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News & ArtsSunday, August 30, 2009
Health Getting Your Kid To Eat Well
Posted by Dan Savage on Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 10:22 AM
It's really not that hard. Your kids will eat fruits and vegetables and greens if they see you eating fruits and vegetables and greens. They'll learn to exercise self discipline if they see you exercise it. They'll learn to indulge without binging if they see you indulge without binging. They'll learn to enjoy all sorts of different foods in moderation—including treats—if they see you enjoying all sorts of different foods in moderation. And no soda in the house—none for the kids, none for you.
The end.
There are a lot of parents out there who say they don't want their kids to eating nothing but crap and drinking nothing but soda who refuse to cut back on their own crap and soda consumption. Hello? When mom and dad eat crap washed down with corn syrup their kids do the same. The real problem with children's eating habits in America are adult eating habits in America. You can't set limits for your kids if you refuse to set limits for yourself. My kid can have milk or water at meals—which means his dads can have milk or water at meals. If we sat there and drank Coke during dinner, he'd feel deprived and resentful for being made to drink water or milk. (Similarly, no TV on school nights means no TV for him and no TV for us.) And Joan is right and Andrew is wrong:
Joan Yamini, a mother of one in Austin, Tex., said it was important not to have unhealthy foods around the house, but Andrew Segal, a father of three in Glen Ridge, N.J., said that children who can’t find cookies, ice cream and similar snacks at home can always find them elsewhere—and probably will.
You tend to eat what's in the house and not to miss what isn't. And, yeah, sometimes our kid will go find cookies and ice cream or crap elsewhere. But at least he had to go farther than his own kitchen to find those foods. Sometimes when he wants ice cream or cookies he has to—gasp!—get on his bike and ride to the store to get it. And, no, my kid isn't deprived, he doesn't have a complex, he isn't a budding anorexic.
1
It's not entirely that simple - some kids have texture issues, etc. But yeah, don't have that shit around and they won't get used to it. Also, keep offering things that they don't like - they say it takes 20 tries to start to like something. My kid loves marinated beets, broccoli, artichokes, avocados - he didn't like any of them the first try. It also helps if you get them involved in picking meals, shopping, and cooking.
3
It's really not that hard. Your kids will choose a homosexual lifestyle if they see you living a homosexual lifestyle. They'll reject women and seek buttsex with men if they see that it is what you do. If we sat there and had a homosexual lifestyle, he'd feel deprived and resentful for being made to date girls. The real problem with children's sexual behaviors in America are adult sexual behaviors in America. You can't set limits for your kids if you refuse to set limits for yourself. You tend to accept and see as normal what's in the house and not to miss what isn't.
4
@3 - Right, you fucking asshole, because deciding what to eat is just like deciding who to love. You are a sad, stupid person.
5
I don't think Dan drinks booze but I do think you can drink wine and beer with meals with your child and let them feel included. You do that by letting them have a sip of it; they'll hate it until they're 12 or 13 at least. By then alcohol won't be this forbidden mystery. When they start liking it let them have a very small glass of beer/wine with meals. Then they also learn that the best way to appreciate booze is as a compliment to food and in reasonable amounts.
Soda is pure evil when it's kept in the house. It should be a treat when you're out.
Soda is pure evil when it's kept in the house. It should be a treat when you're out.
7
When I was a child, lo those many, many years ago, treats really were a treat.
Soda was a saturday night only thing. Mom would pop a big pot of corn, we'd spread a waterproof tablecloth out on the living room rug, and we'd watch TV, eat popcorn and drink Pepsi (back when Pepsi came in those individual 12 oz. bottles).
Or when Dad was away, mom would stay up all night painting (rooms, not pictures. She loved to paint rooms) and drinking gallons of coffee. We could stay up late too, and have a Pepsi.
And we each got a box of sugary cereal on our birthday, but that was it. The rest of the time it was whatever the adults were eating.
On our birthdays, we took a bag of those mini candy bars to school, and handed them out, and sometimes we got a candy bar if we were good.
We did have loads of popsicles and ice cream in the summertime, but it was Iowa, and there was no air-conditioning, and we spent all day every day outside.
Other than that, there weren't that many sweets, and I don't remember missing them. Mom was a good cook, when she paid attention (which was about half the time) so we ate all sorts of unusual stuff, especially if Dad did the grocery shopping. If you wanted to eat, you pretty much had to eat what was put down in front of you. When we went out to the farms (I come from a big extended family of farmers and hunters) you really never knew what was going to be on the menu, but you ate it if you didn't want to go hungry.
And MacDonalds was only for Lenten Fridays, after we finally rebelled against fish sticks.
Soda was a saturday night only thing. Mom would pop a big pot of corn, we'd spread a waterproof tablecloth out on the living room rug, and we'd watch TV, eat popcorn and drink Pepsi (back when Pepsi came in those individual 12 oz. bottles).
Or when Dad was away, mom would stay up all night painting (rooms, not pictures. She loved to paint rooms) and drinking gallons of coffee. We could stay up late too, and have a Pepsi.
And we each got a box of sugary cereal on our birthday, but that was it. The rest of the time it was whatever the adults were eating.
On our birthdays, we took a bag of those mini candy bars to school, and handed them out, and sometimes we got a candy bar if we were good.
We did have loads of popsicles and ice cream in the summertime, but it was Iowa, and there was no air-conditioning, and we spent all day every day outside.
Other than that, there weren't that many sweets, and I don't remember missing them. Mom was a good cook, when she paid attention (which was about half the time) so we ate all sorts of unusual stuff, especially if Dad did the grocery shopping. If you wanted to eat, you pretty much had to eat what was put down in front of you. When we went out to the farms (I come from a big extended family of farmers and hunters) you really never knew what was going to be on the menu, but you ate it if you didn't want to go hungry.
And MacDonalds was only for Lenten Fridays, after we finally rebelled against fish sticks.
8
You and Joan have excellent points, but you're also universalizing your experiences.
Once kids start eating their peers at preschool and school, a lot of nutrition modeling goes out the door (along with many other things during the teen years) because of peer pressure and social status concerns.
There is also a "backfire" phenomenon that can happen: many kids who grow up eating bran muffins and spinach pesto, etc., rebel against this in the teen years or even in the 20s and seek out unhealthy "fun" food (junk food, etc.) right when their adult metabolisms start so slow down.
Also, lifetime eating habits correlate less to modeling of eating habits in childhood than to overall mental health status. So, even if you raise a child modeling perfect nutrition and eating habits, if you haven't addressed mental health issues that affect members of your family, poor eating habits may still develop.
Once kids start eating their peers at preschool and school, a lot of nutrition modeling goes out the door (along with many other things during the teen years) because of peer pressure and social status concerns.
There is also a "backfire" phenomenon that can happen: many kids who grow up eating bran muffins and spinach pesto, etc., rebel against this in the teen years or even in the 20s and seek out unhealthy "fun" food (junk food, etc.) right when their adult metabolisms start so slow down.
Also, lifetime eating habits correlate less to modeling of eating habits in childhood than to overall mental health status. So, even if you raise a child modeling perfect nutrition and eating habits, if you haven't addressed mental health issues that affect members of your family, poor eating habits may still develop.
9
I don't know, I think I agree with Andrew. I didn't have many snack foods around my house when I was young and I didn't notice it when I was at home. But when I went over to my friends' houses I would eat and eat all the delicious stuff they had while they barely even noticed it. But I was also on the swim team getting a good 10-12 hours of exercise per week so it really didn't matter.
11
Right, but many children will acquire the sense of deprivation and resentment from the knowledge that their friends can grab a Pepsi from the fridge any time of the day.
I agree that keeping junk out of the house -- or at the very least not stocking it in large quantities -- is a perfectly good policy. But no, it's not always that easy.
I agree that keeping junk out of the house -- or at the very least not stocking it in large quantities -- is a perfectly good policy. But no, it's not always that easy.
12
I think many people find having to put forth effort in finding and preparing healthy foods too much work. But it's like a lot of things. The more effort you put forth the greater the reward. But what I find really disheartening is they can't put out the effort for the sake of their kids. And kids learn everything from their parents behavior. Everything. So if you are too lazy to care about your kids, they will be the same way.
13
Please make it a policy to either quote entire NYTimes articles or not link to them, since we don't all have memberships that they require.
14
There's nothing more insufferable than a parent -- particularly one with the vast experience of raising exactly one kid -- who feels he (or she) has the expertise to give child-raising advice to the world.
15
#1 offers a lot of accurate insight into all of this. Kids do have more acute taste buds and some have texture issues. It does require a great deal of patience and consistency to get kids to eat some things. You sometimes do a bit of deal-making when it comes to the vegetables they eat. I hated green beans as a kid, but I liked beets. My brother was the reverse. So we would take turns choosing the vegetable with dinner. Involving kids in the cooking process does a lot toward making meal times less stressful.
As for sweets and things, it is all about moderation. We tend to bake/make all of our cookies, cake or ice cream, so A. there aren't weird things in it and B. we can also adjust the ingredients to make the final product a little more healthful.
Of course some things just don't enter the house. (soda, foods with HFCS) And as the kids grow you can have conversations with them about why you don't have such and such. Have them look at food labels when grocery shopping.
But Dan does have the basic idea down -model the behavior you want to see.
As for sweets and things, it is all about moderation. We tend to bake/make all of our cookies, cake or ice cream, so A. there aren't weird things in it and B. we can also adjust the ingredients to make the final product a little more healthful.
Of course some things just don't enter the house. (soda, foods with HFCS) And as the kids grow you can have conversations with them about why you don't have such and such. Have them look at food labels when grocery shopping.
But Dan does have the basic idea down -model the behavior you want to see.
16
For my kid, pop really is a treat. He'll touch only the pop with cane sugar or glucose/fructose (Canadian),, though, and rarely has it with meals. When he's beset by HFCS-only choices he'll stick to water or juice.
17
We don't do the soda, chips, etc. at our house. That's not to say those foods are a complete taboo, just that they aren't in the family budget. And, the better half and I would feel like hypocrites if we ate differently. We don't watch T.V. either, because there isn't time on school nights and we forget we own one by the time the weekend comes around.
Modeling by example is a positive way to teach the value of eating a balanced diet, exercise, treating others with respect, etc., and we're hopeful that our children follow our examples outside the home, but not foolish enough to think they always will choose to or even want to. Children often make the decision to rebel, in an attempt to assert their independence from their parents, our job is provide them the best example we can, discipline them when appropriate, keep the lines of communication open, and allow them to learn (and suffer the consequences, like when the 11 year old drank 6 cans of Sprite with his friends at at sleep over and had a wicked stomach ache.) from their mistakes. Only time will tell if we have succeeded with our goals.
Keeping junk food to an rare treat in the house is a good policy, but it doesn't guarantee that kids will grow up to be healthy eaters. In my opinion.
Modeling by example is a positive way to teach the value of eating a balanced diet, exercise, treating others with respect, etc., and we're hopeful that our children follow our examples outside the home, but not foolish enough to think they always will choose to or even want to. Children often make the decision to rebel, in an attempt to assert their independence from their parents, our job is provide them the best example we can, discipline them when appropriate, keep the lines of communication open, and allow them to learn (and suffer the consequences, like when the 11 year old drank 6 cans of Sprite with his friends at at sleep over and had a wicked stomach ache.) from their mistakes. Only time will tell if we have succeeded with our goals.
Keeping junk food to an rare treat in the house is a good policy, but it doesn't guarantee that kids will grow up to be healthy eaters. In my opinion.
19
My grandmother has been overweight her entire life. My mother didn't want her kids to be fat, so she taught us what a serving was. We never ate from a container or bag of chips, you put a serving on a plate or in a bowl and sealed the container or bag. I rarely had seconds at dinner. We didn't have much money and once I was done my first helping, I was done. I still feel that till this day most times.
As a teenager some of those rules went out the window because my brothers and I were active and could ride our bikes to stores to get food...but those calories were burned off because we were forced to ride a few miles or walk a few miles to get to a store. Then we'd play outside all day.
As a teenager some of those rules went out the window because my brothers and I were active and could ride our bikes to stores to get food...but those calories were burned off because we were forced to ride a few miles or walk a few miles to get to a store. Then we'd play outside all day.
20
I don't know. My parents don't eat many sweets, especially my mom. They just don't do desserts. Growing up as a kid, I had a terrible sweet tooth, and I would try to sneak sweets whenever I could - at friends' houses, on Halloween, at school. Knowing that I couldn't and wouldn't get sweets at home made me want to gorge myself on them every opportunity I got. Yeah, I was a chubby kid.
Then I grew up, went on an exercising kick, tipped dangerously towards anorexia for a while (complete with amenorrhoea), and finally settled out to an adult diet, complete with sweets/treats in moderation. But I really do think the extreme limits on sweets at home backfired for me. Like others have said, you have to take into account what kids will see modeled by their peers, not just their parents. And seeing other kids with unlimited access to this sugary crack just made me resentful.
Then I grew up, went on an exercising kick, tipped dangerously towards anorexia for a while (complete with amenorrhoea), and finally settled out to an adult diet, complete with sweets/treats in moderation. But I really do think the extreme limits on sweets at home backfired for me. Like others have said, you have to take into account what kids will see modeled by their peers, not just their parents. And seeing other kids with unlimited access to this sugary crack just made me resentful.
21
On that same theme, I can only roll my eyes at the parents, who ride their bikes with kids in a child seat or trailer - and often another one on their own bike beside them - the kids wearing helmets, the parents not. Way to send a signal, mkay.
22
@20 - The point is not that one should set "extreme limits", but rather that one should serve as an example of a lifestyle in which junk food isn't the norm. There are a lot of people out there who honestly can't imagine a life without Doritos and cookies - people who grew up in a world where this was a standard part of the human diet - and that's a big problem right there. In your case for example - you did eventually settle on a more appropriate diet, no? I'd suspect that the model your parents set for you actually made that more likely in the long term.
23
Dan,
Where do you put homemade treats, doesn't that occasional batch of peanut butter cookies, etc. mean that sometimes you have unhealthy food around the house? Maybe, neither Joan or Andrew is correct and it's really a healthy eating continuum where cookies, etc. are a treasured yet sporadic treat?
Where do you put homemade treats, doesn't that occasional batch of peanut butter cookies, etc. mean that sometimes you have unhealthy food around the house? Maybe, neither Joan or Andrew is correct and it's really a healthy eating continuum where cookies, etc. are a treasured yet sporadic treat?
24
@ Simac,
I was one of those people. Just because you serve your kids organic vegan dishes for every meal means you have a healthy relationship with food. Denying any and all contact with 'unhealthy' food (non-organic, non-vegan) and demonizing your kid for wanting to try it. My mother now wishes she didn't constantly lecture (harp) about the evils of meat, white bread, and refined sugar because her children now ignore her and eat whatever shit tastes good and don't give f--k all about nutrition or the environment.
I was one of those people. Just because you serve your kids organic vegan dishes for every meal means you have a healthy relationship with food. Denying any and all contact with 'unhealthy' food (non-organic, non-vegan) and demonizing your kid for wanting to try it. My mother now wishes she didn't constantly lecture (harp) about the evils of meat, white bread, and refined sugar because her children now ignore her and eat whatever shit tastes good and don't give f--k all about nutrition or the environment.
25
@8 - "once kids start eating their peers"? Hee hee.
But anyway --
I was another case where it backfired. Granola & wheat germ were the choices for breakfast at our house, so of course whenever I was away from home (summer camp, sleep-overs, and through college & after) I was all about the Cap'n Crunch and Cocoa Pebbles. Same for after school snacks: carrot sticks no, Hostess Cakes yes. It took me until I was 25 to come to my senses.
But anyway --
I was another case where it backfired. Granola & wheat germ were the choices for breakfast at our house, so of course whenever I was away from home (summer camp, sleep-overs, and through college & after) I was all about the Cap'n Crunch and Cocoa Pebbles. Same for after school snacks: carrot sticks no, Hostess Cakes yes. It took me until I was 25 to come to my senses.
26
The course Dan describes is the rigid nutritional version of the Evangelical's "Abstinence Only" education.
Kids raised that way will be poorly equipped to deal with the real world and primed to rebel against everything they were forcefed.
The bulge they develop won't be a baby but 20lbs of blubber.
Kids raised that way will be poorly equipped to deal with the real world and primed to rebel against everything they were forcefed.
The bulge they develop won't be a baby but 20lbs of blubber.
27
The biggest problem is that most parents don't know what constitutes good nutrition. For example, drinking (or feeding your kids) 2% or whole milk is WORSE than soda -- it has more calories, is still full of sugar, and contains deadly saturated and trans fats. Another example is breakfast cereal -- almost all branded cereal (especially kids' cereal) is candy, as the #1 ingredient is sugar. Don't get your nutrition advice from TV ads.
You don't have to eat (or feed your kids) beets or kale. I recommend reading "What to Eat" by nutrition professor Marion Nestle. Or follow 4 simple rules (for you and your kids):
1) Avoid red meat (beef and pork), eggs, and dairy products.
2) Avoid drinking calories like soda, milk, and juice. 100% juice with pulp is the best choice if you (or your kids) want a treat.
3) Avoid sugars whether added or not. HFCS, cane sugars, and other sugars are nutritionally almost identical. Read the nutrition label -- if it has more than, say, 5g of sugar per serving, don't eat it.
4) Eat 100% whole grains (not "multi-grain," "unbleached flour," etc.). Look for "whole wheat flour" as the #1 ingredient or "100% whole wheat" on the label. Refined flour ("wheat flour") is almost as bad as sugar.
