates all day long across the nation... AND HAS A FLEET OF PLANES!!! We must be vigilant. Plus, their name has "kink" in it, so they're probaby part of the radical homersexhul agenda... wheels within wheels, maaan!
Posted by CP on September 22, 2009 at 9:51 PM
54
@46: Billy Boy, that's a straw man. I neither wrote nor quoted anything about numbers of people or their ability to keep things quiet.

Would you care to dispute any of the assertions made by Peter Tatchell in the http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/…">piece I quoted? What, if any, opinions he expressed do you disagree with? You said that I can't tell fact from fiction, but you've yet to demonstrate that you can read, much less tell us which parts of what you read were fact and which were fiction.

@47: Day Jones, who said anything about me investing hours? I want there to be a thorough and impartial investigation. I'm not the person for that job. The 9/11 commissioners say they their report was incomplete. Are you satisfied with that incomplete report?

@51: Proton, I'm not asking or suggesting that you listen to any of them. I'm suggesting that you listen to the chair and vice-chair of the 9/11 Commission, who say that their report was incomplete and flawed, and that they were repeatedly lied to during the investigation.
Posted by Phil M http://twitter.com/pmocek on September 22, 2009 at 9:53 PM
Uriel-238 55
I have to admit, Martin Sheen did a lot of work on stinkers between Apocalypse Now and The West Wing, and I know it's shallow as my penchant for boobs, but it would have been hard to respect Martin as a serious activist if the last thing I saw him in was Spawn.

I think the 9/11 sitch is a serious issue, and I'd actually feel much safer if I knew it was assisted by moles on the inside, in contrast to a scenario where religious fanatic aliens to US culture completely pwned us.
Posted by Uriel-238 on September 22, 2009 at 11:01 PM
i'm pro-science and i vote 56
So I watch this video (if it threatens any of you, you are pussies) and well, it highlights lots of things inconsistent with the "official" conspiracy theory. Even if only %10 of this is true, WE deserve a new, honest, consistent investigation. Just in case. It is shocking, how closed-minded this country is. As if another, real investigation would hurt. If anyone else was involved beyond the 19 hijackers, al Qaida, bin Laden, then they are going to get away with the worst terrorist attack of all time because America is full of cowards who can't handle the mere possibility that the "official story" is mistakenly incomplete, or even a total lie.

Celebrities get bashed whenever they push for a cause. For supposedly being full of themselves. When really, what they're probably thinking is, hey if I get lots of attention just because I'm the actor I am, ridiculous or not, I'll use that advantage for something I personally believe is good. This country is known as the land of opportunity. If anyone of us are faced with an opportunity most people don't have, we're likely to take it. Because we can. Which does not exactly equate to arrogance. Bashing celebrities for backing causes is tiresome. It is not their fault that we pay all this attention to them, it is our fault, right or wrong.

What IS arrogant is suggesting that %54 of the world is off its rocker and and that their perspectives on 9/11 do not deserve any consideration whatsoever.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_opinio…
Posted by i'm pro-science and i vote http://home.comcast.net/~theyellowdog/joerepublican.htm on September 22, 2009 at 11:34 PM
57
A congressional investigation is gonna somehow be credible to these guys? Good luck.
Posted by Yeek on September 23, 2009 at 3:26 AM
58
" WE deserve a new, honest, consistent investigation"

I agree!!!!!

SHow us the birth certificate!!!!!!!
Posted by Ballard Man on September 23, 2009 at 7:11 AM
59
@57: Who is "these guys"?

@58: We've already seen the birth certificate. There's little controversy there. The people who performed what investigation into the crimes of 9/11 was done say we haven't completed an investigation. The only controversy over whether the investigation was complete is between those who did the investigating and the Bush administration and supporters, who do not want a complete investigation to happen.
Posted by Phil M http://twitter.com/pmocek on September 23, 2009 at 7:33 AM
60
Any time the possibility of a thorough, independent, impartial investigation into the crimes of 9/11 comes up, all these Bush shills show up and start with the name calling. No one here has bothered to dispute any of the facts in the Tatchell piece I quoted. Nobody has disputed that the 9/11 commissioners say their report was incomplete and flawed, that they were lied to, and that no one has been so much as reprimanded for lying to them.

Given all that, why wouldn't we push for a thorough investigation? This was a pretty big deal, right? We've based lots of changes to our foreign and domestic policies on what's very likely to be flawed information, right? Isn't everyone concerned with that?
Posted by Phil M http://twitter.com/pmocek on September 23, 2009 at 7:40 AM
61
"We've already seen the birth certificate. "

No we didn't, we saw a copy, not the original.

Birthers and Truthers unite!!!!!!

We can be the Bruthers!

I hope the CIA doesn't read this blog.....
Posted by Ballard Man on September 23, 2009 at 8:00 AM
62
"No one here has bothered to dispute any of the facts in the Tatchell piece I quoted"

.....because copy and paste fools are the first ones you ignore.
Posted by Davy Jones on September 23, 2009 at 8:01 AM
63
"No one here has bothered to dispute any of the facts in the Tatchell piece I quoted"

Don't argue with an idiot, people watching may not be able to tell the difference.
Posted by Testicular on September 23, 2009 at 8:14 AM
64
@61, @62. Trolls. You've been asked twice to discuss the topic at hand instead of attacking the messenger, but you've yet to offer anything of substance.

Anyone want to discuss what the 9/11 commissioners have to say about their investigation or whether we should complete a thorough investigation?
Posted by Phil M http://twitter.com/pmocek on September 23, 2009 at 8:14 AM
65
"You've been asked twice to discuss the topic at hand instead of attacking the messenger, but you've yet to offer anything of substance."

