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News & ArtsMonday, September 21, 2009
Sex / Religion Looking At Naked Ladies Makes You Gay
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 11:31 AM
In case you missed it:
"And one of the things that he said to me, that I think is an astonishingly insightful remark. He said, 'all pornography is homosexual pornography because all pornography turns your sexual drive inwards.... And if you, if you tell an 11-year-old boy about that, do you think he’s going to want to go out and get a copy of Playboy? I’m pretty sure he’ll lose interest. That’s the last thing he wants.” You know, that’s a, that’s a good comment. It’s a good point and it’s a good thing to teach young people."
We should teach boys that pornography—even pictures of naked ladies—and masturbation—which 99.999999% of them engage in—will turn them gay. Because masturbation turns them "inward." Because, hey, every time you touch your own cock, every time you give yourself an orgasm, you've just... um, what? Desensitizing yourself to sucking off strangers in toilets?
These comments—which are everywhere today—were offered up at a panel on masculinity at this weekend's Value Voters Summit in Washington D.C. And not by some lunatic in the audience who got ahold of a mic and was quickly laughed out of the room, but by Michael Schwartz, chief of staff for Sen. Tom Coburn. What is there to say besides... these people are, well, first and foremost: these people are nuts. And they're absolutely terrified of human sexuality. They're afraid of women having control of their own reproductive systems, they're afraid of pornography, they're afraid of masturbation, of birth control, of homosexuality. And since they refuse to accept that homosexuality isn't a choice—for reasons political as well as religious—they have to look for environmental causes, for accidents and incidents, for trapdoors that normal, red-blooded 'merican men can fall through and into the homosexuality lifestyle.
Or they have to pretend that that's what they're doing. I don't believe that Schwartz actually believes what he said and I don't think that his audience really believes it either. The real key to Schwartz's real meaning came in a comment he made a bit earlier, in an observation about 11-year-old boys:
"They speak badly about homosexuality. And that’s because they don’t want to be that way. They don’t want to fall into it."
So lie to them about it—tell them pornography, which we don't like, and masturbation, which we don't like, will lead to homosexuality, which we detest. Doesn't matter if it's not true. Exploit their fears of homosexuality to keep them away from porn and keep them from masturbating—away from pleasure—and further stigmatize homosexuals in the eyes of straight boys and further terrify and isolate gay boys. Hey, we already lie to them about the harms of premarital sex, the effectiveness of birth control, the protections that condoms provide, the emotional consequences of abortion, and the existential threat that gay marriage supposedly poses to "opposite-marriage." What's one more lie?
What's most amazing about this particular lie is how easily disproved it is. If pornography and masturbation makes you gay... how come all men aren't gay?
1
Dan, why don't you think they are 100% convinced of what they say? How about Gay Citizens start from the point of taking them seriously until such time as they prove otherwise? I suggest they DO believe what they say. I'll take them seriously and act accordingly, instead of doing what Gay Incorporated usually does which is REACT once they discover these nuts DO believe what they're saying and the damage is done.
2
I found the Huffington article this morning, and I didn't know whether to laugh, cry, or look for a pike upon which to hoist Schwartz' head somewhere along Pennsylvania Avenue.
3
Of COURSE they're terrified. Sex IS dangerous -- to them! Like Evan Rachel Wood says after that soul-opening kiss in "Whatever Works," it's like entropy---once the toothpaste is out of that tube, you can't get it back in. And then people start thinking for themselves, and questioning what they're told, and the shit really hits the fan.
5
They have no doubt learned of our secret gay liberal media plot: plant subliminal gay images in straight porn to turn kids gay.
8
The reason 11-year old boys speak badly about homosexuality is because stupid assholes like Schwartz and Coburn won't shut the fuck up.
10
It's all fun and games until pornography somehow turns my porn-loving wife into a gay man. I won't be laughing then, no sir.
11
If it's so damn easy to "go gay" then there are a lot of rather hot guys I need to give that slight shove into man on man butt action.
Later!
Later!
12
That must be the explanation for the severe population decline since the invention of pornography.
13
"...how come all men aren't gay?"
- but they are! And so all the men at the Value Voters Summit were forced to sign up for homo-deprogramming at cash-strapped Exodus International.
- but they are! And so all the men at the Value Voters Summit were forced to sign up for homo-deprogramming at cash-strapped Exodus International.
14
At 11 years old I loved Playboy. Boobies, dirty jokes... What could be better.
At 9 I would have only liked the jokes.
At 9 I would have only liked the jokes.
15
I'm prepared to consider that they believe what they say on the basis that most raging homophobes are gay. If, therefore, whatshisface is a closet case, I could see him blaming his own sexuality on that Victoria's Secret catalogue he furtively masturbated to when he was 14.
