Slog
News & ArtsThursday, September 10, 2009
Sports The Results
Posted by Charles Mudede on Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 3:17 PM
The latest on Caster Semenya:
Tests show that controversial runner Caster Semenya is a woman ...and a man!If this is indeed true, is it really fair to strip her of the gold medal? Caster still is a woman.The 18-year-old South African champ has no womb or ovaries and her testosterone levels are more than three times higher than those of a normal female, according to reports.
The tests, ordered by The International Association of Athletics Federations after Semenya's 800-meter victory in the World Championships, determined she's a hermaphrodite - having both male and female organs.
Semenya could be stripped of the gold medal she won in Berlin last month and her competitive future is in limbo, according to Australia's Daily Telegraph.
Thanks goes to tipper Kitschnsync
1
No, it's not fair. Beyond that, it's hateful and petty. The shame she must feel has to be almost crippling, it's terrible that she's been put through this.
2
s/he is PARTIALLY a woman
doesn't make zir any less of a person, but if the competition is women-only it is presumably 100%-woman only
doesn't make zir any less of a person, but if the competition is women-only it is presumably 100%-woman only
5
If she has no womb or ovaries, (and I can already see I'm going to be dense and possibly offensive here) what part of her is woman or man? Does she have a vulva, a penis? Is the indication chromosomal? Is this more her personal business than mine? Why should I know this about her? When her 'condition'/state/whatever was discovered, shouldn't the only information to have been released merely been: "she was qualified to run in this race" and her dignity allowed to remain? How unfair that her 'condition'/state/whatever has been announced to the world.
8
I thought male/female-ness was determined at the chromosomal level? And that we commonly view there being only two possibilities, when in actuality there is small number of "other" which we class as hermaphrodites, regardless of what external manifestations (genitalia characteristics, etc.) may be present?
10
"Qualifies as female" is strictly up to the sport. Sports are, by definition, activities defined by an arbitrary set of rules determined by whoever is sponsoring the contest so it doesn't matter what the medical or biological definition is. If a sport wants to define female as "owns a Toyota pickup" then that is their prerogative. Now if you wanted to organize a boycott or if the governing authority was a government entity, that's another question.
12
Guys. Everybody. Listen. Can we please use the word "intersexed" instead of "hermaphrodite?" It is 2009. It is 2009!
Thanks.
Thanks.
13
Can someone please write a Slog primer on intersexed people? You know, the "I" in LGBTI?
The six main biological determinants of sex/gender:
1) Gender identity - Mostly determined through genetics and prenatal (in womb) hormones.
2) Chromosomal - XX, XY, XO, XXY, XYY, XXX, XXXY, etc.
3) Gonads - Internal/external, ovaries/testes, typical/chimera, or none.
4) Internal genitalia - Fallopians, vas deferens, uterus, seminal vesicles, cervix, etc.
5) External genitalia - Penis, outer vagina, vulva, scrotum, etc.
6) Hormones - Testosterone, estrogen, progesterone, etc. These determine secondary sex characteristics as well as the structural brain "differences" between adult women and men. FTM's and MTF's show the same brain structure as cisgendered people after about 2 years of hormone treatment.
At least 2-3% of humanity have some intersex variation in one or more of these categories that is not the typical pattern. There are quite a few people who have variations from the "typical" chromosomal, hormonal, or internal organ structural and don't even know it. "True" hermaphrodites that have complete male and female external genitalia are extremely rare or possibly mythical.
More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
The six main biological determinants of sex/gender:
1) Gender identity - Mostly determined through genetics and prenatal (in womb) hormones.
2) Chromosomal - XX, XY, XO, XXY, XYY, XXX, XXXY, etc.
3) Gonads - Internal/external, ovaries/testes, typical/chimera, or none.
4) Internal genitalia - Fallopians, vas deferens, uterus, seminal vesicles, cervix, etc.
5) External genitalia - Penis, outer vagina, vulva, scrotum, etc.
6) Hormones - Testosterone, estrogen, progesterone, etc. These determine secondary sex characteristics as well as the structural brain "differences" between adult women and men. FTM's and MTF's show the same brain structure as cisgendered people after about 2 years of hormone treatment.
At least 2-3% of humanity have some intersex variation in one or more of these categories that is not the typical pattern. There are quite a few people who have variations from the "typical" chromosomal, hormonal, or internal organ structural and don't even know it. "True" hermaphrodites that have complete male and female external genitalia are extremely rare or possibly mythical.
More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
14
From other news reports, it sounds like they won't strip her of the gold medal she already won, but she won't be allowed to compete at other events.
15
#1, I blame her trainers and coaches, who should have had this handled, privately, a long time ago.
17
@12: Nope, sorry. I'm gonna sit tight on "hermaphrodite" (yikes) because some other identity politico will come up with a word to supplant intersexed in about 10 years.
And if she has girl parts, do they lead to chamber in her body that resembles this: http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/re… ???
