Slog
News & ArtsFriday, September 18, 2009
Sex Weird!
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 11:01 AM
So a straight couple was having sex in public—well, in a dumpster—in Wichita, Kansas, and they were robbed at knifepoint and the weirdest thing happened when they went to the police. The police tracked down the suspects and returned the couple's property to them (shoes, jewelry and a wallet). The police didn't arrest the couple or raid every dumpster in town looking for other couples having quasi-public sex—you know, like the police in Atlanta would. Weird!
1
Dan, when you fall into the shitpit of an outhouse you don't use a shovel to keep digging deeper. ask someone to throw you a rope and climb out.
4
Stupid fucking cops! Doing their jobs! How DARE they?!?!?!
Don't they have better things to do?
God, that pisses me off when they fail to live up to strawman stereotypes, in order to prove a failed point.
Fuck those pigs.
Don't they have better things to do?
God, that pisses me off when they fail to live up to strawman stereotypes, in order to prove a failed point.
Fuck those pigs.
7
Yeah, let's go raid all the dumpsters in town. Because that is so likely to turn up people having sex.
11
It has been a week since Slog was hysterically alerted that police thugs in Atlanta were harrassing teh geys based on a single (and apparently PHONY) phone tip about drug use.
Did you girls dutifully phone in your bogus tips as Dan suggested to teach those homophobic rednecks a lesson?
Come to find out the "raid" was the culmination of a five month investigation spent pains-takingly collecting information about public sex in the bar, an investigation prompted by several detailed and knowledgable written tips probably provided by a gay patron of the Eagle, and that the blogging homosexual community in Atlanta verifies that the alleged illegal behavior is and has been rampant.
Oh my!
One can't help but wonder if taking the "flaming asshole bitch" approach when virtually none of the facts were known and accusing the mayor; who Dan knows to be gay-friendly; of being an anti-gay bigot was the wisest and most productive course available.
One can't help but wonder if expressing concern about the initial allegations but also expressing confidence that the Mayor would see to it that the right thing was done and giving the Mayor a chance to do the right thing and supporting her in those actions might have been more productive and nurtured and encouraged an ally.
The latter approach would have the added benefit of avoiding the spectacle of walking around for a week with egg dripping off our face.
Did you girls dutifully phone in your bogus tips as Dan suggested to teach those homophobic rednecks a lesson?
Come to find out the "raid" was the culmination of a five month investigation spent pains-takingly collecting information about public sex in the bar, an investigation prompted by several detailed and knowledgable written tips probably provided by a gay patron of the Eagle, and that the blogging homosexual community in Atlanta verifies that the alleged illegal behavior is and has been rampant.
Oh my!
One can't help but wonder if taking the "flaming asshole bitch" approach when virtually none of the facts were known and accusing the mayor; who Dan knows to be gay-friendly; of being an anti-gay bigot was the wisest and most productive course available.
One can't help but wonder if expressing concern about the initial allegations but also expressing confidence that the Mayor would see to it that the right thing was done and giving the Mayor a chance to do the right thing and supporting her in those actions might have been more productive and nurtured and encouraged an ally.
The latter approach would have the added benefit of avoiding the spectacle of walking around for a week with egg dripping off our face.
15
@4: Failed point of what, exactly? Nobody has shown how this raid wasn't part of the APD's "culture of misconduct" or "widespread corruption", and nobody has bothered to acknowledge that the APD has refused to release an FBI report on the same. And people ignore that the cops were high-fiving and dropping "F" bombs and abusing the detained even after not finding a single drug or open warrant.
Dan's point, I think, is that the APD seems to be using the old saw of "gay bars are full of drugs and sex" based on a pair of complaints from the same person. Arguing that the APD has raided other places does not refute that notion, since the places raided seem to have been under similarly hackneyed stereotypes, like busting a strip club for prostitution.
And nobody is saying these bars are innocent, but it's a terrible waste of resources to investigate and raid a place when you could arrest people on the spot. That they went and arrested a guy in his own apartment seems to mesh well with the idea that they have quotas and are prone to falling back on old stereotypes to fill in gaps.
Take a look at this: http://www.ajc.com/news/140803.html?cxnt…
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution is looking at the failings of the APD this sunday, including their seeming over-focus on things like their vice squad.
