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News & ArtsThursday, August 20, 2009
Sports When In Doubt...
Posted by Charles Mudede on Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 8:44 AM
This is from the BBC:
The family of the new 800m world champion, South African Caster Semenya, has insisted she is a woman.She has been dogged by controversy about her gender and the International Association of Athletics Federations has asked her to take a gender test.
"I know she's a woman — I raised her myself," the 18-year-old's grandmother told South Africa's Times newspaper.
This is Caster Semenya:
1
You know a sport is popular when they accuse a female athlete of being a man.
It's happened in Tennis and the LPGA, so it looks like women's track and field is moving up in the world finally after so many decades of being a stultifying and uninteresting sport with only marginal support.
It's happened in Tennis and the LPGA, so it looks like women's track and field is moving up in the world finally after so many decades of being a stultifying and uninteresting sport with only marginal support.
6
It seems possible she might be intersex. That doesn't mean she shouldn't be able to compete but it does call into question the rules we have around gender and athletic competition.
If she turns out to have XY chromosomes, but has been raised as an identifies as a woman, what's the "fair" solution?
If she turns out to have XY chromosomes, but has been raised as an identifies as a woman, what's the "fair" solution?
8
so, do they test everyone who does really well, or are they just singling her out for looking too butch?
9
Wow. She must be terribly good at her sport for them to give her such "praise".
As for Lady GaGa- now THAT, folks, is a mystery.
http://www.sxxxy.org/lady_gaga_penis.jpg
http://www.drunkenstepfather.com/cms/ul/…
As for Lady GaGa- now THAT, folks, is a mystery.
http://www.sxxxy.org/lady_gaga_penis.jpg
http://www.drunkenstepfather.com/cms/ul/…
10
@ 8 I think its a combo. After all, she isn't running track with lipstick, high cheekbones, and bouncing jugs- so she must be a man.
14
@10 she also beat the rest of the field by 2 seconds in a world-best time for this year, and she's a previous unknown - no time for the gender test to get back before her victory. But once they do a full karyotype test and most likely find out she's XY but CAIS (more info on gender testing and androgen insensitivity here) she'll be 'qualified' to race as a woman, and hopefully, she won't have to deal with this crap after that point.
15
@6: I've wondered whether a weight category, a la boxing, would be fairer. After all, women keep trying to play in men's leagues and the argument is that they should be able to if they can play at the same skill level (as well as speed, etc.). Weight class would help level the physical inequalities that affect most average men and women.
16
The really crappy part was the timing - from another BBC article:
"Former Olympic heptathlon gold medallist Denise Lewis described the treatment of Semenya as 'absolutely dreadful'.
'It's awful she had to compete with this hanging over her head,' said Lewis. 'It should have been sorted out much, much sooner than this.' "
"Former Olympic heptathlon gold medallist Denise Lewis described the treatment of Semenya as 'absolutely dreadful'.
'It's awful she had to compete with this hanging over her head,' said Lewis. 'It should have been sorted out much, much sooner than this.' "
18
Depending on your perspective on what counts, intersex is shockingly common:
http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency
I like @15's idea a lot. I'm sure there would be kinks to work out, but I think it would make for much more interesting sport.
http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency
I like @15's idea a lot. I'm sure there would be kinks to work out, but I think it would make for much more interesting sport.
19
"Controversy about her gender"? "A gender test"?
There is no "gender" test, or controversy about her gender. She's clearly a woman, and a perfectly valid "gender test" is simply asking, "Are you a guy or a girl?"
The controversy is over her sex, and she was clearly asked to submit to a sex test. Bah, BBC. Welcome to 2009.
There is no "gender" test, or controversy about her gender. She's clearly a woman, and a perfectly valid "gender test" is simply asking, "Are you a guy or a girl?"
The controversy is over her sex, and she was clearly asked to submit to a sex test. Bah, BBC. Welcome to 2009.
20
are there other conditions that could cause her lack of body fat? she's totes buff, but why does that mean she must be XY?
21
Intersex is only "shockingly common" because our culture promulgates the idea that biological sex is a binary. In fact, it is a continumm ..
And gender is performative - we assess gender on cues like clothing, walk, decoration, et al.
And gender is performative - we assess gender on cues like clothing, walk, decoration, et al.
22
Time to do away with sexist gender barriers and run women and men together on equal terms. Of course, that means no woman will win a competition outside of rhythmic gymnastics and perhaps deep diving.