You mean I haven't gone out on the WWW, found the answers to debunk all the 9/11 conspiracy theorists, and done a copy and paste job like you? That's not "discussing" or 'debating'. That's Arguing for Idiots 101.
Posted by Ballard Man on September 23, 2009 at 8:34 AM
66
More than 80,000 New Yorkers have signed a petition to open an independent, impartial, investigation with the power to subpoena documents and testimony relevant to the events of September 11. I support their efforts.

Note: This information is being delivered via a computer network known as the Internet, using HTTP servers known as the World Wide Web. I acknowledge that it may not carry as much weight with some people as it would if it were delivered via post or carrier pigeon.
Posted by Phil M http://twitter.com/pmocek on September 23, 2009 at 8:46 AM
67
Phil: You still haven't explained how they smuggled in thousands of pounds of explosives into the WTC, past all the security guards, spent weeks wiring up the building, undetected from the 40,000 people who worked in the WTC, and then managed to keep it all quiet.

Tell me how they did that genius. In both towers and the Pentagon.
Posted by Roger That on September 23, 2009 at 8:49 AM
68
"More than 80,000 New Yorkers have signed a petition to open an independent, impartial, investigation with the power to subpoena documents and testimony relevant to the events of September 11. I support their efforts."

80K out of 8 million. Wow. I could probably get that many signatures in NYC to investigate crop circles.
Posted by Roger That on September 23, 2009 at 8:50 AM
69
I am neither a neoconjobber (most of whom are jewish) nor a limo libber...neither a phlegmocrat nor a gopster...in fact a pox on both your houses; but I could safely venture that the preponderant bulk of the one liners above flatulated straight out of the bowels of the ilk of lobotomy cases who lap the main sewer stream media public pablum up off the dirty carpet of American politics every minute of every day.....this country is wallowing in its own stool when the day has come that people are derogated as "truthers" simply because they seek the truth and have sense enough to know that the current regime, as in too many past, bald-facedly lies like a wet Turkish rug about nearly everything. I don't care if Sheen uses coke...so did Bush and Clinton but I don't hear any of you suck-lemmings complaining about how it might have effected their sociopathic regimes that inspired 9/11. If you don't believe in conspiracies then why is the word still in the law dictionaries?
Posted by Robert Hauser on September 23, 2009 at 10:00 AM
70
And as for you "Paul Constant"...you should quit whiling away so much of your time at the local shooting gallery. There was enough evidence against FDR in 1944 that he could have been easily hung for treason but to do so then would have-----so post war propaganda would have us believe-----completely shattered the already badly sagging morale of U.S. troops overseas and completely broken the back of the Allied mission, palsied as it turned out to be. You and every other of the counterfeit flagwavers and drugstore "patriots" and shills that have infested this thread need to get your heads out of rectal defilade and see this country's politics for the scatosphere it really is
Posted by Robert Hauser on September 23, 2009 at 10:08 AM
Fifty-Two-Eighty 71
Whew, this Robert Hauser whackadoodle is the best troll we've had here since ecce homo.
Posted by Fifty-Two-Eighty http://www.nra.org on September 23, 2009 at 10:24 AM
72
"most of whom are jewish"

Hmmmm...don't they run all the banks? That's what I read on the internets.
Posted by Billy Boy on September 23, 2009 at 10:43 AM
73
Actually, the Birthers have more in common with the "Osama (or Saddam) did it" crowd in the sense that ideology and brainwashing leads people to ignore the facts. Sheen is not the ideal person to deliver the message but he deserves credit for putting his career on the line to try to get the message across. He is not alone in wanting answers to important questions as shown by the list of signatures at the bottom of this document: http://www.911truth.org/page.php?page=20…
Posted by Which conspiracy to you believe? on September 23, 2009 at 10:46 AM
74
http://www.911truth.org/page.php?page=20…
Posted by killer of sheeple on September 23, 2009 at 10:48 AM
75
"ignore the facts."

What, that the government spent several weeks sneaking explosives into the WTC, wired them up throughout a busy office complex, and brought down the WTC and none of the 40K people who work there, plus thousands of visitors, noticed? And not one of the lowly security guards, making minimum wage, decided to cash in on this secret conspiracy?

Ignoring facts or common sense?
Posted by the World is Flat on September 23, 2009 at 11:06 AM
76
Actually some of the 40K people did notice when the elevators providing maintenance or sabotage access to all the core columns were upgraded in the months before 911, and some noticed that they had to shut down their computer servers on the weekend before 911 when the electricity was turned off for unspecified reasons and some also noticed that the sniffer dogs were pulled from the WTC before 911. Some also noticed that 2 relatives of George Bush, his cousin and his brother ran the security company in charge of the WTC
Posted by AE911truth4U on September 23, 2009 at 12:25 PM
77
That's a lot of 'some'. Did these unnamed witnesses also see men in black?

http://tinyurl.com/mflmno

Posted by Roger That on September 23, 2009 at 1:11 PM
78
Since debating Truthers is little more than an excercise in copy and pasting, I'll lower myself to their intellectual level and post one from those notorious government agents over at Popular Mechanics:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technolo…

Claim: Photographs and video footage shot just before United Airlines Flight 175 hit the South Tower of the World Trade Center (WTC) show an object underneath the fuselage at the base of the right wing. The film "911 In Plane Site" and the Web site LetsRoll911.org claim that no such object is found on a stock Boeing 767. They speculate that this "military pod" is a missile, a bomb or a piece of equipment on an air-refueling tanker. LetsRoll911.org points to this as evidence that the attacks were an "inside job" sanctioned by "President George Bush, who planned and engineered 9/11."