16
Pornography is a convenient target because even the people who view it in private are rarely willing to defend it in public.
17
11-year old boys are terrified of their sexuality. So of course this wingnut, also terrified of his sexuality, would laud 11-year old boys for their "good instinct" in that regard. The same impulse that drives immature kids to say "eww, yucky buttsecks" and call each other faggots is the same impulse that's at work in these Values Voter types.
18
What he meant to say was "looking at naked pictures of women makes you realize you're a closeted gay 'conservative' who actually is not turned on by women".
So, in a way, it makes you gay - if you're already gay but just trying not to admit you are.
For us straight guys it doesn't change anything. Although it does distort your view (sociological) of the available pool of women you find attractive, which is not good.
So, in a way, it makes you gay - if you're already gay but just trying not to admit you are.
For us straight guys it doesn't change anything. Although it does distort your view (sociological) of the available pool of women you find attractive, which is not good.
19
So long as they're looking for environmental causes of homosexuality, we can at least turn that to our advantage by saying that climate change, deforestation, and water pollution cause homosexuality. Republicans would suddenly become staunch environmentalists. By the time they figure out that we're just shitting them and "j/k homosexuality has been innate this whole time," it'll be too late: we'll already have clean air and water and limits on CO2 emmissions.
20
Putting aside the place these comments came from, there's some truth to them.
It's been often said by the experts that men who engage in the viewing of pornography eventually leap on to other sexual acts and their inhibitions diminish more and more with each new sexual act they engage in, that can easily lead to homosexual acts. It sort of works in the same way as a drug addiction does, the drive just increments and new experiences are sought.
History gives us the best (more accurately worst) example of this behavior in the roman emperor Nero, incestuous, bisexual, and finally homosexual. Corrupted by all lust natural (heterosexual) and unnatural (homosexual). Once men engage in these sort of addictions like pornography sooner or later they will descend into all sorts of degradations and will loose all self respect and worth.
It's been often said by the experts that men who engage in the viewing of pornography eventually leap on to other sexual acts and their inhibitions diminish more and more with each new sexual act they engage in, that can easily lead to homosexual acts. It sort of works in the same way as a drug addiction does, the drive just increments and new experiences are sought.
History gives us the best (more accurately worst) example of this behavior in the roman emperor Nero, incestuous, bisexual, and finally homosexual. Corrupted by all lust natural (heterosexual) and unnatural (homosexual). Once men engage in these sort of addictions like pornography sooner or later they will descend into all sorts of degradations and will loose all self respect and worth.
21
Oh, and while we're at it, we'll say that proper preventative medical care can nip the growth of "homo-cells" in the bud. Nationalized health care will pass in an instant! Pre-existing conditions will be a thing of the past!
22
20: So you're having to "repress" your lust and avoid all temptations of porn in order to avoid eating pussy? Explains a lot.
23
@20 Loveschild, are you saying that pornography is the gateway literature to Giovanni's Room in the same way marijuana is the gateway drug to heroin?
24
Also, Loveschild I note with some amusement your ordering of Nero's worsening depravation: incest, leading to bisexuality, with the ultimate finally worst: homosexuality.
25
20, You make up this crap because you know you can't argue your case based on the truth. Lying is against your religion, is it not? (More proof that you don't actually follow the Bible, you just find scriptures to attack others.)
26
@20 No amount of porn could lead me to touch a kassloppuss. None.
I don't think you could put more unsubstantiated crap in one post, but I'm sure you will manage to outdo yourself.
I don't think you could put more unsubstantiated crap in one post, but I'm sure you will manage to outdo yourself.
27
If the anti-sex people had even the smallest validity to their constant railing against masturbation, to give just one example, pretty much every male and most females would be hairy-palmed and blind.
And I wouldn't be able to see to type this.
And I wouldn't be able to see to type this.
28
@20: You know, the irony is that the homosexuality -- if Nero was the dominant partner -- was probably the least objectionable of those indulgences in Roman eyes. Marrying his sister was pretty fucking gross, and so was stealing another man's lawful wife.
I kind of like that though. Nero -- the man who had the blood of his own sister/wife, his mother, and his second, pregnant wife on his hands -- did it because of *pornography.* Sounds like someone has a stirring paper to present to the next classicist symposium.
I kind of like that though. Nero -- the man who had the blood of his own sister/wife, his mother, and his second, pregnant wife on his hands -- did it because of *pornography.* Sounds like someone has a stirring paper to present to the next classicist symposium.
