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News & ArtsTuesday, September 15, 2009
Books / The Ladies Is There Too Much Rape in Superhero Comics?
Posted by Paul Constant on Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 1:41 PM
Slog tipper Gloria alerts us to this io9 post about a recent Spider-Man comic book that started a controversy in the weird world of comics blogs. It seems that one of Spider-Man's villains, while impersonating his secret identity Peter Parker, had sex with Parker's roommate.
When asked about this, Fred Van Lente, who is the writer of the story, responded in part by saying "My understanding of the definition of rape is that it requires force or the threat of force, so no. Using deception to trick someone into granting consent isn't quite the same thing." This rather stupid and wrongheaded statement did not help put out the fires caused by the rape scene. And then the next issue of the comic book came out, and once the real Peter Parker comes home, his roommate, who still believes she had sex with him, is wearing Parker's clothes and wackily believes they are now in a relationship:
You can click to enlarge, but here is the majority of what she is saying:
We're going to have to work on that—your punctuality. Guys I date have to know how to use a watch....When I come home from a long day at the office, I expect minimum two hours quality time. Otherwise, what's the point of a relationship?...Your closet looked like a shrine to 1988. Don't worry. I gave it all away to Goodwill. Tomorrow we'll get you a whole new look.
So now on top of the rape, we have the "Women just want to trap you in a relationship and take you shopping to make you over like you are a Ken doll or something" plot in play. But Van Lente has made it all better! Now he suggests that fake-Peter Parker didn't have sex with the roommate, which means, in his opinion, that there was no rape at all. Um, okay then! Case closed?
Many thanks to Slog tipper Gloria, who says "Anyway, Paul, you might like this. Because of the comics. Not because of the rape."
1
Oh good, there was no sex. That makes it better. So, after just making out with him, she turned into a self-centered, inconsiderate nag. With enormous knockers.
What lazy writing.... I think that there are likely better, less idiotic ways to mine the "she thinks they're in a relationship and he has no idea" storyline for laughs, but, they might have required some actual thought and creativity on the writers' part.
What lazy writing.... I think that there are likely better, less idiotic ways to mine the "she thinks they're in a relationship and he has no idea" storyline for laughs, but, they might have required some actual thought and creativity on the writers' part.
2
I don't agree that rape requires force or the threat thereof, but it's a mighty slippery slope to say that the use of deception to get consent implies rape. Wouldn't the majority of sex be considered rape if you consider any dishonesty to mean invalid consent? If I receive a sexual favor based on my agreement for later reciprocation and later renege, clearly that makes me an asshole, but I can't accept that it would make me a felon that is by all rights considered to be one of the most despicable types of people on the planet.
5
Meh, it'll all just get retconed in a few years and we'll be told it happened in an alternate universe that was destroyed by Galactus or Thanos or whatever.
7
Peter Parker is the biggest dork in the history of the world, not just comics. The fact that the imposter was able to seduce a female proves right off that she didn't know him very well. Glad to see Eastern State University get a shout-out, though.
Jesus, the only thing lamer than this is the newspaper version -- THE lamest comic ever written.
Jesus, the only thing lamer than this is the newspaper version -- THE lamest comic ever written.
8
That't not rape. I don't advocate using superpowers to assume the shape of people, that people I want to fuck, would consent to having sex with, but its still not rape. While still definitely fucked up, its fictitious, and if someone would fuck you cause they thought you were someone else, and they thought you were someone else, cause of your MAGIC powers, well you might as well have included how a critique on how insensitive Alan Moore was at the end of Watchmen for killing all those fake New Yorkers, with his fake monster, created by fake Ozymandias. I love you Seattle, but this is silly, and the same reason we don't have a subway. I understand your concern for the misrepresentation of women, ESPECIALLY in comics, but if you let this go unchecked will nerds start pretending to be fake newspaper photgraphers in hopes of fucking their neighbors wife?! In real life, women are being real raped, lets stick to the real problems.
9
@2: The problem here isn't just deception. This is certainly deceptive, but taking on a specific identity that *belongs to someone else* isn't just deception, but straight-up impersonation.