You don't have to eat (or feed your kids) beets or kale. I recommend reading "What to Eat" by nutrition professor Marion Nestle. Or follow 4 simple rules (for you and your kids):
1) Avoid red meat (beef and pork), eggs, and dairy products.
2) Avoid drinking calories like soda, milk, and juice. 100% juice with pulp is the best choice if you (or your kids) want a treat.
3) Avoid sugars whether added or not. HFCS, cane sugars, and other sugars are nutritionally almost identical. Read the nutrition label -- if it has more than, say, 5g of sugar per serving, don't eat it.
4) Eat 100% whole grains (not "multi-grain," "unbleached flour," etc.). Look for "whole wheat flour" as the #1 ingredient or "100% whole wheat" on the label. Refined flour ("wheat flour") is almost as bad as sugar.
28
While I agree that modelling behavior is critical, I think the idea that parents should have the exact same rules as children is a little extreme. Does that mean that a parent can't have a glass of wine with dinner because otherwise little Aiden/Brayden/Jayden/Caiden will want a glass of wine?
Dan - you make a good point, but as usual you take it a little far. You CAN have different rules for children and adults. That said, I agree that the best way to teach good nutrition is to practice good nutrition as a household.
Also, peers have more and more influence over children as they get older, so there's only so much that parent modelling can help. Sometimes you just need good, old-fashioned RULES.
Dan - you make a good point, but as usual you take it a little far. You CAN have different rules for children and adults. That said, I agree that the best way to teach good nutrition is to practice good nutrition as a household.
Also, peers have more and more influence over children as they get older, so there's only so much that parent modelling can help. Sometimes you just need good, old-fashioned RULES.
29
While I agree that modelling behavior is critical, I think the idea that parents should have the exact same rules as children is a little extreme. Does that mean that a parent can't have a glass of wine with dinner because otherwise little Aiden/Brayden/Jayden/Caiden will want a glass of wine?
Dan - you make a good point, but as usual you take it a little far. You CAN have different rules for children and adults. That said, I agree that the best way to teach good nutrition is to practice good nutrition as a household.
Also, peers have more and more influence over children as they get older, so there's only so much that parent modelling can help. Sometimes you just need good, old-fashioned RULES.
Dan - you make a good point, but as usual you take it a little far. You CAN have different rules for children and adults. That said, I agree that the best way to teach good nutrition is to practice good nutrition as a household.
Also, peers have more and more influence over children as they get older, so there's only so much that parent modelling can help. Sometimes you just need good, old-fashioned RULES.
30
Dan's point about modeling what you want your kids to do is solid. Most kids spend more time at home/around their parents than anywhere else. Lay a strong foundation and hope for the best. Try not to be too extreme either direction.
We've seen what happens when an entire generation fails to learn portion control or anything at all about shopping or cooking. We know that obese kids are more likely to become obese adults.
Couldn't we at least try to teach the next generation some of these lessons?
We've seen what happens when an entire generation fails to learn portion control or anything at all about shopping or cooking. We know that obese kids are more likely to become obese adults.
Couldn't we at least try to teach the next generation some of these lessons?
31
Uh it started out cool but ended up a little touchey...
It's okay to have ice cream in the fridge, Dan. It's okay.
It's okay to have ice cream in the fridge, Dan. It's okay.
32
Karma = Dan's kid turning out to be fat.
This is so much more complicated an issue than anyone is making it out to be, and in the end, it's a personal one. Make what choices you will for yourself and your family and mind your own business otherwise. I am sick to death of everyone's judgemental moralistic bullshit on this subject.
This is so much more complicated an issue than anyone is making it out to be, and in the end, it's a personal one. Make what choices you will for yourself and your family and mind your own business otherwise. I am sick to death of everyone's judgemental moralistic bullshit on this subject.
33
I'm jealous of my roommate because she grew up on a super-healthful, no junk food diet. She said frozen peas straight from the freezer where considered a treat in her house. By the time she hit grade school and she was eating her yogurt cheese and olive sandwiches on whole wheat bread, she didn't blink twice at her classmates who ate Wonderbread and Twinkies. The dazzling packaging allured her, but once she tried the stuff, she was lucky to not have major exposure to it. Plus, nobody wanted to trade for her sandwich anyway.
I grew up on Little Debbies, TV dinners, Western Family mac-n-cheese, and Happy Meals. Though I don't touch the stuff anymore, to this day I still crave Swanson Salisbury steaks or the occasional McDonald's cheeseburger. And when I'm feeling bad about myself I still swing by Taco Bell.
Junk food shouldn't even be looked at as a "rare treat". It shouldn't even be in our food palette vocabulary (if that phrasing makes sense). Cookies made with organic ingredients, whole wheat flour and a raw sugar is a rare treat. Processed, de-natured chemicals disguised as food is not. Kids on some subconscious level can realize this and develop a palette for real food and not a palette for the shit I grew up on.
I grew up on Little Debbies, TV dinners, Western Family mac-n-cheese, and Happy Meals. Though I don't touch the stuff anymore, to this day I still crave Swanson Salisbury steaks or the occasional McDonald's cheeseburger. And when I'm feeling bad about myself I still swing by Taco Bell.
Junk food shouldn't even be looked at as a "rare treat". It shouldn't even be in our food palette vocabulary (if that phrasing makes sense). Cookies made with organic ingredients, whole wheat flour and a raw sugar is a rare treat. Processed, de-natured chemicals disguised as food is not. Kids on some subconscious level can realize this and develop a palette for real food and not a palette for the shit I grew up on.
34
I don't think Dan was being as "extreme" as some posters seem to have assumed. Setting a good example for the kids is never a bad idea. My parents used to always say, "all things in moderation," and that included the occasional fatty, sugary dessert.
One thing that helps get kids interested in healthy food is to have a garden (or even just some windowboxes with salad greens). I absolutely loved veggies as a kid, and I know a lot of that was due to helping out and "grazing" in my family's large garden.
One thing that helps get kids interested in healthy food is to have a garden (or even just some windowboxes with salad greens). I absolutely loved veggies as a kid, and I know a lot of that was due to helping out and "grazing" in my family's large garden.
35
@27, there is so much conflicting info about what constitutes good nutrition it's not surprising parents don't know what's best.
For example, I've read your comments quite often about how bad dairy is (which it isn't in moderation, but whatever). Yet you've never mentioned that the reason why it's "bad" is because pasteurization destroys ALL the enzymes needed to digest the lactose and probably other components. You cannot tell me that raw milk and cheese (which granted, is effing expensive and getting harder to find) isn't a wonderful source of protein, calcium, and vitamin D that is easily digested and absorbed.
As for the large quantity of sugar in milk, well, you might own me on that one. I'll look into it.
For example, I've read your comments quite often about how bad dairy is (which it isn't in moderation, but whatever). Yet you've never mentioned that the reason why it's "bad" is because pasteurization destroys ALL the enzymes needed to digest the lactose and probably other components. You cannot tell me that raw milk and cheese (which granted, is effing expensive and getting harder to find) isn't a wonderful source of protein, calcium, and vitamin D that is easily digested and absorbed.
As for the large quantity of sugar in milk, well, you might own me on that one. I'll look into it.
36
The behavior described here is admirable, especially noting that role modeling is crucial and that one should never put one's own desire to watch TV or eat cookies ahead of the need of children for consistency.
Of course, Dan also models hysteria about body image and severe body dysmorphia for his son by stating that their home will be broken if his other dad ever gains weight. Has he been reassured that he will not be returned to his drug addict birth mother is he ever gets fats? Cause he might legitimately wonder.
And, of course, it is also crucial to model compassion for children: does Dan give his little one a high five when teachers and parents report that he is harrassing his classmates?
Can he claim that he role models appropriate behavior in terms of human decency, compassion, and taking responsibility for his own actions?
Of course not.
But it is very nice that he is so good about the cookies.
Of course, Dan also models hysteria about body image and severe body dysmorphia for his son by stating that their home will be broken if his other dad ever gains weight. Has he been reassured that he will not be returned to his drug addict birth mother is he ever gets fats? Cause he might legitimately wonder.
And, of course, it is also crucial to model compassion for children: does Dan give his little one a high five when teachers and parents report that he is harrassing his classmates?
Can he claim that he role models appropriate behavior in terms of human decency, compassion, and taking responsibility for his own actions?
Of course not.
But it is very nice that he is so good about the cookies.
37
Yes, but once these fat, lazy, stupid fu*ks get diabetes, chronic heart disease, hypertension or any one of the other eating related health problems that swallow up 75% of healthcare spending, he expects us to pay for the bill.
THanks Dan, I guess in America you can have your cake and eat it too.
THanks Dan, I guess in America you can have your cake and eat it too.
38
Dan - sorry to tell you, but, there are cookies and cookies. Find the oatmeal-rasin-fruit mix, old cookbook, leave almost all the sugar out - and teach him to bake them. Create strong flavor as in, vanilla, almond and all the other great old flavor extracts. Flavor not sugar.
Learning to cook and the basics of nutrition, facts not fad, are far better than just no, no, no. Agree, tons of variety, but, basics. Modern super markets have tons of variety.
My family are all excellent cooks, and all the kids learned about food. Good, food - and burned calories in a furious pace of activities , chores and projects.
Compulsions in either extreme are wacky and the kid will get that. He will put you in the food wacko category soon - and his first girlfriend will be plump and sensual - just wait for that. Skinny girls don't put out as much - wisdom learned.
All your raving about fat is gay male stand and model stuff, little related to food. You have tons of hangs about body and looks. Shame. He will need to figure out his dad's weird stuff.
I am sure you kid will be happy, two dads with MONEY, doing things and going places. But, repression is no substitute for conversations about WHY, and teaching him to think. Do as I tell you should be rarely invoked.
By the way there are tons of EXCELLENT TV, I am sure you all can afford cable. History channel, discover, ch. 9, etc. Set some limits on the crap, teach him to think, to make choices, his choices.
Little or no sugar is a good place to start, no soda is a bit harsh, but choices in good juice and no sugar bubble water are also OK.
Good luck, on to cook a great omlette from scratch, loaded with veggies, using olive oil and nice range brown eggs. No cheese, no bacon, no salt- but pepper and splash of hot sauce, no Crisco.
Teach him that too.
More...
Learning to cook and the basics of nutrition, facts not fad, are far better than just no, no, no. Agree, tons of variety, but, basics. Modern super markets have tons of variety.
My family are all excellent cooks, and all the kids learned about food. Good, food - and burned calories in a furious pace of activities , chores and projects.
Compulsions in either extreme are wacky and the kid will get that. He will put you in the food wacko category soon - and his first girlfriend will be plump and sensual - just wait for that. Skinny girls don't put out as much - wisdom learned.
All your raving about fat is gay male stand and model stuff, little related to food. You have tons of hangs about body and looks. Shame. He will need to figure out his dad's weird stuff.
I am sure you kid will be happy, two dads with MONEY, doing things and going places. But, repression is no substitute for conversations about WHY, and teaching him to think. Do as I tell you should be rarely invoked.
By the way there are tons of EXCELLENT TV, I am sure you all can afford cable. History channel, discover, ch. 9, etc. Set some limits on the crap, teach him to think, to make choices, his choices.
Little or no sugar is a good place to start, no soda is a bit harsh, but choices in good juice and no sugar bubble water are also OK.
Good luck, on to cook a great omlette from scratch, loaded with veggies, using olive oil and nice range brown eggs. No cheese, no bacon, no salt- but pepper and splash of hot sauce, no Crisco.
Teach him that too.
39
"Your kids will choose a homosexual lifestyle if they see you living a homosexual lifestyle. They'll reject women and seek buttsex with men if they see that it is what you do."
Sorry dude, plenty of gays raising straight children who do not turn out that way. Of course, your selective use of anecdotal evidence would consider that "proof" of the non-biological nature of homosexuality while at the same time claiming that gays corrupt children.
Nobody outside of your ever-dwindling circle of bigots takes you seriously, so I can't get too angry with the pathetic attempt to troll. Go back to Glenn Beck, he misses you.
Sorry dude, plenty of gays raising straight children who do not turn out that way. Of course, your selective use of anecdotal evidence would consider that "proof" of the non-biological nature of homosexuality while at the same time claiming that gays corrupt children.
Nobody outside of your ever-dwindling circle of bigots takes you seriously, so I can't get too angry with the pathetic attempt to troll. Go back to Glenn Beck, he misses you.
40
"no soda is a bit harsh"
It's not really harsh, kids should get to appreciate plain water or real non-syrup-ified/sugared juice. There probably weren't that many better choices when I was a kid in the 80s, but sodas and faux-juices weren't pushed through every angle and especially at school.
The kids should definitely learn how to cook and achieve good habits before the others are installed by their friends' lazy (or busy, some people work very hard in this economy and can't handle the extra time/cost for good slow food) parents, of course.
It's not really harsh, kids should get to appreciate plain water or real non-syrup-ified/sugared juice. There probably weren't that many better choices when I was a kid in the 80s, but sodas and faux-juices weren't pushed through every angle and especially at school.
The kids should definitely learn how to cook and achieve good habits before the others are installed by their friends' lazy (or busy, some people work very hard in this economy and can't handle the extra time/cost for good slow food) parents, of course.
41
As much as we talk diet, exercise is MORE important. Get him into all any any sports programs, dance, running, working hard in the garden, labor for elderly neighbors, activity, activity. Let the kid use up tons of calories and experience stuff.
Sitting is the bane of American health, maybe more than food choices - we have become sitters and not doers of much of anything. less walking, less running and physical labor.
Bikes are GREAT, and going for miles on weekends. Just a basic stairmaster somewhere that is his. Consider rugby and soccer.
Good luck. Daddy Dan And Daddy Partner.
Sitting is the bane of American health, maybe more than food choices - we have become sitters and not doers of much of anything. less walking, less running and physical labor.
Bikes are GREAT, and going for miles on weekends. Just a basic stairmaster somewhere that is his. Consider rugby and soccer.
Good luck. Daddy Dan And Daddy Partner.
42
#40 - you make a good point. Some work will increae just water, and then juices and juicing. What happened to blending stuff from scratch?
My mom bought a new fridge with the ice in the door, and then started buying limes and lemons. I think all we drank were nicely iced water drinks with twist of lime and lemon.
Somehow I remember as a kid the iced water was far better than tap.
I have always liked fizz more that soda taste, and club soda is always in my fridge - just cause I like fizz ... no sugar at all.
My mom bought a new fridge with the ice in the door, and then started buying limes and lemons. I think all we drank were nicely iced water drinks with twist of lime and lemon.
Somehow I remember as a kid the iced water was far better than tap.
I have always liked fizz more that soda taste, and club soda is always in my fridge - just cause I like fizz ... no sugar at all.
44
Hey Stace,
Are you having a better day? I hope so.
Are you still trolling for Savage? That's how it reads, you've taken some isolated quote from it's context and making presumptions.
How do you know what his everyday role modeling is to his son, unless you live there? How do you know that his husband lives under some kind of threat that he'll meet a Canadian divorce lawyer it he gains a few pounds, again unless your living with them? Just because keeping in good physical shape is one of the prices of admissions that they share as a couple, doesn't mean that there is some kind of on going threat. Do you really think that if his husband was struck with something beyond his personal control that resulted in his gaining weight, that Savage would dump him? I doubt it, especially since he said that if the boyfriend suddenly developed some kind of disease that required him to get breast implants and wear a bra (he was talking to a man who was struggling with his wife's radical mastectomy) that he'd stay by his side, hold his hand, and help him pick out bras. Simply put, he loves him and not just because he has a nice outside package. I doubt their son lives in fear that a few pounds on the scale will destroy his family, or that either of his father's will reject him.
All children can be bullies, it's a given that they will all try it once at least. Savage has talked about disciplining his son on the issue.
Anyway, have a good day and I hope you have successful fishing trip.
Are you having a better day? I hope so.
Are you still trolling for Savage? That's how it reads, you've taken some isolated quote from it's context and making presumptions.
How do you know what his everyday role modeling is to his son, unless you live there? How do you know that his husband lives under some kind of threat that he'll meet a Canadian divorce lawyer it he gains a few pounds, again unless your living with them? Just because keeping in good physical shape is one of the prices of admissions that they share as a couple, doesn't mean that there is some kind of on going threat. Do you really think that if his husband was struck with something beyond his personal control that resulted in his gaining weight, that Savage would dump him? I doubt it, especially since he said that if the boyfriend suddenly developed some kind of disease that required him to get breast implants and wear a bra (he was talking to a man who was struggling with his wife's radical mastectomy) that he'd stay by his side, hold his hand, and help him pick out bras. Simply put, he loves him and not just because he has a nice outside package. I doubt their son lives in fear that a few pounds on the scale will destroy his family, or that either of his father's will reject him.
All children can be bullies, it's a given that they will all try it once at least. Savage has talked about disciplining his son on the issue.
Anyway, have a good day and I hope you have successful fishing trip.
46
I grew up in a soda-free household, as did many of my friends. Now none of us *like* soda. It's sickly sweet and the bubbles mixed with the sugar actually sting. Soda is very much an acquired taste and if you keep your kids off it, there's a good chance they won't get into the habit of drinking it. I can remember the first time I had a sip of coke (I was about 7) I spat it out because it tasted so disgusting to me.
I can also back up what people have been saying about involving kids in the food buying/making process. Going to do the fruit and veg shopping with my mum, or the groceries with dad was a fun treat even in my late teens, because I was allowed to choose a few things I wanted to eat that week, and it was a pleasant way to bond with my parents. I also had weekly cooking nights. Now I'm an awful lot lazier about food, but damned if I don't chase the occasional hung-over serve of easy mac with a few celery sticks.
