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News & ArtsThursday, September 10, 2009
Savage Love Savage Love Letter of the Day
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 3:55 PM
You are possible the only person in the world who could actually give me advice on this.I am a 33-year-old bi female involved with a married couple for the past year. We spend all our time together and they are the best friends I've ever had. Recently I've been feeling guilty about the situation due to the fact that "our relationship" has turned into two separate relationships. She and I havent had any kind of intamacy in 7 months; he and I have sex at least once a day. She never has been all that sexual with him or me and sex has always been kinda on her terms and her basis. She still has sex with him once in a while so now I feel it's only me she doesn't want to be with. I don't like feeling like I'm having a affair with a married man. It was diffrent when the sex was shared and enjoyable for everyone. I have tried to talk with her about this but she hates talking about emotional things.
It's killing me and I cant sleep. We all share the same bed and when I lay down I feel like I shouldn't be there, like I'm the third wheel. Things are not the same but I know that feeling "normal" does not pertain to this situation because things were never normal to begin with. I don't have anyone to talk to about this so I'm reaching out for any advice you have. I know she loves me and I LOVE her but I can't continue to act like everything is okay.
Killing All Emotions
My answer after the jump...
Forgive me for this: maybe she's just not that into you, KAE. Or maybe she's just not that into you sexually. Or maybe she's just not that into sex generally. Who knows? She does, most likely, but she's not talking. Which means you can either reconcile yourself to the way things are now—she's one of your best friends, you share a sex partner and a bed, but she's not your lover—and stay in this relationship(s), KAE, or you can go.
Those are pretty much your only options, KAE. It's not great advice, I'll admit, and just about anyone could've come up with it. Even Prudence. But since I really don't have any more info to work with here than you do—I don't know what's up that bitch either—it's the best I can do.
But here's a lovely parting shot: the fact that you're involved with a couple—even this particular couple—is of less concern to me than the fact that you don't have anyone in your life that you can talk with about your relationship. Being isolated is always bad, KAE, and if these two are isolating you somehow—if they don't allow to speak with anyone about your relationship—then you should end this thing immediately.
1
Or maybe she's just asexual.
Seriously, if the writer feels like she's a "third wheel," it's probably because she is. Maybe it's time to move on.
Seriously, if the writer feels like she's a "third wheel," it's probably because she is. Maybe it's time to move on.
2
Dan won't tell you because he doesn't believe in that sort of thing but the fact is that you're a slut.
5
That last paragraph is right on the money. If the OP doesn't feel like she's able to talk about this with either of the other parties in the relationship, there are more issues here than the other woman's disengagement.
One other thought. I remember seeing an interview with Ringo Starr once when he talked about quitting the Beatles (temporarily) at around the time of the White Album. He went to each other member individually and said words to the effect of "I'm leaving because you 3 are a crew and I'm on the outside". Each of them in turn said "I thought it was you 3".
One other thought. I remember seeing an interview with Ringo Starr once when he talked about quitting the Beatles (temporarily) at around the time of the White Album. He went to each other member individually and said words to the effect of "I'm leaving because you 3 are a crew and I'm on the outside". Each of them in turn said "I thought it was you 3".
7
#2, you call her a "slut" like that's a bad thing. Its better to be what you call a slut than a sanctimonious troll.
8
What was that book...Smart Dudes, Foolish Chicks? Seriously, the whole "bi-couple" thing is a lot of hooey.
Take me...single, divorced. It seems like all the time these couples sit next to me, like when I'm having some teriaki at Southcenter, and the dude in the couple looks my way.
Now, I'm totally pro-gay in the abstract, but when it comes to moi...well, Homie Don't Play Dat!
Anyway, most married couples are gamers and scammers. They are always trying to get something for nothing from single people, and then run back to their safe jobs, houses and relationships.
If dude wants outside sex, make him pay for it. Every night? For free? And he's married? I want to know how come these rules never work in my favor? When I was married it was always "oh, you're married, sorry" -- but then this guy gets it from both sides and everyone's happy.