FACT: One of the clearest, most widely seen pictures of the doomed jet's undercarriage was taken by photographer Rob Howard and published in New York magazine and elsewhere (opening page). PM sent a digital scan of the original photo to Ronald Greeley, director of the Space Photography Laboratory at Arizona State University. Greeley is an expert at analyzing images to determine the shape and features of geological formations based on shadow and light effects. After studying the high-resolution image and comparing it to photos of a Boeing 767-200ER's undercarriage, Greeley dismissed the notion that the Howard photo reveals a "pod." In fact, the photo reveals only the Boeing's right fairing, a pronounced bulge that contains the landing gear. He concludes that sunlight glinting off the fairing gave it an exaggerated look. "Such a glint causes a blossoming (enlargement) on film," he writes in an e-mail to PM, "which tends to be amplified in digital versions of images — the pixels are saturated and tend to 'spill over' to adjacent pixels." When asked about pods attached to civilian aircraft, Fred E. Culick, professor of aeronautics at the California Institute of Technology, gave a blunter response: "That's bull. They're really stretching."

Claim: No fighter jets were scrambled from any of the 28 Air Force bases within close range of the four hijacked flights. "On 11 September Andrews had two squadrons of fighter jets with the job of protecting the skies over Washington D.C.," says the Web site emperors-clothes.com. "They failed to do their job." "There is only one explanation for this," writes Mark R. Elsis of StandDown.net. "Our Air Force was ordered to Stand Down on 9/11."

FACT: On 9/11 there were only 14 fighter jets on alert in the contiguous 48 states. No computer network or alarm automatically alerted the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) of missing planes. "They [civilian Air Traffic Control, or ATC] had to pick up the phone and literally dial us," says Maj. Douglas Martin, public affairs officer for NORAD. Boston Center, one of 22 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regional ATC facilities, called NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) three times: at 8:37 am EST to inform NEADS that Flight 11 was hijacked; at 9:21 am to inform the agency, mistakenly, that Flight 11 was headed for Washington (the plane had hit the North Tower 35 minutes earlier); and at 9:41 am to (erroneously) identify Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 from Boston as a possible hijacking. The New York ATC called NEADS at 9:03 am to report that United Flight 175 had been hijacked — the same time the plane slammed into the South Tower. Within minutes of that first call from Boston Center, NEADS scrambled two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Mass., and three F-16s from Langley Air National Guard Base in Hampton, Va. None of the fighters got anywhere near the pirated planes.

Why couldn't ATC find the hijacked flights? When the hijackers turned off the planes' transponders, which broadcast identifying signals, ATC had to search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors. And NORAD's sophisticated radar? It ringed the continent, looking outward for threats, not inward. "It was like a doughnut," Martin says. "There was no coverage in the middle." Pre-9/11, flights originating in the States were not seen as threats and NORAD wasn't prepared to track them.

Claim: On Sept. 11, FOX News broadcast a live phone interview with FOX employee Marc Birnbach. 911inplanesite.com states that "Bernback" saw the plane "crash into the South Tower." "It definitely did not look like a commercial plane," Birnbach said on air. "I didn't see any windows on the sides."

Coupled with photographs and videos of Flight 175 that lack the resolution to show windows, Birnbach's statement has fueled one of the most widely referenced 9/11 conspiracy theories — specifically, that the South Tower was struck by a military cargo plane or a fuel tanker.

FACT: Birnbach, who was a freelance videographer with FOX News at the time, tells PM that he was more than 2 miles southeast of the WTC, in Brooklyn, when he briefly saw a plane fly over. He says that, in fact, he did not see the plane strike the South Tower; he says he only heard the explosion.

While heading a Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) probe into the collapse of the towers, W. Gene Corley studied the airplane wreckage. A licensed structural engineer with Construction Technology Laboratories, a consulting firm based in Skokie, Ill., Corley and his team photographed aircraft debris on the roof of WTC 5, including a chunk of fuselage that clearly had passenger windows. "It's ... from the United Airlines plane that hit Tower 2," Corley states flatly. In reviewing crash footage taken by an ABC news crew, Corley was able to track the trajectory of the fragments he studied — including a section of the landing gear and part of an engine — as they tore through the South Tower, exited from the building's north side and fell from the sky.

Claim: "It has been standard operating procedures for decades to immediately intercept off-course planes that do not respond to communications from air traffic controllers," says the Web site oilempire.us. "When the Air Force 'scrambles' a fighter plane to intercept, they usually reach the plane in question in minutes."

FACT: In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999. With passengers and crew unconscious from cabin decompression, the plane lost radio contact but remained in transponder contact until it crashed. Even so, it took an F-16 1 hour and 22 minutes to reach the stricken jet. Rules in effect back then, and on 9/11, prohibited supersonic flight on intercepts. Prior to 9/11, all other NORAD interceptions were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ). "Until 9/11 there was no domestic ADIZ," FAA spokesman Bill Schumann tells PM. After 9/11, NORAD and the FAA increased cooperation, setting up hotlines between ATCs and NORAD command centers, according to officials from both agencies. NORAD has also increased its fighter coverage and has installed radar to monitor airspace over the continent.

Claim: The first hijacked plane crashed through the 94th to the 98th floors of the World Trade Center's 110-story North Tower; the second jet slammed into the 78th to the 84th floors of the 110-story South Tower. The impact and ensuing fires disrupted elevator service in both buildings. Plus, the lobbies of both buildings were visibly damaged before the towers collapsed. "There is NO WAY the impact of the jet caused such widespread damage 80 stories below," claims a posting on the San Diego Independent Media Center Web site (sandiego.indymedia.org). "It is OBVIOUS and irrefutable that OTHER EXPLOSIVES (... such as concussion bombs) HAD ALREADY BEEN DETONATED in the lower levels of tower one at the same time as the plane crash."