He didn't just take advantage of her willingness to have sex with a certain *type* of person (e.g. doctor, movie star, whatever), but a specific person -- Peter's name, reputation to her, and relationship with her. That's pretty problematic, and not just skeevy, but fairly illegal in many contexts.
Or do a lot of people do this and I'm just blissfully ignorant?
(Is it way too nerdy to comment on something you Slog-tipped on?)
He didn't just take advantage of her willingness to have sex with a certain *type* of person (e.g. doctor, movie star, whatever), but a specific person -- Peter's name, reputation to her, and relationship with her. That's pretty problematic, and not just skeevy, but fairly illegal in many contexts.
Or do a lot of people do this and I'm just blissfully ignorant?
(Is it way too nerdy to comment on something you Slog-tipped on?)
10
Yeah there is, but we as a society make jokes about real life prison rape so you know.
In America rape is apparently entertainment. I think it's rooted in our Christian values and the specifically the part of the Bible where Lot offers his daughters up to be gang raped. And Lot was the Holy guy in the story.
In America rape is apparently entertainment. I think it's rooted in our Christian values and the specifically the part of the Bible where Lot offers his daughters up to be gang raped. And Lot was the Holy guy in the story.
11
paul, you LIE!
my friend sharon is still waiting for the book recommendation that you promised more than a week ago.
my friend sharon is still waiting for the book recommendation that you promised more than a week ago.
12
@9: Oh right. The issue here isn't even the story, but the fact that the writer thinks it isn't rape. If he wrote it as rape, treated it that way, it would actually be less controversial. Some people pointed to Moore's Killing Joke as an example.
15
You should really check out Women in Refrigerators: http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/ . It explores this phenomenon in detail.
16
@9, 12
I agree that it's more egregious than simple deception, but I would liken it more to fraud than rape. I don't believe that rape can occur when there's the consent of an adult with all their faculties (even if they don't have all the facts). I suppose this is more like statutory rape?
I just take issue because rape is such an emotional and loaded subject with extreme social connotations and hesitate to apply it willy-nilly wherever unkosher sex is concerned.
I agree that it's more egregious than simple deception, but I would liken it more to fraud than rape. I don't believe that rape can occur when there's the consent of an adult with all their faculties (even if they don't have all the facts). I suppose this is more like statutory rape?
I just take issue because rape is such an emotional and loaded subject with extreme social connotations and hesitate to apply it willy-nilly wherever unkosher sex is concerned.
18
@4 and @6 have it. With this story, Fred Van Lente has shown all of us his cluelessness about and disdain for women. Obviously, not everyone who has written in the comic milieu is a social miscreant with misogynist tendencies, but this jackass sure is.
19
Battlestar Galactica featured a similar (albeit less ambiguous and FAR more creepy) rape scenerio. In one scene, the cylon Boomer tied up the cylon Athena and put her in a closet with the door cracked. Then, because they look identical, Boomer had sex with Athena's human husband and made her watch. The husband was of course none the wiser.
20
The writer may be a misogynist, but I hardly think that playing up negative character traits to create drama qualifies as solid evidence. If comics (or really, any media whatsoever) portrayed realistic, reasonable people they'd probably be a lot less interesting!
22
Will In Seattle, you palsied dimwit, how many rapes in superhero comics have you counted?
Seriously on a larger note how many have there been? I can only think of Elongated Man's wife Sue Dibney being raped by Dr. Light in Brad Meltzer's Identity Crisis, Barbra Gordon in The Killing Joke and maybe this. I have been reading superhero comics off and on since 1975. Anybody care to chime in?
I hate myself.
Seriously on a larger note how many have there been? I can only think of Elongated Man's wife Sue Dibney being raped by Dr. Light in Brad Meltzer's Identity Crisis, Barbra Gordon in The Killing Joke and maybe this. I have been reading superhero comics off and on since 1975. Anybody care to chime in?
I hate myself.
23
@18 look at the works of Frank Miller or Alan Moore. Both are incredibly successful, despite being ridiculously misogynistic with female characters- at best treating them like clueless sidekicks, at worst making them into sexual props.
