Slog
News & ArtsMonday, September 14, 2009
Crime Dead Girl
Posted by Charles Mudede on Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 10:39 AM
Why we must be universalists:
AMMAN, Jordan (CNN) — A 12-year-old Yemeni girl, who was forced into marriage, died during a painful childbirth that also killed her baby, a children's rights group said Monday.As we have universal standards for business transactions, we need universal standards for health management and the rights of children and adults. In short, we need a standard culture that corresponds with (develops along with) the standards of the global market.Fawziya Ammodi struggled for three days in labor, before dying of severe bleeding at a hospital on Friday, said the Seyaj Organization for the Protection of Children.
"Although the cause of her death was lack of medical care, the real case was the lack of education in Yemen and the fact that child marriages keep happening," said Seyaj President Ahmed al-Qureshi.
Born into an impoverished family in Hodeidah, Fawziya was forced to drop out of school and married off to a 24-year-old man last year, al-Qureshi said.
Child brides are commonplace in Yemen, especially in the Red Sea Coast where tribal customs hold sway. Hodeidah is the fourth largest city in Yemen and an important port.
More than half of all young Yemeni girls are married off before the age of 18 — many times to older men, some with more than one wife, a study by Sanaa University found.
1
Ah, but what's more important, individual rights or respecting the traditions of non-Western cultures? This same tug-of-war comes into play when we talk about "female circumcision."
3
Also, who defines what ages are the ages of "children" ? In Shakespeare's age, girls of 15 were commonly married. Now that is called "statutory rape". The concept of teenagers is a new, very modern one, since it wasn't so long ago here in the West that a young man of 16 could marry, hold property and vote. Not possible today. Yet still today 16 year olds in Zapatista country are treated as adults and participate in the struggle there.
Who gets to define these categories you speak of?
Anyway, I thought the idea of universalism died with Derrida's withing deconstruction.
Who gets to define these categories you speak of?
Anyway, I thought the idea of universalism died with Derrida's withing deconstruction.
4
That sounds great, Charles, but how would we implement our cultural bias universally? Do we invade and force other cultures into alignment with our worldview?
I agree 100% that a culture which would marry a girl off at 11 years old and expect her to bear children immediately is way fucked up. Backwards, even. But then I also recognize that cultural relativism applies to us all.
Sad story.
I agree 100% that a culture which would marry a girl off at 11 years old and expect her to bear children immediately is way fucked up. Backwards, even. But then I also recognize that cultural relativism applies to us all.
Sad story.
5
@3, in Shakespeare's age, it was also common to refrain from consummating the marriage till the younge bride menstruated. which was generally much later then (~14-16) than it is now (10-13).
6
This isn't just Western vs. Eastern... Keep in mind, parents here in this country occasionally kill their kids by refusing them medical treatment. And Washington's official sport seems to be child abuse. Before we talk about "universal standards", let's talk about "universal healthcare." Once you have healthcare for all, you're standards automatically rise. Before you take the anti-Arab racist route, check yourself.
7
Yemen . . . isn't that the same place that banned ice about six months ago, because Mohammad didn't have ice?
'Nuff said.
'Nuff said.
8
or, and I'm going to be deathly serious here, we need to realize that Saudi Arabia and Yemen are the primary sources of al-Qaeda volunteers, finance, and all their religious texts.
Not Afghanistan. Not even Pakistan. Definitely not Iraq.
Not Afghanistan. Not even Pakistan. Definitely not Iraq.
9
But our country is capitalist (at least that's what all the old, white men keep yelling at all the teabagger meetings). I think to them, selling women into slavery is the pinnacle of capitalism.
10
3 days in labor? Did this death occur because she was 12, or because she had a difficult labor? Adult women commonly die in labor in developing countries, and emergency C-sections would save most of them.
Not that I think it's OK to impregnate 12-year olds ... Rather, my point is that universal standards for health management and universal standards for the rights of children are different topics.
Not that I think it's OK to impregnate 12-year olds ... Rather, my point is that universal standards for health management and universal standards for the rights of children are different topics.
