Slog
News & ArtsMonday, August 24, 2009
International The Historian
Posted by Charles Mudede on Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 8:36 AM
When I read this...
(BBC) Israel's prime minister has urged the Swedish government to condemn a Swedish newspaper article that claimed Israeli troops killed Palestinians for organs....I was reminded of the fact that Benjamin is the son of a noted historian, Benzion Netanyahu, whose area of research was medieval/Islamic Spain. But is the myth of "blood libels" the same as the myth of Israeli troops farming organs from Palestinians? Yes and no. Yes, because they likely share the same racist root; no, because the the periods of time (medieval Europe; the Middle East today) have radically different power relationships.Benjamin Netanyahu joins broad Israeli criticism of the Aftonbladet paper over the claims troops took organs to sell.
An Israeli official quoted him saying: "Statements in the Swedish press were outrageous. We are not expecting an apology - we expect condemnation."
Sweden has refused to condemn the article, citing freedom of expression.
But Mr Netanyahu reportedly compared the claims to medieval "blood libels", which alleged that Jews used the blood of Christian babies during religious ceremonies.
1
What has shocked me more about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is that Israel claims it can do no wrong and everything they do is justified no matter what. And that being critical of their actions is the same thing as claiming Hitler was justified.
I guess that Israel DID learn something from Nazi Germany after all.
I guess that Israel DID learn something from Nazi Germany after all.
2
I completely agree with Cato. Israel is getting away with anything, and if anyone says anything, they are instantly labeled antisemitic, i.e., "Israel has nukes, and should be treated the same as every country that has nukes." is usually answered with "Why do you hate Jews?"
3
1. Israel should be treated the same as every country. Countries like all the others in the Middle East, most of whom oppress minorities and all of whom oppress a large majority: women.
2. Israel is not getting away with "anything." Unless you think that being shelled in southern Israel by Hamas for a period of at least 6 years, with rockets which Hamas obtains through tunnels from Egypt, is getting away with anything.
3. Israel is not Netanyahu, any more than the US was George Bush, or Obama, or any leader. There is a great division in Israel regarding the territories, just as there was and is here re many national policies. I know many Israelis and American Jews who protest those policies; check out Rabbis for Human Rights which works for Palestinian rights in the West Bank. Nobody -- Israeli or American -- is calling them traitors.
4. Cato and Zoro, you are both jerks. Busy yourself with what's happening in Darfur. Stop with the Hitler BS.
2. Israel is not getting away with "anything." Unless you think that being shelled in southern Israel by Hamas for a period of at least 6 years, with rockets which Hamas obtains through tunnels from Egypt, is getting away with anything.
3. Israel is not Netanyahu, any more than the US was George Bush, or Obama, or any leader. There is a great division in Israel regarding the territories, just as there was and is here re many national policies. I know many Israelis and American Jews who protest those policies; check out Rabbis for Human Rights which works for Palestinian rights in the West Bank. Nobody -- Israeli or American -- is calling them traitors.
4. Cato and Zoro, you are both jerks. Busy yourself with what's happening in Darfur. Stop with the Hitler BS.
4
1. I can't help but be reminded of the old joke where Soviet Communists use slavery in the American South as a defense for any criticism of their country. You could go down the list of bad things that Muslim countries do, and you'd probably be right with most of them... but it doesn't absolve the Israeli government of certain responsibilities to folks in the Occupied Territories.
2. Sure! Israel isn't getting away with building a "security fence" that favors settlers that steal land away from Palestinians over some hard-working folks that are actually trying to make a living in the West Bank.
3. The Palestinians are not Hamas, but apparently are treated as such by you. And given that Israeli politics tends to be shaped by whackjob political parties that seem intent on stealing Palestinian land and referring to Palestinians as a "cancer" and 'lice", (See http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1010/p06s0… for a wonderful example.)
4. It's downright amusing that you pretty much just proved Cato and Zoro's thesis...
2. Sure! Israel isn't getting away with building a "security fence" that favors settlers that steal land away from Palestinians over some hard-working folks that are actually trying to make a living in the West Bank.
3. The Palestinians are not Hamas, but apparently are treated as such by you. And given that Israeli politics tends to be shaped by whackjob political parties that seem intent on stealing Palestinian land and referring to Palestinians as a "cancer" and 'lice", (See http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1010/p06s0… for a wonderful example.)
4. It's downright amusing that you pretty much just proved Cato and Zoro's thesis...
5
Radically different power relationships indeed. The Israelis obviously countenance systematic attrocities against palestinians it's not so farfetched to think they'd allow or even encourage this.