26
There was a Penthouse movie from way back in my youth that re-enacted a submitted story of a woman and her twin sister trading-off during sex with an oblivious boyfriend. I had absolutely no idea that they were (half?) raping that poor man, and now I'm feeling really icky about having enjoyed the movie.
I just assumed that voluntary participation during sex meant it wasn't rape. But I guess I was being naive.
It's pretty much to the point now that sex doesn't exist anymore between a man and a woman. It's all just varying degrees of rape.
I just assumed that voluntary participation during sex meant it wasn't rape. But I guess I was being naive.
It's pretty much to the point now that sex doesn't exist anymore between a man and a woman. It's all just varying degrees of rape.
27
The rape itself (or whatever you want to call it) was villainous on the part of the character (a villain), but not on the part of the writer. The behavior of the woman after the rape, however, was clearly written by a misogynist. Really awful, woman-hating dialogue. Is this common in comics?
28
@22 - well, I admit there weren't any in Captain Canuck, but quite a few, and that's without including the ones in Metal Hurlant or Heavy Metal or the Japanese manga.
29
Don't forget when the inverse happened. Nightwing--the original Robin of Batman & Robin, now all growed up and solo--was drugged by a supergirl hottie, who proceeded to hump him on a rooftop.
30
And then there was the story in Superman right after the John Byrne relaunch where Sleeze had hypnotized Big Barda, and was making her appear in adult movies.
Superman, of course, was able to resist Sleeze's power on the first attempt, but Barda had been there for weeks.
Superman, of course, was able to resist Sleeze's power on the first attempt, but Barda had been there for weeks.
31
@22 -- I don't think it has ever been established that the Joker raped Barbara Gordon in "The Killing Joke", merely that he shot her, stripped her naked, and sent the photos to her father.
34
@ 28 Super hero comics! You dizzy fuck.
@ 31 Yeah that one is iffy but I erred on the side of calling it one.
@ 31 Yeah that one is iffy but I erred on the side of calling it one.
35
Can we pick a new word for these "dubious consent" scenarios already? I think considering every god damn thing in the world that isn't 100% unambiguously consensual to be on the same exact level as brutally forcing yourself onto a someone diminishes the severity of what women who have *actually been raped* have to go through.
Rape is a really heavy word that should stay that way; I don't think what happened in this comic is real "rape", but it's obviously an asshole move. I like how the next line where the writer says as much is conveniently left out of the post. Treating this poor guy like he's a misogynist rape-enthusiast because he doesn't file sex-without-all-the-facts at the same level as being physically restrained while a man brutally assaults and violates you against your will, or drugged and fucked by 20 strangers, is completely ridiculous. There are plenty of awful things that aren't called "rape", people, his reluctance to label it with that particular term does not automatically mean he condones it.
That "I think we're in a relationship so I'm going to turn into a monstrous controlling bitch because that's what women do, tee hee!" thing is pretty stupid, though, yeah.
Rape is a really heavy word that should stay that way; I don't think what happened in this comic is real "rape", but it's obviously an asshole move. I like how the next line where the writer says as much is conveniently left out of the post. Treating this poor guy like he's a misogynist rape-enthusiast because he doesn't file sex-without-all-the-facts at the same level as being physically restrained while a man brutally assaults and violates you against your will, or drugged and fucked by 20 strangers, is completely ridiculous. There are plenty of awful things that aren't called "rape", people, his reluctance to label it with that particular term does not automatically mean he condones it.
That "I think we're in a relationship so I'm going to turn into a monstrous controlling bitch because that's what women do, tee hee!" thing is pretty stupid, though, yeah.
36
Back on topic, there's the fairly infamous rape in Identity Crisis where the Justice League ended up magically lobotomizing the perpetrator and eventually the Spectre turns him into a candle and melts him alive.
37
Read Kevin Smith's Black Cat comic. Bad guy literally fucks his own brother. Bad guy then attempts to rape Black Cat before brother stops it. Black Cat wins over said brother when they bond over the fact that they've both been raped (she had been raped previously), and then Spider-Man and Daredevil bust her out of jail where she's being held because she refuses to talk. The end.
38
@16,
How is this scenario significantly different than a man raping a woman who's unconscious? She's only hurt if she finds out about it, right? Is it rape or isn't it? I can guess what your answer is.