I can also back up what people have been saying about involving kids in the food buying/making process. Going to do the fruit and veg shopping with my mum, or the groceries with dad was a fun treat even in my late teens, because I was allowed to choose a few things I wanted to eat that week, and it was a pleasant way to bond with my parents. I also had weekly cooking nights. Now I'm an awful lot lazier about food, but damned if I don't chase the occasional hung-over serve of easy mac with a few celery sticks.
47
@39
Dan expect us to believe that parent behavior and example will determine what eating choices children will make but will have no effect on their sexual lifestyle choices?
That's inconsistent.
But convenient.
If sexual behavior is innately hardwired and will manifest itself regardless of environment and the example of parents why not eating behavior?
Why doesn't that caveman instinct drive kids to seek out the foods their body needs?
Does Dan believe children raised by alcoholics be more likely to misuse alcohol?
Will boys raised in a home where the father abuses his partner be more likely to repeat the behavior?
Will kids raised in a home by inactive couch-potato TV watchers grow up doing the same?
In fact EVERY behavior of parents sets an example for and influences the way children raised in the home will develop- but Dan would have you believe that parent example in sexual behavior WILL HAVE ZERO EFFECT ON CHILDREN IN THE HOME?
Even the credulous will choke on that.
Dan expect us to believe that parent behavior and example will determine what eating choices children will make but will have no effect on their sexual lifestyle choices?
That's inconsistent.
But convenient.
If sexual behavior is innately hardwired and will manifest itself regardless of environment and the example of parents why not eating behavior?
Why doesn't that caveman instinct drive kids to seek out the foods their body needs?
Does Dan believe children raised by alcoholics be more likely to misuse alcohol?
Will boys raised in a home where the father abuses his partner be more likely to repeat the behavior?
Will kids raised in a home by inactive couch-potato TV watchers grow up doing the same?
In fact EVERY behavior of parents sets an example for and influences the way children raised in the home will develop- but Dan would have you believe that parent example in sexual behavior WILL HAVE ZERO EFFECT ON CHILDREN IN THE HOME?
Even the credulous will choke on that.
48
39
If plenty of gays raise children who turn out straight would YOU consider that "proof" of the non-biological nature of homosexuality?
If plenty of gays raise children who turn out straight would YOU consider that "proof" of the non-biological nature of homosexuality?
49
Kim - your out of the Portland void lectures are getting boring. ... you are just too kind, too defensive, and too patronizing.
Do you really think you are saving us Seattle queens from something?
I have yet to get most of your posts. Every body I know is as good as you seem to want us to know you are - so what is the deal?
Please ad some of you own REAL contend, and quit the school child lectures. Of course, good gay boys are too, too, too polite to tell you that, that is part of their internalized oppression. Be polite, be good, then, then, they will like you.
Dan has spent a decade throwing rocks in all directions, and once in a while, someone throws back. I think he can defend himself, and I think he knows the game since it is part of the Stranger marketing plan, and, it seem to work well.
Signed,
Queer Flesh and Blood and Guts
Do you really think you are saving us Seattle queens from something?
I have yet to get most of your posts. Every body I know is as good as you seem to want us to know you are - so what is the deal?
Please ad some of you own REAL contend, and quit the school child lectures. Of course, good gay boys are too, too, too polite to tell you that, that is part of their internalized oppression. Be polite, be good, then, then, they will like you.
Dan has spent a decade throwing rocks in all directions, and once in a while, someone throws back. I think he can defend himself, and I think he knows the game since it is part of the Stranger marketing plan, and, it seem to work well.
Signed,
Queer Flesh and Blood and Guts
50
I like how the anonymous coward @ 45 gives himself a "FTW" to his comment @ 37. I could high-five myself if I had a million sockpuppets.
(Predicted responses: that there's more than one anonymous poster - which you could prove if y'all registered - and that I don't know what a sockpuppet is, even though I do and I'm using the term correctly here.)
(Predicted responses: that there's more than one anonymous poster - which you could prove if y'all registered - and that I don't know what a sockpuppet is, even though I do and I'm using the term correctly here.)
52
50
yo Matt-
the trolls could learn a thing or two from you...
I like how you gives yourself a high-five for your clever post WITHIN THE SAME POST!
Darn- that's efficient.
yo Matt-
the trolls could learn a thing or two from you...
I like how you gives yourself a high-five for your clever post WITHIN THE SAME POST!
Darn- that's efficient.
54
And what do you do when you do all that stuff, live the perfect life, and are still fat? Have your stomach mutilated because you're just not pretty enough?
It amazes me that anyone who has been the target of bigotry based on lies, stereotypes, and fear would promote treating other people the same way.
And for those keeping track... my husband still has not found a job, although we managed to borrow $30 whole dollars for food for the two of us this week. Average caloric intake this week with this new infusion of food... 1,000 to 1,200 per day. Weight lost since I've been living on 500 to 1500 calories per day depending on money and walking everywhere to avoid using the gas we can't afford to replace?
-29lbs, thats negative 29lbs, as in I've actually gained weight while eating less and walking more.
Yep. It's all about diet and exercise. CALORIES IN CALORIES OUT right? It's bullshit, and anyone with a brain in their heads would admit it. Hatred isn't valid diet advice any more than it's a valid family value and you would think by now as someone who has experienced it Dan would stop propagating it. He is no better than those Westboro Baptist assholes, he just has a different target for his hate.
It amazes me that anyone who has been the target of bigotry based on lies, stereotypes, and fear would promote treating other people the same way.
And for those keeping track... my husband still has not found a job, although we managed to borrow $30 whole dollars for food for the two of us this week. Average caloric intake this week with this new infusion of food... 1,000 to 1,200 per day. Weight lost since I've been living on 500 to 1500 calories per day depending on money and walking everywhere to avoid using the gas we can't afford to replace?
-29lbs, thats negative 29lbs, as in I've actually gained weight while eating less and walking more.
Yep. It's all about diet and exercise. CALORIES IN CALORIES OUT right? It's bullshit, and anyone with a brain in their heads would admit it. Hatred isn't valid diet advice any more than it's a valid family value and you would think by now as someone who has experienced it Dan would stop propagating it. He is no better than those Westboro Baptist assholes, he just has a different target for his hate.
55
"Dan expect us to believe that parent behavior and example will determine what eating choices children will make but will have no effect on their sexual lifestyle choices?
That's inconsistent."
Yes, you are correct. It is inconsistent to compare picky eating and sexual preference. I'm glad we're all on the same page here.
"Why doesn't that caveman instinct drive kids to seek out the foods their body needs?"
Homosexual behavior existed in our species from the beginning. Animals have also been observed to partner up with the presence of existing heterosexual partners.
Food science and mass availability of sustenance is a new innovation, and using the worst examples of chemistry-based food production as an argument against homosexuality is insincere.
Your inability to stop engorging yourself on all the fatty products in sight is not comparable to an insatiable love for cock.
That's inconsistent."
Yes, you are correct. It is inconsistent to compare picky eating and sexual preference. I'm glad we're all on the same page here.
"Why doesn't that caveman instinct drive kids to seek out the foods their body needs?"
Homosexual behavior existed in our species from the beginning. Animals have also been observed to partner up with the presence of existing heterosexual partners.
Food science and mass availability of sustenance is a new innovation, and using the worst examples of chemistry-based food production as an argument against homosexuality is insincere.
Your inability to stop engorging yourself on all the fatty products in sight is not comparable to an insatiable love for cock.
56
OMG thank you thank you thank you. My kids are teens and while they might eat crap elsewhere, at home they get (mostly) healthy food because that is what I buy and what ALL of us eat, parents included. If I have to listen to another parent whine about how their kid won't eat anything but chicken nuggets and apple juice I am gonna blow a fucking gasket. Stop buying that crap and your kid won't eat it because it won't be in the house.
And texture & sensitivity issues are not an excuse because healthy foods come in a LOT of different textures and there are more than enough to be able to avoid those that kids are sensitive too.
And texture & sensitivity issues are not an excuse because healthy foods come in a LOT of different textures and there are more than enough to be able to avoid those that kids are sensitive too.
57
I don't know. Yes, parental influence plays a role but nowadays there are so many other factors. Just the whole issue of amount eaten is different now than in the past.
For lunch during school, I would often go home and have a peanut butter sandwich, a handful of pretzels, and about 8oz of Pepsi. Nowadays everything is screwy. I think I've consumed a handful of pretzels just in typing out this paragraph. And who the hell drinks just 8oz of soda?
For lunch during school, I would often go home and have a peanut butter sandwich, a handful of pretzels, and about 8oz of Pepsi. Nowadays everything is screwy. I think I've consumed a handful of pretzels just in typing out this paragraph. And who the hell drinks just 8oz of soda?
58
@ 52, it's bad enough to have to throw back the same cutting remark that was directed at you, which is basically an admission of defeat since you can't think of something original; but it's even more pathetic when it makes no sense at all, since there's no way my post can be construed as "high fiving myself."
59
Kim:
If Savage does not treat his own family that way, why does he tell other people to treat their families that way? Is there a reason why his other the top hyperbole is inherently less destructive than Glenn Beck's? Because he acts as though he has the moral authority to be a role model for other and, whatever his private behavior, he is consistently irresponsible publicly. Not a decent role model for his son or for other people's. :(
I'm having a much better day, thanks. Hope you are well.
If Savage does not treat his own family that way, why does he tell other people to treat their families that way? Is there a reason why his other the top hyperbole is inherently less destructive than Glenn Beck's? Because he acts as though he has the moral authority to be a role model for other and, whatever his private behavior, he is consistently irresponsible publicly. Not a decent role model for his son or for other people's. :(
I'm having a much better day, thanks. Hope you are well.
60
Didn't grow up with soft drinks or junk food in the house; didn't eat them; still don't.
It's that simple.
And no, it's not the same as drinking wine in front of your kids, because most kids don't like wine. I was allowed to drink wine when I was a kid, but I didn't, because I hated the taste. It really is a thing you kind of have to grow into.
It's that simple.
And no, it's not the same as drinking wine in front of your kids, because most kids don't like wine. I was allowed to drink wine when I was a kid, but I didn't, because I hated the taste. It really is a thing you kind of have to grow into.
61
My experience growing up was that being a role model for good eating habits doesn't mean shit unless you combine it with the willpower to keep junk food out of your house. When my parents hit their 40's, they both decided that it was time to make some changes to the way they ate, and they both started making good, healthy food choices. The problem was that they kept buying all the processed crap and soda, and my sister kept eating it despite their good example. Now my parents have healthy diets and good physical health, while my sister eats fast food and soda all the time and gets winded after climbing a flight of stairs. There is nothing wrong with keeping junk food out of your house.
62
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say there are two trolls on this thread. One is a fatavist and the other is a paul-tard.
63
55
ok.
sure.
if you say so-
Eating- new innovation.
ButtSex- old as the species.
this is Slog, after all...
ok.
sure.
if you say so-
Eating- new innovation.
ButtSex- old as the species.
this is Slog, after all...
64
Stace,
For the life of me I can't remember any advice advocating for mistreatment of a family member. I do remember a pod cast episode where a female caller called in about her Brazilian born boyfriend, and it was a fairly young relationship. The boyfriend had told her that part of the price for admission was that she keep herself in good physical shape. Savage didn't think the boyfriend was out of line, since he believed that part of being GGG is taking care of yourself physically for your partner. He also made the comment, about having the agreement in his own relationship.
I'm with you on the "Without Comment" post, I don't understand the purpose behind that one or ones like it. The same goes for posts about smoking.
I'm glad to hear your having a better day. Hope your well, too.
Have a good late afternoon.
For the life of me I can't remember any advice advocating for mistreatment of a family member. I do remember a pod cast episode where a female caller called in about her Brazilian born boyfriend, and it was a fairly young relationship. The boyfriend had told her that part of the price for admission was that she keep herself in good physical shape. Savage didn't think the boyfriend was out of line, since he believed that part of being GGG is taking care of yourself physically for your partner. He also made the comment, about having the agreement in his own relationship.
I'm with you on the "Without Comment" post, I don't understand the purpose behind that one or ones like it. The same goes for posts about smoking.
I'm glad to hear your having a better day. Hope your well, too.
Have a good late afternoon.
65
Take Your Kids to a raw food restaurant. They will see how fun and creative, and delicious healthy eating can be. It will inspire you to prepare great tasting and nutritious dishes at home as well.
To Your Health!
James Reno (editor)
http://www.Raw-Food-Repair.com
To Your Health!
James Reno (editor)
http://www.Raw-Food-Repair.com
66
ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE TIME! I was born to skinny vegetarians who do a lot of exercise. My sister is very healthy. I'm morbidly obese. Why? Because life sucks.
I agree that a lot of parents are hypocrites though.
I agree that a lot of parents are hypocrites though.
67
"ok.
sure.
if you say so-
Eating- new innovation.
ButtSex- old as the species.
this is Slog, after all... "
Are you seriously this dense? Are you capable of putting forth a reply to something actually stated here, or is the only way you can "win" any argument through knocking down straw?
sure.
if you say so-
Eating- new innovation.
ButtSex- old as the species.
this is Slog, after all... "
Are you seriously this dense? Are you capable of putting forth a reply to something actually stated here, or is the only way you can "win" any argument through knocking down straw?
68
I never had junk food around my parents' house, and now I eat it sometimes. I plan on letting my kids have (gasp!) sugar, in candy, cookie, and juice form, if they want it. According to some commenters here, that makes me some spawn of Satan.
When I got older, I started to dislike a lot of the more sugary foods I used to crave and love as a child. This didn't come from my parenting, but from my own preferences changing as I got older. My kids will be raised knowing that they can count on me to understand that there's a difference between their needs and mine, and that extremes of any kind(like the batty people who claim all meat is bad, only organics are good, etc.) are something people do to try to out-do everyone else in how good of a person they are. Vegetarianism, organic eating, fat-free eating, Atkins - they were all just attempts to show that extremes(meat, carbs, fats, pesticides) are bad. Unfortunately they ended up being taken to extremes as well, with the horrible results displayed above.
When I got older, I started to dislike a lot of the more sugary foods I used to crave and love as a child. This didn't come from my parenting, but from my own preferences changing as I got older. My kids will be raised knowing that they can count on me to understand that there's a difference between their needs and mine, and that extremes of any kind(like the batty people who claim all meat is bad, only organics are good, etc.) are something people do to try to out-do everyone else in how good of a person they are. Vegetarianism, organic eating, fat-free eating, Atkins - they were all just attempts to show that extremes(meat, carbs, fats, pesticides) are bad. Unfortunately they ended up being taken to extremes as well, with the horrible results displayed above.
69
"If we sat there and drank Coke during dinner, he'd feel deprived and resentful for being made to drink water or milk. (Similarly, no TV on school nights means no TV for him and no TV for us.)"
My parents drank coffee, beer, wine, and highballs in front of us. Those drinks were for adults; there were some things adults could have that kids could not, and that was the way life worked.
We could have tea in the morning, however -- weak tea with milk and sugar.
Soda was a treat not served with meals. We each got a six to eight ounce serving.
My parents drank coffee, beer, wine, and highballs in front of us. Those drinks were for adults; there were some things adults could have that kids could not, and that was the way life worked.
We could have tea in the morning, however -- weak tea with milk and sugar.
Soda was a treat not served with meals. We each got a six to eight ounce serving.
70
Another thing that isn't being considered, and I don't know if it applies equally to both genders... kids don't hear "only really fat people are bad people, and only if they don't have a medical condition".
Kids hear "fat people are bad". Speaking from experience, both mine and other girls my age had growing up at the start of the 'omg obesity epidemic!!!' era... we didn't just hear "really fat people who never exercise and only eat mcdonalds are bad because they're unhealthy"
We heard "anyone who is fat is a bad person". This eventually turned into "fat = weighing more = bad"... and eventually this turned into "oh no, I gained 5lbs this week, what am I going to do my parents are going to stop loving me because who can love a bad person".
Maybe that doesn't happen to boys, or not as much. But it was extremely common among the girls in my school -- it didn't matter what the number on the scale was, what mattered was if it was higher or lower than the day before. Because higher meant you were getting fat, and fat people are horrible bad people who will never find love and who will be alone all their lives and die young.
In this case, we're not talking about Dan's issues with fat adults... yeah, it fucking sucks that he thinks it's ok to treat other people this way, and it's fucking hypocritical as all get out that he denounces people for saying hurtful things about HIM but then turns around and says hurtful things about other people... but thats adults.
Kids do not THINK like adults. So yeah, the more Dan spouts off about this shit in hearing of his son, the more likely his son will be to form the idea that "if I gain even one pound, I'll be a fattie and my father won't love me anymore"
Maybe boys don't think the way girls do at those ages. I sincerely hope, for the child's sake, that thats true. Because nothing on earth will fuck you up more than that poisonous little "if I'm not exactly 100% perfect in every way always, my father will stop loving me" thought process.
More...
Kids hear "fat people are bad". Speaking from experience, both mine and other girls my age had growing up at the start of the 'omg obesity epidemic!!!' era... we didn't just hear "really fat people who never exercise and only eat mcdonalds are bad because they're unhealthy"
We heard "anyone who is fat is a bad person". This eventually turned into "fat = weighing more = bad"... and eventually this turned into "oh no, I gained 5lbs this week, what am I going to do my parents are going to stop loving me because who can love a bad person".