Guess the cops in Wichita could teach the APD a thing or two about doing their job.
Dan's point, I think, is that the APD seems to be using the old saw of "gay bars are full of drugs and sex" based on a pair of complaints from the same person. Arguing that the APD has raided other places does not refute that notion, since the places raided seem to have been under similarly hackneyed stereotypes, like busting a strip club for prostitution.
And nobody is saying these bars are innocent, but it's a terrible waste of resources to investigate and raid a place when you could arrest people on the spot. That they went and arrested a guy in his own apartment seems to mesh well with the idea that they have quotas and are prone to falling back on old stereotypes to fill in gaps.
Take a look at this: http://www.ajc.com/news/140803.html?cxnt…
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution is looking at the failings of the APD this sunday, including their seeming over-focus on things like their vice squad.
Guess the cops in Wichita could teach the APD a thing or two about doing their job.
18
@15 All your points are valid and well-expressed, which is more than can be said for Dan's treatment of this subject, which has been patronizing, snarky, overly simplistic, and deliberately provocative.
It is that last point, deliberate provocation, that irritates me most.
Comparing this event to a police crackdown on a stadium?
Reframing the police raid on a public place as a matter of home invasion (with no discussion of how the warrant was written, the layout of the building, or the zoning issues that would declare one area public and another private).
Now he's using entirely different events from an entirely different city in order to frame an "us versus them" argument on public sex being prosecuted solely based on the sexuality of the culprits?
The goddamn TROLLS provided more insight into the actual events of that evening, by at least pointing to other media sources and their discussions.
I get that a lot of people are angry about this. I can see where this has a place in a discussion of civil rights, persecution of minorities, and police corruption.
I don't deny the cops acted like homophobic jackasses during the raid. But I strongly disagree that a case can be made that this bar was somehow singled out beforehand, based on the sexuality of the clientele.
It is that last point, deliberate provocation, that irritates me most.
Comparing this event to a police crackdown on a stadium?
Reframing the police raid on a public place as a matter of home invasion (with no discussion of how the warrant was written, the layout of the building, or the zoning issues that would declare one area public and another private).
Now he's using entirely different events from an entirely different city in order to frame an "us versus them" argument on public sex being prosecuted solely based on the sexuality of the culprits?
The goddamn TROLLS provided more insight into the actual events of that evening, by at least pointing to other media sources and their discussions.
I get that a lot of people are angry about this. I can see where this has a place in a discussion of civil rights, persecution of minorities, and police corruption.
I don't deny the cops acted like homophobic jackasses during the raid. But I strongly disagree that a case can be made that this bar was somehow singled out beforehand, based on the sexuality of the clientele.
19
@18: History proves time and again that there is a deliberate use of gay bars (along with places like strip clubs or hip hop-style clubs) for raids because it's easy to do so. It leans heavily on popular sentiment to basically make it sound okay on the outside, all the while they cover up the specifics of the case to drive home a narrative. In this case, they arrest people for trumped up charges to cover up for a lack of actual arrestable offenses. It fits in well with their purported quotas and corruption (which by all accounts is true from testimony in the trial surrounding the APD's murder of a grandmother in her 90s, but the APD refuses to release the FBI report that makes that case clear).
The trolls you cite are very interested in cherry-picking out details and commentary that deliberately run contrary to the history of the APD or the general culture of police raids. Hell, the modern GLBT movement was centered on a bar raid. Of course, the trolls you cite don't particularly care about anything, just that they can set people abuzz, and they are more specifically interested in discrediting Dan. Some because that's their pastime, and others because they wrongly thought Dan had insulted the mayor of Atlanta.
Feigning disbelief is silly at this point, especially when you yourself refer to the homophobic comments made by cops but then turn around and say you don't believe sexuality played any role in this raid. It doesn't pass the sniff test in any respect, and having been in raid situations before and having seen cops deliberately harass gay bars (like they do here in Seattle, coincidentally enough), I'm going to have to say I'm not quite buying the APD's story, here.
If you honestly believe that cops don't single out the GLBT community for an easy "get", then I've got a bridge to sell you. Otherwise, suspend your instant disbelief of Dan for a moment and take a second to doubt or reconsider the circumstances of this raid.