The fact is that this kind of fraud and deception is a violation, which does make it rape.
A good number of comments here make it clear that it's not just comic book writers who have issues with women.
As if people like you give a flying fuck about women who have experience "real" rape. Fuck off and die.
How is this scenario significantly different than a man raping a woman who's unconscious? She's only hurt if she finds out about it, right? Is it rape or isn't it? I can guess what your answer is.
The fact is that this kind of fraud and deception is a violation, which does make it rape.
A good number of comments here make it clear that it's not just comic book writers who have issues with women.
I think considering every god damn thing in the world that isn't 100% unambiguously consensual to be on the same exact level as brutally forcing yourself onto a someone diminishes the severity of what women who have *actually been raped* have to go through.
As if people like you give a flying fuck about women who have experience "real" rape. Fuck off and die.
39
@38 - Yeah, only the most narrow definition of rape is "real." I know it because I saw it on Law & Order.
40
@38
Considering I am a woman that has experienced "real" rape, I think I do give a flying fuck. You can't convince me that, say, fucking my friend's asshole identical twin brother while he pretends to be my friend is anywhere near as traumatizing as having both my legs broken and a cock shoved up my ass was, but hey! Let's just pretend they're the same thing anyway and postulate that anyone who disagrees must hate women and want them to get deceptifucked by their friend's asshole identical twin brother, because if it's not called rape it must be A-Okay.
Considering I am a woman that has experienced "real" rape, I think I do give a flying fuck. You can't convince me that, say, fucking my friend's asshole identical twin brother while he pretends to be my friend is anywhere near as traumatizing as having both my legs broken and a cock shoved up my ass was, but hey! Let's just pretend they're the same thing anyway and postulate that anyone who disagrees must hate women and want them to get deceptifucked by their friend's asshole identical twin brother, because if it's not called rape it must be A-Okay.
41
@38
No-oooo, I said that it's not rape when a CONSENTING adult doesn't have all the facts. Clearly someone who's asleep isn't consenting. I'm on the side of people who feel that 'rape' is such a horrific and brutal act with extreme social connotation that labeling other acts with it is doing its victims a disservice.
No-oooo, I said that it's not rape when a CONSENTING adult doesn't have all the facts. Clearly someone who's asleep isn't consenting. I'm on the side of people who feel that 'rape' is such a horrific and brutal act with extreme social connotation that labeling other acts with it is doing its victims a disservice.
43
#42 FTW.
Look, in Spidey's world he deals with Doc Ock, the Green Goblin, Topher Grace, etc. He also somehow manages to have a job at a newspaper when they're all folding like crazy. He shoots frickin' webs out of his wrist (or, if you're a purist, managed to invent such an insane web device when he was a mere teenager.) In a world such as this, there's a quibble about whether or not a shapeshifter is a rapist? Even the Comic Book Guy would shake his head over this one. Then he'd wipe the mustard off his shirt.
Look, in Spidey's world he deals with Doc Ock, the Green Goblin, Topher Grace, etc. He also somehow manages to have a job at a newspaper when they're all folding like crazy. He shoots frickin' webs out of his wrist (or, if you're a purist, managed to invent such an insane web device when he was a mere teenager.) In a world such as this, there's a quibble about whether or not a shapeshifter is a rapist? Even the Comic Book Guy would shake his head over this one. Then he'd wipe the mustard off his shirt.
44
I'm kind of confused as to how thinking that something does not constitute rape translates into that person being a misogynist. If anything, the scene with her berating Peter when he comes home is FAR more misogynistic than the "rape" scene. I personally don't think its rape (although its obviously deceitful, immoral, and disturbing), but I could see how someone could reasonably make a case for the other side. Does that make me a misogynist? Why do people have such a propensity to demonize the 'other side', even on an issue as trivial as comic book story lines?
45
The writer has come out and explicitly said that no sex even occurred, and that would be made clear next issue (which is out tomorrow).
That little tidbit was left out of this post.
That little tidbit was left out of this post.