6
the assertion that jews use gentile baby blood didn't stop in medieval europe. it is a notion still passed on today. i was taught it growing up in midwestern america. i don't think this fact is a fair basis to stop the presses, but the fact is that the newspaper article did give the israelies something real to latch onto. they chinked their own armor.
7
it wouldn't hurt for Sweden to make a statement deploring this ridiculous story. this will be taken as fact in a large part of the muslim world. it does not advance the cause of peace or rationality - what little there remains of it in I/P relations.
8
@6 I was actually asked at an interfaith seder when I was in my teens, by one of the christian kids, if Jews used urine to make matzah (I'd never heard that one before). I was so stunned that all I could manage was a 'no' and a few seconds of agonizingly insecure silence. Apparently this shit really does still make the rounds.
9
Iffy translation from the original Swedish: http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/02726….
Here's how the situation reads to me: Israelis take Palestinian victims for medical treatment/ processing/autopsy. Because of the volatile and dangerous situation that returning a person or body to their family, they use military personnel and cut power to the area to which they are returning the person or body. Because there is no trust between these people, because the families don't know what has been happening because of a lack of communication and trust, when a Swedish journalist learns of illegal organ harvesting between the US and Israel, he "connect the dots" with things he witnessed 20 years ago - Of course! The mysterious wounds and stitches on their bodies is from organ harvesting! Because the military drops them off, it's the IDF stealing organs! And because they come when there is no power, they are trying to hide their actions!
I call bullshit on this Swede. The Israelis have done horrible things to Palestinians, but so have the Syrians, the Egyptians, the Jordanians, etc., and if I've learned anything about Jews while working in a synagogue, it's that they truly believe in a sacred duty to the healing the ailing and caring for the dead - regardless of their ethnicity or beliefs.
Here's how the situation reads to me: Israelis take Palestinian victims for medical treatment/ processing/autopsy. Because of the volatile and dangerous situation that returning a person or body to their family, they use military personnel and cut power to the area to which they are returning the person or body. Because there is no trust between these people, because the families don't know what has been happening because of a lack of communication and trust, when a Swedish journalist learns of illegal organ harvesting between the US and Israel, he "connect the dots" with things he witnessed 20 years ago - Of course! The mysterious wounds and stitches on their bodies is from organ harvesting! Because the military drops them off, it's the IDF stealing organs! And because they come when there is no power, they are trying to hide their actions!
I call bullshit on this Swede. The Israelis have done horrible things to Palestinians, but so have the Syrians, the Egyptians, the Jordanians, etc., and if I've learned anything about Jews while working in a synagogue, it's that they truly believe in a sacred duty to the healing the ailing and caring for the dead - regardless of their ethnicity or beliefs.
11
Why is this article being directly associated with the past actions of Israel? I would urge each of you to remember that Israel, Palestine, and heck, the rest of the world, are an ever-evolving amalgamation of change.
Since Israel is the dominant force in Israel and the Palestinian territories, they must take the good with the bad. This involves harebrained stories, honest depictions of brutality, as well as the good that it does for the world (though I can't think of any--can I blame the media?). Having Rabbis for Human Rights doesn't prevent Israel from doing wrong just the same as having bad policies towards Palestinians prevent Israel from ever doing right.
Since Israel is the dominant force in Israel and the Palestinian territories, they must take the good with the bad. This involves harebrained stories, honest depictions of brutality, as well as the good that it does for the world (though I can't think of any--can I blame the media?). Having Rabbis for Human Rights doesn't prevent Israel from doing wrong just the same as having bad policies towards Palestinians prevent Israel from ever doing right.
13
JUST LIKE SOFT RACIST SEATTLE TO IGNORE ORIGINAL MISDEED - BLOOD LIBEL.
BEARS STRIKING RESEMBLANCE TO CLAIMS OF BABY-EATIN' JEWS. DUNT GIT ME WRONG, LUV TO EAT BABES. BUT USE IZ AS EVIL PROPAGANDA TO DISTANCE + ALIENATE JEW. TUFF GO THOUGH: JEW HAZ UZI, JEW DONT NEED U. TRY IT GENTILE/ DAREZ U.
BEARS STRIKING RESEMBLANCE TO CLAIMS OF BABY-EATIN' JEWS. DUNT GIT ME WRONG, LUV TO EAT BABES. BUT USE IZ AS EVIL PROPAGANDA TO DISTANCE + ALIENATE JEW. TUFF GO THOUGH: JEW HAZ UZI, JEW DONT NEED U. TRY IT GENTILE/ DAREZ U.
14
@11 I agree with you in principle. Any stable, prosperous state that posits itself as a modern democracy must act with restraint and caution wrt less powerful and wealthy states (or non-states, as the case may be). But in this case, you really have to look at the situation in a broader context that includes the US as an Israeli ally and the entire Arab League as palestinian allies.