FACT: Following up on a May 2002 preliminary report by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), a major study will be released in spring 2005 by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), a branch of the U.S. Department of Commerce. NIST shared its initial findings with PM and made its lead researcher available to our team of reporters.

The NIST investigation revealed that plane debris sliced through the utility shafts at the North Tower's core, creating a conduit for burning jet fuel — and fiery destruction throughout the building. "It's very hard to document where the fuel went," says Forman Williams, a NIST adviser and a combustion expert, "but if it's atomized and combustible and gets to an ignition source, it'll go off."

Burning fuel traveling down the elevator shafts would have disrupted the elevator systems and caused extensive damage to the lobbies. NIST heard first-person testimony that "some elevators slammed right down" to the ground floor. "The doors cracked open on the lobby floor and flames came out and people died," says James Quintiere, an engineering professor at the University of Maryland and a NIST adviser. A similar observation was made in the French documentary "9/11," by Jules and Gedeon Naudet. As Jules Naudet entered the North Tower lobby, minutes after the first aircraft struck, he saw victims on fire, a scene he found too horrific to film.

Claim: "We have been lied to," announces the Web site AttackOnAmerica.net. "The first lie was that the load of fuel from the aircraft was the cause of structural failure. No kerosene fire can burn hot enough to melt steel." The posting is entitled "Proof Of Controlled Demolition At The WTC."

FACT: Jet fuel burns at 800° to 1500°F, not hot enough to melt steel (2750°F). However, experts agree that for the towers to collapse, their steel frames didn't need to melt, they just had to lose some of their structural strength — and that required exposure to much less heat. "I have never seen melted steel in a building fire," says retired New York deputy fire chief Vincent Dunn, author of The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety. "But I've seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel. What happens is that the steel tries to expand at both ends, but when it can no longer expand, it sags and the surrounding concrete cracks."

"Steel loses about 50 percent of its strength at 1100°F," notes senior engineer Farid Alfawak-hiri of the American Institute of Steel Construction. "And at 1800° it is probably at less than 10 percent." NIST also believes that a great deal of the spray-on fireproofing insulation was likely knocked off the steel beams that were in the path of the crashing jets, leaving the metal more vulnerable to the heat.

But jet fuel wasn't the only thing burning, notes Forman Williams, a professor of engineering at the University of California, San Diego, and one of seven structural engineers and fire experts that PM consulted. He says that while the jet fuel was the catalyst for the WTC fires, the resulting inferno was intensified by the combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper. NIST reports that pockets of fire hit 1832°F.

"The jet fuel was the ignition source," Williams tells PM. "It burned for maybe 10 minutes, and [the towers] were still standing in 10 minutes. It was the rest of the stuff burning afterward that was responsible for the heat transfer that eventually brought them down."

Claim: As each tower collapsed, clearly visible puffs of dust and debris were ejected from the sides of the buildings. An advertisement in The New York Times for the book Painful Questions: An Analysis Of The September 11th Attack made this claim: "The concrete clouds shooting out of the buildings are not possible from a mere collapse. They do occur from explosions." Numerous conspiracy theorists cite Van Romero, an explosives expert and vice president of the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology, who was quoted on 9/11 by the Albuquerque Journal as saying "there were some explosive devices inside the buildings that caused the towers to collapse." The article continues, "Romero said the collapse of the structures resembled those of controlled implosions used to demolish old structures."

FACT: Once each tower began to collapse, the weight of all the floors above the collapsed zone bore down with pulverizing force on the highest intact floor. Unable to absorb the massive energy, that floor would fail, transmitting the forces to the floor below, allowing the collapse to progress downward through the building in a chain reaction. Engineers call the process "pancaking," and it does not require an explosion to begin, according to David Biggs, a structural engineer at Ryan-Biggs Associates and a member of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) team that worked on the FEMA report.

Like all office buildings, the WTC towers contained a huge volume of air. As they pancaked, all that air — along with the concrete and other debris pulverized by the force of the collapse — was ejected with enormous energy. "When you have a significant portion of a floor collapsing, it's going to shoot air and concrete dust out the window," NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder tells PM. Those clouds of dust may create the impression of a controlled demolition, Sunder adds, "but it is the floor pancaking that leads to that perception."

Demolition expert Romero regrets that his comments to the Albuquerque Journal became fodder for conspiracy theorists. "I was misquoted in saying that I thought it was explosives that brought down the building," he tells PM. "I only said that that's what it looked like."

Romero, who agrees with the scientific conclusion that fire triggered the collapses, demanded a retraction from the Journal. It was printed Sept. 22, 2001. "I felt like my scientific reputation was on the line." But emperors-clothes.com saw something else: "The paymaster of Romero's research institute is the Pentagon. Directly or indirectly, pressure was brought to bear, forcing Romero to retract his original statement." Romero responds: "Conspiracy theorists came out saying that the government got to me. That is the farthest thing from the truth. This has been an albatross around my neck for three years."

Claim: Seven hours after the two towers fell, the 47-story WTC 7 collapsed. According to 911review.org: "The video clearly shows that it was not a collapse subsequent to a fire, but rather a controlled demolition: amongst the Internet investigators, the jury is in on this one."

FACT: Many conspiracy theorists point to FEMA's preliminary report, which said there was relatively light damage to WTC 7 prior to its collapse. With the benefit of more time and resources, NIST researchers now support the working hypothesis that WTC 7 was far more compromised by falling debris than the FEMA report indicated. "The most important thing we found was that there was, in fact, physical damage to the south face of building 7," NIST's Sunder tells PM. "On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom — approximately 10 stories — about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out." NIST also discovered previously undocumented damage to WTC 7's upper stories and its southwest corner.