Maybe that doesn't happen to boys, or not as much. But it was extremely common among the girls in my school -- it didn't matter what the number on the scale was, what mattered was if it was higher or lower than the day before. Because higher meant you were getting fat, and fat people are horrible bad people who will never find love and who will be alone all their lives and die young.
In this case, we're not talking about Dan's issues with fat adults... yeah, it fucking sucks that he thinks it's ok to treat other people this way, and it's fucking hypocritical as all get out that he denounces people for saying hurtful things about HIM but then turns around and says hurtful things about other people... but thats adults.
Kids do not THINK like adults. So yeah, the more Dan spouts off about this shit in hearing of his son, the more likely his son will be to form the idea that "if I gain even one pound, I'll be a fattie and my father won't love me anymore"
Maybe boys don't think the way girls do at those ages. I sincerely hope, for the child's sake, that thats true. Because nothing on earth will fuck you up more than that poisonous little "if I'm not exactly 100% perfect in every way always, my father will stop loving me" thought process.
71
Batty ideas is correct -
WONDER why apple juice is bad. Get the real thing - much is a Washington state primo product - cheap, sold in gallons. Two or three glass a day. Great beverage.
Chicken nuggets are just browned lean chicken, with coating. Cook/thaw in the oven on paper towel, max out at four or five, quick, easy, chaep. Good food. Use lemon juice or line, not dips.
Does COST have a lot to do with this??? The elites like to PAY a lot, and that makes it better?
Give everybody in the family a multi vitamin once a day - or a halfeach day. Can make up for tons of problems, like low D and B in this area Centrums are very good.. Add a C cap - always nice. Looked for colored berries and fruits, tons of good.
Little beef - only lean, use lamb, fish and chicken/turkey. Cut back portions size, potatoes rule, just quit loading all the junk on them. Simple nuke, boil or real bake at low temp. Eat the skins, of course.
Make tons of good veggie soups - add some meat, bones great, - soups, beans, beans (bay leaf and garlic and tomato anything). Use any whole grain products - rather than reg. flour.
Water Water Water - and ACTIVITY.
FOR KIDS, MOMS AND DADS AND THE DOG
WONDER why apple juice is bad. Get the real thing - much is a Washington state primo product - cheap, sold in gallons. Two or three glass a day. Great beverage.
Chicken nuggets are just browned lean chicken, with coating. Cook/thaw in the oven on paper towel, max out at four or five, quick, easy, chaep. Good food. Use lemon juice or line, not dips.
Does COST have a lot to do with this??? The elites like to PAY a lot, and that makes it better?
Give everybody in the family a multi vitamin once a day - or a halfeach day. Can make up for tons of problems, like low D and B in this area Centrums are very good.. Add a C cap - always nice. Looked for colored berries and fruits, tons of good.
Little beef - only lean, use lamb, fish and chicken/turkey. Cut back portions size, potatoes rule, just quit loading all the junk on them. Simple nuke, boil or real bake at low temp. Eat the skins, of course.
Make tons of good veggie soups - add some meat, bones great, - soups, beans, beans (bay leaf and garlic and tomato anything). Use any whole grain products - rather than reg. flour.
Water Water Water - and ACTIVITY.
FOR KIDS, MOMS AND DADS AND THE DOG
74
Ha, my dad and I were just having this same conversation on our hike today. Sounding like a bunch of crotchety old people in the process, I'm sure.
I was saying that I don't understand why people don't just refrain from buying chips, cookies, etc. for their kids. Especially when they are little -- why would anyone feed a three year old chips and Easy Mac, for crying out loud? When they're little, they don't even know that shit exists. When they're a bit older, teach them about food/nutrition, and (especially) how treats are okay in moderation. But, in my mind, why are you even giving a kid any processed sugar at all before they are 3 or 4?
My dad also went on his patented "kids these days don't get enough exercise, I walked two miles to school every day" rant. Good times...
I was saying that I don't understand why people don't just refrain from buying chips, cookies, etc. for their kids. Especially when they are little -- why would anyone feed a three year old chips and Easy Mac, for crying out loud? When they're little, they don't even know that shit exists. When they're a bit older, teach them about food/nutrition, and (especially) how treats are okay in moderation. But, in my mind, why are you even giving a kid any processed sugar at all before they are 3 or 4?
My dad also went on his patented "kids these days don't get enough exercise, I walked two miles to school every day" rant. Good times...
75
Please Dan, start a parenting column! Your advice is so awesome and helpful. You could really help America's parents with your deep and rich knowledge of parenting! Think of the HBO potential. Please start "Savage Parenting" !
79
@54: So the second law of thermodynamics doesn't apply to you? You're able to store energy while expending more energy than you consume? I call bullshit.
80
... the beast in the sanctions/war we have pushed on Iraq in the last 15 years are the starving children ...
oh, lets talk chips and soda and lots of veggies ....
oh, lets talk chips and soda and lots of veggies ....
82
Here's a shocker: Kim in Portland agrees with Dan, and admires Dan's parenting skills, and thinks everyone who disagrees with Dan is a poopy head...
Have a great evening, Kim.
Have a great evening, Kim.
83
Since I love the NYT more than other people, @13, the "membership" is fucking free. Give them an email address or something.
ALSO: there so many trolls wasting their time on these posts. If finding them on general slog, rather than just Dan's, could they, if you are one of said trolls, I don't know, be visually skipped over until you find an author you don't automatically rebut?
Oh, and @6, unless you're the same person as 4, it's much easier to attack someone with a registered, consistent name, huh? Unlike "Monkey See, Monkey Do," or your fucking ridiculous multisyllabic rendering of breathing.
Matt from Denver, we are friends. I have decided this because we live in the same fair city and are aligned against 4, 6, 10, 13, 32, 37, etc.
Finally, no, #45, 37's comment is definitely not "for the win." It's false.
This took too much time.
ALSO: there so many trolls wasting their time on these posts. If finding them on general slog, rather than just Dan's, could they, if you are one of said trolls, I don't know, be visually skipped over until you find an author you don't automatically rebut?
Oh, and @6, unless you're the same person as 4, it's much easier to attack someone with a registered, consistent name, huh? Unlike "Monkey See, Monkey Do," or your fucking ridiculous multisyllabic rendering of breathing.
Matt from Denver, we are friends. I have decided this because we live in the same fair city and are aligned against 4, 6, 10, 13, 32, 37, etc.
Finally, no, #45, 37's comment is definitely not "for the win." It's false.
This took too much time.
84
@82: Kim laid into Dan pretty hard (relative to how hard Kim lays into anyone) on the "fat old people have smaller brains than other old people" thread. While I may not agree with everything Kim believes in, I recognize that she has strong and carefully considered convictions, and that she stands up for them. Anyone who thinks she's in mindless agreement with anyone else (or, at least, with anyone else who's been alive in the past 1600+ years) has not been paying attention.
85
@35
Raw dairy does NOT contain the enzymes needed to digest lactose (milk sugar). Raw foodies with their whole enzyme obsession are lacking some really basic understanding of the physiology of human nutrition.
To say that milk has more sugar than soda is also misguided, so I'm not defending the person you responded to. I don't think milk is health food (there are better ways to get protein and vitD, and WAY better ways to get calcium), but I don't think it's worse than soda.
Dan: agreed.
Raw dairy does NOT contain the enzymes needed to digest lactose (milk sugar). Raw foodies with their whole enzyme obsession are lacking some really basic understanding of the physiology of human nutrition.
To say that milk has more sugar than soda is also misguided, so I'm not defending the person you responded to. I don't think milk is health food (there are better ways to get protein and vitD, and WAY better ways to get calcium), but I don't think it's worse than soda.
Dan: agreed.
86
I will jump on the wagon that, while practicing what you preach is respectable, admirable and totally responsible... doing so doesn't assuredly deter bad eating. If a kid ultimately wants to eat whatever crap he/she wants, the kid will do so once he/she can. I know I did... though to be fair we didn't get enough to eat as kids so I didn't eat well until I got a job and could buy my own food. However, it does go a long way to instilling positive habits, and it succeeds at getting your kid to eat well more often than eating crap yourself does.
(Funny that, you're probably thinking, given my mother turned out overweight, but the metabolism issue from irregular eating habits was one side of that, with the poor selection of food they kept being the other.)
(Funny that, you're probably thinking, given my mother turned out overweight, but the metabolism issue from irregular eating habits was one side of that, with the poor selection of food they kept being the other.)
87
Thanks, Kim.
I guess I'd say in every post where Dan models a dismissive or cruel attitude, he is telling people to be unkind to their families. Notice the extent to which he sets himself up as a role model here: "it's not that hard, it requires some sacrifice, but I do it." And the type of role modeling offered here is great. Rolemodeling nonmonogomous barebacking, which Dan also does, is continuing to loosen the taboo on anal sex without condoms. And that is killing other people's kids.
I guess I'd say in every post where Dan models a dismissive or cruel attitude, he is telling people to be unkind to their families. Notice the extent to which he sets himself up as a role model here: "it's not that hard, it requires some sacrifice, but I do it." And the type of role modeling offered here is great. Rolemodeling nonmonogomous barebacking, which Dan also does, is continuing to loosen the taboo on anal sex without condoms. And that is killing other people's kids.
88
"I will jump on the wagon that, while practicing what you preach is respectable, admirable and totally responsible... doing so doesn't assuredly deter bad eating. If a kid ultimately wants to eat whatever crap he/she wants, the kid will do so once he/she can. I know I did..."
It doesn't guarantee a thing, but why not try to teach people not only the right habits, but what good food amounts to? Nothing can remove my love for shitty krystal/white castle sort of terrible fast food, but I love healthy, well-cooked meals as well. The nice thing about living in the heart of Seattle is that due to the lack of fast food, I don't have to worry about my temptations and generally eat better, even if I do takeout more than I should.
It doesn't guarantee a thing, but why not try to teach people not only the right habits, but what good food amounts to? Nothing can remove my love for shitty krystal/white castle sort of terrible fast food, but I love healthy, well-cooked meals as well. The nice thing about living in the heart of Seattle is that due to the lack of fast food, I don't have to worry about my temptations and generally eat better, even if I do takeout more than I should.
89
"Rolemodeling nonmonogomous barebacking, which Dan also does, is continuing to loosen the taboo on anal sex without condoms. And that is killing other people's kids."
Seriously though, I don't agree with Dan on everything by a longshot, but he does advocate polygamy and doesn't dissuade barebacking, but when does he advocate anonymous unprotected sex? Are you reaching here to prove your "point" or do you have specific examples?
Seriously though, I don't agree with Dan on everything by a longshot, but he does advocate polygamy and doesn't dissuade barebacking, but when does he advocate anonymous unprotected sex? Are you reaching here to prove your "point" or do you have specific examples?
90
Dan is very clear in discouraging anonymous unprotected sex. By establishing himself as role model and announcing that he is nonmonogamous and does not use condoms personally, he has also been crucial in getting gay young men to believe that dropping condom use three months into a relationship is responsible. Which makes them get HIV when their naivete gets them cheated on or they are not savvy enough to recognize a heroin user.
91
I don't think Dana has ever encouraged anonymous unprotected sex, and hope that I did not write anything that implied otherwise. What I meant is that by establishing himself as a role model (as he does in this post and elsewhere) then announcing that he is not monogamous and does not use condoms, Dan has made gay men more likely to stop using condoms early in a relationship. He has never said that kids should stop using condoms three months into their relationship-- has said that they shouldn't-- but he also knows that actions speak louder than words.
92
@32 - nice post. but I doubt Dan's child will turn out to be fat. Dan has clearly stated his hatred for the overweight in his commentaries. can you imagine what his poor child has to listen to every day? gain weight, lose daddy's love. I bet the kid already knows his own bmi. kid's fort/cubhouse probably has a sign on the door "no fatties."
93
89-91
Gay men account for 53% of new AIDS cases in America-
they are 50 times a likely to get AIDS as the average American.
Have they been listening to Dan?
And Dan wants to play Pied Piper to the kids of America- telling them that anal sex and oral sex and GAY SEX (Dan's caps...) are 100% safe and foolproof.
The facts tell otherwise.
Gay men account for 53% of new AIDS cases in America-
they are 50 times a likely to get AIDS as the average American.
Have they been listening to Dan?
And Dan wants to play Pied Piper to the kids of America- telling them that anal sex and oral sex and GAY SEX (Dan's caps...) are 100% safe and foolproof.
The facts tell otherwise.
94
@Stace: Look, Dan's always been pretty consistent about encouraging people to understand and calculate the risks involved in whatever they do. A calculated risk is a risk you can take responsibilty for, because not only do you have an idea of the likelihood of any consequences, but you have a clear picture of what the consequences will be.
Criticizing impulsive behavior is not the same thing. Whether one is impulsively screwing disease-ridden addicts or impulsively eating Oreos, the biggest problem with impulsiveness is that one has implicitly not considered the consequences for oneself or for others.
So, pointing out that Dan has a timeline for trusting sexual partners in no way reveals any hypocrisy. It's entirely consistent with an approach that favors informed personal responsibility.
Criticizing impulsive behavior is not the same thing. Whether one is impulsively screwing disease-ridden addicts or impulsively eating Oreos, the biggest problem with impulsiveness is that one has implicitly not considered the consequences for oneself or for others.
So, pointing out that Dan has a timeline for trusting sexual partners in no way reveals any hypocrisy. It's entirely consistent with an approach that favors informed personal responsibility.
95
94
93
Dan has been preaching to gay men for 20 years to no effect-
so-called 'safe sex' is a joke.
Carrying that same failed message to teens is criminal.
93
Dan has been preaching to gay men for 20 years to no effect-
so-called 'safe sex' is a joke.
Carrying that same failed message to teens is criminal.
97
The post was about parents leading by example when it comes teaching their children good eating habits. Somehow it gets turned into hysterical screams, "Dan will hate his child if his child gets fat!", and "Dan encourages bare-backing!"
Project much?
Project much?
98
Ellyn Satter, a well known feeding specialist, has recommendations on how to handle forbidden foods with your children. Satter invented the concept of the Division of Responsibility (DOR) in feeding : Parents decide when and what to feed their children, children decide whether to eat and how much. DOR is based on a wide research base showing that too little structure or too high controls in feeding result in children who do not self-regulate well, and therefore either overeat or undereat. To read more about Satter's views on forbidden foods, see link: https://ellynsatter.com/showArticle.jsp?…
And for Satter's interesting perspective on handling Halloween candy, see: https://ellynsatter.com/newsletters.jsp?…
And for Satter's interesting perspective on handling Halloween candy, see: https://ellynsatter.com/newsletters.jsp?…
99
If someone wants to be dumb enough to bareback, let 'em - thinning of the herd. Same with smoking, eating fatty junk, drinking themselves to death. See ya, don't let the door hit you in the ass.
100
No, Rob--
My point was as follows, This post would be an example of a place where Dan encourages others to view him as as example. It is irresponsible for him to continue to behave recklessly when he hold his behavior up as a model for others.
Perhaps my greatest beef with Dan is that he fails to realize that he now has an audience which include many, many very unsophisticated people. If he were not one of the most vocal and sanctimonious role models for gay young men or if he kept his private behavior private, I would not criticize it.
Dan's recklessness is a big deal. He has not done as much as the bareback porn he rightly rails against to discourage universal condom use, but, really, who has done more to tell gay kids they should stop using condoms as soon as they're sure they really love each other?
My point was as follows, This post would be an example of a place where Dan encourages others to view him as as example. It is irresponsible for him to continue to behave recklessly when he hold his behavior up as a model for others.
Perhaps my greatest beef with Dan is that he fails to realize that he now has an audience which include many, many very unsophisticated people. If he were not one of the most vocal and sanctimonious role models for gay young men or if he kept his private behavior private, I would not criticize it.
Dan's recklessness is a big deal. He has not done as much as the bareback porn he rightly rails against to discourage universal condom use, but, really, who has done more to tell gay kids they should stop using condoms as soon as they're sure they really love each other?
101
@87 et al
Dan does not encourage barebacking. Dan does not encourage dropping the condoms at 3 months. Dan gets furious at HIV-fighting organizations that don't insist on condoms and sero-sorting.
I don't know the exact details of Dan's relationship, but I've always gotten the firm impression that there were strict boundaries on the non-monogamous interactions - the door, as he would say, is only open a crack, not blown off the hinges. Dan talks about rolling around with a casual partner - i.e., non-penetrative sex - as a valid and safer alternative. I REALLY, really doubt that Dan is running out and barebacking with various men, and I have never heard him encourage or advise anyone to do so in his many years of columns, podcasts, and blogging.
Claiming that Dan is weakening the taboo against unprotected anal sex, and that he is directly "killing other people's kids" when he has fought so hard for condom use and for comprehensive, practical anti-HIV tactics... well, it's frankly bizarre.
Dan does not encourage barebacking. Dan does not encourage dropping the condoms at 3 months. Dan gets furious at HIV-fighting organizations that don't insist on condoms and sero-sorting.
I don't know the exact details of Dan's relationship, but I've always gotten the firm impression that there were strict boundaries on the non-monogamous interactions - the door, as he would say, is only open a crack, not blown off the hinges. Dan talks about rolling around with a casual partner - i.e., non-penetrative sex - as a valid and safer alternative. I REALLY, really doubt that Dan is running out and barebacking with various men, and I have never heard him encourage or advise anyone to do so in his many years of columns, podcasts, and blogging.
Claiming that Dan is weakening the taboo against unprotected anal sex, and that he is directly "killing other people's kids" when he has fought so hard for condom use and for comprehensive, practical anti-HIV tactics... well, it's frankly bizarre.
