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News & ArtsMonday, September 14, 2009
Homo Why We Can't Let Gays In The Military
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 2:10 PM
Straight soldiers will be turned into sex slaves!
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Sen. Byrd doesn't like us homos much. He's ranted - on the antigay side - about us before. But then he used to be in the KKK...
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Some of history's greatest soldiers were homo. Alexander The Great, Hadrian, are two. So if you are going to use some obscure and questionable occurance at least use some unquestionable examples of valor and genius.
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I don't recall that being the hot button issue about gays when I was in, but then again, I was blind drunk most of the time.
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You need homosexuals in the military.
Because when it comes time to anally rape 15 year old detainees the heteros might punk out on you.
Because when it comes time to anally rape 15 year old detainees the heteros might punk out on you.
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if we let homosexuals in the armed forces, it will be used as a pick-up joint, and allowing gay sex in the barracks will discourage normal men from enlisting. bad idea.
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If we let women in the armed forces it will be used as a pick-up joint for aggressive rapists, and allowing straight rape in the barracks will discourage normal men from enlisting. bad idea.
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12
wow that's clever what you did there.
women are subject to coerced sex if not outright rape, both of which are not rare currently. and, yes, it is bad for morale.
wow that's clever what you did there.
women are subject to coerced sex if not outright rape, both of which are not rare currently. and, yes, it is bad for morale.
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@14 So that completely justifies the old claims that women should be kept out of the military and the current claims that straight men would leave in droves if gays were allowed to serve openly. Never mind the fact most kids signing up nowadays know gay people and couldn't care less if they work with them in civilian or military life.
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Dan - rather than doing your normal knock-down-the-strawman schtick, perhaps you could provide a forum for somebody more knowledgeable on this topic?
This topic is far more nuanced than you portray it and the lack of any military experience on the part of you or your staff is telling.
For the most part, with the exception of your jingoistic support of Operation Iraqi Freedom, the tone of your paper has always been generally anti-military.
This topic involves TWO communities that need to find common ground and understanding: the gay community and the military community (with, of course, the silent portion where the two communities overlap).
You do both communities a disservice with your overly simplistic snark.
Do this topic a favor and provide a forum for gay veterans whose opinions are arguably more informed than yours. There is more to this than you are capable of addressing.
(Cue rabid anti-military rhetoric.)
This topic is far more nuanced than you portray it and the lack of any military experience on the part of you or your staff is telling.
For the most part, with the exception of your jingoistic support of Operation Iraqi Freedom, the tone of your paper has always been generally anti-military.
This topic involves TWO communities that need to find common ground and understanding: the gay community and the military community (with, of course, the silent portion where the two communities overlap).
You do both communities a disservice with your overly simplistic snark.
Do this topic a favor and provide a forum for gay veterans whose opinions are arguably more informed than yours. There is more to this than you are capable of addressing.
(Cue rabid anti-military rhetoric.)
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@12
women don't bunk with men. homosexuals would be within feet of their sexual interests (or closer, in wartime). forcing regular guys to sleep with gays who are after their asses is not a good idea. how can a guy sleep soundly in that situation? it's like forcing women to sleep underneath under-sexed men.
women don't bunk with men. homosexuals would be within feet of their sexual interests (or closer, in wartime). forcing regular guys to sleep with gays who are after their asses is not a good idea. how can a guy sleep soundly in that situation? it's like forcing women to sleep underneath under-sexed men.
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Sorry, I just don't get it. I mean, I saw a lot of charge sheets and documents about sexual abuse in the military, but gay sex slaves?
God, I wish the US military would join the rest of NATO in not caring about soldiers' sexual identities ...
God, I wish the US military would join the rest of NATO in not caring about soldiers' sexual identities ...
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@17 - The great lie and the great fear used in the gays-in-the-military arguments are based on the idea that all gay men are nearly incapable of resisting the allure of all straight men, that we will have uncontrollable urges and spend our days and nights making passes at every male who inadvertently strays within fifty feet. I have a news flash for you and for all the terrified straight guys out there: Just because a guy has a working dick doesn't make him an object of interest to every gay man around. We have our standards.
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It's not the working dick;
it's the irresistibly cute and firm ass that you would be lusting after...
It's not the working dick;
it's the irresistibly cute and firm ass that you would be lusting after...
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I served in the military and lived in the barracks. I had a job to do and did it as professionally as I was able. I shared the showers as well. No sex ever occured nor was I interested in any. So, I know first hand that, once again, the haters lie.
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@19
you don't think there's a problem w/rape of women in the military? now make homosexuality okay and see where it goes. horny, undersexed homosexuals sleeping in a pile of men is a rape waiting to happen. normal soldiers have enough to worry about. i certainly wouldn't sign up for that.
let gays do what they do as civilians.
you don't think there's a problem w/rape of women in the military? now make homosexuality okay and see where it goes. horny, undersexed homosexuals sleeping in a pile of men is a rape waiting to happen. normal soldiers have enough to worry about. i certainly wouldn't sign up for that.
let gays do what they do as civilians.
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@22 Sleeping in a pile? Do you know any military people? Why don't you listen to Vince just above your post?