Why (not) me?!
Take me...single, divorced. It seems like all the time these couples sit next to me, like when I'm having some teriaki at Southcenter, and the dude in the couple looks my way.
Now, I'm totally pro-gay in the abstract, but when it comes to moi...well, Homie Don't Play Dat!
Anyway, most married couples are gamers and scammers. They are always trying to get something for nothing from single people, and then run back to their safe jobs, houses and relationships.
If dude wants outside sex, make him pay for it. Every night? For free? And he's married? I want to know how come these rules never work in my favor? When I was married it was always "oh, you're married, sorry" -- but then this guy gets it from both sides and everyone's happy.
Why (not) me?!
9
i think dan's last paragraph hits the nail on the head. in addition to getting some friends, she needs her own bedroom, or even her own place. the problem isn't who you are fucking and who you aren't, it's how you are living, and what you've begun to believe you are responsible.
10
He likes sex, she doesn't so much. She's happy you like sex with him because she knows who he's fucking. He has the best of both worlds. I say just go along with it. Having sex with him every day and once in a while with her sounds o.k. to me. Just ask them if they are happy. If they say yes, don't let it worry you.
11
2, your pastor won't tell you because he doesn't believe in this sort of thing, but the fact that you jack off to professional wrestling every night probably means you're gay.
If you can stir up the courage to come out of the closet and accept yourself as you are, maybe you'll stop being an uptight asshole who feels the need to flame the comment sections of dirty, godless sex columns.
If you can stir up the courage to come out of the closet and accept yourself as you are, maybe you'll stop being an uptight asshole who feels the need to flame the comment sections of dirty, godless sex columns.
12
I was in a three way relationship that was comprised of three men- I was like KAE, aka the "third wheel" (they had been together for 9 years before we met). We were very clear about expectations going in, and I made it very clear that the last thing I wanted was to drive a wedge between them. Only problem was, Guy A was carefree and and wanted to have sex constantly, and the Guy B was more reserved and unfortunately prone to jealousy. It took constant juggling and reassurance, and in the end it became too much and I chose to leave.
But hey, it was fun while it lasted... and you haven't lived until you've had two people blow you at the same time.
But hey, it was fun while it lasted... and you haven't lived until you've had two people blow you at the same time.
13
@10 hits the nail right on the head. But if you do leave, take him with you. Trust me, I'm sure that he loves her but without sex the marriage would be crushing for him and just dandy for her. You're the only thing making the marriage bearable for him and the only think keeping them together.
14
She's worrying about nothing. The fact that she's fucking the husband every day while the wife witholds sex from both of them tells me that the wife is the 3rd wheel, not her.
Assuming there are no kids or financial baggage involved here, if this woman leaves, I'll bet you anything the husband follows her, at least he knows what's good for him.
Sex negative wife + randy husband == misery.
Assuming there are no kids or financial baggage involved here, if this woman leaves, I'll bet you anything the husband follows her, at least he knows what's good for him.
Sex negative wife + randy husband == misery.
15
Dan's last paragraph is spot on, KAE. But I'd like to add another thought.
She's clearly straight. Don't take it personally that she's "not that into you." As a matter of fact, that she'd even try to maintain a sexual relationship with you, even though she's straight, says a lot about how she feels toward you.
But she married a man. She's very, very, very likely straight. But she also seems very, very cool. She doesn't demand (or even seem to want) monogamy. He's happy. She's happy. You should be happy too.
You're not the fifth wheel. You're a bi girl in a relationship with two straight people who want you there. You say you know that she loves you. Then trust that. Leave it alone.
It's not a bad thing that she's not into you. She's just a straight girl who seems to be the coolest wife ever. Be her friend. Be his friend/lover. Everyone can stay happy in this if you don't worry too much.
She's clearly straight. Don't take it personally that she's "not that into you." As a matter of fact, that she'd even try to maintain a sexual relationship with you, even though she's straight, says a lot about how she feels toward you.