102
"who has done more to tell gay kids they should stop using condoms as soon as they're sure they really love each other? "
This is a flat-out misrepresentation of Dan's advice. Dan recommends that gay kids SHOULDN'T have penetrative sex in their teens, that they should wait until they're a little more prepared and educated about the risks out there. He recommends that couples get tested together, then wait three months, then get tested again, then wait three months, then get tested again before even considering dropping the condoms. And finally, he tells everyone that is considering taking a sexual risk - which barebacking always is, even with a monogamous partner - that they have a decision to make as an adult that may put them in danger. He doesn't say that they SHOULD go without condoms, he says that they have a right to decide as adults. Which they do.
This is a flat-out misrepresentation of Dan's advice. Dan recommends that gay kids SHOULDN'T have penetrative sex in their teens, that they should wait until they're a little more prepared and educated about the risks out there. He recommends that couples get tested together, then wait three months, then get tested again, then wait three months, then get tested again before even considering dropping the condoms. And finally, he tells everyone that is considering taking a sexual risk - which barebacking always is, even with a monogamous partner - that they have a decision to make as an adult that may put them in danger. He doesn't say that they SHOULD go without condoms, he says that they have a right to decide as adults. Which they do.
103
100, So you're saying that Dan should dumb it down for folks who might misunderstand him? (Like you?) He does not claim to be a role model. He found success as an advice columnist, and has done well for himself. People choose to come to him for advice. He has every right to speak his mind, and you have every right to disagree with him. He is not dispersing his opinions at gun point. He's not forcing you to listen. That is a choice you are making.
You just keep posting unsubstantiated claims here. Unless you can back them up with credible links, you are just spreading internet rumors.
You just keep posting unsubstantiated claims here. Unless you can back them up with credible links, you are just spreading internet rumors.
104
Lymerae:
You do very accurately describe the advice given to gay kids. Which is very different from "responsible gay men use sex when they have condoms. Always." That used to be the line. Period. Is Dan as big a factor as condom fatigue and effective meds at changing it? Of course not. Has his work to change community standards to meet his personal desires killed people? Of course it has.
Rob:
You wrote the sentence "He does not claim to be a role model" in response to a comment on an article about how he gets his kid to eat well.
Are you actually claiming I should link to things Dan Savage said on his own site? I'm assuming anyone who cares enough to doubt my veracity is in the right place to go to prove me wrong. I'll think about links, if you like-- seems kind of crazed to me.
You do very accurately describe the advice given to gay kids. Which is very different from "responsible gay men use sex when they have condoms. Always." That used to be the line. Period. Is Dan as big a factor as condom fatigue and effective meds at changing it? Of course not. Has his work to change community standards to meet his personal desires killed people? Of course it has.
Rob:
You wrote the sentence "He does not claim to be a role model" in response to a comment on an article about how he gets his kid to eat well.
Are you actually claiming I should link to things Dan Savage said on his own site? I'm assuming anyone who cares enough to doubt my veracity is in the right place to go to prove me wrong. I'll think about links, if you like-- seems kind of crazed to me.
105
"Some kids have a texture issue"
ummmmmmmmmm hahahah that shit is laughable. I was raised to eat whatever was made. I was also raised that when visiting other people's homes, you ate a little bit of everything they cooked, even if you hated it. You had at least 3 bites of everything, period. There is no way in hell my parents would have been like "oh nos! you have a texture issue? Let me get you something else." omg. Another reason kids are super sensitive these days. I will make food, and unless there is an allergy, my kids will eat it. Oh they don't like it? Looks like they get to have it for breakfast too! Oh they don't want to eat it at breakfast? Someone is having leftovers for dinner! Kids need to learn that not every damn meal is going to be to their exact liking, and sometimes you have to politely eat food that tastes terrible.
106
Whoa, Stace - you are seriously and directly accusing Dan of murder. "Has his work to change community standards to meet his personal desires killed people? Of course it has." Yes, I think you should have to back up your statements when you claim that an advice columnist has killed people. Yours are the claims that seem kind of crazed.
"responsible gay men use sex when they have condoms. Always." I'm assuming you did a little typo-switcharoo in there...
"responsible gay men use sex when they have condoms. Always." I'm assuming you did a little typo-switcharoo in there...
107
104, He's voicing his opinions. Following your "logic" to is absurd conclusion, that means you are holding yourself up as a role model for doing the same here.
Yes, I am saying you need to link to Dan's own site to prove your claims. Here's how I did it to disprove your nonsense.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…
You are just making stuff up, and stating it as fact.
Yes, I am saying you need to link to Dan's own site to prove your claims. Here's how I did it to disprove your nonsense.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…
You are just making stuff up, and stating it as fact.
108
In 1997 Dan became the loudest, most aggressive gay male voice in the debate on HIV and AIDS. If you want to debate the timing, or that contention, I'll be happy to consider what other gay man has been or more influential since that time or that Savage really became prominent in that discuss when he declared the HIV crisis over that year.
It was in 1998 that the HIV rate stopped dropping and started increasing, something it has continued to do as Dan Savage and his philosophy of replacing universal condom use with negotiated safety have gained popularity.
Dan gets away with a lot because too many of his peers are dead and he gets to sell his view of history as the truth. Some of us are still alive, Dan. We know that gay men used to talk about safe sex in a completely different way and that no one else has steered the conversation away from condoms as a constant norm than you.
It was in 1998 that the HIV rate stopped dropping and started increasing, something it has continued to do as Dan Savage and his philosophy of replacing universal condom use with negotiated safety have gained popularity.
Dan gets away with a lot because too many of his peers are dead and he gets to sell his view of history as the truth. Some of us are still alive, Dan. We know that gay men used to talk about safe sex in a completely different way and that no one else has steered the conversation away from condoms as a constant norm than you.
109
Still no evidence, Stace. Yes, we would like facts when you're making such sweeping claims. You keep claiming that you would be happy to provide evidence, and yet keep failing to do so. Proofs please.
110
Dude,
If you are too lazy and poor to take of your children and teach them about eating right, make healthy meals and have a sit down meal time with your child THAN YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE KIDS.
I hate this everyone is entitled to parenthood mentality. Yeah, I do understand that we live in a different world that doesn't allow either parent to be a stay at home parent and that is not what I am advocating.
But the dumb shits that preach about how it isn't easy to show their kids how to eat right, or why teach them what is right when they can go out and get the bad shit somewhere else anyway??? REALLY??? Are you really that daft?
Perhaps you will start providing them and their friends alcohol and drugs? Why not? I mean, they are going to go out and get it somewhere else anyway right?
That is the most fucked up mentality EVER. "I am going to give them shitty high fat high sugar foods because they can get somewhere else anywhere" what a shitty excuse for enabling your own bad habits.
If you are too lazy and poor to take of your children and teach them about eating right, make healthy meals and have a sit down meal time with your child THAN YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE KIDS.
I hate this everyone is entitled to parenthood mentality. Yeah, I do understand that we live in a different world that doesn't allow either parent to be a stay at home parent and that is not what I am advocating.
But the dumb shits that preach about how it isn't easy to show their kids how to eat right, or why teach them what is right when they can go out and get the bad shit somewhere else anyway??? REALLY??? Are you really that daft?
Perhaps you will start providing them and their friends alcohol and drugs? Why not? I mean, they are going to go out and get it somewhere else anyway right?
That is the most fucked up mentality EVER. "I am going to give them shitty high fat high sugar foods because they can get somewhere else anywhere" what a shitty excuse for enabling your own bad habits.
111
74 - "I was saying that I don't understand why people don't just refrain from buying chips, cookies, etc. for their kids."
Um, maybe because these are all the kinds of foods that are super-cheap? And healthier foods are usually (not always, but usually) more expensive? Go see "Food Inc" or read Michael Pollan or something. It becomes pretty clear why those foods are so popular, especially among the poor.
Um, maybe because these are all the kinds of foods that are super-cheap? And healthier foods are usually (not always, but usually) more expensive? Go see "Food Inc" or read Michael Pollan or something. It becomes pretty clear why those foods are so popular, especially among the poor.
112
Stace, you're making baseless, unsubstantiated crap up, and this thread is about parents teaching children to eat better by setting a good example. You are desperately trying to divert the conversation away from that topic.
Dan's position on the actual topic at hand is that children tend to emulate their parents in their eating habits. Parents with good eating habits are more likely to have children that have good eating habits. What is your problem with his assessment?
Dan's position on the actual topic at hand is that children tend to emulate their parents in their eating habits. Parents with good eating habits are more likely to have children that have good eating habits. What is your problem with his assessment?
113
Find Dan's February 25, 1997 column "The AIDS Crisis is over for Me." You can't link to it directly on line because it is an embarrassment to Dan and he hides it.
It told gay men not to be scared of AIDS. Find a gay man who was pubic about barebacking before that or accept that he was the first to do it.
Look at the CDC if you think HIV rates didn't start increasing the next year.
Was Dan the most important factor? Not even close!
An important factor? Hard to deny.
It told gay men not to be scared of AIDS. Find a gay man who was pubic about barebacking before that or accept that he was the first to do it.
Look at the CDC if you think HIV rates didn't start increasing the next year.
Was Dan the most important factor? Not even close!
An important factor? Hard to deny.
114
@111, Seen it, read it.
I understand the issue about it being cheaper to buy processed, unhealthy calories than fresh, healthy ones. But, chips, soda, and store-bought cookies are luxuries. And I'm not talking about nutrition luxuries, but cost luxuries. If you are middle class or above, there's no reason to feed your kid that stuff. If you are poor, I doubt you can afford to buy it.
It's possible to eat healthily if you are poor. More difficult, for sure, but possible.
I understand the issue about it being cheaper to buy processed, unhealthy calories than fresh, healthy ones. But, chips, soda, and store-bought cookies are luxuries. And I'm not talking about nutrition luxuries, but cost luxuries. If you are middle class or above, there's no reason to feed your kid that stuff. If you are poor, I doubt you can afford to buy it.
It's possible to eat healthily if you are poor. More difficult, for sure, but possible.
115
Wow, Dan! I had no idea you were so powerful! First you were singlehandedly responsible for the Iraq War, and now I find out that you are responsible for the rise in HIV rates. Thank goodness I read slog comments and thank goodness for trolls.
116
Not singlehandly, silly. He's just helped both causes along. And now he's working on Helter Skelter.
117
115, Apparently, he's also the reason why there is an obesity problem in the world too. The nerve of him making people feel bad with his good eating and exercise habits! And to encourage his child to do the same!?! The monster!
118
117, You know, I thought he was just an advice columnist, and crazily enough, I thought advice was really just someone's opinion and really only worth the weight you give to it. I had no idea that he was tearing down society as we know it. I'm just shocked!
119
Also, Dan Savage caused, in the following order:
AIDS
The Challenger explosion
The Rwandan genocide
The Nisqually earthquake
9/11
Every tsunami ever
Alex Rodriguez
AIDS
The Challenger explosion
The Rwandan genocide
The Nisqually earthquake
9/11
Every tsunami ever
Alex Rodriguez
120
@ 110, that's biology you're talking about, not some sense of "entitlement." And bad parents have used that kind of reasoning for all kinds of stupid things. Poor diet choices in an age where we're bombarded with junk food is only the latest.
121
@ 113, that column is reprinted in hisa book "Savage Love." Not exactly hidden. Furthermore, ALL Stranger stuff from that far back is unavailable online.
I'm starting to think that ecce homo has a more polite twin.
I'm starting to think that ecce homo has a more polite twin.
122
My parents ate vegetables nightly when I was a kid. I wanted no part of them, so obviously just observation wasn't enough. I liked some fruits, but vegetables didn't appeal to me in the slightest. When I got to be 11 or 12, I started to like a vegetable or two and added more to the "like" list as I got older.
I'm sure you know siblings who have different eating habits, so just being raised in a particular environment doesn't guarantee anything.
I'm sure you know siblings who have different eating habits, so just being raised in a particular environment doesn't guarantee anything.
124
@120
Does that make it okay...?
There are ways to avoid pregnancy for those who are in no condition to take care of children. Just because there are shitloads of bad parents out there with multiple excuses for their poor child rearing that are really just ways to enable their own bad habits ... doesn't make it okay ... and doesn't make this particular sentiment "I will give them what is bad for them because they will get it somewhere else anyway" acceptable. It still makes the parent in question sound negligent and daft.
People who opt to have children when they cannot take care of them are selfish.
Something being the "norm" doesn't really make it okay or acceptable. I also firmly believe that parents with obese children and parents who smoke in front of their children should be sited for child abuse.
Children need parents, not best buddies who are so afraid of their child disliking them that they will give them soda and cookies with every meal.
Does that make it okay...?
There are ways to avoid pregnancy for those who are in no condition to take care of children. Just because there are shitloads of bad parents out there with multiple excuses for their poor child rearing that are really just ways to enable their own bad habits ... doesn't make it okay ... and doesn't make this particular sentiment "I will give them what is bad for them because they will get it somewhere else anyway" acceptable. It still makes the parent in question sound negligent and daft.
People who opt to have children when they cannot take care of them are selfish.
Something being the "norm" doesn't really make it okay or acceptable. I also firmly believe that parents with obese children and parents who smoke in front of their children should be sited for child abuse.
Children need parents, not best buddies who are so afraid of their child disliking them that they will give them soda and cookies with every meal.
125
PBS has a great series on "How Inequality Is Making Us Sick" - it strikes me that access to "Healthy" foods can not be taken out of the equation. I am assuming that Dan is aiming his article at those parents with the necessary background, economic resources and social class to provide a healthy diet, and just choose to indulge and feed their children whatever they want. In that case maybe (along with if these child do not venture out into the world or watch tv or go on the internet) the case is just that simple.
Whew, I was worried I would have to think.
Whew, I was worried I would have to think.
126
@122, what if those vegetables had never been on your table at all while you were growing up? Would you have your "like" list as an adult today? As somebody who really didn't think about vegetables beyond a can or a frozen bag, I had never tasted spinach until I was in my early 20's. And that was because my roommate had made a salad with it. Real food was so utterly foreign to me back then.
It's not really about "observation" but instead, exposure. If it's there, you're more likely to eat it and (in your case) eventually enjoy it.
It's not really about "observation" but instead, exposure. If it's there, you're more likely to eat it and (in your case) eventually enjoy it.
127
Rob In Baltimore, you simply do not get it. Dan did not cause obesity. But what Dan does is add heat to the discussion, not light. In that regard he is no different from the Rush Limbaughs and Bill O'Reillys. He adds nothing to the discussion. He simplifies the issue to the point of absurdity. And he seems to find it amusing.
In his world, the overweight are lazy and small-brained. He indeed believes himself to be a roll model and explains in this post how to parent. He cares not one bit for those who struggle with weight issues. He knows not of what he speaks and is far from an authority on the matter yet he blathers on to gain more hits. He wins. But he does harm while his hits climb. Make no mistake about that. It is not necessary for him to laugh at the overweight, he just enjoys doing so. He enjoys that and pontificating about weight issues. It reflects poorly on him.
Yes, yes, i know, he's a bad man don't read his blog. the usual attempt at a glib response.
Rob, by all means, continue your hero worship just avoid those crab cakes. Those of us who work with people who struggle with weight issues, well we know a jerk when we see one.
In his world, the overweight are lazy and small-brained. He indeed believes himself to be a roll model and explains in this post how to parent. He cares not one bit for those who struggle with weight issues. He knows not of what he speaks and is far from an authority on the matter yet he blathers on to gain more hits. He wins. But he does harm while his hits climb. Make no mistake about that. It is not necessary for him to laugh at the overweight, he just enjoys doing so. He enjoys that and pontificating about weight issues. It reflects poorly on him.
Yes, yes, i know, he's a bad man don't read his blog. the usual attempt at a glib response.
Rob, by all means, continue your hero worship just avoid those crab cakes. Those of us who work with people who struggle with weight issues, well we know a jerk when we see one.
128
@125 What are you doing posting comments that force people to think?
Stop suggesting obesity is not just a matter of laziness and lack of control and that it can't be solved by the simple solutions that Dan offers.
Stop suggesting obesity is not just a matter of laziness and lack of control and that it can't be solved by the simple solutions that Dan offers.
129
@ 124, it is what it is. People are going to have children because they can and they want. You might as well complain about the weather.
130
@125, absolutely social class correlates with good nutrition; access, education, money, and resources all play a part in this. But what Dan is saying is that parents "wish" their kids would eat better, yet aren't willing to do so themselves and often make excuses why not to eat better. There are parents of all classes guilty of this in some shape or form.
131
@129
Ah, well I guess I didn't realize that opinions were reserved only for those who agreed with the status quo.
I am not the one that brought up this topic. I am not the one that started this discussion. But I am still allowed to state my opinions/feelings/judgments on the matter.
Whether they have children or not, doesn't mean that I am just going to accept that it automatically makes them fit for child rearing.
I live in Seattle because I like the weather. And because there are more dogs than children, so I don't have to put up with less than awesome parents and their less than awesome children.
Ah, well I guess I didn't realize that opinions were reserved only for those who agreed with the status quo.
I am not the one that brought up this topic. I am not the one that started this discussion. But I am still allowed to state my opinions/feelings/judgments on the matter.
Whether they have children or not, doesn't mean that I am just going to accept that it automatically makes them fit for child rearing.
I live in Seattle because I like the weather. And because there are more dogs than children, so I don't have to put up with less than awesome parents and their less than awesome children.
132
"It is not necessary for him to laugh at the overweight, he just enjoys doing so."
Riiiight. That's exactly what he's doing.