29
Thing is, these idiotic nutjobs have always been around. What's changed is that the Internet, great equalizer that it is, has taken them out of rural isolation and given them a means of organizing and disseminating their lunacy to the world.
Damn these Internets! Damn them all!
Damn these Internets! Damn them all!
30
24 I just listed Nero's depraved acts in the order in which he committed them.
History doesn't lie, go and look for yourself.
History doesn't lie, go and look for yourself.
31
Loveschild: As ALWAYS, please to actually present us with proof of your "experts" and their research? What? They don't actually exist? Liar, liar pants on fire. God hates you for your lies, Loveschild. You're going to burn.
32
30, Lovechild, Nero didn't do the things he did because of pornography. Why do you you have to resort to lying?
33
First off:
Been playin with it since before I became self-aware,
Been jerkin on it since it first could grow hair.
....Nope, still hetero.
Second, Loveschild, do you know how many great leaders were "disgusting" by your "Christian" moral standards? Did you know that a homosexual broke the Nazi codes (helping the allies DEFEAT THE THIRD FUCKING REICH) and (arguably) invented the computer? Did you know the guy who got sucked off by an intern in the Whitehouse did better than his vanilla successor?
Also, of course most sick bastards have looked at porn. Most people in the industrialized world have looked at porn. That's like saying most murderers in the US are Christian.
Been playin with it since before I became self-aware,
Been jerkin on it since it first could grow hair.
....Nope, still hetero.
Second, Loveschild, do you know how many great leaders were "disgusting" by your "Christian" moral standards? Did you know that a homosexual broke the Nazi codes (helping the allies DEFEAT THE THIRD FUCKING REICH) and (arguably) invented the computer? Did you know the guy who got sucked off by an intern in the Whitehouse did better than his vanilla successor?
Also, of course most sick bastards have looked at porn. Most people in the industrialized world have looked at porn. That's like saying most murderers in the US are Christian.
35
@33, as are most of their victims. Why isn't anybody doing anything to stop the spread of Christian-on-Christian crime? Think of the children!
36
Funny, I remember as a kid, some other kid told me that the definition of "gay" is somebody who likes to look at naked women. I therefore assumed I was totally gay and did not understand why that was an insult. Eventually I looked it up in the dictionary and discovered the correct definition.
37
28 Maybe he didn't do the immoral and criminal acts he did due to pornography directly though his empire had plenty of it (by way of the "arts") and as you rightfully hinted on, encorage it. But he clearly began his descend into complete depravity by the sexual acts he engaged in, followed by another and another. He never was satisfied and needed to be more abominable. In that way Nero's depravity channeled his sexual drive more and more inwards just as Schwartz remarked (concerning the viewing of all pornography) and thats how he ended up engaging in incest with his mother and sister and homosexual acts and gay marriage not once but three times. The first to a young boy he had castrated, the second to a freedman and the third to a perverted gang member.
38
So, LC were you just "repressing your lust" when you decided to make three babies out-of-wedlock?
40
Most of the craziness and depravity of the latter Roman Emperors had a lot to do with lead poisoning, not porn. The Romans were brilliant engineers, but didn't realize it was a bad idea to use lead in their viaducts. In fact, the word "plumbing" comes from the Latin word for lead.
41
@37: Guess what, some really vanilla people look at porn, too -- and they have vanilla sex with their wedded partners. Some people don't look at porn and they rape their children. Your anecdotes are baseless and useless. SHOW US SOME PROPERLY RESEARCHED PROOF OF ANY OF THIS!!!
Did you actually get an education? Can you define "education"?
Did you actually get an education? Can you define "education"?
43
@ 37,
And that's why Catullus and many other Romans went on raping and killing sprees... I mean within their own empire. By the way, those arts (no need for scare-quotes) were not so much erotic as they were comical. Most of the goofy position paintings were for a good laugh at a bawdy joke. Who doesn't laugh when they see the Pompeian fresco of Priapus weighing his enormous dick against a platter of food?
And that's why Catullus and many other Romans went on raping and killing sprees... I mean within their own empire. By the way, those arts (no need for scare-quotes) were not so much erotic as they were comical. Most of the goofy position paintings were for a good laugh at a bawdy joke. Who doesn't laugh when they see the Pompeian fresco of Priapus weighing his enormous dick against a platter of food?
44
i posted this, and one of my gay friends responded:
"Thanks for posting this. Now I know what to get all my hot, straight guy friends for X-mas."
"Thanks for posting this. Now I know what to get all my hot, straight guy friends for X-mas."
45
@34: Hmm? You're right; I forgot to specify that Octavia was his stepsister, and that's not strict incest. But he did seduce Poppaea Sabina from her husband. And he did kill Octavia, Agrippina, and Poppaea Sabina.
