Slog
News & ArtsWednesday, September 16, 2009
Homo Deep Thought
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 2:53 PM
Is there a bed in your apartment? Do you sometimes have sex in it? Good thing you don't live in Atlanta.
5
On one hand, this sucks. But on the other hand, Atlanta has some great food and most of the folks in the city are aware the APD has severe problems and is on notice from the FBI, but they're trying to fix it from the outside! Mayor Franklin is a big supporter of getting the APD problem solved, too!
Respective of the above, I guess I'll just do it on the couch if I'm ever in Atlanta again.
Respective of the above, I guess I'll just do it on the couch if I'm ever in Atlanta again.
7
And now the deep-fried irony of this: Atlanta is where the case of Michael Hardwick originated. Hardwick, a gay guy, was arrested in his home back in 1986 for violating Georgia's sodomy law. He took the case (Hardwick v. Georgia) all the way to SCOTUS and, sadly, lost. This precedent was, of course, reversed by Lawrence v. Texas.
8
To the questions in your "deep" thought, please add the following:
Is your apartment located over a bar?
That's kind of an important qualifier here.
Is your apartment located over a bar?
That's kind of an important qualifier here.
9
@ #8 - Why would that be? The location of your residence does not change the fact that it is a PRIVATE residence. Don't be obtuse.
10
Cops need to respect private property.
And if they want to barrack troops, they can go get a frickin warrant from an activist appointed right wing judge.
And if they want to barrack troops, they can go get a frickin warrant from an activist appointed right wing judge.
11
@9 It matters. Especially if this place was a bar. Especially if this place had stripping, licensed or not.
Bars get raided. Strip bars get raided even more often.
Raids secure the premises and the apartment was on the premises.
It's not difficult to find a bar with a room upstairs. They have different names in different states, but escort bars, buy-me-drink bars, and companion bars are not uncommon.
I'm not defending the raids, nor the cops, nor any of what took place here.
But I am trying and failing to see how this is a gay issue and not just another bar raid.
Asshole cops? Sure. I'll buy that. Homophobic sting operation a la Stonewall? Not so sure about that.
Bars get raided. Strip bars get raided even more often.
Raids secure the premises and the apartment was on the premises.
It's not difficult to find a bar with a room upstairs. They have different names in different states, but escort bars, buy-me-drink bars, and companion bars are not uncommon.
I'm not defending the raids, nor the cops, nor any of what took place here.
But I am trying and failing to see how this is a gay issue and not just another bar raid.
Asshole cops? Sure. I'll buy that. Homophobic sting operation a la Stonewall? Not so sure about that.
12
All heteros should buy this for their car to show their support for Domestic Partnerships:
http://www.stupid.com/fun/IMNG.html
http://www.stupid.com/fun/IMNG.html
13
@ #11 - You aren't making any sense. You are being obtuse and are confusing the issue on purpose. There is no reason to believe that this man's PRIVATE RESIDENCE is a front for prostitution. Please, don't be an idiot...Slog if full of those.
14
@11 Plenty of businesses have apartments above them. Heck, one of the fricking bathhouses here in Denver has some apartments for rent on higher floors.
If the apartment (a) had a locking door (b) was actually an apartment (with bathroom, kitchen, etc.) and (c) had a separate entrance (which IIRC, the one over the Eagle in Atlanta does, although I haven't been there in a few years), then the cops had absolutely no business whatsoever going up there.
You'd have a point if it was just a room with a bed, particularly if it didn't have a proper lock on the door and it was readily accessible from the bar. Sounds like this was a real apartment.
Incidentally, if this was a real bar raid and not a gay thing, then why can't the cops figure out the "official" reason they were there in the first place? That strikes me as making it pretty likely that they had an unofficial reason to show up in force: to harass gay men.
If the apartment (a) had a locking door (b) was actually an apartment (with bathroom, kitchen, etc.) and (c) had a separate entrance (which IIRC, the one over the Eagle in Atlanta does, although I haven't been there in a few years), then the cops had absolutely no business whatsoever going up there.
You'd have a point if it was just a room with a bed, particularly if it didn't have a proper lock on the door and it was readily accessible from the bar. Sounds like this was a real apartment.