I've heard from straight male soldiers that think the DADT policy is stupid and the military needs to cut down on lazy fatties before it kicks out a competent soldier for who they sleep with. And I think it's funny that for some reason you don't hear anything about the lesbians attacking those poor straight women in the bunks late at night.
I've heard from straight male soldiers that think the DADT policy is stupid and the military needs to cut down on lazy fatties before it kicks out a competent soldier for who they sleep with. And I think it's funny that for some reason you don't hear anything about the lesbians attacking those poor straight women in the bunks late at night.
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I just realized MikeC is just like Loveschild. Just as Loveschild is a single black mother trying to protect an institution she couldn't join, MikeC is an old, white warhawk that wants to protect all the brave boys he was too chicken to join.
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Did you see the article about evolution Dan posted today?
"It is clear that lifelong same-sex orientation is unlikely to evolve"
"It is clear that lifelong same-sex orientation is unlikely to evolve"
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@24
you should also want to protect the brave boys that have volunteered to keep your gay ass safe. isn't that enough, or do you have to exploit them sexually too? ("loveschild?" the reference escapes me. a gay thing, i guess)
you should also want to protect the brave boys that have volunteered to keep your gay ass safe. isn't that enough, or do you have to exploit them sexually too? ("loveschild?" the reference escapes me. a gay thing, i guess)
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@22 - yes, there is a problem with rape of women in the military - by straight men. As the (frequently buried or disappeared from processing) charge sheets show.
Seriously, the US should just grow up and move on. Other NATO countries have gay soldiers and it's just NOT an issue. The only people that every really cared are the very old senior NCOs and senior Officers - nobody else does.
Seriously, the US should just grow up and move on. Other NATO countries have gay soldiers and it's just NOT an issue. The only people that every really cared are the very old senior NCOs and senior Officers - nobody else does.
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@MikeC in YF: " i certainly wouldn't sign up for that."
Considering you DIDN'T sign up for military service, your opinion of how the military should handle this issue is irrelevant. Even less relevant than that of Dan Savage, who at least speaks for one of the communities involved.
As for your description of men sleeping in piles, that sounds like some fantasy of yours, with no resemblance to reality.
I'm a veteran, as well. So you can shut the fuck up, chicken-hawk.
Considering you DIDN'T sign up for military service, your opinion of how the military should handle this issue is irrelevant. Even less relevant than that of Dan Savage, who at least speaks for one of the communities involved.
As for your description of men sleeping in piles, that sounds like some fantasy of yours, with no resemblance to reality.
I'm a veteran, as well. So you can shut the fuck up, chicken-hawk.
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l'm gay. I spent 8 years in the military. I showered with hundreds of guys over the course of that 8 years. Slept in very close quarters with them. Served in challenging overseas deployments. And some of those guys were hot, let me tell you. Lots of them were.
And yet, I never slept with any of them. Not one. Why? Because I like to sleep with guys who are actually interested in sleeping with me. Not straight guys who are into women. Every guy I slept with while serving in the military were civilians I met off duty and off base.
Boring, I know. But most of us can actually exhibit a little self control and common sense. You know, act like an adult, not a hormone crazed 14 year old.
And yet, I never slept with any of them. Not one. Why? Because I like to sleep with guys who are actually interested in sleeping with me. Not straight guys who are into women. Every guy I slept with while serving in the military were civilians I met off duty and off base.
Boring, I know. But most of us can actually exhibit a little self control and common sense. You know, act like an adult, not a hormone crazed 14 year old.
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@28
my opinion is impartial. yours, on the other hand, smells of an agenda. a creepy one.
@27
of course straight men wouldn't rape other men. what's your point?
my opinion is impartial. yours, on the other hand, smells of an agenda. a creepy one.
@27
of course straight men wouldn't rape other men. what's your point?
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@31 Can you define impartial? Cause I'm pretty sure anyone espousing the idea that military men sleep in a pile and straight men must protect their precious assholes from violation in this circumstance has some kind of agenda.
And straight men rape other men all the time in prison. Do you live in the real world?
And straight men rape other men all the time in prison. Do you live in the real world?
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@31,
Straight men rape other men all the time, or do you think prisons are crawling with homos?
@6,
Don't forget Richard the Lionheart.
Straight men rape other men all the time, or do you think prisons are crawling with homos?
@6,
Don't forget Richard the Lionheart.
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@33
straight men rape men in prison out of desperation. homosexuals don't have to be desperate. it's what they want.
straight men rape men in prison out of desperation. homosexuals don't have to be desperate. it's what they want.
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@34 Right, and you're so impartial on the subject that you know this implicitly even with all evidence against you.
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MikeC in YF (Y-Fronts?), you are so full of shit your eyes have turned brown. Gay men do not want to fuck every guy in the world, and there probably isn't a gay man in the country who hasn't slept in the same room with straight men at one time or another without any hint of a problem. The biggest problem with men bunking together isn't gay sex, it's farting.
If only there were other militaries who have successfully faced this problem that we could look at. But no, American Exceptionalism works both ways, and American troops (according to their damaged defenders) are UNIQUELY incapable of not attacking their male barracks-mates, because, uh, because, uh....