Still, I'm not sure if I *confused* Nero and Caligula. I don't think Caligula actually ever married any of his sisters. But correct me if I'm wrong.
Still, I'm not sure if I *confused* Nero and Caligula. I don't think Caligula actually ever married any of his sisters. But correct me if I'm wrong.
46
What really pisses most of us of about the homophobic extremist radical right is that they try to break as many of God's COMMANDments as they can.
And then expect praise when they LIE about it.
And then expect praise when they LIE about it.
48
Loveschild, your husband looks at porn. Lots of it.
Also, the only western government in the 20th century to really crack down on immorality and nationalize christianity was nazi germany, by way of a concordat with the Holy See and subsequent morality acts. They also murdered thousands of gay germans under the directive of this new nationalist-religious government headed by a man who touted "pure marriage" and "true marriage" under the banner of a unified christian nation and frequently made sweeping speeches about how unchristian elements were attempting to destroy germany. His goal in this "pure marriage" was the systematic erasure of "un-german" features and the strengthening of the bloodline. He thought that by barring certain unions he would forge a new master race.
This is why folks gloss over the history of nazi germany, because christianist supremacy is complicit in most of what they did as a regime. Forget all the David Barton-esque revisions and stare history in the face like a mirror, Loveschild.
Godwin FTW.
Also, the only western government in the 20th century to really crack down on immorality and nationalize christianity was nazi germany, by way of a concordat with the Holy See and subsequent morality acts. They also murdered thousands of gay germans under the directive of this new nationalist-religious government headed by a man who touted "pure marriage" and "true marriage" under the banner of a unified christian nation and frequently made sweeping speeches about how unchristian elements were attempting to destroy germany. His goal in this "pure marriage" was the systematic erasure of "un-german" features and the strengthening of the bloodline. He thought that by barring certain unions he would forge a new master race.
This is why folks gloss over the history of nazi germany, because christianist supremacy is complicit in most of what they did as a regime. Forget all the David Barton-esque revisions and stare history in the face like a mirror, Loveschild.
Godwin FTW.
49
@48 baconcat
I thought Loveschild already admitted that she is a single mother who has never been married.
But yes, its a guarantee that without the assistance of porn, Loveschild would have never gotten any. Who would want to fuck such a bitter arrogant idiot unless they were imagining someone else?
I thought Loveschild already admitted that she is a single mother who has never been married.
But yes, its a guarantee that without the assistance of porn, Loveschild would have never gotten any. Who would want to fuck such a bitter arrogant idiot unless they were imagining someone else?
50
@36
That's awesome! I had a similar goofy confusion as a kid. On the playground, some kid told me that "privates" were called a "penis" and so I thought I had a penis for a good long time. Until one day my little female friend and I were changing into bathing suits before a swim and I told her to look away so we didn't see each others' penises. She totally laughed at me and I was completely perplexed. Very humiliating.
That's awesome! I had a similar goofy confusion as a kid. On the playground, some kid told me that "privates" were called a "penis" and so I thought I had a penis for a good long time. Until one day my little female friend and I were changing into bathing suits before a swim and I told her to look away so we didn't see each others' penises. She totally laughed at me and I was completely perplexed. Very humiliating.
51
By this token, 100% of the world's population should be gay. w00h00! Well, except for hetero absolute losers.
52
"All porn is gay" is just something he tells himself while he is furiously pulling it to pictures of two dudes sucking each other off. After all, if all porn is gay, and as we know,all dudes like porn, it is not so bad that he spanks it to gay porn. He is weak, but no weaker than the guys out there spanking it to straight porn. The problem is not that he is a tormented closet case, but that he is just weak in face of porn like a lot of men.
53
@ LC, I'm trying to figure out how an example citing Emperor Nero is supportive of the original argument that modern pornography leads to (among other things), homosexuality (???)
The article/piece/quote referenced Playboy as a source of the sexual degradation/immorality. However, you write about an emperor who lived say 1500 years ago who never saw a "Playboy" or any modern form of pornography as your supportive argument?
Unless you have retrieved copies of Nero's porno's and have them for "Show & Tell", please explain.
The article/piece/quote referenced Playboy as a source of the sexual degradation/immorality. However, you write about an emperor who lived say 1500 years ago who never saw a "Playboy" or any modern form of pornography as your supportive argument?
Unless you have retrieved copies of Nero's porno's and have them for "Show & Tell", please explain.
54
@53, finding Nero's porn stash would be one hell of an archaeological discovery! As fiction, somebody should pitch this idea to Larry Flynt.