Incidentally, if this was a real bar raid and not a gay thing, then why can't the cops figure out the "official" reason they were there in the first place? That strikes me as making it pretty likely that they had an unofficial reason to show up in force: to harass gay men.
16
@14: I concede all your points. I think civil lawsuits are in order here, but lacking details of how the warrant was written (if at all), I don't think any of us can make the kind of sweeping conclusions Dan is driving towards.
The discussion in this thread (insults aside) treats the topic far more reasonably than Dan has.
The discussion in this thread (insults aside) treats the topic far more reasonably than Dan has.
17
Here's the thing that is bothering me. Since when do you give up all your rights just because you go to a public business? I can't figure out how it could be legal for the cops to do this to people just standing around in a bar. If you are not committing a crime in front of them, what right do they have to make you lie on the floor, rifle through your person, scream at you, make fun of you, etc.? I don't get this part. Would this ever happen in any business other than a bar? Could this happen in a restaurant? I'm curious. Patrons don't know or have any control over licensing, what other people there are doing, so why should law abiding patrons be treated like this just for being there?
I mean, if this is what can happen any time you go out to a bar/club, then who the heck wants to go out?
I mean, if this is what can happen any time you go out to a bar/club, then who the heck wants to go out?
18
@11 - If you are failing to see how this is a gay issue and not just a bar raid, read about how the police acted and what they said while performing this raid:
"The customer recounted hearing anti-gay slurs: "I heard several slurs such as 'I hate homosexuals.' I also heard 'I don't like fags.'"
The man said he was kicked in the ribs while lying down. "Then I heard laughing and giggling and saying this is more fun than raiding niggers with crack. They also told us to shut the fuck up unless we were spoken too [sic]." The man said he heard one person told that if he spoke again he would be hit by a chair. He also reported that one officer "said to everyone in general that all you all do is flash your asses and show your cocks."
And more:
http://www.sovo.com/thelatest/thelatest.…
"The customer recounted hearing anti-gay slurs: "I heard several slurs such as 'I hate homosexuals.' I also heard 'I don't like fags.'"
The man said he was kicked in the ribs while lying down. "Then I heard laughing and giggling and saying this is more fun than raiding niggers with crack. They also told us to shut the fuck up unless we were spoken too [sic]." The man said he heard one person told that if he spoke again he would be hit by a chair. He also reported that one officer "said to everyone in general that all you all do is flash your asses and show your cocks."
And more:
http://www.sovo.com/thelatest/thelatest.…
19
@ 11 - "I am trying and failing to see how this is a gay issue and not just another bar raid.
Asshole cops? Sure. I'll buy that. Homophobic sting operation a la Stonewall? Not so sure about that."
And how often do hetero stripper bars get raided? Not very often, would be my guess.
Asshole cops? Sure. I'll buy that. Homophobic sting operation a la Stonewall? Not so sure about that."
And how often do hetero stripper bars get raided? Not very often, would be my guess.
20
In the US a lot of guilty bad guys get acquitted because the police don't follow Fourth Amendment protocols. In fact, this is the number one reason captured bad guys literally get away with murder.
The Fourth is there to make sure officers of the law don't behave like, well, like they're in a police state. It's to protect the rest of us from cops who are a bit too enthusiastic about the bust.
This raid demonstrates a lack of awareness and discipline on behalf of the APD officers. Bad form.
I hope they get the snot sued out of them. Maybe the Eagle will get a nice shiny easy-clean wood-paneled floor out of this. Maybe the guy upstairs will get a better apartment away from noisy bars and frequent police raids.
But the fact is, the APD. Fucked. Up.
And they need to feel it, or they won't change for the better.
And more of the real bad guys will escape conviction in Atlanta.
The Fourth is there to make sure officers of the law don't behave like, well, like they're in a police state. It's to protect the rest of us from cops who are a bit too enthusiastic about the bust.
This raid demonstrates a lack of awareness and discipline on behalf of the APD officers. Bad form.
I hope they get the snot sued out of them. Maybe the Eagle will get a nice shiny easy-clean wood-paneled floor out of this. Maybe the guy upstairs will get a better apartment away from noisy bars and frequent police raids.
But the fact is, the APD. Fucked. Up.
And they need to feel it, or they won't change for the better.
And more of the real bad guys will escape conviction in Atlanta.
21
@19 More than you think.