11
@10,
It's highly common for very young mothers to have difficult childbirth, which is why consummation used to be put off until later as noted @5. There's also a highly correlation between backwards cultures and societies that lack adequate health care services. Why do you think the Taliban and al Qaeda are so scared of modernity?
It's highly common for very young mothers to have difficult childbirth, which is why consummation used to be put off until later as noted @5. There's also a highly correlation between backwards cultures and societies that lack adequate health care services. Why do you think the Taliban and al Qaeda are so scared of modernity?
12
Islam has kept countries like Yemen hundreds of years behind the times. Get rid of Islam, problem solved.
14
@10 - she was 12 when she was giving birth ... which means she was ... (ick) 11? when her "husband" got her pregnant.
15
Charles,
In principle, the UN does provide safeguards against expolitation of children & women. In reality, those safeguards clearly don't prevent this kind of tragedy.
I am not so sure that we should all be universalists. Imposition of culture even one that I believe offers the best manifestations of human civilization (Occidental, for example) is tricky business. I agree with @4 cultural relativism applies to all of us. In addition, "universal standards of health care" would be impossible to meet. Too many countries suffer from underdevelopment. I don't doubt your sincerity or the nobility of your goal but it simply won't happen.
In principle, the UN does provide safeguards against expolitation of children & women. In reality, those safeguards clearly don't prevent this kind of tragedy.
I am not so sure that we should all be universalists. Imposition of culture even one that I believe offers the best manifestations of human civilization (Occidental, for example) is tricky business. I agree with @4 cultural relativism applies to all of us. In addition, "universal standards of health care" would be impossible to meet. Too many countries suffer from underdevelopment. I don't doubt your sincerity or the nobility of your goal but it simply won't happen.
16
I have a question for the cultural relativists here, actually the same question I always have for the cultural relativists but that they never seem to want to debate: if such things as child rape, female circumcision and honor killings are non-western 'traditions' that should be respected what of such traditions as slavery and cannibalism? I would say there are some traditions that are simply beyond the pale, universally abhorrent as Charles suggests, and it is in the best interest of humanity to work tirelessly to completely eradicate them.
17
@11 - I mostly agree. However, there are many countries in the world with insufficient healthcare infrastructure that also think impregnating a 12-year old is a crime.
18
@16
I agree comepletely. Slavery is practiced in Sudan however. It's been documented. I don't know of a "culture" today that tolerates "cannibalism". I don't respect child rape, female circumcision and honor killings under any circumstances. Heck, I believe the burqa is repressive (I've just been to Egypt and saw women sporting black fully veiled burqas with only one eyelet in the 115 degree sun!).
You're not gonna get an arguement. It's a problem of "imposition". It may take generations (centuries?) for cultures to be enlightened. In the meantime, I believe we have cultural relativism.
One other thing I wanted to mention. I don't think we, the West should expand cutural relativism. Many years ago King County Public Health considered teaching hygienic female circumcision to offset the possibility of it being practiced unhygienically. I had an argument with my girlfriend at the time. I did NOT want it practiced under any circumstances. In fact, I wanted any practioner prosecuted. I also believe the burqa should be prohibited.
I agree comepletely. Slavery is practiced in Sudan however. It's been documented. I don't know of a "culture" today that tolerates "cannibalism". I don't respect child rape, female circumcision and honor killings under any circumstances. Heck, I believe the burqa is repressive (I've just been to Egypt and saw women sporting black fully veiled burqas with only one eyelet in the 115 degree sun!).
You're not gonna get an arguement. It's a problem of "imposition". It may take generations (centuries?) for cultures to be enlightened. In the meantime, I believe we have cultural relativism.
One other thing I wanted to mention. I don't think we, the West should expand cutural relativism. Many years ago King County Public Health considered teaching hygienic female circumcision to offset the possibility of it being practiced unhygienically. I had an argument with my girlfriend at the time. I did NOT want it practiced under any circumstances. In fact, I wanted any practioner prosecuted. I also believe the burqa should be prohibited.
19
The Faith and Freedom Network agrees with your call for a standard culture.