If only there were other militaries who have successfully faced this problem that we could look at. But no, American Exceptionalism works both ways, and American troops (according to their damaged defenders) are UNIQUELY incapable of not attacking their male barracks-mates, because, uh, because, uh....
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@ Mike in YF,
Projecting much? Just because straight male soldiers can't refrain from schtupping their female collegues, doesn't mean gay male soldiers have so little self control. The armed forces are already full of LGBT and guess what no gangs of gay soldiers have raped those poor, dewy-eyed teenagers you are so desperate to protect. Don't Ask, Don't Tell doesn't keep queers out of the military, it keeps OUT queers out of the military.
Projecting much? Just because straight male soldiers can't refrain from schtupping their female collegues, doesn't mean gay male soldiers have so little self control. The armed forces are already full of LGBT and guess what no gangs of gay soldiers have raped those poor, dewy-eyed teenagers you are so desperate to protect. Don't Ask, Don't Tell doesn't keep queers out of the military, it keeps OUT queers out of the military.
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fnarf, I never said that gays were incapable of not attacking their male barracks-mates. just like straight boys, sex-starved and sleeping in the same bed as a woman in her underwear would not, in theory, necesarily take any liberties. but it would be a bad idea, don't you think? just because homosexuals "should" be able to control themselves, doesn't mean that it's practical.
nice try.
nice try.
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@37
exactly. that's why DADT should remain. if a homosexual outs himself by groping a soldier, he is removed from the military. thanks for making my point.
exactly. that's why DADT should remain. if a homosexual outs himself by groping a soldier, he is removed from the military. thanks for making my point.
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@36: "The biggest problem with men bunking together isn't gay sex, it's farting."
Tragically, hilariously, most assuredly TRUE. I just sprayed coffee, laughing at that. Thank you, Fnarf. Thank you.
Tragically, hilariously, most assuredly TRUE. I just sprayed coffee, laughing at that. Thank you, Fnarf. Thank you.
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@34,
They do it to assert power and dominance and to humiliate their victims, you fucking moron. Don't know much about rape, do you?
They do it to assert power and dominance and to humiliate their victims, you fucking moron. Don't know much about rape, do you?
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I'm going to agree that your eyes have indeed turned a fear filled shade of brown, MikeC in YF. If you suffer from being over sexed and unable to respect the boundaries of others, that doesn't mean that the rest of us, gay or straight, have the same problem. It just means your prejudiced.
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Another gay veteran checking in. I was an infantryman for 4 years. Deployed 3 times to Afghanistan and Iraq. I can safely say that my unit was *more* combat effective with me there, not less.
A CNN poll in 2003 showed 91% support for repealing Don't Ask Don't Tell among Americans aged 18-29 (you know, recruitment age). Support has greatly increased since then, in the light of high-profile cases like arab linguists, Dan Choi, Victor Fehrenbach, etc. The younger generation just doesn't care. There will be precisely zero problems implementing repeal.
A CNN poll in 2003 showed 91% support for repealing Don't Ask Don't Tell among Americans aged 18-29 (you know, recruitment age). Support has greatly increased since then, in the light of high-profile cases like arab linguists, Dan Choi, Victor Fehrenbach, etc. The younger generation just doesn't care. There will be precisely zero problems implementing repeal.
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The military is not a "community." They're citizens of this nation.
This is why we need a draft. Let's avoid becoming Argentina, Chile, etc etc.
@29? An Airman? Why don't you joint the MILITARY instead? You'll never get to sleep in a big pile of straight men in the Air Force!
This is why we need a draft. Let's avoid becoming Argentina, Chile, etc etc.
@29? An Airman? Why don't you joint the MILITARY instead? You'll never get to sleep in a big pile of straight men in the Air Force!
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so, kim, you think there is adequate restraint among members of the military (see widespread rape of women)? it's not prejudice, hon, it's practicality. if everyone has so much respect for boundaries, why not mix the sexes? i respect boundaries, but we're talking about homosexuals.
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No problems have been reported in Canada, England, Israel or any of the NATO militaries that have integrated open gays and lesbians into their ranks. American troops are no less professional.
Meanwhile, Don't Ask Don't Tell has cost about $500,000,000 while making the military less effective, and the country less safe.
Meanwhile, Don't Ask Don't Tell has cost about $500,000,000 while making the military less effective, and the country less safe.
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MikeC in YF, I think your rather sad.
Your pathetic broad generalization, "i respect boundaries, but we're talking about homosexuals", screams your prejudice and homophobia.
Your continued assumption that any person who counters your point is gay, again reveals you to be prejudiced and a homophobe.
Add to that your misogynistic comment to Julie on another thread.
Well you paint yourself rather poorly. My opinion of you is that your prejudiced, homophobic, misogynistic, presumptive, and full of shit. And, I pity your poverty.
Enjoy your evening.
Your pathetic broad generalization, "i respect boundaries, but we're talking about homosexuals", screams your prejudice and homophobia.