46
Or I skipped a paragraph and didn't see that they mentioned his comment. But I'm confused as to how it can be his "opinion" that it's not rape if there was no sex. If Mary is presumed dead, and Bill is accused of her murder, and then Mary is found alive, is it only my "opinion" that Bill didn't kill her? Oy
47
@8 - Chameleon uses no superpowers in this issue, just masks and mimicry. The writer doesn't like his shapeshifting abilities.
48
Sorry, but this just isn't rape. It's not. It's deception, it's fraud... it's not rape. Not by any stretch of the imagination. She consented to sex while not being in full possession of the facts. That doesn't change the fact that it was consensual. Which makes it not rape. Period.
Rape's a strong word for a strong act. I absolutely fucking hate it when people cheapen it by using it as a substitution for a sense of violation.
Rape's a strong word for a strong act. I absolutely fucking hate it when people cheapen it by using it as a substitution for a sense of violation.
49
@14 Schmax: Because NY rents are HELL, especially in a comicbook city filled with superheroes and supervillains smashing everyone's property every damn week.
2 bits:
Identity theft in the 4th degree: yes. Non-consensual sex (or makeout)? No. She wanted naughty sex and got it.
Should the definition of rape evolve and include criminal imposteration? Perhaps. I'm 99% sure someone who's not Bill Clinton but looks like him has gotten some in the last 12 years.
Should rape include the possibility of Mission Impossible agents and shapeshifters 100% fooling us? No.
Doesn't the whole thing reek of allegory though? As in : the page 12 'news' that Facebook might want to forbid anon accounts?
I prefer the Women In Refrigerators sexism-in-comics myself. There's some skeevy misogynist writing THERE for sure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Re…
http://en.wikipedia.org/
wiki/Women_in_Refrigerators
in particular, read Gail Simone's "single point"
2 bits:
Identity theft in the 4th degree: yes. Non-consensual sex (or makeout)? No. She wanted naughty sex and got it.
Should the definition of rape evolve and include criminal imposteration? Perhaps. I'm 99% sure someone who's not Bill Clinton but looks like him has gotten some in the last 12 years.
Should rape include the possibility of Mission Impossible agents and shapeshifters 100% fooling us? No.
Doesn't the whole thing reek of allegory though? As in : the page 12 'news' that Facebook might want to forbid anon accounts?
I prefer the Women In Refrigerators sexism-in-comics myself. There's some skeevy misogynist writing THERE for sure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Re…
http://en.wikipedia.org/
wiki/Women_in_Refrigerators
in particular, read Gail Simone's "single point"
50
@14: Peter Parker was married to MJ until the devil came and erased their memories and rewrote history about a year ago in order to open PP up to amazing storylines like this.
@lots of people: I think there's rape = "nonconsensual sex" and rape = "violent assault involving sexual violation." Maybe we need new language to differentiate the two.
@lots of people: I think there's rape = "nonconsensual sex" and rape = "violent assault involving sexual violation." Maybe we need new language to differentiate the two.
51
Pretty sure what people here are missing is this: she CONSENTED to sex with Peter Parker, but didn't have sex with Peter Parker. She never consented to have sex with whoever was using his identity to get laid. Lack of consent == rape.
52
@51: You realize that this situation pretty much cannot ever happen in real life, right? And that, even as a thought experiment, it's retarded?
53
There is no such thing as "real" rape or "sorta" rape. There are degrees of brutality, absolutely, but manipulating consent through pressure or ignoring "no" or feeding alcohol until she's drunk enough to say "yes" or using magic powers to pretending you're someone else who she will say yes to is rape. Creating degrees of rape and making anything less than brutal physical assault something less marginalizes sexual assault victims and condones their attackers. Most rapists are not strangers and most rapes don't involve physical beatings, they are through manipulation by people you know and trust.
54
No one used magic powers, and if it would be considered rape (which obviously people don't agree on) then it's still moot because no sex occurred - the issue currently out spells that out pretty clearly.
56
Will someone please explain to me how this is worse than The Joker stripping, photographing, and then crippling Barbara Gordon, in what is widely considered to be one of the best Batman stories ever written? Sometimes I think that people aren't upset because a villain raped somebody; people are upset because that rape is being played for laughs.
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