But she married a man. She's very, very, very likely straight. But she also seems very, very cool. She doesn't demand (or even seem to want) monogamy. He's happy. She's happy. You should be happy too.
You're not the fifth wheel. You're a bi girl in a relationship with two straight people who want you there. You say you know that she loves you. Then trust that. Leave it alone.
It's not a bad thing that she's not into you. She's just a straight girl who seems to be the coolest wife ever. Be her friend. Be his friend/lover. Everyone can stay happy in this if you don't worry too much.
16
And this is exactly the type of dramatic bullshit I think of when my swinger friends get on about monogamy being against human nature. Monogamy is dumb, yet they are all miserable even though they get to fuck whoever/whatever/whenever they want.
18
@16 the poly are really into the drama, but i do think we're so accustomed to mono drama, we're overly hard on the poly. i hear a fuck of a lot of mono-drama (SL is full of it as well) but experience has honed my ability to ignore them. i'm not sure they are actually more dramatic, but they need to stop opening with how superior their lifestyle is, and closing with 17 paragraphs of ka-ray-zay.
19
#14.
She's worried about hurting their marriage, I think. And it speaks well of her that she's worried. But I don't think she has anything to worry about.
She's worrying about nothing.
She's worried about hurting their marriage, I think. And it speaks well of her that she's worried. But I don't think she has anything to worry about.
20
Turn the unregistered comments off. Problem disappears.
@ Vince and Jade,
I think you might be on to something. The wife is straight and has lost interest in the husband. To keep him happy and with her she's allowing the mistress to live with them. The only one that's unhappy with this is the bi-girl.
@ Vince and Jade,
I think you might be on to something. The wife is straight and has lost interest in the husband. To keep him happy and with her she's allowing the mistress to live with them. The only one that's unhappy with this is the bi-girl.
21
Meh. Sounds controlling.
If it hasn't went bad yet, it's on the downward spiral, FAST.
But I'm no expert.
If it hasn't went bad yet, it's on the downward spiral, FAST.
But I'm no expert.
22
I was in a situation similar to this a few years ago. Actually, your description sounds exactly how I would have described my situation at the time. In my case, her pulling away from me meant she was no longer attracted to me and on top of that, she was jealous that I had such a healthy sexual relationship with her husband. She felt threatened. But instead of telling me any of that, she pulled away from him as well and started hating me and eventually the relationship ended in cataclysmic drama. I am now with him and she has moved to another state.
Looking back at it, I should have been able to see where things were going, but I didn't. Obviously, this isn't guaranteed to happen to you, but keep in mind that it could. That sort of drama is something you really really don't want, and while I'm happy in my relationship now, I lost a friend. And I have no nice, soft girl to screw.
Looking back at it, I should have been able to see where things were going, but I didn't. Obviously, this isn't guaranteed to happen to you, but keep in mind that it could. That sort of drama is something you really really don't want, and while I'm happy in my relationship now, I lost a friend. And I have no nice, soft girl to screw.
24
You might try an "Ally, ally oxen free" moment for the couple to speak their minds to you or forever hold their peace, as in: "Now's your chance to tell me if my having sex with your husband every single day is messing with your head. If you say yes, let's work on that. If you say no, then I will trust your word that you're actually just fine with it." And to him: "Now's your chance to tell me if our having sex every single day is messing with your love for your wife. If you say yes, let's work on that. If you say no, then I will trust your word that you're actually just fine with it." The catch, of course, is that if they both say no, we're just fine, then you have to trust them. Until it blows apart three months from now.
27
Certainly seems like KAE IS the third wheel, by design. The primary emotional relationship is between the married couple. Doesn't mean they don't both want her there though. I'm with 20 - sounds like the wife is less sexual than her husband, wants him to be happy and allows him to have sex with this other person all the time - sounds like the ultimate GGG to me, not like the wife is some jealous shrew.
Anyway, if KAE is no longer comfortable with the dynamics of the relationship, it's valid for her to question if it's still right for her. But KAE needs to look at it from how she's feeling, and not project her insecurities onto the wife.