24
@14: That was a fascinating website. Thank you so much for including it. I'd never thought about any of this before.
@9: There is an easy explanation for Lady Gaga: she has an obvious case of polterwang.
@9: There is an easy explanation for Lady Gaga: she has an obvious case of polterwang.
25
I am intersexed myself (PAIS- Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) and my heart goes out to this woman. I applaud a lot of the comments on this thread that recognize the continuum of sex that exists outside society's expectations of a binary system. There have already been some great links on here and it is refreshing to see understanding of intersex conditions continue to grow (although there is still much to do!).
It is a shame that our society tries to fit everyone into very small very unreasonable boxes. I feel terrible that such a very personal thing like this (if it even turns out that she is intersex) is being broadcast so loudly and in such a negative light and hope it at least serves to educate people.
Her accomplishments are amazing and should be the subject of the publicity, not her genetics -- we are all a lot more than the sum of our DNA.
It is a shame that our society tries to fit everyone into very small very unreasonable boxes. I feel terrible that such a very personal thing like this (if it even turns out that she is intersex) is being broadcast so loudly and in such a negative light and hope it at least serves to educate people.
Her accomplishments are amazing and should be the subject of the publicity, not her genetics -- we are all a lot more than the sum of our DNA.
26
@22 in 1992 a woman won the mixed skeet shooting competition in the Olympics. In 1996 the grossly sexist governing board made the competition men-only. It wasn't until 2000 that they added the women's event.
27
i don't know...chick is quite mannish.
i'd want to go to the lab results for this one, myself.
also, while you're at it: check Venus and Serena Willams (the guns on those "girls" are INSANE!), and check that man-lookin' lady who was on the US Women's Softball Olympic Team...the Hispanic one...don't tell me ANYONE who saw that "chick" didn't think it was a dude at first.
i'd want to go to the lab results for this one, myself.
also, while you're at it: check Venus and Serena Willams (the guns on those "girls" are INSANE!), and check that man-lookin' lady who was on the US Women's Softball Olympic Team...the Hispanic one...don't tell me ANYONE who saw that "chick" didn't think it was a dude at first.
29
@25: the problem is that if she's intersex, she may be operating with advantages that women who are not intersex don't have. Her accomplishments may be amazing for a woman--how does her time compare to a man's time? (I just looked--this year's Men's US Champion ran it in 1:45.86, with no mention of that being a world record time--Caster Semenya ran it in 1:55.45, 2 seconds faster than any of the other women she was competing against).
If you are going to divide these things by men/women, you have to be able to decide who is male and who is female, and that will always be somewhat arbitrary, given the complicated genetics involved. The way to make it *really* fair is to have everyone compete with each other without sex being a consideration.
If you are going to divide these things by men/women, you have to be able to decide who is male and who is female, and that will always be somewhat arbitrary, given the complicated genetics involved. The way to make it *really* fair is to have everyone compete with each other without sex being a consideration.
30
@14, devilsmoke: androgen insensitivity syndrome results in very feminine looking individuals because they're *insensitive to androgens.* androgens virilize.
there are a number of other conditions that can result in primary female sex characteristics (vaginal opening, lack of penis or lack of obvious penis) without secondary female sex characteristics (breasts, widening of the pelvis), which is where she's getting slammed.
but i dunno, she looks female to me, irrespective of any genetic jiggery-pokery.
there are a number of other conditions that can result in primary female sex characteristics (vaginal opening, lack of penis or lack of obvious penis) without secondary female sex characteristics (breasts, widening of the pelvis), which is where she's getting slammed.
but i dunno, she looks female to me, irrespective of any genetic jiggery-pokery.
31
@20,
I don't know about the lack of body fat, but there are some women who naturally have hormone imbalances and produce too much testosterone. That could explain why she's so buff.
I don't know about the lack of body fat, but there are some women who naturally have hormone imbalances and produce too much testosterone. That could explain why she's so buff.
34
Men are better at all sports. You have to divide them by gender or the women consistently lose and get bitchy.
35
@34: Since when do they need to lose before they get bitchy? I thought that was their natural state.
36
So someone's born with many traits we culturally associate with men, but is not a man? Some are born with traits that give them the ability to run really, really fast, and others are not. The rationale to penalize (INTENDED!... erm, sorry) an athlete over this is really fuzzy.