55
53 It can also be argued that even when watching straight porn, men who view it are also watching the naked bodies of the men who are engaged in sexual acts with the women. Viewing such images time after time as in the case of addictions has to incite some type of reaction on the psyche of such men who view it, even if at first they just view it to see the women. That's what pornography even straight, does. It desensitizes those who watch it and spikes their drive into the unthinkable and harmful. And that's the correlation many see with the life of someone like Nero.
38 I didn't had my children out of wedlock, I had my first a year latter after my civil and religious wedding.
38 I didn't had my children out of wedlock, I had my first a year latter after my civil and religious wedding.
56
sounds about right to me... I liked looking at naked ladies at 11, and now I'm a lesbian. *thumbs up*
58
Does that mean I'm not a straight girl, but a gay man? HALLELUJAH! Point me to the nearest leather club!
59
If masturbation causes men to be gay, ALL men would be gay except the Pope (and well, he does have his own room at the Vatican so who knows?).
Even Jerry and George in the masturbation episode on Seinfeld knew this.
Even Jerry and George in the masturbation episode on Seinfeld knew this.
60
Okay LC (Re:55),
So your argument is that desensitization will/can lead to a sex drive causing "unthinkable" and "harmful" behaviors...and that that is similar to Nero...I get it.
Except that if "desensitization" is your argument, you don't need a reference Nero to make your case (!!)...rather, you can use all sorts of current trends to support your view using males from the 21st century :) Remember, your argument is that modern pornography causes said desensitization and subsequent moral decay (i.e. "homosexuality").
LC, you should be able to make your case (which you haven't) without relating to a random 1500 year old emperor in the abstract.
So your argument is that desensitization will/can lead to a sex drive causing "unthinkable" and "harmful" behaviors...and that that is similar to Nero...I get it.
Except that if "desensitization" is your argument, you don't need a reference Nero to make your case (!!)...rather, you can use all sorts of current trends to support your view using males from the 21st century :) Remember, your argument is that modern pornography causes said desensitization and subsequent moral decay (i.e. "homosexuality").
LC, you should be able to make your case (which you haven't) without relating to a random 1500 year old emperor in the abstract.
61
So how old were you when you got married, LC? You have claimed the following over the last several months:
1)Three kids, the first born a year after you were married in a civil and religious ceremony.
2)The two eldest are boys, both over six feet tall and dating. The third is a girl.
3)That your in your 20s.
And, so you don't feel vulnerable.
1) I married in my 20s and had my first child 1 1/2 years into our marriage.
2) My oldest child is 14 and is 5'7" tall, and the youngest who is 11 is 5'4".
1)Three kids, the first born a year after you were married in a civil and religious ceremony.
2)The two eldest are boys, both over six feet tall and dating. The third is a girl.
3)That your in your 20s.
And, so you don't feel vulnerable.
1) I married in my 20s and had my first child 1 1/2 years into our marriage.
2) My oldest child is 14 and is 5'7" tall, and the youngest who is 11 is 5'4".
62
They told me masturbating would make me go blind. I figured I'd just do it till I needed glasses.
63
See, I told you fundies were demented abstinence-only, virginity pledging loony tunes out to ruin sex for everyone. I told you!
66
Sargon Bighorn @1, it's significantly more comfortable to imagine that these statements by Fagan, Spalding Schwartz and Coburn are calculated lies to move forward a well thought agenda, rather than the alternative, that they are, rather, the mad ravings of fools who are unknowingly pulling our society towards repression the like a panicked horse to its burning stable. The former scenario is not only optimistic, but gives these men the benefit of the doubt.
We've seen this kind of mix before. The Discovery Institute scholars, for example, really believe in the Christian dogma they're trying to promote, and work diligently to create a scientifically sound model that fits with those beliefs. However, they also lie, calculatedly so, to the academic sectors in order to deny this intent, since it's bad form to pursue theories non-objectively, i.e. with the intent of pursuing a specific agenda.
The abstenance only sex education programs in the US already use intentional deception (exaggerating risks of STI vectors and symptoms and misrepresenting the ineffectiveness of contrceptive measures) to create fear-based incentives for our adolescents to abstain from experimentation with their own sexuality, very much the way educational campaigns during the 1980's to discourage experimentation with drugs exaggerated the symptoms and dangers of various substances. Both these campaigns have created a backfire effect when students gained access to more accurate facts and statistics. The additional discovery that primary school history courses are extremely revisionist (about which the History Channel has been capitalizing since it went on the air) has elevated student distrust of primary school curricula to an all time high. The good news is the smart ones are learning to think critically at an early age. The bad news is they aren't the ones trading STIs like they were Pokémon cards.