Your continued assumption that any person who counters your point is gay, again reveals you to be prejudiced and a homophobe.
Add to that your misogynistic comment to Julie on another thread.
Well you paint yourself rather poorly. My opinion of you is that your prejudiced, homophobic, misogynistic, presumptive, and full of shit. And, I pity your poverty.
Enjoy your evening.
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@46 Thank you and Good Night!
Yeah, my Navy uncle keeps razzing me about it, but AF bound is me.
And being one of those progressive ladies, I'd say I have a pretty good chance sleeping in any pile of straight men I'd like. :-)
Yeah, my Navy uncle keeps razzing me about it, but AF bound is me.
And being one of those progressive ladies, I'd say I have a pretty good chance sleeping in any pile of straight men I'd like. :-)
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Here's why;
http://gawker.com/5350465/our-embassy-in…
Is this the sort of behavior we want our military to show? If this is what we want then we will be given in defeat to our enemy.
http://gawker.com/5350465/our-embassy-in…
Is this the sort of behavior we want our military to show? If this is what we want then we will be given in defeat to our enemy.
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And, LC, if you did your research better you would know that it's straight officers doing the hazing.
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53 No straight man would put his mouth or hand near another man's ass much less right in it. If that's what you think a straight man does, well then, it wouldn't be a bad idea for you to consider hiring a private investigator dear.
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@52
sir, you've got issues. that aberrant behavior (and kim's right - they were straight victims of hazing) is not the reason that gays shouldn't be in the military openly.
sir, you've got issues. that aberrant behavior (and kim's right - they were straight victims of hazing) is not the reason that gays shouldn't be in the military openly.
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@55 LC, you really don't know much about immature drunk straight guys, do you?
And thanks for the article, Dan. Now I understand why my partner signed up :)
And thanks for the article, Dan. Now I understand why my partner signed up :)
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@MikeC
You are right that there is a big problem with rape and sexual harassment of women in the US military. That is why I believe the focus should be on destroying the macho bullshit mentality of the military. The modern military should focus on soldiers who are smart and accurate, not bigoted, stupid brutes. Look at the advantages if the brute mentality is stomped out:
-less rape and harassment of women in the military
-end to the stupid idea that soldiers who are asked to face the risk of capture, torture, permanent injury, and death in combat are so terrified of gays in the shower that their poor morales can't take it
-fewer scandals such as Tailhook, Abu Graib, etc.
You are drawing a false parallel between rape of women in the military and potential homosexual rape. Military women are not generally raped because the poor boys face too much temptation, but to humiliate them and put them down. This is possible because women are still a minority in the US military and they don't receive enough support because of the military's macho bullshit culture.
It is hard to imagine gay men, who would make up only a small percentage of recruits, having the power to successfully pull off rape without facing extreme sanctions. It is easier to imagine straight men abusing openly (or suspected) gay men in order to humiliate them and force them out of the military.
Keeping gays out of the military and discouraging women in the military is costly in terms of lost potential. That's why attitudes need to change from the top down.
You are right that there is a big problem with rape and sexual harassment of women in the US military. That is why I believe the focus should be on destroying the macho bullshit mentality of the military. The modern military should focus on soldiers who are smart and accurate, not bigoted, stupid brutes. Look at the advantages if the brute mentality is stomped out:
-less rape and harassment of women in the military
-end to the stupid idea that soldiers who are asked to face the risk of capture, torture, permanent injury, and death in combat are so terrified of gays in the shower that their poor morales can't take it
-fewer scandals such as Tailhook, Abu Graib, etc.
You are drawing a false parallel between rape of women in the military and potential homosexual rape. Military women are not generally raped because the poor boys face too much temptation, but to humiliate them and put them down. This is possible because women are still a minority in the US military and they don't receive enough support because of the military's macho bullshit culture.
It is hard to imagine gay men, who would make up only a small percentage of recruits, having the power to successfully pull off rape without facing extreme sanctions. It is easier to imagine straight men abusing openly (or suspected) gay men in order to humiliate them and force them out of the military.
Keeping gays out of the military and discouraging women in the military is costly in terms of lost potential. That's why attitudes need to change from the top down.
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Loveschild again you get it wrong. That wasn't the military. It was a private contractor. Also, the people involved were straight, not gay.
MikeC in YF Your gay panic is not warranted. Have you served in the military? I have. You are making baseless claims that you cannot back up. Countries that allow gays in the military include:
Australia
Austria
Bahamas
Belgium
Canada
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Ireland
Israel
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Slovenia
South Africa
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
United Kingdom
Here's an example of countries that don't
Iran
Iraq
Libya
United States
It's time for you to calm down. The gays do not pose a threat to you or anyone else.
MikeC in YF Your gay panic is not warranted. Have you served in the military? I have. You are making baseless claims that you cannot back up. Countries that allow gays in the military include:
Australia
Austria
Bahamas
Belgium
Canada
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Ireland
Israel
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Slovenia
South Africa
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
United Kingdom
Here's an example of countries that don't
Iran
Iraq
Libya
United States
It's time for you to calm down. The gays do not pose a threat to you or anyone else.