Help me out here...
And if she has girl parts, do they lead to chamber in her body that resembles this: http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/re… ???
Help me out here...
18
Isn't the answer obvious?
Have men's, women's, and intersexed events at the Olympics. So far, South Africa has the fastest intersexed person alive... are we going to let that stand?
Have men's, women's, and intersexed events at the Olympics. So far, South Africa has the fastest intersexed person alive... are we going to let that stand?
19
#5 based on her anecdotes about being challenged at bathrooms and offering to show her hardware (and assuming she wasn't bluffing), I'd say she has fairly typical external female characteristics (possibly an enlarged clitoris), but based on the testosterone levels, I'd guess that she has undescended testicles in lieu of ovaries.
20
@12
I don't really understand why all of a sudden it's not okay to use a term that has had a technically specific scientific meaning for a long time. It's not a pejorative. It's as if someone had suddenly decided that we had to call people who can't express pigment "extrachromatic" instead of albino, because albino was now gauche and backwards. It doesn't make sense.
In this case it's not entirely accurate since "hermaphroditic" refers to an individual with both sets of sex organs and she apparently lacks at least some of those, but nevertheless.
Using "intersexed" to refer to the community of people with biologically unusual gender conditions is fine. Trying to remove technically accurate terminology from the language in the interests of political correctness isn't.
I don't really understand why all of a sudden it's not okay to use a term that has had a technically specific scientific meaning for a long time. It's not a pejorative. It's as if someone had suddenly decided that we had to call people who can't express pigment "extrachromatic" instead of albino, because albino was now gauche and backwards. It doesn't make sense.
In this case it's not entirely accurate since "hermaphroditic" refers to an individual with both sets of sex organs and she apparently lacks at least some of those, but nevertheless.
Using "intersexed" to refer to the community of people with biologically unusual gender conditions is fine. Trying to remove technically accurate terminology from the language in the interests of political correctness isn't.
21
It's a kind of sign of the times. Nature has always created people with mixed sexes. Hermaphrodites if you will, intersexed for sticklers. Sometimes they were worshipped. Mostly they were wonders and curiosities. Now we villafy them for not choosing the proper sex to compete in a race. Poo. Leave her alone. Let her race. Grow the fuck up. What else can you do? Make her run in the Special Olympics?
22
It just has to suck to be outed as a hermie like that. Finding out has gotta be pretty shitty to begin with, but having it broadcast worldwide would be devastating.
23
#20 one might consider it pejorative in the same sense that "homosexual" is now considered by many to be pejorative. Gays don't really use the term, it's cold and clinical, and it's been co-opted by the haters as a scare word. Similarly, most of us aren't doctors, and the typical person's exposure to "hermaphrodite" has consisted of schoolyard grossout sessions and jokes among friends.
#18 is the direction the conversation should be going (it's frankly the only interesting part of the whole fiasco. Intersex? zzzz), unfortunately it's mostly tabloid bullshit about whether she tucks or has man hands or long ring fingers.
That said, it isn't quite the right solution. Making people out themselves as intersexed is problematic, for one, and furthermore male/female/intersex is still false dichotomy. With the multitude of intersex conditions out there, an athlete might fall anywhere on a long and complicated male to female continuum. Even if you could decide how to divide them, would you ask someone who is "barely" intersex on the female side to compete against someone who is "barely" intersex on the male side?
#18 is the direction the conversation should be going (it's frankly the only interesting part of the whole fiasco. Intersex? zzzz), unfortunately it's mostly tabloid bullshit about whether she tucks or has man hands or long ring fingers.
That said, it isn't quite the right solution. Making people out themselves as intersexed is problematic, for one, and furthermore male/female/intersex is still false dichotomy. With the multitude of intersex conditions out there, an athlete might fall anywhere on a long and complicated male to female continuum. Even if you could decide how to divide them, would you ask someone who is "barely" intersex on the female side to compete against someone who is "barely" intersex on the male side?
24
@18: It's not practical because of what 13 said. Lots more people than you would think have intersex features from one or more of those categories. But the only ones that get attention are the externally obvious ones. That isn't really an equitable definition.
Would you define the intersex competition eligibility by looks? Or would you define it by another criterion -- which would require everyone to be tested?
Would you define the intersex competition eligibility by looks? Or would you define it by another criterion -- which would require everyone to be tested?
26
This is so fucking ridiculous - shows how bigoted, uninformed, and fearful people in this world are. No, she shouldn't loose her medals. Semenya is a person - a person who can't be defined by the restrictive lines that our society has drawn to make sense of the world - making her even more unique and fucking amazing! The way this was handled was undignified.
27
she apparently has androgen insensitivity syndrome. she's XY but lacks receptors to masculinizing hormones. most people with AIS appear female externally, but often possess some masculine characteristics and/or sex organs. many people with this condition never know they have it.