More...
The trolls you cite are very interested in cherry-picking out details and commentary that deliberately run contrary to the history of the APD or the general culture of police raids. Hell, the modern GLBT movement was centered on a bar raid. Of course, the trolls you cite don't particularly care about anything, just that they can set people abuzz, and they are more specifically interested in discrediting Dan. Some because that's their pastime, and others because they wrongly thought Dan had insulted the mayor of Atlanta.
Feigning disbelief is silly at this point, especially when you yourself refer to the homophobic comments made by cops but then turn around and say you don't believe sexuality played any role in this raid. It doesn't pass the sniff test in any respect, and having been in raid situations before and having seen cops deliberately harass gay bars (like they do here in Seattle, coincidentally enough), I'm going to have to say I'm not quite buying the APD's story, here.
If you honestly believe that cops don't single out the GLBT community for an easy "get", then I've got a bridge to sell you. Otherwise, suspend your instant disbelief of Dan for a moment and take a second to doubt or reconsider the circumstances of this raid.
20
Baconcat, at the risk of seeming patronizing, let me use some of your own words, that we may find common ground.
"they cover up the specifics of the case to drive home a narrative"
Right there. That's what's got my undies all in a twist on how this has been represented in the Slog. The deliberate framing of this event as an example of gay persecution, with not a mention made of the other clubs raided. An argument can be made that the city of Atlanta is more boner-phobic than homophobic, raiding the sources of male arousal, in general.
For that matter, the sweeping generalizations made on the city of Atlanta, based on this event, are disingenuous. From what I've read of their own gay blogs discussing this event, I am left with the impression that the city is far more open-minded than i would have imagined or given it credit for. That gets lost, replaced by that most irritating tendency of Seattleites, of shitting on every region of the country that is not... well, Seattle.
Comparing this to Stonewall is disappointing and, I feel, trivializes the drama and courage shown on THAT particular evening and its historical impact.
Again, I don't deny the shittiness of this whole affair, how the cops acted, and how the patrons were treated. It's a goddamn travesty. My grievance is with how Dan rushed to judgement, ignored pertinent details, maligned a city, and has resorted to pithy, sulking, stupid analogies, in order to defend his initial position that this was all about being gay.
"they cover up the specifics of the case to drive home a narrative"
Right there. That's what's got my undies all in a twist on how this has been represented in the Slog. The deliberate framing of this event as an example of gay persecution, with not a mention made of the other clubs raided. An argument can be made that the city of Atlanta is more boner-phobic than homophobic, raiding the sources of male arousal, in general.
For that matter, the sweeping generalizations made on the city of Atlanta, based on this event, are disingenuous. From what I've read of their own gay blogs discussing this event, I am left with the impression that the city is far more open-minded than i would have imagined or given it credit for. That gets lost, replaced by that most irritating tendency of Seattleites, of shitting on every region of the country that is not... well, Seattle.
Comparing this to Stonewall is disappointing and, I feel, trivializes the drama and courage shown on THAT particular evening and its historical impact.
Again, I don't deny the shittiness of this whole affair, how the cops acted, and how the patrons were treated. It's a goddamn travesty. My grievance is with how Dan rushed to judgement, ignored pertinent details, maligned a city, and has resorted to pithy, sulking, stupid analogies, in order to defend his initial position that this was all about being gay.
22
@20: You're reaching too far into your own incredulous perspective on this matter to come up with a defense, I think. Dan never said it was all about their sexuality, he just asked the question that would naturally come up in a bar raid like this, especially after the one in Fort Worth. As we found out more, we learned that while there were other raids, this one was particularly special on the following grounds:
1) People were detained for a long time, even after no drugs or contraband were found or sex acts witnessed
2) The tips came from someone well known in the community that carries a grudge against the bar
3) The neighborhood association vigorously denied claims of illicit activity spilling out into the streets
4) Southern Bears pointed out that this was not a "circuit party" or a "sex party" as the complaint alleges
5) Police used homophobic language and were especially rough against patrons
6) The police also acted with an extra large show of force, not typical of raids of this sort (using the RED DOG anti-drug unit, for example) and not displayed in other similar raids
7) The APD also pulled almost all of their available officers from the neighborhood, even though the neighborhood is increasingly violent and has been plagued with murders and shootings in the prior days
8) The APD went out of its way to not notify the GLBT liaison of this raid
9) The APD also detained people from an unrelated business and a private apartment located on the property
This is in light of a rash of raids in 2006, one in particular where the APD detained members of a leather social organization for having a private fundraiser and serving beer.