NIST investigators believe a combination of intense fire and severe structural damage contributed to the collapse, though assigning the exact proportion requires more research. But NIST's analysis suggests the fall of WTC 7 was an example of "progressive collapse," a process in which the failure of parts of a structure ultimately creates strains that cause the entire building to come down. Videos of the fall of WTC 7 show cracks, or "kinks," in the building's facade just before the two penthouses disappeared into the structure, one after the other. The entire building fell in on itself, with the slumping east side of the structure pulling down the west side in a diagonal collapse.

According to NIST, there was one primary reason for the building's failure: In an unusual design, the columns near the visible kinks were carrying exceptionally large loads, roughly 2000 sq. ft. of floor area for each floor. "What our preliminary analysis has shown is that if you take out just one column on one of the lower floors," Sunder notes, "it could cause a vertical progression of collapse so that the entire section comes down."

There are two other possible contributing factors still under investigation: First, trusses on the fifth and seventh floors were designed to transfer loads from one set of columns to another. With columns on the south face apparently damaged, high stresses would likely have been communicated to columns on the building's other faces, thereby exceeding their load-bearing capacities.

Second, a fifth-floor fire burned for up to 7 hours. "There was no firefighting in WTC 7," Sunder says. Investigators believe the fire was fed by tanks of diesel fuel that many tenants used to run emergency generators. Most tanks throughout the building were fairly small, but a generator on the fifth floor was connected to a large tank in the basement via a pressurized line. Says Sunder: "Our current working hypothesis is that this pressurized line was supplying fuel [to the fire] for a long period of time."

WTC 7 might have withstood the physical damage it received, or the fire that burned for hours, but those combined factors — along with the building's unusual construction — were enough to set off the chain-reaction collapse.
More...
Posted by Billy Boy on September 23, 2009 at 1:18 PM
biffster 79
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/…

i wouldn't say our gov't was responsible for the attacks. but they were aware that something was going down and turned a blind eye.

if they are absolutely guilty of anything, they are guilty of ignoring the warning signs.

but then again, there's a new season of "Dancing with the Stars," football season is in full swing, and i just updated my facebook/myspace/twitter posts so who cares about anything else?
Posted by biffster on September 23, 2009 at 1:25 PM
80
"if they are absolutely guilty of anything, they are guilty of ignoring the warning signs."

Incompetence, arrogance, hubris and stupidity are not the same as a conspiracy.
Posted by Billy Boy on September 23, 2009 at 1:28 PM
81
Billy, the more you fight and debate these folks, the more you feed their paranoia. It's a losing proposition. Facts to the delusional and paranoid are just more evidence of a conspiracy against their warped world view.

Now, can we get back to something that was clearly faked, the moon landings!
Posted by davy Jones on September 23, 2009 at 1:47 PM
82
HIV doesn't cause AIDS!!

I read it on the web.
Posted by Billy Boy on September 23, 2009 at 1:49 PM
83
David Icke argues that reptilian, shape-shifting extraterrestrial humanoids are responsible for the 9/11 attacks. According to Icke, a reptilian global elite is behind all things that occur in the world. According to Phoenix New Times, "Icke is part of a virulent strain of anti-Semitism that runs throughout the 9/11 conspiracy crowd."
Posted by Reptilian, shape-shifting extraterrestrial humanoid on September 23, 2009 at 6:32 PM
84
The mistaken belief that a handful of unexplained anomalies can undermine a well-established theory lies at the heart of all conspiratorial thinking. All the evidence for a 9/11 conspiracy falls under the rubric of this fallacy. Such notions are easily refuted by noting that scientific theories are not built on single facts alone but on a convergence of evidence assembled from multiple lines of inquiry.
Posted by Michael Shermer on September 23, 2009 at 6:35 PM
85
Journalist Matt Taibbi, in his book The Great Derangement, discusses 9/11 conspiracy theories as symptomatic of what he calls the "derangement" of American society; a disconnection from reality due to widespread "disgust with our political system".
Posted by Matt Taibbi on September 23, 2009 at 6:38 PM
86
I'm not going to feed the trolls any more than I mistakenly already did, but does anyone have anything to say about the 9/11 commissioners saying that their report was incomplete and flawed, and that they were lied to during the investigation? Anybody want to address why no one was so much as reprimanded for lying to the 9/11 Commission? Would anyone care to argue that there was no conspiracy -- that people did not conspire to commit these crimes, but rather that one person carried them out? Does anyone feel satisfied with this incomplete report based on intentionally-inaccurate information?
Posted by Phil M http://twitter.com/pmocek on September 23, 2009 at 6:53 PM
87
If you want to attack Mr. Sheen that's fine. But stick to the points that he makes in his letter to the president. Investigate them and than respond. If you attack him personally it only adds credence to his side of the argument. What many of you are doing is attacking him personally which in actuality only takes away from your side of the argument. Here are some facts for you about the events of 9/11: 1) 6 out of 10 members of the 9/11 comission have stated publicly that the investigation itself was a sham; that it was compromised. 2) There is zero historical precedent for fire or jet fuel to have EVER caused a building to collapse in a pancake fashion. 3) Numerous eye witnesses said they heard explosions or bombs go off in the buildings that day. Many said that there were initially some huge explosions coming from under the buildings. These facts alone render it necessary for an independant investigation to take place.
Posted by sb213 on September 23, 2009 at 7:41 PM
88
I think a lot of 9/11 truth people are naive: this is *dangerous* information and the outfall that would follow from its exposure is difficult to predict -- civil unrest is just the tip of the iceberg. W/ that said, the dismissive ad hominems are being doled out by folks who know perfectly well what the deal is but out of some mis-placed sense of patriotic duty etc. are pretending otherwise.