Sorry about the double post.
More...
We've seen this kind of mix before. The Discovery Institute scholars, for example, really believe in the Christian dogma they're trying to promote, and work diligently to create a scientifically sound model that fits with those beliefs. However, they also lie, calculatedly so, to the academic sectors in order to deny this intent, since it's bad form to pursue theories non-objectively, i.e. with the intent of pursuing a specific agenda.
The abstenance only sex education programs in the US already use intentional deception (exaggerating risks of STI vectors and symptoms and misrepresenting the ineffectiveness of contrceptive measures) to create fear-based incentives for our adolescents to abstain from experimentation with their own sexuality, very much the way educational campaigns during the 1980's to discourage experimentation with drugs exaggerated the symptoms and dangers of various substances. Both these campaigns have created a backfire effect when students gained access to more accurate facts and statistics. The additional discovery that primary school history courses are extremely revisionist (about which the History Channel has been capitalizing since it went on the air) has elevated student distrust of primary school curricula to an all time high. The good news is the smart ones are learning to think critically at an early age. The bad news is they aren't the ones trading STIs like they were Pokémon cards.
Sorry about the double post.
67
Um mm... If looking at naked women make people gay, then what happens to the women that are being looked at? Do women all become gay by default. If so then we're all gay.
Oh, and I'm going to have to take down that nude I have hanging on my bedroom wall ...
Oh, and I'm going to have to take down that nude I have hanging on my bedroom wall ...
68
How come all men aren't gay, Dan? I can only speak for myself: when I was a boy, porno had Ron Jeremy in it.
69
@52 I think you're dead-on. My husband said almost the same thing when I read Dan's post to him: That this guy is a closet case, but surely he wasn't born gay. It was teh evil pr0n that inflicted this hideous malady on him. We like your version even better.
And didn't anyone else think it was funny that Schwartz thinks eleven year olds in 2009 get their porn from copies of Playboy? Don't repubs know that the internet is for porn? Sheesh.
And didn't anyone else think it was funny that Schwartz thinks eleven year olds in 2009 get their porn from copies of Playboy? Don't repubs know that the internet is for porn? Sheesh.
70
I don't think porn makes you gay, but i do think it messes you up in the head. I really think everyone's first real sexual experience should be with a person that they know, not a computer/magazine/whatever. That has serious mess-up potential.
Anyway, be more respectful to Loveschild. Forums/politics/LIFE seriously suck when there's only one opinion around. While I don't agree with her about homosexuality being a depravity or whatever, I really think there's a lot to be said for living according to moral standards, as long as you're not using them to hide other motives (i.e. taking a vow of chastity to conceal homosexuality) or inflicting it on other people (entering an open debate doesn't count). Whatever the moral code is is up to you, but everyone should have one.
Anyway, be more respectful to Loveschild. Forums/politics/LIFE seriously suck when there's only one opinion around. While I don't agree with her about homosexuality being a depravity or whatever, I really think there's a lot to be said for living according to moral standards, as long as you're not using them to hide other motives (i.e. taking a vow of chastity to conceal homosexuality) or inflicting it on other people (entering an open debate doesn't count). Whatever the moral code is is up to you, but everyone should have one.
71
So in order for straight porn to make you gay, gay porn (the opposite of straight porn) needs to make you the opposite of gay. So gay porn makes you straight and straight porn makes you gay.
Quick, Loveschild! Go get some lesbian porn before it's too late and you become one of the queers! Run!
Quick, Loveschild! Go get some lesbian porn before it's too late and you become one of the queers! Run!
72
Often, when I read these kind of posts , I have a cold sweat.
Not because of the fallacious arguments , but the realization that a majority of the american people is afraid of sex, not just of the act but of the pleasure you derive from such act.
I would consider a mass therapy , pleasure is nice, sex is nice ,therefore pleasure from sex is nice
Not because of the fallacious arguments , but the realization that a majority of the american people is afraid of sex, not just of the act but of the pleasure you derive from such act.
I would consider a mass therapy , pleasure is nice, sex is nice ,therefore pleasure from sex is nice
73
Snickerdoodly porn may mess with the heads of a small cluster, but I would wager fewer than those messed up by the violence we take for granted in today's media (including the evening news). I would say that fewer still would be affected by porn if US society wasn't so uptight about human sexuality in the first place.
While I'd be the first to point out that correlation and causality are not necessarily related, while our access to porn has become widespread, sex related crimes (e.g. rape, sexual assault, child predation, etc.) have gone through the floor. Indeed, this suggests quite the opposite of what has been the usual rhetoric against porn since the '60s, that being: porn increases sex related crime.