Just because the APD raids other establishments, and just because Atlanta is purportedly gay friendly, does not mean they did not commit this raid for the purposes of targeting an exploitable and easily-stereotyped group.
Dan's posting of "what if this happened at Safeco Field" and such is only in response to people being thick-headed and pulling the "Dan posted it, it must be wrong" card. He's done this before, as he did in light of Prop 8. That's how he rolls. People should know this by now.
Sorry, but yeah, people still do awful crap targeted specifically against gay folks. And women. And black folk. And asians. And old folks. And pretty much anyone. The world isn't sunshine and sparkles, sadly.
More...
1) People were detained for a long time, even after no drugs or contraband were found or sex acts witnessed
2) The tips came from someone well known in the community that carries a grudge against the bar
3) The neighborhood association vigorously denied claims of illicit activity spilling out into the streets
4) Southern Bears pointed out that this was not a "circuit party" or a "sex party" as the complaint alleges
5) Police used homophobic language and were especially rough against patrons
6) The police also acted with an extra large show of force, not typical of raids of this sort (using the RED DOG anti-drug unit, for example) and not displayed in other similar raids
7) The APD also pulled almost all of their available officers from the neighborhood, even though the neighborhood is increasingly violent and has been plagued with murders and shootings in the prior days
8) The APD went out of its way to not notify the GLBT liaison of this raid
9) The APD also detained people from an unrelated business and a private apartment located on the property
This is in light of a rash of raids in 2006, one in particular where the APD detained members of a leather social organization for having a private fundraiser and serving beer.
Just because the APD raids other establishments, and just because Atlanta is purportedly gay friendly, does not mean they did not commit this raid for the purposes of targeting an exploitable and easily-stereotyped group.
Dan's posting of "what if this happened at Safeco Field" and such is only in response to people being thick-headed and pulling the "Dan posted it, it must be wrong" card. He's done this before, as he did in light of Prop 8. That's how he rolls. People should know this by now.
Sorry, but yeah, people still do awful crap targeted specifically against gay folks. And women. And black folk. And asians. And old folks. And pretty much anyone. The world isn't sunshine and sparkles, sadly.
23
@22 Thank you, Baconcat. I mean that, completely without sarcasm, irony, or anything but sincerity.
I ask that you review the last three "Deep Thought" entries by Dan, including this one. Had even one of them read like what you just wrote (and in previous comments), we wouldn't be having this discussion.
I offer that I was not being deliberately incredulous, but simply trying to understand multiple perspectives of this event and to avoid generalizing anger to an entire city.
That said, I think we could all do without another "Deep Thought" entry like this one or the previous.
I ask that you review the last three "Deep Thought" entries by Dan, including this one. Had even one of them read like what you just wrote (and in previous comments), we wouldn't be having this discussion.
I offer that I was not being deliberately incredulous, but simply trying to understand multiple perspectives of this event and to avoid generalizing anger to an entire city.
That said, I think we could all do without another "Deep Thought" entry like this one or the previous.
24
It seems like Dan has sparked some really interesting conversation here. Maybe that was the point.
25
@23: It drives conversation, I think. One thing missed in all the "prop 8 was caused by black people, or was it?" threads was that people eventually realized that No on 8 did little to no outreach in the black community, and some folks further realized that it was likely due to the fact that nobody in No on 8 saw the black community as a particularly attainable vote or particularly powerful voting bloc. Which pretty much turned out to be the case and is something EQCA is working on.
And besides, what would Slog be without leading posts like this one?
And besides, what would Slog be without leading posts like this one?
26
@22
You're reaching too far into your own incredulous perspective on this matter to come up with an intelligent defense.