Anyway, if KAE is no longer comfortable with the dynamics of the relationship, it's valid for her to question if it's still right for her. But KAE needs to look at it from how she's feeling, and not project her insecurities onto the wife.
28
Last relationship I was in, I would have killed to have her problems! Sounds like she mostly need to get that different people have different sex needs, and if the other woman isn't complaining, either there is no problem, or it's her problem as long as she won't talk about it.
Regarding poly drama, yeah. Monogamy is a joke, but polyamory is a rollercoaster o' bullshit. Makes a girl wanna get a cat.
Regarding poly drama, yeah. Monogamy is a joke, but polyamory is a rollercoaster o' bullshit. Makes a girl wanna get a cat.
29
Allow me to translate: The girlfriend hates the situation, but isn't saying so because she's afraid of losing the boyfriend. The letter writer is in love with the boyfriend, and secretly hopes he'll leave the girlfriend for her. The boyfriend is happy getting laid every day, but is too chicken-shit to ever leave the girlfriend.
The letter writer feels like a third wheel because she is. If the boyfriend was into her enough to want a relationship, he would have already left the girlfriend.
The letter writer feels like a third wheel because she is. If the boyfriend was into her enough to want a relationship, he would have already left the girlfriend.
30
Not everyone is into threesomes.
In fact they very rarely work for most people.
She should bail - not getting sleep is NEVER a good sign.
In fact they very rarely work for most people.
She should bail - not getting sleep is NEVER a good sign.
31
to the letter writer:
regardless of what your relationship is or who's involved, it's ultimately doomed if the person(s) involved refuse to communicate honestly. lots of people hate talking about emotional things. that doesn't mean you can just skip it because it's difficult. get both of these people a copy of a book about open relationships... the ethical slut, opening up, etc. and insist that they read it and that you all have a group conversation afterward.
it sounds like the wife has a lower sex drive in general, so it's possible that she has sex with the husband only once in awhile because she really only wants it once in awhile, and that she continues to have sex with him and not you because she feels more obligated to have sex with her husband than she feels obligated to have sex with a third party. but she needs to speak up, or she'll damage her relationship with both her husband and you.
if it really is just that she doesn't want sex that much, i don't think that would spell doom for all of you. far from it, it could spell a way for her marriage to continue and thrive!
regardless of what your relationship is or who's involved, it's ultimately doomed if the person(s) involved refuse to communicate honestly. lots of people hate talking about emotional things. that doesn't mean you can just skip it because it's difficult. get both of these people a copy of a book about open relationships... the ethical slut, opening up, etc. and insist that they read it and that you all have a group conversation afterward.
it sounds like the wife has a lower sex drive in general, so it's possible that she has sex with the husband only once in awhile because she really only wants it once in awhile, and that she continues to have sex with him and not you because she feels more obligated to have sex with her husband than she feels obligated to have sex with a third party. but she needs to speak up, or she'll damage her relationship with both her husband and you.
if it really is just that she doesn't want sex that much, i don't think that would spell doom for all of you. far from it, it could spell a way for her marriage to continue and thrive!
32
'If dude wants outside sex, make him pay for it. Every night? For free? And he's married? I want to know how come these rules never work in my favor? When I was married it was always "oh, you're married, sorry" -- but then this guy gets it from both sides and everyone's happy.
Why (not) me?!'
@8 - because you view it as more palatable for someone you're dating to sleep with random prostitutes than a friend? that seems like an obvious reason. while there are plenty of prostitutes who practice safer sex than your average joe on the street, i'd still feel more comfortable with someone i was dating sleeping with a friend we both knew well.
Why (not) me?!'
@8 - because you view it as more palatable for someone you're dating to sleep with random prostitutes than a friend? that seems like an obvious reason. while there are plenty of prostitutes who practice safer sex than your average joe on the street, i'd still feel more comfortable with someone i was dating sleeping with a friend we both knew well.
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