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61
Your list suggests an interesting parallel;
Countries whose ass we could kick (one at a time or all together at once) with our DADT military include:
Australia
Austria
Bahamas
Belgium
Canada
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Ireland
Israel
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Slovenia
South Africa
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
United Kingdom
Your list suggests an interesting parallel;
Countries whose ass we could kick (one at a time or all together at once) with our DADT military include:
Australia
Austria
Bahamas
Belgium
Canada
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Ireland
Israel
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Slovenia
South Africa
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
United Kingdom
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62, Psst, Gays are currently serving in our military, yet we could still kick the ass of other countries. Our military superiority is due to our military budget, not the lack of gays. Do you comprehend things at all?
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To add, Also all the hysterical, "Save us, the mean scary gays are going to get us all!!!" is proven wrong by all the nations that have no problems with gay people serving.
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Taking vodka shots out of buttcracks, straight?
Men hiring male prostitutes, and we know what that means in Afghanistan so there's most certainly a correlation with the young sex slave stories that have been brought up. How's that something straight men engage in?
They may not be frontline soldier, but they're guarding the US embassy in Kabul that into in itself is dangerous enough. To Afghans and terrorist they represent the US. There's not that much of a leap from what these men are doing and what would be the norm if DADT is no longer observed. You can call it hazing or friendship parties all you want if it will make you feel better but that doesn't take away the obvious homosexual behavior that was at display in a US embassy by guards that were protecting it. It goes to show the importance of maintaining DADT on the books of the military because men left without regulations and norms of what's appropriate behavior and what's not will engage in these sort of aberrant conducts. As we all know not only are our service men in a war zone but they are in a war zone in a part of the world where this sort of behavior is frown upon and dealt with by way of death sentences. If we are truly trying to win the hearts and minds of these people and win the war, or at least have a good scenario in which we can save face and retreat gracefully from this mess, the last thing we need to show to them is that we embrace the type of behavior that they consider abhorrent cuz it would only serve to reinforce the view that they have of us being the great satan. And that puts our military service men and woman in even greater harms way than they already are in.
Men hiring male prostitutes, and we know what that means in Afghanistan so there's most certainly a correlation with the young sex slave stories that have been brought up. How's that something straight men engage in?
They may not be frontline soldier, but they're guarding the US embassy in Kabul that into in itself is dangerous enough. To Afghans and terrorist they represent the US. There's not that much of a leap from what these men are doing and what would be the norm if DADT is no longer observed. You can call it hazing or friendship parties all you want if it will make you feel better but that doesn't take away the obvious homosexual behavior that was at display in a US embassy by guards that were protecting it. It goes to show the importance of maintaining DADT on the books of the military because men left without regulations and norms of what's appropriate behavior and what's not will engage in these sort of aberrant conducts. As we all know not only are our service men in a war zone but they are in a war zone in a part of the world where this sort of behavior is frown upon and dealt with by way of death sentences. If we are truly trying to win the hearts and minds of these people and win the war, or at least have a good scenario in which we can save face and retreat gracefully from this mess, the last thing we need to show to them is that we embrace the type of behavior that they consider abhorrent cuz it would only serve to reinforce the view that they have of us being the great satan. And that puts our military service men and woman in even greater harms way than they already are in.
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65, Loveschild, I know you have trouble dealing with the facts, but these people are not in the military, and they are straight. No matter how many words you type, you can't change those facts.
I have served in the military, so I know a lot more about it than you. You don't know what you are talking about. Gay people serve in armies around the world, and none of your hysterical, doom and gloom, panic predictions have happened.
Do you ever not just make crap up? Can you not make arguments based on facts?
I have served in the military, so I know a lot more about it than you. You don't know what you are talking about. Gay people serve in armies around the world, and none of your hysterical, doom and gloom, panic predictions have happened.
Do you ever not just make crap up? Can you not make arguments based on facts?
67
Yes, let's embrace the most draconian of their laws so we can appear to them as acceptable infidels. Well, let's get all the women soldiers out of the military first. Are you ready to be stoned to death for having those kids out of wedlock, Loveschild?
And of course men need to stop shaving to respect Allah by looking just like Mohammad.
All you and MikeC can offer are strawmen to legitimate grievances. Being attracted to someone of the same sex does not turn you into a sex-crazed maniac. It means you are a person who looks for affection and companionship from someone of the same sex.
Allowing gays in the military won't have any detrimental effect on morale because they are already there and the rank and file don't care. You're not even listening to the veterans you claim to love so much.
"the last thing we need to show to them is that we embrace the type of behavior that they consider abhorrent"
That is the first thing we need to do. We need to show these people we put love before hate, acceptance before death, and progress above destruction.
We're trying to get the villagers of Iraq and Afganistan to accept our Western ideals of tolerance instead of 12th century draconian laws. But all you can offer are 12th century Christian laws- ones where women were slaves to men, any aberrant behavior was viewed as Satanic possession, and people were burned at the stake.
And of course men need to stop shaving to respect Allah by looking just like Mohammad.
All you and MikeC can offer are strawmen to legitimate grievances. Being attracted to someone of the same sex does not turn you into a sex-crazed maniac. It means you are a person who looks for affection and companionship from someone of the same sex.