This should have been sorted out beforehand, not on the podium.
This should have been sorted out beforehand, not on the podium.
39
why no body fat? because she is an 18 year athlete? have you ever seen pro athletes? can you see the other women who are in the picture?
because she won by 2 seconds? yes, no one has ever come along who was significantly better than other athletes in their field.
regarding the other pictures as "better" evidence? those are just more pictures of a woman, a black woman, who isn't "compensating" for her athleticism with longs nails and big hair.
she isn't conventionally pretty or interested in being conventionally feminine, AND she's better than you, so she must be a man or have a "condition"? do you think that all intersexed people are world class athletes?
the press/conversation around this a horrifying ad hoc of racist sexism, and homophobia. a bunch of clowns speaking as authorities when nearly everything they say betrays their ignorance about sex, gender, biology, and genetics, let alone language.
because she won by 2 seconds? yes, no one has ever come along who was significantly better than other athletes in their field.
regarding the other pictures as "better" evidence? those are just more pictures of a woman, a black woman, who isn't "compensating" for her athleticism with longs nails and big hair.
she isn't conventionally pretty or interested in being conventionally feminine, AND she's better than you, so she must be a man or have a "condition"? do you think that all intersexed people are world class athletes?
the press/conversation around this a horrifying ad hoc of racist sexism, and homophobia. a bunch of clowns speaking as authorities when nearly everything they say betrays their ignorance about sex, gender, biology, and genetics, let alone language.
40
@ 39, sports is big business, even track and field. When someone comes along and completely obliterates a record like this, it's fair to ask if some kind of cheating (including passing a man off as a woman) is going on. Not everything is about your pet isms.
41
@40 you are so smart, it's like someone who can read but not understand!
i didn't say that testing athletes whose performance is unique is wrong. i said the conversation around this is disgusting, and says more about the stupid of the speakers, than it does Semenya, sex, gender, biology, or genetics.
but nice try, i knew someone would think that trashing an african lesbian with athletic skill couldn't possibly be infused with bigotry, and would take the chance to blame me for suggesting it. thanks for being the knob who proved it so, i feel even smarter!
i didn't say that testing athletes whose performance is unique is wrong. i said the conversation around this is disgusting, and says more about the stupid of the speakers, than it does Semenya, sex, gender, biology, or genetics.
but nice try, i knew someone would think that trashing an african lesbian with athletic skill couldn't possibly be infused with bigotry, and would take the chance to blame me for suggesting it. thanks for being the knob who proved it so, i feel even smarter!
44
I find it almost. . . almost funny that when an exceptional female athlete comes along. . . they need to find out what makes her exceptional and then perhaps disqualify her.
You know i bet if they "tested" Usain Bolt, they find plenty that made him an exceptional man. . . not like any other.
I guess they should take his medal and records away because he has a natural biological advantage over others.
You know i bet if they "tested" Usain Bolt, they find plenty that made him an exceptional man. . . not like any other.
I guess they should take his medal and records away because he has a natural biological advantage over others.
45
#44, natural biological advantage is one thing, biological advantage *that would disqualify you from whatever competitive class you entered* is quite another.
If you are trying to challenge how the competitive classes in sporting events are structured and defined, ok, but you'll probably want to reframe your argument. The possibility that someone that weighs 190 is competing in a 170-185 weight class (analogous to the Semenya issue) is a bit more intriguing than concern that someone that weighs 300 is competing in the 205+ weight class (analogous to your Bolt example), which isn't really much of a concern at all.
If you are trying to challenge how the competitive classes in sporting events are structured and defined, ok, but you'll probably want to reframe your argument. The possibility that someone that weighs 190 is competing in a 170-185 weight class (analogous to the Semenya issue) is a bit more intriguing than concern that someone that weighs 300 is competing in the 205+ weight class (analogous to your Bolt example), which isn't really much of a concern at all.
46
...and don't get me wrong, I'm not naysaying your concern over how the competitive classes are defined. That is, in fact, the part of this debacle that's actually interesting. Whether she is XX or XY w/ CAIS is actually pretty boring. Assuming she turns out to be something like XY w/ CAIS, the question of what class she is allowed to compete in is a much more interesting one, particularly if the divisions aren't particularly well defined with respect to known intersexual conditions.