While the conservative right still think this is the case, some on the radical left think quite the opposite is occurring, that men are losing interest in real sex for porn (and to the discovery that we, as sexual creatures sometimes do, in fact, want to be objectified). Since not everyone (myself included) didn't have a cool female friend with whom to experiment, sexually, some of us had to rely on porn to figure out what the heck was going on with our brains.
As for opposing opinions, I welcome them, when they're based on reason and backed by relevant data. I don't think citing Nero Claudius Caesar makes for a strong example on the perils of pornography; not only was Nero's taste (or distaste) for porn not well documented, not only was there a pronounced cultural difference in how nudity and sexuality were/are regarded in classical Rome and the contemporary US, not only is the body of historical texts on Nero clearly biased against depicting him well, thanks to the politics of the era, but he's one guy in history. Show me a civilization that fell to the corrupting power of porn, and we'll talk.
A good example might be the Ottoman Empire, since The Cage was introduced as an alternative to post-succession fratricide. The cage was essentially imprisonment in paradise, and those so confined, though never short of women, wine and sport, would still go crazy over time. It didn't bode well for the occasions when a prisoner had to be extracted to come out and rule. But I think the problem was confinement, moral decay (being spoiled stupid) and a lack of experience or education in civics, not their access to The Illustrated Kama Sutra.
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While I'd be the first to point out that correlation and causality are not necessarily related, while our access to porn has become widespread, sex related crimes (e.g. rape, sexual assault, child predation, etc.) have gone through the floor. Indeed, this suggests quite the opposite of what has been the usual rhetoric against porn since the '60s, that being: porn increases sex related crime.
While the conservative right still think this is the case, some on the radical left think quite the opposite is occurring, that men are losing interest in real sex for porn (and to the discovery that we, as sexual creatures sometimes do, in fact, want to be objectified). Since not everyone (myself included) didn't have a cool female friend with whom to experiment, sexually, some of us had to rely on porn to figure out what the heck was going on with our brains.
As for opposing opinions, I welcome them, when they're based on reason and backed by relevant data. I don't think citing Nero Claudius Caesar makes for a strong example on the perils of pornography; not only was Nero's taste (or distaste) for porn not well documented, not only was there a pronounced cultural difference in how nudity and sexuality were/are regarded in classical Rome and the contemporary US, not only is the body of historical texts on Nero clearly biased against depicting him well, thanks to the politics of the era, but he's one guy in history. Show me a civilization that fell to the corrupting power of porn, and we'll talk.
A good example might be the Ottoman Empire, since The Cage was introduced as an alternative to post-succession fratricide. The cage was essentially imprisonment in paradise, and those so confined, though never short of women, wine and sport, would still go crazy over time. It didn't bode well for the occasions when a prisoner had to be extracted to come out and rule. But I think the problem was confinement, moral decay (being spoiled stupid) and a lack of experience or education in civics, not their access to The Illustrated Kama Sutra.
74
Boobies make you gay? Excellent! All the kids should stop reading that smutty, SMUTTY bible RIGHT THIS INSTANT.
To wit:
"Behold, thou art fair, my love;
behold, thou art fair...
"Thy lips are like a thread of scarlet,
and thy speech is comely:
thy temples are like a piece of a pomegranate within thy locks.
"Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins,
which feed among the lilies."
(Song of Solomon 4.1a, 3, 5, King James version.)
To wit:
"Behold, thou art fair, my love;
behold, thou art fair...
"Thy lips are like a thread of scarlet,
and thy speech is comely:
thy temples are like a piece of a pomegranate within thy locks.
"Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins,
which feed among the lilies."
(Song of Solomon 4.1a, 3, 5, King James version.)
75
@70: We'll be more respectful towards Lovechild when she stops being a hate-mongering bigot. Until that happens I prefer to ignore her posts, because they're boring and predictable.
76
Loveschild, you make the teabaggers look downright intelligent and informed. Your wacky claims have the validity of calling Obama Hitler. You have no concept of world history, or psychology. Your severe lack of education is showing here. You can't actually make arguments based in logic or truth, so you just make stuff up. Nero didn't do the things he did because of porn, and there is absolutely no evidence that viewing porn will make someone homosexual. Honestly, why do you need to resort to lying? You only look to the Bible to attack others and ignore what you don't want to follow. (Such as the 9th Commandment.)
77
Ridiculous assertion of porn leading to gayness aside, I am fascinated that the latest fear-mongering attack is on "turning inward." It has long been held by philosophers and religions that "turning inward" in meditation and in prayer leads people to the discovery of the truth that lies within their souls*. In other words, that although people may lie to you in the outer world, your inner soul will never lie to you. It would appear that those who lie are afraid of the truth that people will discover if they turn inward and are attempting to fear them away from such discovery.