28
@26, the medals aren't there for persons, they're there for women. She has an unfair advantage over her competitors. It's perhaps a rotten deal that there are no special competitions for the intersexed, but that doesn't mean she should be allowed in women-only competition.
Oh, and "loose" is wrong. You want "lose".
Oh, and "loose" is wrong. You want "lose".
29
@28: I'll repeat my question from an earlier thread: at what level of manliness does someone who lives as a woman lose their claim to being a woman? Having a precise definition for this is especially important if we want fair criteria for qualifications for athletic competitions.
If masculine traits amount to "an unfair advantage," then shouldn't we strip Martina Navritolova of her successes? Does Michelle Wie have more testosterone the average woman? This is not the simple question that your comment tries to make it out to be.
If masculine traits amount to "an unfair advantage," then shouldn't we strip Martina Navritolova of her successes? Does Michelle Wie have more testosterone the average woman? This is not the simple question that your comment tries to make it out to be.
30
She clearly does NOT have AIS. Women with AIS do not have the receptor for androgens and therefore end up appearing very, very female rather than appearing rather masculine. Caster clearly is not having any trouble responding to her high testosterone levels.
31
christieb [30]: not if she has incomplete AIS:
"Persons with incomplete AIS may have both male and female physical characteristics"
***
curious though, do sports organizations have established criteria to determine one's gender? is there disqualifying level of testosterone, above which a person is no longer qualified to compete as a woman? unless such criteria exist and are explicitly detailed somewhere, it would be unfair to strip her of her achievements. she earned them.
"Persons with incomplete AIS may have both male and female physical characteristics"
***
curious though, do sports organizations have established criteria to determine one's gender? is there disqualifying level of testosterone, above which a person is no longer qualified to compete as a woman? unless such criteria exist and are explicitly detailed somewhere, it would be unfair to strip her of her achievements. she earned them.
32
@28 Well, we could always make the Special Olympics live up to its name and become more inclusive by expanding it to welcome intersex people who can't qualify to compete in the non-special competitions.
33
While I do think she's at an unfair advantage when competing in women's sports, my heart breaks for this 18-year-old who has been officially labeled a freak by newspaper headlines all over the world. No matter how spiritually strong a person is, this cannot be anything close to easy. I hope she's all right.
34
How is she "intersexed" if she doesn't have female sex organs? I'm going with androgen insensitivity syndrome, which is easy enough to test for -- a hermaphrodite has both sex organs; someone with AIS is missing female sex organs (and male). They need to go with DNA rather than organs (esp if you can be "intersexed" without any female sex organs). It makes the most sense until someone tests her DNA. (Why the hell are they looking at her sex organs before a DNA test, anyway?)
christieb @30, a lotta women look rather masculine -- I think 'masculine' is a rather subjective value. And AIS is a rather common way for women to be genetically male but not male, without all the extra chromosomes.
Regardless, Caster kicked some ass out there on the road. She's as much a woman as the rest of us women.
christieb @30, a lotta women look rather masculine -- I think 'masculine' is a rather subjective value. And AIS is a rather common way for women to be genetically male but not male, without all the extra chromosomes.
Regardless, Caster kicked some ass out there on the road. She's as much a woman as the rest of us women.
35
Sadly, the medal needs to be stripped from her. From IAAF on Gender Verification, regarding transgender but seemingly to apply to all:
"The crux of the matter is that the athlete should not be enjoying the benefits of natural testosterone predominance normally seen in a male."
Since she had 3 times the testosterone of the other runners, she had an unfair advantage.
"The crux of the matter is that the athlete should not be enjoying the benefits of natural testosterone predominance normally seen in a male."
Since she had 3 times the testosterone of the other runners, she had an unfair advantage.
36
@35 - then menopausal women would be at an unfair advantage in over 50 weightlifting competitions.
Look, there are 26 choromosomes, and the last four are X (DXS#), XY (DXYS#), Y (DYS#), and X/Y (no Ds with an allele on X and an allele on Y).
It depends on which scientific definition you're using.
Look, there are 26 choromosomes, and the last four are X (DXS#), XY (DXYS#), Y (DYS#), and X/Y (no Ds with an allele on X and an allele on Y).
It depends on which scientific definition you're using.
38
How is taking advantage of your body's production of extra testosterone more unfair than taking advantage of your body's long legs or natural leanness? Olympic athletes are the fastest, strongest, most flexible people in the world. We should expect them to be out of the ordinary.
41
I think that disallowing someone from competing due to their natural physical state is the height of bigotry. The whole reason we don't allow people to do things like use artificial testosterone is that we don't want to encourage people to do dangerous things in the name of winning. But this woman didn't do anything to herself at all except live.
Really, where do these people think she should have been competing? In the men's race? Or are we just saying that her natural biological condition should automatically disqualify her?
Blood hell, this offends me.
Really, where do these people think she should have been competing? In the men's race? Or are we just saying that her natural biological condition should automatically disqualify her?
Blood hell, this offends me.
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