Allowing gays in the military won't have any detrimental effect on morale because they are already there and the rank and file don't care. You're not even listening to the veterans you claim to love so much.
"the last thing we need to show to them is that we embrace the type of behavior that they consider abhorrent"
That is the first thing we need to do. We need to show these people we put love before hate, acceptance before death, and progress above destruction.
We're trying to get the villagers of Iraq and Afganistan to accept our Western ideals of tolerance instead of 12th century draconian laws. But all you can offer are 12th century Christian laws- ones where women were slaves to men, any aberrant behavior was viewed as Satanic possession, and people were burned at the stake.
68
the last thing we need to show to them is that we embrace the type of behavior that they consider abhorrent
So Loveschild does that mean you think Jews should be banned from the military? They think Judaism is abhorrent, and by having Jews in the military show we embrace them.
Do you ever think your crazy, hysterical thoughts through before you angrily type them in?
69
68 Ethnicity and cultural ancestry as in the case of Jews are not the same as conduct. Also, the existence of different faiths living side by side is not something that's new to them. It's something that has been prohibited by lunatic terrorist but culturally and historically Afghans have been a diverse tribal and ethnic people.
70
Actually, it's surprisingly common for straight men - by which I mean men who pursue relationships with women and are sexually aroused exclusively by women when their arousal patterns are tested - to rape other men, outside of situations of sexual desperation and limitation like prison. There's an article in Attitude by Johann Hari from a few years ago where he investigated male on male rape and found that 'half of all convicted gay rapists claim that their consenting sexual acts are conducted exclusively with women'. The idea that gays in the military would lead to male on male rape is based to quite a great extent on a fundamental misunderstanding of the motivation behind rape - that it is always motivated by overwhelming attraction to an unattainable individual, and not by a need for to exert power and control.
71
69, Judaism is a religion, and religion is conduct. People choose to be Jewish. Jews could convert to other religions.
Do you ever think through your hysterical Henny Penny thoughts before angrily pound them into the keyboard? Can you not make arguments on facts rather than the stuff you make up?
Do you ever think through your hysterical Henny Penny thoughts before angrily pound them into the keyboard? Can you not make arguments on facts rather than the stuff you make up?
72
Is it just me or does anybody else notice that ANY topic, no matter how timely, relevant, or important, inevitably "jumps the shark" when Loveschild and Rob in Baltimore show up and start arguing and name-calling?
74
Or you could always choose to contribute something to a discourse other than "Oh Loveschild, you are SO stupid... let me count the ways in which you are stupid."
78
Some of us are glad Rob in Baltimore (and, for that matter, Enigma) show up to combat the lunacy of LovesChild and MikeC. While Rob's and Enigma's comments may be "off topic", they are at least factual and well-reasoned.
79
@69. Presumably, gays wouldn't be having sex in public, and (as you've said) you can't recognize a person's sexuality on the surface, especially since soldiers wear uniforms, so your reasoning is not sound.
80
Loveschild,
For this:
"53 No straight man would put his mouth or hand near another man's ass much less right in it. If that's what you think a straight man does, well then, it wouldn't be a bad idea for you to consider hiring a private investigator dear.
Posted by Loveschild on September 14, 2009 at 10:21 PM
Comment by Loveschild on September 14, 2009 at 10:25 PM 56 56
53 That and making sure that you have a good clean bill of health.
Posted by Loveschild on September 14, 2009 at 10:25 PM "
I forgive you.
For this:
"53 No straight man would put his mouth or hand near another man's ass much less right in it. If that's what you think a straight man does, well then, it wouldn't be a bad idea for you to consider hiring a private investigator dear.
Posted by Loveschild on September 14, 2009 at 10:21 PM
Comment by Loveschild on September 14, 2009 at 10:25 PM 56 56
53 That and making sure that you have a good clean bill of health.
Posted by Loveschild on September 14, 2009 at 10:25 PM "
I forgive you.
81
80 And ms high and mighty, i hope you are forgiven for your misinterpretation and deviation of the Bible here. You've claim to have known the truth in Christ and yet you actively guide others who have not away from it. For this may you be forgiven by the only one who can grant true forgiveness. :)
83
@LC,
It is inappropriate for military personnel to be taking part in Public Displays of Affection in cultures where they are unacceptable. That applies to both gays and straights. @79 is right.
These contractors were clearly taking part in inappropriate behavior, especially if these acts took place in front of Afghans. They should be censured and sent back to whatever pathetic straight-boy fraternity they crawled out of. And if you truly believe that their actions weren't behaviors typical of immature straight men, then I don't think you've known very many immature straight men.
It is inappropriate for military personnel to be taking part in Public Displays of Affection in cultures where they are unacceptable. That applies to both gays and straights. @79 is right.
These contractors were clearly taking part in inappropriate behavior, especially if these acts took place in front of Afghans. They should be censured and sent back to whatever pathetic straight-boy fraternity they crawled out of. And if you truly believe that their actions weren't behaviors typical of immature straight men, then I don't think you've known very many immature straight men.