Sometimes I get the impression that every argument one has with a fat acceptance advocate turns into an argument between that advocate and some kid they encountered on the playground who yelled "Fatty!" at them in fourth grade. They're waaay too busy yelling at that kid to get around to any points you actually have to make.
Riiiight. That's exactly what he's doing.
Sometimes I get the impression that every argument one has with a fat acceptance advocate turns into an argument between that advocate and some kid they encountered on the playground who yelled "Fatty!" at them in fourth grade. They're waaay too busy yelling at that kid to get around to any points you actually have to make.
133
Matt:
Thanks for pointing people to the Savage Love book. Since those early columns with deliberately bad advice will likely STAY unavailable, it provides the most complete, ready to read evidence that Dan's habit of murderous irresponsibility has been going on for two decades. The column is right there on page 292, somewhat edited but still killing people.
And it's hard to pick the book up without being reminded that virtually all the other words that used be used to attack gay people have fallen into disuse. Thanks to Dan and Fred Phelps, we still get to hear "faggot," in every summer comedy.
Thanks for pointing people to the Savage Love book. Since those early columns with deliberately bad advice will likely STAY unavailable, it provides the most complete, ready to read evidence that Dan's habit of murderous irresponsibility has been going on for two decades. The column is right there on page 292, somewhat edited but still killing people.
And it's hard to pick the book up without being reminded that virtually all the other words that used be used to attack gay people have fallen into disuse. Thanks to Dan and Fred Phelps, we still get to hear "faggot," in every summer comedy.
134
132-- You might think that because you are most likely to be aware that someone is a fat acceptance advocate only after someone has already screamed, "Fatty!" Once a person has been identified as an object for for ridicule, neurology makes it very difficult for him or her to get in new information. Judging the behavior of fat people based on Slog is like judging the behavior of black people based on how they acted around George Wallace.
135
To the heavy folks here who think that Dan is being unfair to you. I would suggest to you that rather than returning to Slog, where you feel bad about yourselves, you check out the following websites:
http://www.smallstep.gov/index.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/index.html
http://www.smallstep.gov/index.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/index.html
136
135
who made you the den mother for slog?
i would suggest to you that you fuck yourself and stfu.
who made you the den mother for slog?
i would suggest to you that you fuck yourself and stfu.
137
@134 - and apparently, every fat acceptance advocate is in the PERMANENT position of deciding they're an object of ridicule whenever the subject of obesity comes up - regardless of what's actually said in the discussion. You hear someone screaming "Fatty!" no matter what's actually said. If that's how you're going to be, and you're just going to pound at the same straw men every time anyway, why should anyone care what you have to say?
138
My mother is a degreed nutritionist, and I never had junk food in the house except on the rare occasion that it was brought in from elsewhere, e.g. my Hallowe'en candy (much of which was saved for hiking trips), gifts, and goods baked at home. (Once I was allowed to eat what I cooked, learning to make cookies was a first-order endeavor.)
On the upside, my snacking habits focused mostly on fruits and whatever cold-cut items were left in the refrigerator (i.e. cheese and salami, whatever could fit on a cracker), habits that I have still, today.
On the downside, I went through a weird binge in my early twenties once I was free to purchase all the yummy-looking snack foods that were available. It was like I had to get it out of my system. I also remember purchasing (and consuming) inordinate amounts of candy during my tweens as if I were hypoglycemic. It was freaky.
I also turned back to Pop-Tarts and Eggos during my Remeron binge. Drug-induced freakiness.
Not saying it's what happens to everyone, but that's what happened to me.
On the upside, my snacking habits focused mostly on fruits and whatever cold-cut items were left in the refrigerator (i.e. cheese and salami, whatever could fit on a cracker), habits that I have still, today.
On the downside, I went through a weird binge in my early twenties once I was free to purchase all the yummy-looking snack foods that were available. It was like I had to get it out of my system. I also remember purchasing (and consuming) inordinate amounts of candy during my tweens as if I were hypoglycemic. It was freaky.
I also turned back to Pop-Tarts and Eggos during my Remeron binge. Drug-induced freakiness.
Not saying it's what happens to everyone, but that's what happened to me.
139
Again, the atmosphere at Slog is endemically hostile to the obese-- try to find a thread on the topic that does not include brickbats thrown at fatties if you doubt me.
But I do not mean to make excuses for fat acceptance advocates or put myself on their side. I think everyone who is overweight should try hard to lose weight, and I am embarrassed by those posts that claim there are tons of fat people who exercise all the time and eat modestly but do not lose weight. The number of obese people for whom personal choice is not the most significant factor in their size is minuscule. Obesity is a huge public health issue. I am not someone who believes you can be "fat and healthy," certainly not with a BMI of 30 or more.
But I do not mean to make excuses for fat acceptance advocates or put myself on their side. I think everyone who is overweight should try hard to lose weight, and I am embarrassed by those posts that claim there are tons of fat people who exercise all the time and eat modestly but do not lose weight. The number of obese people for whom personal choice is not the most significant factor in their size is minuscule. Obesity is a huge public health issue. I am not someone who believes you can be "fat and healthy," certainly not with a BMI of 30 or more.
140
@ 131, of course you can state your opinion. I just happen to have my own opinion - namely, that some opinions are absurd because they're about things that can not and will not change. And now I'm sharing it here because this is an open forum. See how that works?
141
@105, I said it's not simple when kids have texture issues, not that it's impossible. Autistic and Asperger kids often have texture issues; that makes it not simple.
142
@ 133, my point was that Savage does not seem to be hiding this stuff to me; which is why I pointed out that the Stranger online archives don't go back that far AS A WHOLE. To be charitable, I think that's a real stretch to conclude that Dan has buried his opinion, or is otherwise ashamed of it, especially since that same opinion is circulating in print today.
143
No, Matt. It would be a stretch to claim-- as many did at the time-- that the HIV controversy was courted deliberately in order to clinch the book deal and generate buzz for the book. That's no more true than that Dan adopted a child to fulfill a book deal. It's no less true, either.
144
I'm not interested in any of that, Stace, I'm just interested in whether you think Dan is hiding his opinion about the AIDS crisis or not.
145
To lymerae and Rob in Baltimore,
Stace is here to criticize for the sake of criticizing. Post #66 here: http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
She's a troll. Just click "hide" next to her name, and it'll be tons better for you, I promise.
Stace is here to criticize for the sake of criticizing. Post #66 here: http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
She's a troll. Just click "hide" next to her name, and it'll be tons better for you, I promise.
146
I think Dan has backed away from pushing the Savage Love book, in part because of embarrassment over that, yes. And I do think you are forgetting just how bowdlerized the content of the book is in comparison to the original columns. I know he wants you to forget that he made it more okay for more gay men to use fewer condoms when he announced he and his boyfriend didn't use them. But-- hey-- I really don't care about whether Dan is hiding it or not. It killed people, something you are unable to dispute.
147
Man, speaking of eating, etc., I love this book:
The End of Overeating: Taking Control of the Insatiable American Appetite
by David Kessler
Read it, Dan. (And anyone else who cares, but since Dan has the fatty-bully pulpit...)
The End of Overeating: Taking Control of the Insatiable American Appetite
by David Kessler
Read it, Dan. (And anyone else who cares, but since Dan has the fatty-bully pulpit...)
148
@ 146, I don't dispute the absurd. Don't take that as evidence of the soundness of your argument.
149
@140
Rather odd argument you have there ... is this like a devil's advocate sorta thing you're doing here? Telling people that their opinions are absurd because they don't match up with yours?
It is possible to have opinions about things that are likely not going to be changed. Like the environment, the overpopulation of our world, the insane overspending by our government on the military, homophobia and racism ... I am going to guess that you are either for or against changing any of those items in one way or another, but how likely do you think your opinion on them is actually going to make a difference? God forbid we have an opinion on how children are brought into this world and how they are treated from there on after.
I understand and accept that for the most part stupid people are going to keep breeding, but that doesn't mean that I have to be "ok" with that. I've worked with children for more than half my life and I see the effects of coming into the world unwanted has on them.
As I said before, just because shitloads of shitty parents are out there and idiotic people who can't take care of children are having them anyway, doesn't mean that I am going to roll over be like "well, since you're all out there anyway, I guess it is ok for you to be shitty parents." Uh ... no, my personal opinion is still that if you can't take of children you shouldn't have them. And the idea that you should feed children shit because, well if you don't somebody else is going to, is quite possibly the most absurd argument brought to these comments.
Rather odd argument you have there ... is this like a devil's advocate sorta thing you're doing here? Telling people that their opinions are absurd because they don't match up with yours?
It is possible to have opinions about things that are likely not going to be changed. Like the environment, the overpopulation of our world, the insane overspending by our government on the military, homophobia and racism ... I am going to guess that you are either for or against changing any of those items in one way or another, but how likely do you think your opinion on them is actually going to make a difference? God forbid we have an opinion on how children are brought into this world and how they are treated from there on after.
I understand and accept that for the most part stupid people are going to keep breeding, but that doesn't mean that I have to be "ok" with that. I've worked with children for more than half my life and I see the effects of coming into the world unwanted has on them.
As I said before, just because shitloads of shitty parents are out there and idiotic people who can't take care of children are having them anyway, doesn't mean that I am going to roll over be like "well, since you're all out there anyway, I guess it is ok for you to be shitty parents." Uh ... no, my personal opinion is still that if you can't take of children you shouldn't have them. And the idea that you should feed children shit because, well if you don't somebody else is going to, is quite possibly the most absurd argument brought to these comments.
150
Matt, the extent of Dan's irresponsibility is so extreme that any attempt to describe it accurately sounds absurd. I understand this, and I don't blame you for rejecting my view of events. Don't even focus on the past-- I only bring it up because Dan continues to say things for shock value without regard for the people who might get hurt. There's plenty of other evidence of this, too.
151
I grew up in a co-op shopping, natural foods-eating, home-cooking, occasionally-gardening kind of house. My sister and I weren't allowed candy, junk food, chips, soda, etc. My parent allowed some sweets, like all-natural vanilla or chocolate ice cream, and deemed certain candy-bars OK, but mostly on special occasions. We were talked to like adults, given correct and accurate information about health and nutrition, played lots of sports and lived active and happy lives.
Because (or in spite) of this, we schemed constantly to deceive our parents and earned money to buy Now&Laters, soda, slurpees and any other sugary substance we could get our hands on. As latchkey kids, we would keep a lookout for my parents to come home as we binged on Sugar Babies and Tangy Taffys. We BEGGED for soda (since they drank beer and wine) and hated them for depriving us of what other kids could have. It took me into my mid-20s to ween myself off that sugary crap and now I'm the home-cooking, co-oop shopping, gardening clone my parents wanted me to be.
My sister? She's a typical American: Gets her "health" information from the news and newspapers, is always trying new diets and exercise programs, and eats no real food whatsoever. Despite growing up eating home cooking, she won't cook spaghetti, let alone make a salad, and lives on take-out and frozen food.
So, Dan, you're well-meaning but wrong. Kids are unique, independent individuals. Congratulations on having such a well-adjusted, happy, interesting, healthy child, but you can't expect all children to monkey everything their parents do. If that was the case, Republicans would ONLY breed Republicans; bigots would breed bigots, etc, etc, etc...., and as many people know, lots of people grow up trying to be exactly what their parents AREN'T.
More...
Because (or in spite) of this, we schemed constantly to deceive our parents and earned money to buy Now&Laters, soda, slurpees and any other sugary substance we could get our hands on. As latchkey kids, we would keep a lookout for my parents to come home as we binged on Sugar Babies and Tangy Taffys. We BEGGED for soda (since they drank beer and wine) and hated them for depriving us of what other kids could have. It took me into my mid-20s to ween myself off that sugary crap and now I'm the home-cooking, co-oop shopping, gardening clone my parents wanted me to be.
My sister? She's a typical American: Gets her "health" information from the news and newspapers, is always trying new diets and exercise programs, and eats no real food whatsoever. Despite growing up eating home cooking, she won't cook spaghetti, let alone make a salad, and lives on take-out and frozen food.
So, Dan, you're well-meaning but wrong. Kids are unique, independent individuals. Congratulations on having such a well-adjusted, happy, interesting, healthy child, but you can't expect all children to monkey everything their parents do. If that was the case, Republicans would ONLY breed Republicans; bigots would breed bigots, etc, etc, etc...., and as many people know, lots of people grow up trying to be exactly what their parents AREN'T.
152
@151
So you think that you would have chosen this lifestyle on your own had your parents not exposed you to it when you were younger?
So you think that you would have chosen this lifestyle on your own had your parents not exposed you to it when you were younger?
153
It's easy for Dan to say that his kid is following his example, because his kid is still young enough for his parents to be his primary influence. But soon that will shift to peers, and it won't make any difference what Dan says, because he will no longer be the primary influence in his son's decisions.
Scary thoughts for anyone with kids on the brink of their teens.
Scary thoughts for anyone with kids on the brink of their teens.
154
@153
well wouldn't you rather be able to say "well, I did what I can when I could" than "well I just gave up because I figured it would be out of my hands one day anyway"
The thing is that they might be influenced negatively or positively by their peers, but their parental support and influence will always be with them. And, if nothing else, they will have to learn to be crafty in order to get the "bad" stuff past their parents, or get a job in order to pay for it themselves, which all in all are good life lessons for kids to have.
At least you can know that you are doing everything in your power to be a positive influence and perhaps even try to teach them how to cope with peer pressures and what not. You never know unless you try. I'd rather say I tried and failed than that I never tried.
well wouldn't you rather be able to say "well, I did what I can when I could" than "well I just gave up because I figured it would be out of my hands one day anyway"
The thing is that they might be influenced negatively or positively by their peers, but their parental support and influence will always be with them. And, if nothing else, they will have to learn to be crafty in order to get the "bad" stuff past their parents, or get a job in order to pay for it themselves, which all in all are good life lessons for kids to have.
At least you can know that you are doing everything in your power to be a positive influence and perhaps even try to teach them how to cope with peer pressures and what not. You never know unless you try. I'd rather say I tried and failed than that I never tried.
155
I think it's very common for teenagers to test pretty much all the ideas their parents value, and they also often come back to those ideas when they're in their twenties.
156
I dunno. It seems to me that putting too much emphasis on a food's "moral" value (i.e., spinach good, candy bad) simply encourages people to become more obsessive about food. It's just fuel, for chrissakes. Eat food. Not too much. Mostly vegetables. I canNOT believe the amount of energy people put into obsessing about food.
When I was little, there was never candy in the house, and it wasn't purchased for me or given to me. I started shoplifting candy bars or using any money I came by to buy candy every chance I got. I'm no longer a candy junkie, but I was as a kid. Where'd it come from? Who knows. On the other hand, even as a tiny kid, I liked nearly all vegetables. Still do. Hated most fruit. Still do.
Oh, and speaking to equating seeing homosexuality with being homosexual - um, no. My mother lived with another woman when I was growing up. All their friends were women who lived in pairs. I'm still wired mostly to respond to men, not to other women. That was innate to me, despite seeing homosexual "behavior" modeled.
When I was little, there was never candy in the house, and it wasn't purchased for me or given to me. I started shoplifting candy bars or using any money I came by to buy candy every chance I got. I'm no longer a candy junkie, but I was as a kid. Where'd it come from? Who knows. On the other hand, even as a tiny kid, I liked nearly all vegetables. Still do. Hated most fruit. Still do.
Oh, and speaking to equating seeing homosexuality with being homosexual - um, no. My mother lived with another woman when I was growing up. All their friends were women who lived in pairs. I'm still wired mostly to respond to men, not to other women. That was innate to me, despite seeing homosexual "behavior" modeled.
157
The amount of absolute bullshit that comes from both sides of an argument on SLOG never ceases to amaze me. To paraphrase Lewis Black it's like someone says "I've got a REAAALY bad idea!" and then someone jumps up and says, "And I can make it worse!!"
158
When did Slog become a PEPS group? What's next, a cloth diaper discussion? Jesus Christ - this is as boring as dinner with a married couple.
159
@ 149, you're projecting in your first paragraph. It seems to me that you feel like your opinion is above criticism, and any critic is therefore "not okay" with you having your opinion. That's not sound thinking.
160
Well, this is true for a lot of people, and I think it's a good way to live..but it doesn't mean that everyone who can't get their kid to eat veggies is a piece of shit. I mean, I'm a vegan, and the only vegetable my son will eat is carrots, even though I eat all sorts of vegetables in front of him. In fact, his favorite food is bread, and yeah, I eat sandwiches sometimes, but I don't just laze around eating hunks of bread. He also really likes cheese and chicken, which I buy for him, but certainly have NEVER eaten in front of him. So, my point is, it is a good idea not to slather sugar on your food in front of your child (or in general), but everyone whose kid wants to eat cheetos shouldn't be blamed and shot in the head.
161
Kim from Portland needs to meet Matt from Hell and go to Antarctica or somewhere where they don't have internet and they can die from frostbite or something else we don't give a fuck about.
162
Tell me more about this "hiding" specific users' comments. There are a few people here who are consistently, reliably tedious. (I'm unsure whether they can't follow a nuanced argument, or are being willfully obtuse, but the stupid is getting old.)
163
For those curious, here is the shocking Village Voice article in question:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=bVU…
Yes, a little hard to find, but this is probably due to the fact that the bulk of Savage's online archives are hosted here at the Stranger, which was founded two years after the article in question. The Voice's archives are spotty.
But, Google knows all. So there you go.
And, yes, it's shocking! Shocking I tell you!