The good news is that the hubristic "masters of the mind f**k" mentality that has gained currency w/ intelligence operatives and an equal measure of public notoriety b/c it's been reported on recently in the MSM, is no longer a matter of paranoid speculation. Make no mistake: the psyop is real and multidisciplinary. In short, the phrase I used above, "mis-placed sense of patriotic duty", is a euphemism -- get my drift.

For more on unelected spook bureaucrats and the operational remedies they employ check out the website of one of their premier training grounds:
http://www.iwp.edu/

This guy's a member of their teaching staff:
http://www.iwp.edu/faculty/facultyID.20/…
Posted by ben thumb on September 23, 2009 at 9:06 PM
89
Thanks Ben....and to think they called you paranoid because you thought everyone was out to get you!
Posted by Ben's middle finger on September 24, 2009 at 6:44 AM
90
CLAIM: 2) There is zero historical precedent for fire or jet fuel to have EVER caused a building to collapse in a pancake fashion

FACT: Jet fuel burns at 800° to 1500°F, not hot enough to melt steel (2750°F). However, experts agree that for the towers to collapse, their steel frames didn't need to melt, they just had to lose some of their structural strength — and that required exposure to much less heat. "I have never seen melted steel in a building fire," says retired New York deputy fire chief Vincent Dunn, author of The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety. "But I've seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel. What happens is that the steel tries to expand at both ends, but when it can no longer expand, it sags and the surrounding concrete cracks."

"Steel loses about 50 percent of its strength at 1100°F," notes senior engineer Farid Alfawak-hiri of the American Institute of Steel Construction. "And at 1800° it is probably at less than 10 percent." NIST also believes that a great deal of the spray-on fireproofing insulation was likely knocked off the steel beams that were in the path of the crashing jets, leaving the metal more vulnerable to the heat.

But jet fuel wasn't the only thing burning, notes Forman Williams, a professor of engineering at the University of California, San Diego, and one of seven structural engineers and fire experts that PM consulted. He says that while the jet fuel was the catalyst for the WTC fires, the resulting inferno was intensified by the combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper. NIST reports that pockets of fire hit 1832°F.

"The jet fuel was the ignition source," Williams tells PM. "It burned for maybe 10 minutes, and [the towers] were still standing in 10 minutes. It was the rest of the stuff burning afterward that was responsible for the heat transfer that eventually brought them down."
More...
Posted by Davy Jones on September 24, 2009 at 6:48 AM
91
Man, you Bush administration supporters just can't debate the issue at hand, can you? Rant, rave, and call names all you like, but anyone who's putting thought into this can see that you're doing little more than having an online temper tantrum. It's tiring.

There's no disputing that the people who performed what little investigation was performed say it was not thorough, ignored key evidence, and was based on lies. They've said this publicly. The dispute is over whether we should accept this incomplete and flawed investigation or demand a legitimate one. I can't tell if these un-registered commenters who show up to whine about our demand for a new investigation are just trying to stir up controversy (i.e., trolling) or simply do not have the courage to face the fact that we have been misled and have ignored all the evidence that the report we've seen was deeply flawed.

Would anyone care to address any of the information in Sheen's letter or any of the statements made by the 9/11 Commission about the flawed nature of their report? I've repeatedly linked to published sources of comments made by these first-hand witnesses to the flawed investigation.
Posted by Phil M http://twitter.com/pmocek on September 24, 2009 at 7:15 AM
92
"you Bush administration supporters"

Are you shitting me? I'm a livelong democrat, maxed out on donations to Obama and voted for him 3 times (once for the senate). Your hatred has made you fucking delusional.
Posted by Davy Jones on September 24, 2009 at 7:49 AM
93
"you Bush administration supporters just can't debate the issue at hand"

It's fucking crazies like you that drive the masses to the Republicans when they see your lunatic, far leftist rantings.
Posted by Davy Jones on September 24, 2009 at 7:53 AM
94
"Would anyone care to address any of the information in Sheen's letter or any of the statements made by the 9/11 Commission about the flawed nature of their report? I've repeatedly linked to published sources of comments made by these first-hand witnesses to the flawed investigation"

Read the Popular Mechanics article referenced above that refutes, point by point, the TRuthers main fantasies. You started with the copy and paste debate, so read it.
Posted by Billy Boy on September 24, 2009 at 8:14 AM
95
So those of you that are curious about things like the Gulf on Tonkin incident, or the myriad lies that sent us to war in Iraq, or the secret dealings with weapons, energy, and contracting corporations, or warrantless wiretaps, or the FBI's targeting of many of history's greatest social progressives... SHUT UP!

You should NEVER have heard of these things because it takes a complete wack-job to even LOOK INTO this stuff. And you know, if Popular Mechanics does a piece suggesting something, you'd better believe it settles everything... Because we're talking about Popular Mechanics here folks, not some classless 'journalists' with a stick up their butt.

Also, if you think the government has ever done anything wrong, or even get an inkling that they have done something that pushes the grey area of morality, then you clearly believe that aliens have mind control over the president, and you're gullible enough to be a 'birther'. See? We added 'er' at the end of a noun, which creates a clear, undeniable link between your group and theirs!

So go on, you crazy "Dick Cheney secretly profited along with many other corporate leaders, after lying us into the Iraq War" nut-jobs. Go on and on about 'torture' that took place in 'secret prisons' (Like thos places ever really existed). You're just NUTS who believe anything. Go ahead, read your 'internet blogs' that have had NO impact on the spread of information in our society, and continue to delude yourself. Everything is now, has been, and forever will be FINE.