This raid was not at all special on the following grounds:
1) People were detained for a long time, even after no drugs or contraband were found or sex acts witnessed
>>>They were all checked for warrants. As was done in the other six heterosexual clubs raided in the past months by APD. Also undercover officers did witness sex acts the night of the raid.
2) The tips came from someone well known in the community that carries a grudge against the bar
>>That is speculation within the gay community and is not a basis to ignore the tips- the tipster knew a great deal of detail about the operation of the club, the tips were very credible and what was alleged in the tips was verified three different times by APD undercover and verified by numerous gay bloggers.
5) Police used homophobic language and were especially rough against patrons
>>These are subjective claims, the complaints filed after the incident are inconsistent, and, even if taken to be totally true are laughably silly.
6) The police also acted with an extra large show of force, not typical of raids of this sort (using the RED DOG anti-drug unit, for example) and not displayed in other similar raids
>>>You complain in #1 how long people were detained then complain too many officers were used. More officers means faster processing. Make up your mind. Red Dog was called in because the undercover cops feared patrons would doubt they were actually police, as in fact one of the filed complaints did. Again, make up your mind- scary Swat team that is clearly police or less scary undercover that may be confused for robbers. Also Red Dog WAS used in other club raids.
7) The APD also pulled almost all of their available officers from the neighborhood, even though the neighborhood is increasingly violent and has been plagued with murders and shootings in the prior days
>>>NO officers were pulled from neighborhood patrol. The raid was conducted by undercover vice and Red Dog.
8) The APD went out of its way to not notify the GLBT liaison of this raid.
>>>The decision to make arrests was based on what undercover officers witnessed the night of the raid. There was no advanced notice given or to give to anybody.
9) The APD also detained people from an unrelated business and a private apartment located on the property
>>>A leather shop under a leather bar, the very definition of 'unrelated', I guess.
advice:
1-pull your head out of your ass
2-quit pulling lame invented excuses out of your ass
More...
You're reaching too far into your own incredulous perspective on this matter to come up with an intelligent defense.
This raid was not at all special on the following grounds:
1) People were detained for a long time, even after no drugs or contraband were found or sex acts witnessed
>>>They were all checked for warrants. As was done in the other six heterosexual clubs raided in the past months by APD. Also undercover officers did witness sex acts the night of the raid.
2) The tips came from someone well known in the community that carries a grudge against the bar
>>That is speculation within the gay community and is not a basis to ignore the tips- the tipster knew a great deal of detail about the operation of the club, the tips were very credible and what was alleged in the tips was verified three different times by APD undercover and verified by numerous gay bloggers.
5) Police used homophobic language and were especially rough against patrons
>>These are subjective claims, the complaints filed after the incident are inconsistent, and, even if taken to be totally true are laughably silly.
6) The police also acted with an extra large show of force, not typical of raids of this sort (using the RED DOG anti-drug unit, for example) and not displayed in other similar raids
>>>You complain in #1 how long people were detained then complain too many officers were used. More officers means faster processing. Make up your mind. Red Dog was called in because the undercover cops feared patrons would doubt they were actually police, as in fact one of the filed complaints did. Again, make up your mind- scary Swat team that is clearly police or less scary undercover that may be confused for robbers. Also Red Dog WAS used in other club raids.
7) The APD also pulled almost all of their available officers from the neighborhood, even though the neighborhood is increasingly violent and has been plagued with murders and shootings in the prior days
>>>NO officers were pulled from neighborhood patrol. The raid was conducted by undercover vice and Red Dog.
8) The APD went out of its way to not notify the GLBT liaison of this raid.
>>>The decision to make arrests was based on what undercover officers witnessed the night of the raid. There was no advanced notice given or to give to anybody.
9) The APD also detained people from an unrelated business and a private apartment located on the property
>>>A leather shop under a leather bar, the very definition of 'unrelated', I guess.
advice:
1-pull your head out of your ass
2-quit pulling lame invented excuses out of your ass
27
Besides having excellent serial killers, Wichita definitely has the best dumpsters.
They usually have a bed of soft cardboard and plastic, with a gentle aroma of fermenting bananas and rotting meat.
I love having sex in them!
They usually have a bed of soft cardboard and plastic, with a gentle aroma of fermenting bananas and rotting meat.
I love having sex in them!
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