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=bVU…
Yes, a little hard to find, but this is probably due to the fact that the bulk of Savage's online archives are hosted here at the Stranger, which was founded two years after the article in question. The Voice's archives are spotty.
But, Google knows all. So there you go.
And, yes, it's shocking! Shocking I tell you!
164
Thanks, Lee. You may not be shocked by Dan's disappointment that a casual acquaintance wasn't dead, but what can I say? It was a more innocent time. It was quite shocking then.
165
1997 was a more innocent time? What the fuck?
And I don't see "disappointment" at the guy being alive, but surprise and mock schadenfreude.
You are a really terrible reader, Stace. From what I can gather, a terrible human being as well, but I'll stick with terrible reader for the time being.
Gawd.
And I don't see "disappointment" at the guy being alive, but surprise and mock schadenfreude.
You are a really terrible reader, Stace. From what I can gather, a terrible human being as well, but I'll stick with terrible reader for the time being.
Gawd.
166
It is ironic that Savage is so obsessed with healthy eating behavior.
Mother Nature has a way of letting us know when we are engaged in unhealthy behavior.
Eat too much and the wrong things and we get diabetes, heart disease, obese and die.
If someone suggested eating whatever you want but then making yourself vomit it up or taking a laxative to get rid of it or some other hocus pocus to try to avoid the consequenses of bad behavior Dan would probably condemn that.
He would insist that we should develop healthy habits and put food and eating in it’s proper perspective.
He condemns the obese for having poor willpower and no self control and indulging in destructive behavior.
It's really not that hard, he will assure us.
And he is right.
But when it comes to sexual behavior Dan can’t seem to make the connection.
Mother Nature rewards unwise, unhealthy and irresponsible sexual behavior with STDs and unplanned pregnancy.
Biology tells us that postponing sexual activity until we are ready to commit to a longterm relationship and then limiting our contact to that partner provides the best physical, emotional and social health.
Workarounds are just attempts to fool Mother Nature, and those never work.
A thin sheet of latex doesn’t render unhealthy behavior “safe”.
Finding alternate orafices doesn’t fool viruses.
Dan flaunts his rejection of Mother Nature’s guidance.
Like the 450 pounder who declares that ‘this is just the way I am’.
Come on, Dan-
Get with the program…
It's really not that hard.
And Mother does know best.
Mother Nature has a way of letting us know when we are engaged in unhealthy behavior.
Eat too much and the wrong things and we get diabetes, heart disease, obese and die.
If someone suggested eating whatever you want but then making yourself vomit it up or taking a laxative to get rid of it or some other hocus pocus to try to avoid the consequenses of bad behavior Dan would probably condemn that.
He would insist that we should develop healthy habits and put food and eating in it’s proper perspective.
He condemns the obese for having poor willpower and no self control and indulging in destructive behavior.
It's really not that hard, he will assure us.
And he is right.
But when it comes to sexual behavior Dan can’t seem to make the connection.
Mother Nature rewards unwise, unhealthy and irresponsible sexual behavior with STDs and unplanned pregnancy.
Biology tells us that postponing sexual activity until we are ready to commit to a longterm relationship and then limiting our contact to that partner provides the best physical, emotional and social health.
Workarounds are just attempts to fool Mother Nature, and those never work.
A thin sheet of latex doesn’t render unhealthy behavior “safe”.
Finding alternate orafices doesn’t fool viruses.
Dan flaunts his rejection of Mother Nature’s guidance.
Like the 450 pounder who declares that ‘this is just the way I am’.
Come on, Dan-
Get with the program…
It's really not that hard.
And Mother does know best.
167
re: hostility... I think if you subtract Stace from this discussion, it would actually be far less hostile than you'd expect a discussion about this to be. She's basically initiating all the scraps at this point.
re: the Village Voice thing... yeah, I know about that... but I'll admit I didn't read all 160+ comments, and have no idea why that was brought up. Can someone enlighten me?
re: the Village Voice thing... yeah, I know about that... but I'll admit I didn't read all 160+ comments, and have no idea why that was brought up. Can someone enlighten me?
168
re: hostility... I think if you subtract Stace from this discussion, it would actually be far less hostile than you'd expect a discussion about this to be. She's basically initiating all the scraps at this point.
re: the Village Voice thing... yeah, I know about that... but I'll admit I didn't read all 160+ comments, and have no idea why that was brought up. Can someone enlighten me?
re: the Village Voice thing... yeah, I know about that... but I'll admit I didn't read all 160+ comments, and have no idea why that was brought up. Can someone enlighten me?
169
@159
No no, it is not that my opinion is above criticism, I am honestly curious about your reasoning. How is my opinion, that people should be able to take care of children before they have them, absurd? And how, exactly is just saying that someone's opinion is "absurd" productive, when you cannot offer points as to why ... and you refuse to speak to any other points within the arguments.
I offered up points as to why the comments outlining the concept that "you might as well keep junk food around because your child will get it elsewhere anyway" are absurd. But you're only 'sticking point' is that it is absurd for me to have an opinion about something that I cannot change. But why? Why is that absurd? Because it sounds an awful lot like you are not saying that specific idea is absurd, how could it be? Don't you believe that people would be better parents were they capable of taking care of children before they have them? So it is just that I cannot change it? I just don't understand your reasoning here is all. And you have done nothing to explain it. Which makes me believe that you will likely not respond to this message, or at least your response will be something along the lines of me getting defensive and projecting, rather than something productive, like actual points to back up your argument.
You are welcome to disagree with me, I have no problems with that whatsoever, and I enjoy a well thought out debate, you just have not given me one here. If you just want your opinion to be "well I don't agree with you because I find your opinion absurd" well, that's fine then, but don't act like it is inappropriate for me to try to figure out why you feel that way.
No no, it is not that my opinion is above criticism, I am honestly curious about your reasoning. How is my opinion, that people should be able to take care of children before they have them, absurd? And how, exactly is just saying that someone's opinion is "absurd" productive, when you cannot offer points as to why ... and you refuse to speak to any other points within the arguments.
I offered up points as to why the comments outlining the concept that "you might as well keep junk food around because your child will get it elsewhere anyway" are absurd. But you're only 'sticking point' is that it is absurd for me to have an opinion about something that I cannot change. But why? Why is that absurd? Because it sounds an awful lot like you are not saying that specific idea is absurd, how could it be? Don't you believe that people would be better parents were they capable of taking care of children before they have them? So it is just that I cannot change it? I just don't understand your reasoning here is all. And you have done nothing to explain it. Which makes me believe that you will likely not respond to this message, or at least your response will be something along the lines of me getting defensive and projecting, rather than something productive, like actual points to back up your argument.
You are welcome to disagree with me, I have no problems with that whatsoever, and I enjoy a well thought out debate, you just have not given me one here. If you just want your opinion to be "well I don't agree with you because I find your opinion absurd" well, that's fine then, but don't act like it is inappropriate for me to try to figure out why you feel that way.
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#162. You'll need Greasemonkey, but go here: http://tinyurl.com/l8gb2y
You'll be able to "hide" those registered users who annoy (or simply bore) the shit out of you.
You'll be able to "hide" those registered users who annoy (or simply bore) the shit out of you.
172
@ 169, that wasn't your opinion. Let's go to the tape.
This isn't about "being able to take care of children;" almost all obese children DO get all of their nutritional needs met, so you can't say that they aren't being cared for.
Reread your first two paragraphs. You aren't judging people for being unable to care for their children; you're criticizing them for not meeting your arbitrary qualifications for parenthood, and it sounds like part of you wishes there was a test parents have to pass before they have children. That's what I was commenting about.
There are definitely issues surrounding children in poverty; but your original comment was not stating anything helpful or insightful about that. It was a rant, it caught my eye and drew a response.
Now, I don't know why you keep going on about this. I don't intend to keep going round and round with you. I've stated what I thought about your opinion, and you're more than welcome to keep it, and keep stating it. But you're not free to have others not comment in reply. God bless America.
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If you are too lazy and poor to take of your children and teach them about eating right, make healthy meals and have a sit down meal time with your child THAN YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE KIDS.
I hate this everyone is entitled to parenthood mentality. Yeah, I do understand that we live in a different world that doesn't allow either parent to be a stay at home parent and that is not what I am advocating.
But the dumb shits that preach about how it isn't easy to show their kids how to eat right, or why teach them what is right when they can go out and get the bad shit somewhere else anyway??? REALLY??? Are you really that daft?
Perhaps you will start providing them and their friends alcohol and drugs? Why not? I mean, they are going to go out and get it somewhere else anyway right?
That is the most fucked up mentality EVER. "I am going to give them shitty high fat high sugar foods because they can get somewhere else anywhere" what a shitty excuse for enabling your own bad habits.
This isn't about "being able to take care of children;" almost all obese children DO get all of their nutritional needs met, so you can't say that they aren't being cared for.
Reread your first two paragraphs. You aren't judging people for being unable to care for their children; you're criticizing them for not meeting your arbitrary qualifications for parenthood, and it sounds like part of you wishes there was a test parents have to pass before they have children. That's what I was commenting about.
There are definitely issues surrounding children in poverty; but your original comment was not stating anything helpful or insightful about that. It was a rant, it caught my eye and drew a response.
Now, I don't know why you keep going on about this. I don't intend to keep going round and round with you. I've stated what I thought about your opinion, and you're more than welcome to keep it, and keep stating it. But you're not free to have others not comment in reply. God bless America.
173
Following up on 172, since I realized I neglected to answer your question.
The reason your original post is absurd is because it's overly judgmental. This is about diet; and yes, while there are consequences for a nation that's raising a generation of obese children, that's still secondary to the kinds of things that ought to inspire your original comment, e.g., all the children being brought up in broken homes, abused and neglected, or kids learning hate and cruelty instead of respect and love; things that really DO bring up the qualifications of the parents into question.
In a nation where we don't teach nutrition, where we allow corporations to dictate such things, where public schools are allowed to have Coke machines, I'm giving the parents of obese kids who feel like they can't do a better job some slack. Not a lot, but I won't question their qualifications as sound, loving parents based on that.
The reason your original post is absurd is because it's overly judgmental. This is about diet; and yes, while there are consequences for a nation that's raising a generation of obese children, that's still secondary to the kinds of things that ought to inspire your original comment, e.g., all the children being brought up in broken homes, abused and neglected, or kids learning hate and cruelty instead of respect and love; things that really DO bring up the qualifications of the parents into question.
In a nation where we don't teach nutrition, where we allow corporations to dictate such things, where public schools are allowed to have Coke machines, I'm giving the parents of obese kids who feel like they can't do a better job some slack. Not a lot, but I won't question their qualifications as sound, loving parents based on that.
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@172 & 173
Ah, I got stuck on another part of my argument to which I thought that you were speaking, or I oversimplified my own statement something along those lines.
As I have stated previously, I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me or commenting on my comment so on and so forth. But, as you have every right to comment, I have every right to ask for clarification, you are welcome to give it or not, but when you continually just make one sentence responses that don't offer any clarification, unfortunately I am stubborn minded enough to seek further clarification. And I do appreciate you giving it to me. You may or may not care anymore enough to read my response ... I'm going to give it anyway.
"This isn't about "being able to take care of children;" almost all obese children DO get all of their nutritional needs met, so you can't say that they aren't being cared for."
No, if they are obese they are not getting all of their nutritional needs met. Just because they are not malnutritioned does not mean that they are healthy or well-cared for. Does not mean that they are consuming properly balanced meals or that they are getting all of the vitamins and minerals that their growing bodies need. They will not live long, sound happy lives. They are more likely to have major health problems for the rest of their lives because of their obesity, not to mention living with depression and experiencing cruelty from people around them (yeah, I was a fat kid, and no my parents, no matter how much they loved me, were not good parents).
Obesity in children has just as much merit for bringing the qualifications of parents into question as the other items that you outlined. It is another form of neglecting the actual needs of your child. And I agree with the other items that you mentioned as well, but, as you said, this is a post about diet, which is why that is the point that I spoke to.
I've never stated or implied that parents should have to take a test before having children. I expressed a desire for people to be aware of their life situation before deciding that they can bare the stresses of raising a child. My point, what I would like people to take away from my comments are that they should at least THINK about where they are at in life before they decide to have children. To assess whether or not they are capable of being that selfless. Perhaps I don't honestly believe that people will, but I can still try and put that thought in their minds.
I also never said that they were not LOVING parents. I just said that they were not capable parents. You can love the shit out of something and still be completely unable to properly care for it.
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Ah, I got stuck on another part of my argument to which I thought that you were speaking, or I oversimplified my own statement something along those lines.
As I have stated previously, I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me or commenting on my comment so on and so forth. But, as you have every right to comment, I have every right to ask for clarification, you are welcome to give it or not, but when you continually just make one sentence responses that don't offer any clarification, unfortunately I am stubborn minded enough to seek further clarification. And I do appreciate you giving it to me. You may or may not care anymore enough to read my response ... I'm going to give it anyway.
"This isn't about "being able to take care of children;" almost all obese children DO get all of their nutritional needs met, so you can't say that they aren't being cared for."
No, if they are obese they are not getting all of their nutritional needs met. Just because they are not malnutritioned does not mean that they are healthy or well-cared for. Does not mean that they are consuming properly balanced meals or that they are getting all of the vitamins and minerals that their growing bodies need. They will not live long, sound happy lives. They are more likely to have major health problems for the rest of their lives because of their obesity, not to mention living with depression and experiencing cruelty from people around them (yeah, I was a fat kid, and no my parents, no matter how much they loved me, were not good parents).
Obesity in children has just as much merit for bringing the qualifications of parents into question as the other items that you outlined. It is another form of neglecting the actual needs of your child. And I agree with the other items that you mentioned as well, but, as you said, this is a post about diet, which is why that is the point that I spoke to.
I've never stated or implied that parents should have to take a test before having children. I expressed a desire for people to be aware of their life situation before deciding that they can bare the stresses of raising a child. My point, what I would like people to take away from my comments are that they should at least THINK about where they are at in life before they decide to have children. To assess whether or not they are capable of being that selfless. Perhaps I don't honestly believe that people will, but I can still try and put that thought in their minds.
I also never said that they were not LOVING parents. I just said that they were not capable parents. You can love the shit out of something and still be completely unable to properly care for it.
176
@ 174, as far as whether those kids are getting all their vitamins and minerals (which was what I meant), I should mention that children's vitamins are quite widely consumed these days - hey, they taste just like candy! I agree that that's not ideal, but it's what I had in mind, not necessarily that their diets were following the food pyramid (their obesity alone is pretty good proof that they aren't eating balanced diets).
As far as the parenting goes, my point is that people generally do the best with the tools they have. If they never learned proper nutrition, I have a hard time blaming them for not doing a better job. And it's not just the obese or even simply overweight people in America who don't understand proper nutrition, or else fad diets would never happen here. So that's why I disagree with using a child's obesity as a measure of the parents' qualification. After all, there's a hell of a lot more that goes into rearing children than feeding them balanced meals free of junk food. I think the parent who raises a fat kid who is also confident, intellectually curious, and is kind and respectful is much better than the one who raises a physically fit but is also neurotic, selfish, inconsiderate, uneducated and proud of it, and so on.
You have to judge individuals individually. I know Dan loves his son, but I bet if we could follow him into his home most of us would find something objectionable that he does in bringing him up. I see things I find objectionable in other parents all the time and I bet others would have issues with some of the choices I make. Nobody is perfect, so everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt.
As far as the parenting goes, my point is that people generally do the best with the tools they have. If they never learned proper nutrition, I have a hard time blaming them for not doing a better job. And it's not just the obese or even simply overweight people in America who don't understand proper nutrition, or else fad diets would never happen here. So that's why I disagree with using a child's obesity as a measure of the parents' qualification. After all, there's a hell of a lot more that goes into rearing children than feeding them balanced meals free of junk food. I think the parent who raises a fat kid who is also confident, intellectually curious, and is kind and respectful is much better than the one who raises a physically fit but is also neurotic, selfish, inconsiderate, uneducated and proud of it, and so on.
You have to judge individuals individually. I know Dan loves his son, but I bet if we could follow him into his home most of us would find something objectionable that he does in bringing him up. I see things I find objectionable in other parents all the time and I bet others would have issues with some of the choices I make. Nobody is perfect, so everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt.
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@176
I totally see your points, thank you for the clarification. As far as the overarching theme of your argument, I agree with you. I do believe that even the best of intentions and even the most loving of parents can make mistakes that have far more negative effects than they could ever possibly realize. Diet and exercise goes a very long way towards stabilizing mood and health and just having a better overall well being and sense of confidence instilled in your child. I have a young nephew who weighs more than I do (I am no longer overweight) and is several inches shorter than I am. He is angry and teased constantly. He once grabbed at the fat of his belly and said "I just wish I could get rid of this." It was extremely depressing, especially knowing that feeling. When I was young I would pray that I would wake up the next day and just be skinny. At such a young age we don't have the ability to see why we are that way, to know that it is because of the food that we are given and the lack of exercise in our lives. As we get older we wonder how our parents ever could have let us eat like that or get so big. I am lucky enough to be a strong enough person that I first learned to love and accept myself and then learned that praying doesn't get you what need, but action does. I apologize if my original post felt overly judgmental, personal experience spurs passionate speech.
I agree with this specifically whole heartedly:
"You have to judge individuals individually." There are always individual circumstances and to error is human, and our children learn from our mistakes as we do and they also learn to take responsibility and to apologize (when necessary) from us. If we don't take responsibility, if we just give everyone the benefit of the doubt, than things cannot change. But if we (or perhaps more specifically I) don't look to the right places for that change, than things cannot change as well.