84
81, Loveschild, I'll say it again, and again you'll ignore me because you know it's true. You don't live by the Bible. You are a faux Christian, and a hypocrite. You love to pray just to be seen by others, but for you, it's all a show. In reality, you only look for scripture that you can use to attack people you don't like, while at the same time, you ignore what you don't want to follow.
Loveschild's response, "......"
Loveschild's response, "......"
85
Loveschild!
Rob in Baltimore!
GET A ROOM, FOR FUCK'S SAKE!!!
What the hell was the original topic? Aw, who the fuck cares anymore...
Rob in Baltimore!
GET A ROOM, FOR FUCK'S SAKE!!!
What the hell was the original topic? Aw, who the fuck cares anymore...
86
@17; Christ, are you really that fucked up sexually? As a young man I spent many, many, many nights sleeping in close quarters with women and didn't freak molest anyone. The fact you're a pervert doesn't mean gay people should be kept out of the military. If they can't behave, they should be kicked out, just like straight weirdos like you who can't sleep in the presence of a potential sexual partner without doing something illegal.
87
@62- An attempt to engage all those countries without using nuclear weapons would result in a resounding defeat.
88
85, is there something wrong with your mind that you just can't skip our posts? Are you uncontrollably drawn to them? Or do you feel a need to control the world, and all those around you? I'll post what I want to post, and you can post what you want to post. Feel free not to read mine.
89
@88 Is there something wrong with your mind that you just can't go off-topic to slander Loveschild? Are you uncontrollably drawn to her? Or do you get a visceral thrill from arguing with crazy people? Does your heart start beating faster? Do you get an adrenaline rush? Do you get an erection? Do you enjoy hijacking every fucking thread so you can get your jollies pointing out how stupid people are... stupid? I'll ad-hominem the shit out of you just so you can feel how pointless your actions are. You can ad-hominem who you want. Feel free to not read mine.
90
@88 The smart money says you can't resist a reply. Because you come for the discussion, but you stay for the slander.
91
89, I am entertained by both Loveschild and you. I will respond to whomever I want however I want. Enjoy.
92
@85 Actually, the topic is gays in the military turning straight soldiers into sex slaves, so this time we're actually on topic.
MikeC and Loveschild are trying to say gays are too perverted to be allowed to serve openly. Then we're countering with no they're not really all that perverted, and actually straights are pretty perverted too and no one should be discriminated against because of tired stereotypes.
MikeC and Loveschild are trying to say gays are too perverted to be allowed to serve openly. Then we're countering with no they're not really all that perverted, and actually straights are pretty perverted too and no one should be discriminated against because of tired stereotypes.
94
The reason they do not allow gays in the military is that the leaders of the military industrial complex use a combination of homosexual hazing and blackmail to keep loyalty to particular parts of the chain of command. It's not the privates and sergeants that can't handle integration, it's the generals and retired generals who lead the civilian groups who contract with the DOD that can't handle it.
They are not going to let gays into the military until the power structure finds alternate ways of using hazing, taboos and blackmail to subvert the will of the people. All this bullshit taking the arguments about gays hurting the military seriously is laughable. Those arguments are lies. You can't control the military industrial complex with blackmail based on homosexual hazing if homosexuality is permitted.
They are not going to let gays into the military until the power structure finds alternate ways of using hazing, taboos and blackmail to subvert the will of the people. All this bullshit taking the arguments about gays hurting the military seriously is laughable. Those arguments are lies. You can't control the military industrial complex with blackmail based on homosexual hazing if homosexuality is permitted.
95
salon.com/politics/war_room/2009/09/14/d…
salon.com/politics/war_room
/2009/09/14/dadt/
update the link
salon.com/politics/war_room
/2009/09/14/dadt/
update the link
96
SgGNo, this is most interesting and intriguing. from where do you get this information? any published proof? interviews with anonymous sources. c'mon, spill.
97
Virtually every excuse made to keep gays out of the military were used to keep the military segregated before Harry Truman had the balls to desegregate the military (same guy who had the balls to fire MacArthur when he got too big for his uniform): will destroy morale, no one will sign up, blah fucking blah.
You idiots certainly seem to think that our soldiers are weak pantywaists if you think they can't handle serving with a couple of fags and dykes. Oh, their poor feelings might be hurt!!
You idiots certainly seem to think that our soldiers are weak pantywaists if you think they can't handle serving with a couple of fags and dykes. Oh, their poor feelings might be hurt!!
98
As an active-duty member of the USAF, I welcome the day in which openly gay peole will be allowed to serve. Why, you may ask?
1. I've never had to worry about a lack of professionalism with the few "out" (quoted for a reason, as their "out" status is usually in the "I haven't seen them engage in homosexuality with my own two eyes and their job is too valuable to fuck up" vein) gay personnel. They keep to themselves and keep the details of their relationships where they belong-outside of the workplace and ony shared over beers at a local pub. Unlike "straight" (quotation marks used again, and for the same reason) people who seem to believe that everyone wants to know who they were doing over the weekend, and are willing to go into details as soon as the higher-ups are out of the room. Of course, gay people (regardless of sexuality) who wanted to be kicked out are the exceptions that make the rule.