The basis for my questioning this was memory of when Honolulu went raid-crazy on strip bars (~2001?), allegedly for improper lap dances or other nonsense.
Cops spent hours drinking and tipping and getting lapdances (with tax dollars), in order to gather "evidence" before calling in the guys with riot gear. On at least one occasion, photos were taken of all the patrons and names printed in local papers.
So yeah, raids on bars do go both ways. Worth mentioning, however, is that I don't think patrons were forced on the floor like this event.
The basis for my questioning this was memory of when Honolulu went raid-crazy on strip bars (~2001?), allegedly for improper lap dances or other nonsense.
Cops spent hours drinking and tipping and getting lapdances (with tax dollars), in order to gather "evidence" before calling in the guys with riot gear. On at least one occasion, photos were taken of all the patrons and names printed in local papers.
So yeah, raids on bars do go both ways. Worth mentioning, however, is that I don't think patrons were forced on the floor like this event.
22
I hope I'm not at risk of getting kicked in the ribs by the cops next time I unknowingly patronize a restaurant that doesn't have its license paperwork in order, or an auto mechanic shop that's disposing its motor oil illegally, or a record store that's paying employees under the table, etc.
23
@21 Cops will abuse and violate the rights of anyone they think will be too embarassed to complain publicly. It's an American tradition.
24
@19
From the Southern Voice (a gay newspaper in Atlanta):
According to APD Deputy Chief Carlos Banda six other clubs — none of them gay — in the past three months have been raided in similar manners to the Atlanta Eagle, including people being forced to lie on the ground, searched and arrested.
Those clubs were exotic dancing clubs Pleasers on Cleveland Avenue, Goldrush on Metropolitan Parkway, Foxy Lady on Moreland Avenue, Candy Shop on Empire Boulevard and the Playground, which has no listed address on the internet. The Masquerade, a popular music and dance venue located on North Avenue, was also raided.
From the Southern Voice (a gay newspaper in Atlanta):
According to APD Deputy Chief Carlos Banda six other clubs — none of them gay — in the past three months have been raided in similar manners to the Atlanta Eagle, including people being forced to lie on the ground, searched and arrested.
Those clubs were exotic dancing clubs Pleasers on Cleveland Avenue, Goldrush on Metropolitan Parkway, Foxy Lady on Moreland Avenue, Candy Shop on Empire Boulevard and the Playground, which has no listed address on the internet. The Masquerade, a popular music and dance venue located on North Avenue, was also raided.
27
So are the police have not provided any justification for this raid. They haven't been able to provide a shred of evidence that anything they allege was going on, was actually happening. If they saw some people having public sex at some point in the past, they should have arrested those people at the time the sex was occurring, and not assault and arrest innocent people weeks later.
28
posted on southern Voice blog:
While I haven't been to the Eagle in 5 years or so, for the 8 years prior to that it was well know that Thursday nights meant ""black out nights" in the back two sections of the bar. Had the cops raided the place a bit later, they would have really gotten what they wanted ... or was this just a polite warning of what could have taken place?
Posted 9/15/09 - 10:04 AM
While I haven't been to the Eagle in 5 years or so, for the 8 years prior to that it was well know that Thursday nights meant ""black out nights" in the back two sections of the bar. Had the cops raided the place a bit later, they would have really gotten what they wanted ... or was this just a polite warning of what could have taken place?
Posted 9/15/09 - 10:04 AM
29
posted on Southern Voice blog:
The gay community still responds predictably to any kind of negative treatment by our local law enforcement. As with Backstreet in the past and almost every gay bar establishment that I've been in, there has been rampant sexual misconduct, rampant drug use, and overall BAD behavior by the clientle that always claim discrimination when they are "caught in the act". I applaud the APD for doing their job. If the gay community will stop selling and doing drugs in public places and stop having sex in those same public places, perhaps the APD will leave them alone.
Posted 9/15/09 - 11:11 AM
P.S. I am gay and yes, I've done all of those things in the past....THATS how I know that they do occur. Stop bitching, queens, and start acting responsibly.