I can appreciate your empathy and compassion and can learn to articulate my arguments in a less judgmental way.
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I totally see your points, thank you for the clarification. As far as the overarching theme of your argument, I agree with you. I do believe that even the best of intentions and even the most loving of parents can make mistakes that have far more negative effects than they could ever possibly realize. Diet and exercise goes a very long way towards stabilizing mood and health and just having a better overall well being and sense of confidence instilled in your child. I have a young nephew who weighs more than I do (I am no longer overweight) and is several inches shorter than I am. He is angry and teased constantly. He once grabbed at the fat of his belly and said "I just wish I could get rid of this." It was extremely depressing, especially knowing that feeling. When I was young I would pray that I would wake up the next day and just be skinny. At such a young age we don't have the ability to see why we are that way, to know that it is because of the food that we are given and the lack of exercise in our lives. As we get older we wonder how our parents ever could have let us eat like that or get so big. I am lucky enough to be a strong enough person that I first learned to love and accept myself and then learned that praying doesn't get you what need, but action does. I apologize if my original post felt overly judgmental, personal experience spurs passionate speech.
I agree with this specifically whole heartedly:
"You have to judge individuals individually." There are always individual circumstances and to error is human, and our children learn from our mistakes as we do and they also learn to take responsibility and to apologize (when necessary) from us. If we don't take responsibility, if we just give everyone the benefit of the doubt, than things cannot change. But if we (or perhaps more specifically I) don't look to the right places for that change, than things cannot change as well.
I can appreciate your empathy and compassion and can learn to articulate my arguments in a less judgmental way.
178
Rob--
Which exactly of the facts I have mentioned do you dispute? Is easy to just say people are making things up when they are asking you to look at events and dispute the obvious conclusions, pretending to be to dense to see how inescapable they are. It's much harder to look at the sort of unbiased pictured of Dan Savage I've presented and find one point-- one-- where there are not multiple examples to prove it. His current cover article on white white gay men hate Obama for The Advocate, for example, is not quite as irresponsible as this. Given, however, the extent of the pain and the damage he caused with his "I don't owe no black folks nothin" Prop 8 rant, someone who cared about the issue he writes about more than his own notoriety would never have considered writing it.
Which exactly of the facts I have mentioned do you dispute? Is easy to just say people are making things up when they are asking you to look at events and dispute the obvious conclusions, pretending to be to dense to see how inescapable they are. It's much harder to look at the sort of unbiased pictured of Dan Savage I've presented and find one point-- one-- where there are not multiple examples to prove it. His current cover article on white white gay men hate Obama for The Advocate, for example, is not quite as irresponsible as this. Given, however, the extent of the pain and the damage he caused with his "I don't owe no black folks nothin" Prop 8 rant, someone who cared about the issue he writes about more than his own notoriety would never have considered writing it.
179
Perhaps, just perhaps, some do not reach the same conclusion, and therefore dispute your opinion, Stace. And, perhaps, in presenting your opinion, you comments are interpreted with a bias and an agenda that you bring to the table. Your opinion is valid, but so are the opinions of those who disagree with your interpretation of what you deem obvious. It's all part of the beauty of individual differences.
180
Perhaps, Kim. If that were the case, it would then be possible for any of the people who have taken me to task for what I've said to point out any alternative reading. I don't disagree that the opinions of those who disagree might be valid, but I have yet to see any support for the idea that Dan is not a self-promoting prick who has made a career out of irresponsible, dangerous stunts.
181
(Applauds this "Lee" commentator.)
I think some people just don't understand "irony", "sarcasm", "hyperbole" or "understatement".
Or perhaps they don't understand the part where Dan says "Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying people should stop using condoms". Or maybe they didn't bother reading that far. Or maybe they're intellectually dishonest douchebags who will go to any lengths to distort facts and make a point.
I think some people just don't understand "irony", "sarcasm", "hyperbole" or "understatement".
Or perhaps they don't understand the part where Dan says "Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying people should stop using condoms". Or maybe they didn't bother reading that far. Or maybe they're intellectually dishonest douchebags who will go to any lengths to distort facts and make a point.
182
Not if they don't deem your argument solid or evidence conclusive, Stace. If they don't reach the same conclusion, you believe to be obvious, when reading the example you provide, why should they need to find another to refute you? The burden lies on you to prove that Savage is nothing more than a self promoting prick, and alone is responsible for all the evils you wish to lay at his feet.
183
YTAH:
I agree that a series, intelligent reading of the article shows that it is an attempt to state sensible things as though they were outrageous rhetoric. Unfortunately, Dan does not write for the sort of rarified audience that makes that type of rhetoric responsible. People read this and saw something they were dying to see: "AIDS isn't that big a deal."
Give the people what they want, and you get to be a big star.
I can understand how you would have trouble understanding if you were not around to see how the discussion around condom use changed as a result of this article. And, frankly public discourse has changed enough that you may not be old enough to understand that people who were still mourning MANY (for those a bit older than us, most) of their friends did not find their lives a hilarious topic for satire. I am a year or two older or younger than Dan, depending on which version of his bio you believe. It was in 1996 that I learned a close friend in high school had been infected very young (he thought was fourteen) and had exposed most of his high school boyfriends, many of my high school friends. He was dead by the time this column appeared. You may believe that I am not making this up if you look at this article:
http://archives.dailyuw.com/1997/112497/…
Kim, if people don't believe what I say is worthy of consideration, wouldn't it make more sense to simply ignore it? If people are going to engage with me, shouldn't they bother to engage with the content of what I am writing rather than sticking to simple ad hominem attacks? I'm not complaining-- it's very easy to build off the level of critique I am getting to say the things I want to say.
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I agree that a series, intelligent reading of the article shows that it is an attempt to state sensible things as though they were outrageous rhetoric. Unfortunately, Dan does not write for the sort of rarified audience that makes that type of rhetoric responsible. People read this and saw something they were dying to see: "AIDS isn't that big a deal."
Give the people what they want, and you get to be a big star.
I can understand how you would have trouble understanding if you were not around to see how the discussion around condom use changed as a result of this article. And, frankly public discourse has changed enough that you may not be old enough to understand that people who were still mourning MANY (for those a bit older than us, most) of their friends did not find their lives a hilarious topic for satire. I am a year or two older or younger than Dan, depending on which version of his bio you believe. It was in 1996 that I learned a close friend in high school had been infected very young (he thought was fourteen) and had exposed most of his high school boyfriends, many of my high school friends. He was dead by the time this column appeared. You may believe that I am not making this up if you look at this article:
http://archives.dailyuw.com/1997/112497/…
Kim, if people don't believe what I say is worthy of consideration, wouldn't it make more sense to simply ignore it? If people are going to engage with me, shouldn't they bother to engage with the content of what I am writing rather than sticking to simple ad hominem attacks? I'm not complaining-- it's very easy to build off the level of critique I am getting to say the things I want to say.
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WHAT AN AMAZING COMMENT THREAD! I never use caps but couldn't help it - parenting and fat and gay lifestyle and all manner of side comments and sub-issues. I didn't see this the first time and just clicked over when I saw it on the top of the comment list. I just scanned after awhile and I'm still literally exhausted and comment-less. Way to go SLOG.
185
Sorry to hear about your friend, Stace. Thank you for the link as well.
At present, I can't agree that Savage encouraged people to stop having safe sex. I've read it over and over (from the Village Voice and pgs 292-298 in his book), and don't come to the same conclusion. A few quotes in particular stand out.
"Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying people should stop using condoms".
"The crisis is over, even while the epidemic continues."
"Finally, it is important to emphasize that these are new drugs. They may yet fail. People should not construe them as "permission" to get infected: the best clinical trials have failure rates of 10 percent -- better to be uninfected that face those odds."
I don't minimize the grief of losing a loved one, our family has been touched by AIDS. It's a tragedy. Still, it's my opinion that its wrong to lay this all at Savage's feet, just because of that article or because after two years into his relationship he stopped using condoms. At some point we all have to stop and acknowledge our own personal responsibility, we have to own the choices we make for ourselves, and the risks we expose our self to. You can argue that Savage's opinion didn't help the safe sex discussion, even though he said people should still use condoms, and that he would resume using condoms if his relationship with Miller ended (Just as I would resume using condoms if my relationship ended), but I don't think you can fairly argue that it's all Savage's fault when people don't use condoms.
Personal responsibility is a big burden, but we all must own it.
At present, I can't agree that Savage encouraged people to stop having safe sex. I've read it over and over (from the Village Voice and pgs 292-298 in his book), and don't come to the same conclusion. A few quotes in particular stand out.
"Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying people should stop using condoms".
"The crisis is over, even while the epidemic continues."
"Finally, it is important to emphasize that these are new drugs. They may yet fail. People should not construe them as "permission" to get infected: the best clinical trials have failure rates of 10 percent -- better to be uninfected that face those odds."
I don't minimize the grief of losing a loved one, our family has been touched by AIDS. It's a tragedy. Still, it's my opinion that its wrong to lay this all at Savage's feet, just because of that article or because after two years into his relationship he stopped using condoms. At some point we all have to stop and acknowledge our own personal responsibility, we have to own the choices we make for ourselves, and the risks we expose our self to. You can argue that Savage's opinion didn't help the safe sex discussion, even though he said people should still use condoms, and that he would resume using condoms if his relationship with Miller ended (Just as I would resume using condoms if my relationship ended), but I don't think you can fairly argue that it's all Savage's fault when people don't use condoms.
Personal responsibility is a big burden, but we all must own it.
186
Oh, Kim--
Dan and I were in high school at the same time. We were both kids ourselves when this other kid, a year younger than me probably two years younger than Dan met that Dick of Death. Bye, Dean, by the way. I miss you.
Anyway, you seem to think I might somehow blame Dan for Dean's death. I don't, (but now I have gone so far down the road of alliteration-- oh, good. I'm back) I do think that he knew a lot of other kids like Dean. We all did then. And that he should have valued their lives more and his own fame less when he built his house on their bones.
Dan and I were in high school at the same time. We were both kids ourselves when this other kid, a year younger than me probably two years younger than Dan met that Dick of Death. Bye, Dean, by the way. I miss you.
Anyway, you seem to think I might somehow blame Dan for Dean's death. I don't, (but now I have gone so far down the road of alliteration-- oh, good. I'm back) I do think that he knew a lot of other kids like Dean. We all did then. And that he should have valued their lives more and his own fame less when he built his house on their bones.
187
In order to put this tread back on topic. I've chosen to express my disagreement with Joan, and to rock the Choc. I dug out my mom's German's Chocolate Cake recipe, to celebrate the coming end of summer break and those getting married in Vermont. Tomorrow the kids and I will pay the piper and run an extra third of a mile, but tonight we eat cake!
190
#181.
This:
Pretty much spot on.
This:
Or maybe they're intellectually dishonest douchebags who will go to any lengths to distort facts and make a point.
Pretty much spot on.
192
#172
Thanks for the tip, Jade.
#183
What happened to all the fat people? (Off topic much?) Also, your argument conflates contiguity and causation: just because the debate on safe sex "changed after the article" doesn't mean the article changed the debate on safe sex. See how that works? It's called "logic". Try it sometime when you're trying to convince somebody of your point.
Thanks for the tip, Jade.
#183
What happened to all the fat people? (Off topic much?) Also, your argument conflates contiguity and causation: just because the debate on safe sex "changed after the article" doesn't mean the article changed the debate on safe sex. See how that works? It's called "logic". Try it sometime when you're trying to convince somebody of your point.
193
YTAH:
I am describing a historical event, not merely trying to make a logical argument. I have provided documentary evidence to support my contention. Talk to people who were working in HIV/AIDS in 1998 if you think I am wrong about the impact Dan made on how gay men talked about condoms.
I am describing a historical event, not merely trying to make a logical argument. I have provided documentary evidence to support my contention. Talk to people who were working in HIV/AIDS in 1998 if you think I am wrong about the impact Dan made on how gay men talked about condoms.
195
If my little girl eats like I do, she's get a good amount of vegetables and fruits, whole grains, lean protein, some sugar. If she eats like her dad, she's eat tons of bread (with margarine), some fruit, prefer white over whole grains, not a whole lot of vegetables, and eggs, cheese and lots of in-between mean snacking. Guess which parent is fat? From pictures of both of the parents at the same age she is, she takes after the slender one. I don't think it would be possible to make her fat. I want her to have a healthy relationship with food, with herself and her body, and this pertains to sexuality, overall health, and not engaging in disordered behaviors, bingeing OR starving OR purging.
196
#193: You're still missing the point, darling. This isn't a discussion of Dan's comments on AIDS, now is it? Try to focus, or find a more appropriate thread to harangue him with your "logic". (Oh, and the analysis of an "historical event" does require SOME measure of logic, at some point. You can interpret "history and "events" in many different ways - some sensible, and some not so much.)
197
My mom is a health/fitness nut who regularly craves and stocks the house with salad. I'm 22, and I still hate almost all vegetables. That's not to say she hasn't taught me healthy eating habits. She likes to say she "failed somehow" since I don't like them, but sometimes I really think I'm just not "wired" to enjoy veggies, especially greens. None of them taste even remotely good to me. (I do love fruit, though.) Just throwing out my rambly two cents.
198
I think a way to avoid "texture/sensitivity issues" is to feed kids real food from the start and not just a bunch of bland, smooshed up, pureed baby food, whether from a jar or made yourself.
Cut it into small enough pieces and most kids should be able to gum it to bits and swallow it, even with few teeth. Feed them whatever you are eating, right off your plate, get them used to real flavors and real textures. If they can't handle it or aren't interested, then they're not ready for it yet.
Many of the kids my wife came across in playgroups who were raised only on smooshed food were all sensitive and picky about eating real food as they got older.
My almost 4 year old has always eaten nearly everything we put in front of him, sure he rejects things from time to time but it's normal for kids to express choice and control, but to this day he will leave half eaten pizza on his plate so he can devour his salad. He was exclusively breastfed until over a year, we would offer solid food, he just wasn't interested.
My 11 month old on the other hand was quite insistent at 9 months that we give her some of that good stuff that we were having. After she mastered avocado and soft fruits like peach, her favorite food was asparagus. She started with small pieces, and eventually would take a whole stalk and just munch on it. With her only two bottom teeth she quickly learned how to scrape the good stuff off of artichoke leaves.
Keep an eye on them, but don't be afraid they're going to choke on anything bigger than a grain of rice, they may gag occasionally but that's a natural response when you're learning how to manipulate food around in the mouth. For a while we would gently squish blueberries, and we still cut grapes in half.
Our kitchen is full of healthy foods, lots of fresh veggies and fruits, seafood, dairy, mostly-homebaked mostly whole-wheat breads. The kids eat healthy because the parents eat healthy. Cake, cookies and ice cream are rare but not unheard of, only on special occasions as a TREAT. Sorry, but dairy is not the same as soda. Sugar in general should be avoided, but kids need fat to develop their brain. Cultured dairy is best, yogurt and cheese, and most kids like these. Sourdough breads often do not cause the same insulin/glucose response as regular white bread.
Things that are rejected should be offered gently again and again, but pushing anything is a bad idea. If you turn food into a power struggle, you and your kid will both lose.
"Hungry Monkey" by Matthew Amster-Burton (hilarious by the way) agrees with a lot of this (read the first 3 chapters at http://hungrymonkeybook.com)
As a bonus, this should all work whether your kids were born gay or straight.
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Cut it into small enough pieces and most kids should be able to gum it to bits and swallow it, even with few teeth. Feed them whatever you are eating, right off your plate, get them used to real flavors and real textures. If they can't handle it or aren't interested, then they're not ready for it yet.
Many of the kids my wife came across in playgroups who were raised only on smooshed food were all sensitive and picky about eating real food as they got older.
My almost 4 year old has always eaten nearly everything we put in front of him, sure he rejects things from time to time but it's normal for kids to express choice and control, but to this day he will leave half eaten pizza on his plate so he can devour his salad. He was exclusively breastfed until over a year, we would offer solid food, he just wasn't interested.
My 11 month old on the other hand was quite insistent at 9 months that we give her some of that good stuff that we were having. After she mastered avocado and soft fruits like peach, her favorite food was asparagus. She started with small pieces, and eventually would take a whole stalk and just munch on it. With her only two bottom teeth she quickly learned how to scrape the good stuff off of artichoke leaves.
Keep an eye on them, but don't be afraid they're going to choke on anything bigger than a grain of rice, they may gag occasionally but that's a natural response when you're learning how to manipulate food around in the mouth. For a while we would gently squish blueberries, and we still cut grapes in half.
Our kitchen is full of healthy foods, lots of fresh veggies and fruits, seafood, dairy, mostly-homebaked mostly whole-wheat breads. The kids eat healthy because the parents eat healthy. Cake, cookies and ice cream are rare but not unheard of, only on special occasions as a TREAT. Sorry, but dairy is not the same as soda. Sugar in general should be avoided, but kids need fat to develop their brain. Cultured dairy is best, yogurt and cheese, and most kids like these. Sourdough breads often do not cause the same insulin/glucose response as regular white bread.
Things that are rejected should be offered gently again and again, but pushing anything is a bad idea. If you turn food into a power struggle, you and your kid will both lose.
"Hungry Monkey" by Matthew Amster-Burton (hilarious by the way) agrees with a lot of this (read the first 3 chapters at http://hungrymonkeybook.com)
As a bonus, this should all work whether your kids were born gay or straight.
199
I think a way to avoid texture/sensitivity issues is to tell you kid when he/she complains, "Quit whining and eat your vegetables."
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