* In the modern genetic sense it can also be said that our genes actually contain an inner wisdom as well, that has been shaped and refined by evolution.
* In the modern genetic sense it can also be said that our genes actually contain an inner wisdom as well, that has been shaped and refined by evolution.
79
You guys, don't you see the logic here? I'll demonstrate on my friend Susie.
1. Susie likes autoerotic stimulation, i.e., having sex with herself, i.e, Susie(x) likes having sex with Susie(y).
2. Susie (x) and Susie(y) are the same person.
3. Therefore they are the same sex.
4. Therefore Susie is gay.
1. Susie likes autoerotic stimulation, i.e., having sex with herself, i.e, Susie(x) likes having sex with Susie(y).
2. Susie (x) and Susie(y) are the same person.
3. Therefore they are the same sex.
4. Therefore Susie is gay.
81
The real key to Schwartz's real meaning came in a comment he made a bit earlier, in an observation about 11-year-old boys:
"They speak badly about homosexuality. And that’s because they don’t want to be that way. They don’t want to fall into it."
Why do they speak badly about homosexuality? Religion. They were already "taught" that it was "bad," wrong, sinful and deviant.
"They speak badly about homosexuality. And that’s because they don’t want to be that way. They don’t want to fall into it."
Why do they speak badly about homosexuality? Religion. They were already "taught" that it was "bad," wrong, sinful and deviant.
82
Long ago, sex was dangerous, as its negative consequences- disease and unwanted pregnancy- could not be controlled. But now we can control those things- pregnancy can be prevented or safely aborted, condoms protect us from AIDS if we use them, and bacterial STDs can be cured with antibiotics. But these morons refuse to see progress for what it is and try to drag us all back to a medieval sexual culture, and for all kinds of stupid reasons that fall apart at the lightest touch of the truth.
83
I really think everyone's first real sexual experience should be with a person that they know, not a computer/magazine/whatever. That has serious mess-up potential.
@70: I agree with you that porn does not help kids develop realistic, healthy ideas about sex. The problem, though, isn't that kids are finding porn (which they've been doing since the beginning of time), but that they aren't receiving any messages from parents or other trusted figures about sex beyond "don't do it." WHAT THE FUCK IS 'IT?'
Fortunately, my first sexual experience was with National Geographic, like a normal person.
84
this post made me sad. i am almost certain they really believe this because i've known so many people who honestly do. but i have a hard time believing they actually didn't masturbate when young... i think they did, but now think it was wrong. so they are trying to pass on their "wisdom" based on experience to others, and possible creating very real problems for those 11 year old boys who believe what they say is true.
87
That's awesome. I've always secretly wanted to be gay. Now that I'm gay, does that mean that I can get laid whenever I want? This is going to be good...
89
Thank you #70 and #83.
Unfortunately, this article is yet another example of (what I see) as people concerned with porn for the wrong reasons.
Human sexuality should not be shameful. It upsets me that anti-porn folks like these seem to be concerned about exploration of sexuality, when really we should be concerned about what effect this has on the people who perform in this industry, the viewers who objectify the hot (mostly female) bodies, think violence (mostly toward females) in sex is ok, lose sexual creativity and seek Pavlovian-type orgasmic responses to porn, etc, etc, etc. I could keep going.
I'm all for healthy sexuality. I just don't happen to think that includes porn.
In my book: Yes to masturbation, yes to gay sex, yes to education...no to porn and no to ridiculous conservative claims.
Not trying to change anyone's mind (I'm sure there's some of you out there that could show me examples of non-violent, non-objectifying, person-celebrating porn); just my humble, feminist opinion that most porn out there seems pretty awful to humankind.
Unfortunately, this article is yet another example of (what I see) as people concerned with porn for the wrong reasons.
Human sexuality should not be shameful. It upsets me that anti-porn folks like these seem to be concerned about exploration of sexuality, when really we should be concerned about what effect this has on the people who perform in this industry, the viewers who objectify the hot (mostly female) bodies, think violence (mostly toward females) in sex is ok, lose sexual creativity and seek Pavlovian-type orgasmic responses to porn, etc, etc, etc. I could keep going.
I'm all for healthy sexuality. I just don't happen to think that includes porn.
In my book: Yes to masturbation, yes to gay sex, yes to education...no to porn and no to ridiculous conservative claims.
Not trying to change anyone's mind (I'm sure there's some of you out there that could show me examples of non-violent, non-objectifying, person-celebrating porn); just my humble, feminist opinion that most porn out there seems pretty awful to humankind.
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