2. I've been hit on twice by "openly gay" personnel. Once in compliment form and once in a more blatant "You aren't proclaiming your heterosexuality, so you wanna go drink some beers in my bedroom?", mode. In contrast, it's the end of the week and I'd rather not waste valuable beer time in recounting tales of "straight, married with kids" Airmen (all ranks) who somehow manage to spend what could be an inordinate amount of time in the open showers at the gym. Or being available for AADD duty, but restricting their DD passengers to the "young, hung and dumb" contingent of drunken partiers and refusing to pick up women (even when they're traveling in groups, which would throw a serious fork into any accusation of rape). Or flat out telling me that "We men know what we really like, and my wife's deployed, so..."
3. Out homosexuals make dating easy. They eliminate potential competition (IOW, I don't have to worry about losing a prospective female partner to a closet case who *really* needs a beard) and simplify matters at the other end (reverse the situation, and I can avoid falling in love with someone who needs a merkin. I don't see the point in getting married to someone who won't fuck you, and I'm not horndog enough to see a wife who lets me sleep with other women while denying her presence in our conjugal bed as a "bonus")
4. Out homosexuals are less likely to do stupid things for love. "Out and proud" homosexuals can and do have dysfunctional relationships which they choose to endure despite the availability of more suitable mates, and they can find new partners with ease if the going gets too rough. "Closeted" homosexuals in the military don't/won't/"can't" have those options. The lack of available mates can be soul-crushing, and finding the "one" (if the closet case is too afraid to let himself/herself be outed for fear of reprisal or discharge from active duty) can cause unreasonable amounts of jealousy on their part *or* open them up to blackmail/coercion/sedition/abuse *if* the person that they choose to spend their romantic life with is... less than honorable. IOW, there's noone as pliant as a person who knows that their entire life can be upended with one call from the person who he or she "loves".
But, as I sign out, I'm mostly looking forward to the eventual overturn of DADT for Reason #3. Losing a good woman to a "straight gay" hurts. Losing your heart to a woman who'll never love you as much as she loves pussy (and she loves the pussy, even more than I do) hurts even more. And the distraction from the latter relationship caused more workplace stress than a thousand men checking out my backside in the shower could ever match.
More...
1. I've never had to worry about a lack of professionalism with the few "out" (quoted for a reason, as their "out" status is usually in the "I haven't seen them engage in homosexuality with my own two eyes and their job is too valuable to fuck up" vein) gay personnel. They keep to themselves and keep the details of their relationships where they belong-outside of the workplace and ony shared over beers at a local pub. Unlike "straight" (quotation marks used again, and for the same reason) people who seem to believe that everyone wants to know who they were doing over the weekend, and are willing to go into details as soon as the higher-ups are out of the room. Of course, gay people (regardless of sexuality) who wanted to be kicked out are the exceptions that make the rule.
2. I've been hit on twice by "openly gay" personnel. Once in compliment form and once in a more blatant "You aren't proclaiming your heterosexuality, so you wanna go drink some beers in my bedroom?", mode. In contrast, it's the end of the week and I'd rather not waste valuable beer time in recounting tales of "straight, married with kids" Airmen (all ranks) who somehow manage to spend what could be an inordinate amount of time in the open showers at the gym. Or being available for AADD duty, but restricting their DD passengers to the "young, hung and dumb" contingent of drunken partiers and refusing to pick up women (even when they're traveling in groups, which would throw a serious fork into any accusation of rape). Or flat out telling me that "We men know what we really like, and my wife's deployed, so..."
3. Out homosexuals make dating easy. They eliminate potential competition (IOW, I don't have to worry about losing a prospective female partner to a closet case who *really* needs a beard) and simplify matters at the other end (reverse the situation, and I can avoid falling in love with someone who needs a merkin. I don't see the point in getting married to someone who won't fuck you, and I'm not horndog enough to see a wife who lets me sleep with other women while denying her presence in our conjugal bed as a "bonus")
4. Out homosexuals are less likely to do stupid things for love. "Out and proud" homosexuals can and do have dysfunctional relationships which they choose to endure despite the availability of more suitable mates, and they can find new partners with ease if the going gets too rough. "Closeted" homosexuals in the military don't/won't/"can't" have those options. The lack of available mates can be soul-crushing, and finding the "one" (if the closet case is too afraid to let himself/herself be outed for fear of reprisal or discharge from active duty) can cause unreasonable amounts of jealousy on their part *or* open them up to blackmail/coercion/sedition/abuse *if* the person that they choose to spend their romantic life with is... less than honorable. IOW, there's noone as pliant as a person who knows that their entire life can be upended with one call from the person who he or she "loves".
But, as I sign out, I'm mostly looking forward to the eventual overturn of DADT for Reason #3. Losing a good woman to a "straight gay" hurts. Losing your heart to a woman who'll never love you as much as she loves pussy (and she loves the pussy, even more than I do) hurts even more. And the distraction from the latter relationship caused more workplace stress than a thousand men checking out my backside in the shower could ever match.
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