All questions of pre-1967 and pre-1948 boundaries aside, Israel will not stop being a militaristic nation until it stops receiving mortar and rocket shots (paid for by sympathetic surrounding Arab nations) from inside gaza etc., and by extension, there will be Palestinian civilian deaths as long as there are terrorists firing rockets at Israel from inside Palestinian cities.
On the other side, of course, Palestinians will never feel safe until they have definite, logical boundaries and are allowed to set up a state of their own, and by extension, they will continue to try to keep the ultranationalist settlers from encroaching any further on their territory.
Both sides of this issue are beholden to reckless idealogues (mortar-firing Palestinian Hamas partisans and quiverfull-reminiscent expansive Israeli settlers) who will accept no less than total concession by the other, and funded by absentee patrons (the US and the Arab League), and both are pursuing mutually destructive strategies.
In conclusion, @1,2,4 unless you're actively lobbying for reconciliation in Palestine/Israel, you're as bad as/worse than the most hawkish US senator, fundamentalist Saudi prince, off-his-nutter settler or Hamas bomber, regardless of how whiny you think Israelis are.
All questions of pre-1967 and pre-1948 boundaries aside, Israel will not stop being a militaristic nation until it stops receiving mortar and rocket shots (paid for by sympathetic surrounding Arab nations) from inside gaza etc., and by extension, there will be Palestinian civilian deaths as long as there are terrorists firing rockets at Israel from inside Palestinian cities.
On the other side, of course, Palestinians will never feel safe until they have definite, logical boundaries and are allowed to set up a state of their own, and by extension, they will continue to try to keep the ultranationalist settlers from encroaching any further on their territory.
Both sides of this issue are beholden to reckless idealogues (mortar-firing Palestinian Hamas partisans and quiverfull-reminiscent expansive Israeli settlers) who will accept no less than total concession by the other, and funded by absentee patrons (the US and the Arab League), and both are pursuing mutually destructive strategies.
In conclusion, @1,2,4 unless you're actively lobbying for reconciliation in Palestine/Israel, you're as bad as/worse than the most hawkish US senator, fundamentalist Saudi prince, off-his-nutter settler or Hamas bomber, regardless of how whiny you think Israelis are.
16
@14 Personally, I don't think that the end of mortar and rocket shots from Palestinians will stop any military actions on Israel's behalf. I think what they really want is all the Palestinians to leave the "Israel" (however Israeli's define it). I'm guessing it all comes down to money--like every other conflict--and water, which is more valuable than money. It's definitely interesting to see how this will turn out!
17
@15: If I thought God accepted prayers (unfortunately most Jews don't so believe), I would so pray.
There is no solution, period, since Israel isn't going to leave the area. This isn't Jew v. Arab; it's not religious. It's not even territorial. It's the Middle Eastern countries/tribes wanting the "West" (and they consider Israel the West, even though the majority of Israel is now Sephardi Jews originally from Middle Eastern countries who had to leave their countries in 1948. That's only exacerbated by the rise of fundamentalist Islam, which is a rabidly anti-Western religion.
No solution. None.
There is no solution, period, since Israel isn't going to leave the area. This isn't Jew v. Arab; it's not religious. It's not even territorial. It's the Middle Eastern countries/tribes wanting the "West" (and they consider Israel the West, even though the majority of Israel is now Sephardi Jews originally from Middle Eastern countries who had to leave their countries in 1948. That's only exacerbated by the rise of fundamentalist Islam, which is a rabidly anti-Western religion.
No solution. None.
19
#16
if i'm thinking what i think your thinking then i agree
slavery ended because it lost it's economic value...the colonys were abandoned only after the costs outweighed the benifets and the soviet union collapsed because it wasint able to keep up with the expensive arms race...the more the palastinians do what they can no matter how pathetic ( extremly inaccurate DIY rockets and desperate me who strap some dynomite to themselves vs. fighter bomber jets,tanks,apaches,uav's digitized commandos a well funded military/industrial/media complex). The more expensive the bill will be for the israels and the more likely they'll cut there losses and make at least some conccesions
if i'm thinking what i think your thinking then i agree
slavery ended because it lost it's economic value...the colonys were abandoned only after the costs outweighed the benifets and the soviet union collapsed because it wasint able to keep up with the expensive arms race...the more the palastinians do what they can no matter how pathetic ( extremly inaccurate DIY rockets and desperate me who strap some dynomite to themselves vs. fighter bomber jets,tanks,apaches,uav's digitized commandos a well funded military/industrial/media complex). The more expensive the bill will be for the israels and the more likely they'll cut there losses and make at least some conccesions
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