Posted 9/15/09 - 11:14 AM
The gay community still responds predictably to any kind of negative treatment by our local law enforcement. As with Backstreet in the past and almost every gay bar establishment that I've been in, there has been rampant sexual misconduct, rampant drug use, and overall BAD behavior by the clientle that always claim discrimination when they are "caught in the act". I applaud the APD for doing their job. If the gay community will stop selling and doing drugs in public places and stop having sex in those same public places, perhaps the APD will leave them alone.
Posted 9/15/09 - 11:11 AM
P.S. I am gay and yes, I've done all of those things in the past....THATS how I know that they do occur. Stop bitching, queens, and start acting responsibly.
Posted 9/15/09 - 11:14 AM
30
posted on Southern Voice blog:
The APD is our best asset and best friend to the Gay Community. This bar is known for this type of trash. Ive watched this stuff happen and I am embarrassed. Support the APD and stop being such a bunch of victims. Form a private club if you want to engage in this behavior.
Posted 9/15/09 - 1:23 PM
The APD is our best asset and best friend to the Gay Community. This bar is known for this type of trash. Ive watched this stuff happen and I am embarrassed. Support the APD and stop being such a bunch of victims. Form a private club if you want to engage in this behavior.
Posted 9/15/09 - 1:23 PM
31
posted on Southern Voice blog:
Volvo--- Frankly, you are in denial. Everyone that attended this bar, at some point, has seen something just like these complaints allege. The one thing I dispute are the baggies around the area.... We all know thats a well known crack area with vagrants and homeless ... to blame that on the patrons is asinine, but the rest is spot on.
Posted 9/15/09 - 3:33 PM
Volvo--- Frankly, you are in denial. Everyone that attended this bar, at some point, has seen something just like these complaints allege. The one thing I dispute are the baggies around the area.... We all know thats a well known crack area with vagrants and homeless ... to blame that on the patrons is asinine, but the rest is spot on.
Posted 9/15/09 - 3:33 PM
32
posted on Southern Voice blog:
volvodrivingliberal, so your only complaint is that this was a misallocation of police resources? That's a position I can actually agree with. It's those suddenly becoming overrun with righteousness about what goes on in the Eagle saying this was some kind of "attack" on the Gay community that seem misguided.
Posted 9/15/09 - 4:16 PM
volvodrivingliberal, so your only complaint is that this was a misallocation of police resources? That's a position I can actually agree with. It's those suddenly becoming overrun with righteousness about what goes on in the Eagle saying this was some kind of "attack" on the Gay community that seem misguided.
Posted 9/15/09 - 4:16 PM
33
Post on the Southern Voice blog:
Two reports from the same person with a grudge against the Eagle and Southern Bears.
As soon as the reports were published anyone who is familar with the events of the past year knew who filed them and why. And he does not even live in Atlanta and has been barred from the Eagle for two years.
Ya gotta love being able to stay anonomous.
Posted 9/16/09 - 1:16 PM
Two reports from the same person with a grudge against the Eagle and Southern Bears.
As soon as the reports were published anyone who is familar with the events of the past year knew who filed them and why. And he does not even live in Atlanta and has been barred from the Eagle for two years.
Ya gotta love being able to stay anonomous.
Posted 9/16/09 - 1:16 PM
34
@27
From the Southern Voice:
On hand for the Tuesday meeting was APD Deputy Chief Carlos Banda who discussed what happened and answered questions from committee members about the controversial police raid. He spoke at the start of the meeting, but remained for the full meeting to listen to the citizen complaints.
He informed the committee the APD opens up investigations traditionally after it receives complaints of alleged illegal activity — either from citizen complaints, Crime Stoppers or even after officers may hear about suspicious activity. That’s what happened in this case, Banda said.
Two complaints were made; one addressed to Mayor Shirley Franklin and a second complaint was from a Crime Stoppers tip. According to the police records provided to the media, the tip to City Hall was made May 19 and the Crime Stoppers tip was made July 1. Police reports show undercover officers visited the Atlanta Eagle on May 21 and June 11.
When such complaints are received, the APD has to verify illegal activity is taking place and in the Atlanta Eagle case, that meant an undercover operation, Banda said.
“In most cases, we go in three times before we do anything,” he said.
The vice squad was involved in the undercover operation of the Atlanta Eagle, begun in May, he said. Police reports show Sept. 10 was the third time undercover officers visited the bar and undercover sergeants at the scene made the decision to call the raid and request the Red Dog unit to help with arrests, Banda said.