George Bush wasn't properly elected? You must be a 'Truther.'
Posted by You you you you on September 24, 2009 at 8:51 AM
96
You forgot: Obama was born in Kenya, the moon landings were faked and HIV doesn't cause AIDS.

Ron Paul and Linux!! 2012!!
Posted by Billy Boy on September 24, 2009 at 2:59 PM
97
ad ho⋅mi⋅nem
  /æd ˈhɒmənəm ‑ˌnɛm, ɑd-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ad hom-uh-nuhm ‑nem, ahd-] Show IPA
Use ad hominem in a Sentence
See web results for ad hominem
See images of ad hominem
–adjective
1. appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.
2. attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.
Posted by North American Scum on September 24, 2009 at 3:11 PM
98
"appeal.... to one's intellect or reason"

LMAO, the Truthers and Birthers left that station a long time ago, along with Ron Paul, the Free Linux Movement and all the other paranoids.
Posted by Freebie on September 24, 2009 at 3:14 PM
99
@You you you you - Orwell would be proud. And to all those who are in love with this current system of things, and attack anyone who questions the power structure within it as someone who is a nutjob, crazy, etc. - You have proved Orwell right - Ignorance is strength.
Posted by North American Scum on September 24, 2009 at 3:39 PM
100
@You you you you - Orwell would be proud. And to all those who are in love with this current system of things, and attack anyone who questions the power structure within it as someone who is a nutjob, crazy, etc. - You have proved Orwell right - Ignorance is strength.
Posted by North American Scum on September 24, 2009 at 3:39 PM
101
@98
LMAO, I am from another country (Not US) and have no affiliation with the Ron Paul, Free Linux movements. One can easily argue that anti-truthers/ anti-birthers appeal to their own prejudges, emotions etc. when attacking one or both movements. It's just that you have the consensus of the mainstream media and the power structure of gov't etc. to back you up, giving you a false sense of glorification/ delusions of grandeur.
Posted by North American Scum on September 24, 2009 at 3:48 PM
102
Ps. I have never even considered myself a 'truther'. I just don't think there should be such a stigma attached to asking questions and thinking critically, even towards major power structures that carry out official investigations. Call me what you will, but I'd rather ask questions than accept things at face value.
Posted by North American Scum on September 24, 2009 at 3:52 PM
103
" You have proved Orwell right - Ignorance is strength."

Except for one minor detail: The USA in 2009 isn't the collectivist nightmare of Oceania in '1984'.

That's unless, of course, you're smoking too much weed, work at Kinkos and think Linux will set man free, in which case I could see why you'd find life in the US of A to be quite hellish.

Posted by Centrists Rule the World today on September 24, 2009 at 3:55 PM
104
"thinking critically"

Thinking that hundreds of government agents snuck into the WTC buildings and Pentagon, spent weeks paying explosives, snuck back out and then blew them up isn't 'thinking critically', it's lunacy.

It's the kind of lunacy that lets people believe 'Jews control the banks', or 'aliens abduct humans and do experiments'. People who believe in wild, unprovable conspiracies will be the first ones shoving people into the ovens.
Posted by Billy Boy on September 24, 2009 at 3:58 PM
105
Wow Billy Boy and Centrists, you both make such random assertions there from what I have said, which enhances how you exhibit a narrow-minded, arrogant stance on this late-great-planet-earth.

Centrists, I said "Ignorance is Strength" meaning that a mass amount of people are buying into this system of things (the mainstream media/ gov't / financial elite) as being the real truth which is ignorant and provides the ego a false sense of glorification because you have all sorts of big powerful people on your side of reasoning, and with this, it may enhance your role within society (signifying the concept that ignorance is strength).. NOT that US of A is a direct comparison to Oceania - way out of context there.. If anything, Huxley's "Brave New World" paints a better picture of the psychology of today, with how the 21st century world is moving toward authoritative tyranny, in that people come to love the oppressive world around them and even defend it, even amidst there being less rights and freedoms, more wars etc. etc. to name a tip of the melting iceberg... and then you make your ad hominem attack, claiming linux this and kinkos that, which, as someone living outside the US, don't even know about...

And Billy Boy - I just wish you would take it upon yourself to "think critically" upon a peer-reviewed scientifical study, headed by A Danish scientist Niels Harrit, who has the evidence of an ambundunce of nano-thermite found in the wreckage of the WTC buildings. It is a highly sophisticated, military grade, explosive that was found in the tonnes. Here's the video of the Harrit being interviewed on a mainstream news channel in Denmark (a rare mainstream news network, that has got some balls to pose questions of the official story, at that)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_tf25lx_…

The investigation wasn't even close to being based on all the facts. 6 out of 10 of the official commisioners agree! How is it so hard not to question critically the events of that infamous day. There are numerous, sophisticated and intelligent people that have these same questions, and for myself, I don't prescribe to the lunacy of such notions as the 'Jews control the banks' or aliens abduct etc. Connecting the two is the real lunacy my friend!

Anyway, I know these efforts on both our parts may in fact be quite a waste of time. Since the many people like myself won't be satisfied until there is a second investigation that is open and honest. And for all the people that loyally back the official story, you will perhaps always be driven to continue to stick up for what you see as righteousness, even if it is in fact tyranny.

God Bless you all &
Take care of yourselves out there.
Peace. ( War isn't )
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Posted by North American Scum on September 24, 2009 at 11:18 PM
106
@103 and 104

Ps. I dare you to use your highly-touted critical thinking skills and actually read, and analyse what I just wrote there @105.