I’m not necessarily opposed to arranged marriages or unfixed age limits (within reason) for consent to marry cross culturally – I am however very opposed to forced marriages and any type of forced sexual mutilation or activity. It is certainly okay to openly abhor such practices but preaching universal rights & wrongs is touchy and culturally invasive – especially since such practices are most common under impoverished conditions. Education based on empirical biological facts might be the most effective way to influence people, but, like you said, how we go about world trade interactions is important because as long as there is poverty and ignorance there will be suffering.
I’m not necessarily opposed to arranged marriages or unfixed age limits (within reason) for consent to marry cross culturally – I am however very opposed to forced marriages and any type of forced sexual mutilation or activity. It is certainly okay to openly abhor such practices but preaching universal rights & wrongs is touchy and culturally invasive – especially since such practices are most common under impoverished conditions. Education based on empirical biological facts might be the most effective way to influence people, but, like you said, how we go about world trade interactions is important because as long as there is poverty and ignorance there will be suffering.
20
@ 16,
I don’t know any anthropologist who condones child rape or even female circumcision. Most express, when asked, that they find such acts as equally barbaric in other cultures as in their own.
Keep in mind, child rape happens here too, and we have many forms of genital mutilation; male circumcision, breast jobs, prince-alberts etc. Yes, apples & oranges compared to what Charles is writing about. But when making observations of other cultures as with our own one must be careful to separate and acknowledge their bias from their observations (as much as one can).
Obviously this is an intensely controversial issue worthy of much reflection.
I don’t know any anthropologist who condones child rape or even female circumcision. Most express, when asked, that they find such acts as equally barbaric in other cultures as in their own.
Keep in mind, child rape happens here too, and we have many forms of genital mutilation; male circumcision, breast jobs, prince-alberts etc. Yes, apples & oranges compared to what Charles is writing about. But when making observations of other cultures as with our own one must be careful to separate and acknowledge their bias from their observations (as much as one can).
Obviously this is an intensely controversial issue worthy of much reflection.
22
13
"What year is it there? Two thousand B.C.E.?"
I does appear that different parts of the world exist in different cultural times. I would argue that parts of Yemen are definitely living in the 1500's. While Dubai has already propelled forward to around 2015.
The USA (like most places) experiences multiple cultural ages simultaneously; depending where you live it could be anywhere between 1850 and 2009. Actually, I think some small isolated areas are already living between 2012-2020.
It would be quite interesting to produce a map that gauged relative cultural era. We could use various cultural factors to assess a region's era; When those factors occured in history, and if a region is still practicing them, or has moved onward (or backward).
Possible Factors: Types of economic transactions, women's equality, the hold of inaccurate religious beliefs, quality of healthcare, communication systems, transport, use of fire, the dispensing of justice/punishment; to name a few obvious ones. Although deciding on each of these would spawn much debate, I imagine.
"What year is it there? Two thousand B.C.E.?"
I does appear that different parts of the world exist in different cultural times. I would argue that parts of Yemen are definitely living in the 1500's. While Dubai has already propelled forward to around 2015.
The USA (like most places) experiences multiple cultural ages simultaneously; depending where you live it could be anywhere between 1850 and 2009. Actually, I think some small isolated areas are already living between 2012-2020.
It would be quite interesting to produce a map that gauged relative cultural era. We could use various cultural factors to assess a region's era; When those factors occured in history, and if a region is still practicing them, or has moved onward (or backward).
Possible Factors: Types of economic transactions, women's equality, the hold of inaccurate religious beliefs, quality of healthcare, communication systems, transport, use of fire, the dispensing of justice/punishment; to name a few obvious ones. Although deciding on each of these would spawn much debate, I imagine.
23
@22 ummm.... Dubai? Dubai imports wage slaves and construction workers die on-site daily. The disparity between wealth and the poor is magnified like 1000% compared to the US.
25
i reaaaalllly don't understand Charles' last point: WHY should cultural standards be married to standards of the global market? why the fuck should child rape go along with anything in any market anywhere? that makes the idea of a "universal" standard not universal at all.
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