“While in the establishment they witnessed some sexual activity … and code violations … and they asked the Red Dog unit to come in and help with arrests,” Banda said.
The Red Dog unit, dressed in paramilitary gear, was used to assist in arrests because the undercover officers feared the men in the bar might not believe them if they said they were police officers, he said.
More...
From the Southern Voice:
On hand for the Tuesday meeting was APD Deputy Chief Carlos Banda who discussed what happened and answered questions from committee members about the controversial police raid. He spoke at the start of the meeting, but remained for the full meeting to listen to the citizen complaints.
He informed the committee the APD opens up investigations traditionally after it receives complaints of alleged illegal activity — either from citizen complaints, Crime Stoppers or even after officers may hear about suspicious activity. That’s what happened in this case, Banda said.
Two complaints were made; one addressed to Mayor Shirley Franklin and a second complaint was from a Crime Stoppers tip. According to the police records provided to the media, the tip to City Hall was made May 19 and the Crime Stoppers tip was made July 1. Police reports show undercover officers visited the Atlanta Eagle on May 21 and June 11.
When such complaints are received, the APD has to verify illegal activity is taking place and in the Atlanta Eagle case, that meant an undercover operation, Banda said.
“In most cases, we go in three times before we do anything,” he said.
The vice squad was involved in the undercover operation of the Atlanta Eagle, begun in May, he said. Police reports show Sept. 10 was the third time undercover officers visited the bar and undercover sergeants at the scene made the decision to call the raid and request the Red Dog unit to help with arrests, Banda said.
“While in the establishment they witnessed some sexual activity … and code violations … and they asked the Red Dog unit to come in and help with arrests,” Banda said.
The Red Dog unit, dressed in paramilitary gear, was used to assist in arrests because the undercover officers feared the men in the bar might not believe them if they said they were police officers, he said.
35
I don't know if this has been posted yet, but here is the full text of the complaints against the bar:
http://www.sovo.com/thelatest/thelatest.…
http://www.sovo.com/thelatest/thelatest.…
36
But just in case you don't have a bed in your apartment where you can have sex if you live in Atlanta there is no need to worry because you can always have sex in the backrooms of the Eagle.
37
from Southern Voice blogs:
It's unfair to blame the mayor for how a few police officers acted. It's more important that the city investigate the claims and reprimand any officer that went beyond the law. I'm confused though at why there only 9 complaints and how "several" said they didn't hear discriminatory comments and others did. The "I hate homosexuals" is particularly perplexing as that's so formal and not very engaging. If these people are lying, just to make a stink and make the raid seem more reprehensible that it was, I hope they are prosecuted.
Posted 9/17/09 - 2:26 PM
It's unfair to blame the mayor for how a few police officers acted. It's more important that the city investigate the claims and reprimand any officer that went beyond the law. I'm confused though at why there only 9 complaints and how "several" said they didn't hear discriminatory comments and others did. The "I hate homosexuals" is particularly perplexing as that's so formal and not very engaging. If these people are lying, just to make a stink and make the raid seem more reprehensible that it was, I hope they are prosecuted.
Posted 9/17/09 - 2:26 PM
38
Posted on Southern Voice blog:
0
I am not Biased I have been to the Eagle on Thursday nights and I have seen people having full on unprotected anal sex,oral sex and doing drugs in the back rooms. I do believe that this raid is an isolated incident,being that Blakes does not get raided,There is no police presence at Outwright Bookstore . I am inclined to believe the Eagle had it coming.They did something wrong and should have to deal with all the consequences -Stop pulling the anti -gay card here!! There was no hate involved The owners of the Eagle as well as the staff got what they deserved.
Posted 9/13/09 - 8:21 PM
0
I am not Biased I have been to the Eagle on Thursday nights and I have seen people having full on unprotected anal sex,oral sex and doing drugs in the back rooms. I do believe that this raid is an isolated incident,being that Blakes does not get raided,There is no police presence at Outwright Bookstore . I am inclined to believe the Eagle had it coming.They did something wrong and should have to deal with all the consequences -Stop pulling the anti -gay card here!! There was no hate involved The owners of the Eagle as well as the staff got what they deserved.
Posted 9/13/09 - 8:21 PM
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