Cheers!
Posted by North American Scum on September 24, 2009 at 11:21 PM
107
"People who believe in wild, unprovable conspiracies will be the first ones shoving people into the ovens"
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/20…
Posted by ben thumb on September 24, 2009 at 11:43 PM
108
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/…

9/11 Families to March on City Hall as City Seeks to Stop Fresh Probe of Attacks From Going on November Ballot

NEW YORK, Sept. 24 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- On Sunday, September 27 at 2 p.m., The New York City Coalition for Accountability Now (NYC CAN), a group comprising 9/11 family members, first responders and survivors, will march from Battery Park to City Hall in protest of the City's attempt to block the referendum for a fresh probe of the 9/11 attacks from going on the November ballot.

The effort to establish a local commission to pick up where the 9/11 Commission left off comes just as the 9/11 Commission's Chief Counsel John Farmer released a book entitled "The Ground Truth" in which he claims "at some level of government, at some point in time. . . there was an agreement not to tell the truth about what happened."

Eighty-thousand New Yorkers have signed the petition as it has won the endorsement of 2002 TIME magazine person of the year, and former FBI agent, Coleen Rowley, as well as outspoken 9/11 victims' family members including Bill Doyle, who lost his son Joey, and Lorie Van Auken, who lost her husband Kenneth. Van Auken is one of the esteemed 'Jersey Girls' who successfully lobbied the federal government to set up the 9/11 Commission only to have 70% of her group's questions to the Commission go unanswered.

Speakers for the Battery Park rally include 9/11 family members Bob McIlvaine and Manny Badillo, New York University's Professor of Media Studies, Mark Crispin Miller, and actor Daniel Sunjata of the Emmy-winning Fox Television series "Rescue Me" which depicts post-9/11 life in a FDNY firehouse. After a half-hour speakers' program, 9/11 family members and first responders will lead thousands of supporters in a march past Ground Zero, The City Clerk's Office and The State Supreme Court, all the way to the steps of City Hall.

This week NYC CAN submitted a memorandum of law in response to the City's challenge of the petition's legality. The Court-appointed referee is scheduled to submit his report and recommendations to the Court on Monday, September 28. The Court will decide whether or not to adopt the referee's recommendations and then issue a decision, after which appeals will likely follow immediately. "The arguments are strong on both sides, so the judges will have some thinking and analyzing to do," said Dennis McMahon, the Petitioners' attorney. "No other case pending in the New York courts has a higher priority on the calendars than this one, so we should have a definitive answer by next week."

If the Court decides in NYC CAN's favor and 15,000 of the 28,000 additional signatures submitted on September 4 are deemed valid by the City Clerk, the referendum will go on this November's ballot. If the referendum passes, it would lead to the creation of a local, independent commission with subpoena power that would be tasked with comprehensively reinvestigating the attacks. For more info: http://www.nyccan.org.
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Posted by ben thumb on September 25, 2009 at 12:34 AM
109
"http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/20…"

Jewish lesbians! Thanks Ben Thumb, I knew the Jews were somehow responsible for 9/11.
Posted by Don't kill our readers! on September 25, 2009 at 10:25 AM
Will in Seattle 110
Now I see where all the tin hat Birthers went ...
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on September 25, 2009 at 11:29 AM
111
It takes but an inkling of not-so-common sense to realize that two massive skyscrapers cannot be turned into a pile of rubble without a great deal of explosives. It's physics 101: an object in motion, and conservation of energy. The smoking gun is the third building that fell that day, WTC 7. The chances of three buildings collapsing all the way to the ground at near free-fall speed, due to fire and damage, all on the same day, is astronomical. It's greater than a billion to one.

If the top portion of the building coming crashing down is what caused the rest of the building to collapse, then the collapse would have taken far longer then +/- 12 seconds. The top portion of the building would not and could not devour the rest of the entire building all the way down to the basement levels. There are hundreds and hundreds of doctorate level engineers from multiple disciplines who understand this. One of my good friends is a civil engineer for the City of Seattle and he designs massive structures framed in steel reinforced concrete. When I asked him to review the video and photos, he immediately came to the conclusion that only explosives could cause the towers to crumble in such a way.

I've interviewed a Boeing engineer and two 7*7 pilots and all three concurred that there is no way a plane hit the Pentagon, and there is no way amateur pilots flew planes into the twin towers. There's video of the second plane coming out of the sky in a perfect dive-bomb maneuver, and as it approaches the building, it makes two precise corrections. The only plausible explanation is that the planes were flown via GPS guided remote control. Dozens of professional pilots have tried to recreate (through simulator exercise) the crash scenarios with the towers and the pentagon, and only one 20+ year veteran pilot was able to successfully fly his virtual plane into one of the towers after several attempts.

This is one of the worst crimes ever committed. The grand illusion surrounding and following 9/11 has led to the deaths of millions of Iraqis and Afghanis. The 9/11 Commission report was a blatant whitewash as described by one of the premier intellects of our time, Benjamin DeMott here: http://www.harpers.org/archive/2004/10/0…

There are myriad questions left unanswered, and there's an obvious media agenda to keep the truth unknown. I'm not claiming I know who pulled off the 9/11 crimes, or how, but I do know it wasn't 19 foreign hijackers. I also understand basic physics principles, and trust the knowledge of the 800+ folks who've signed the joint statement at http://www.ae911truth.org/
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Posted by Edgey Reason on September 25, 2009 at 3:56 PM
112
"there's an obvious media agenda to keep the truth unknown"

No doubt....and we know who controls the media...the Jews!
Posted by Paranoid Reason on September 25, 2009 at 7:20 PM

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