47
@42 wow, i'm glad you understand now. i only had to say it twice,
from @39 the press/conversation around this a horrifying ad hoc of racist sexism, and homophobia. a bunch of clowns speaking as authorities when nearly everything they say betrays their ignorance about sex, gender, biology, and genetics, let alone language.
from @39 the press/conversation around this a horrifying ad hoc of racist sexism, and homophobia. a bunch of clowns speaking as authorities when nearly everything they say betrays their ignorance about sex, gender, biology, and genetics, let alone language.
48
@44 -- they actually do check pretty much all exceptional athletes.
it's not so much the checking, but the manner. when people check the background of fabulous white guys, from the us, they just check. for example, there was no ridicule of phelps' sexuality, no jokes about how he was less of man for being good at his job, and his being sort of goofy looking was never the basis for the testing. even the jokes made about juicers were pretty even until there was proof, and usually stuck to the facts.
i don't mind someone being pilloried for being a cheating skeez, i do mind that being strong, competent, and skilled are used as evidence that you are not a woman at all. if you are good at something, you must be a man (in whole or in part), even a secret and sympathetic one; if you are good, you can be a tragic man, but certainly not a woman.
it's not so much the checking, but the manner. when people check the background of fabulous white guys, from the us, they just check. for example, there was no ridicule of phelps' sexuality, no jokes about how he was less of man for being good at his job, and his being sort of goofy looking was never the basis for the testing. even the jokes made about juicers were pretty even until there was proof, and usually stuck to the facts.
i don't mind someone being pilloried for being a cheating skeez, i do mind that being strong, competent, and skilled are used as evidence that you are not a woman at all. if you are good at something, you must be a man (in whole or in part), even a secret and sympathetic one; if you are good, you can be a tragic man, but certainly not a woman.
49
To be fair, everyone knows that girls can't do sporty stuff.
They stay at home and knit and birth and cook and clean.
It's not too late to bring back the 1950's
They stay at home and knit and birth and cook and clean.
It's not too late to bring back the 1950's
50
@46, w7ngman:
to repeat my comment @30, it seems vanishingly unlikely that she is XY with congenital androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) because, as the name implies, if you have that, you are *insensitive to androgens,* and you surely need some androgens to look and perform like she does. CAIS individuals end up looking very feminine, because they are subject to the effects of estrogen but are not subject to the effects of testosterone.
to repeat my comment @30, it seems vanishingly unlikely that she is XY with congenital androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) because, as the name implies, if you have that, you are *insensitive to androgens,* and you surely need some androgens to look and perform like she does. CAIS individuals end up looking very feminine, because they are subject to the effects of estrogen but are not subject to the effects of testosterone.
51
@47: Matt was being sarcastic. not sure if you picked up and that.
@46: Completely agree. This is more of a problem with how we define sex (I mean sex here, not gender btw) and how we sort our competitive classes. How do we ensure fairness of competition, while preventing people from falling through the cracks?
@46: Completely agree. This is more of a problem with how we define sex (I mean sex here, not gender btw) and how we sort our competitive classes. How do we ensure fairness of competition, while preventing people from falling through the cracks?
52
@46 +51:
"how we define sex" is not like. . . determining a weight class. It's just not that simple, which I believe, isn't missed by you.
This is not a question of pure biology. You can not ignore the social, cultural and political nature of things like this.
. . . which is my point - the double standard here is:
biologically exceptional male = good.
Biologically exceptional female = disqualified because she must be male regardless of anatomy, DNA, socialization, or gender.
XX, XY, (and the 12 other known combinations), men and women, male and female, masculine and feminine are not the same thing. . . none can be put in nice boxes. . . sorry but they just can't. Even in sports.
I think this is more of a cultural problem than many care to admit.
"how we define sex" is not like. . . determining a weight class. It's just not that simple, which I believe, isn't missed by you.
This is not a question of pure biology. You can not ignore the social, cultural and political nature of things like this.
. . . which is my point - the double standard here is:
biologically exceptional male = good.
Biologically exceptional female = disqualified because she must be male regardless of anatomy, DNA, socialization, or gender.
XX, XY, (and the 12 other known combinations), men and women, male and female, masculine and feminine are not the same thing. . . none can be put in nice boxes. . . sorry but they just can't. Even in sports.
I think this is more of a cultural problem than many care to admit.
53
#50, fair enough. I didn't read too much about CAIS itself, but surely there are some other intersex conditions that would result in someone with her appearance/abilities.
#52, "Biologically exceptional female = disqualified because she must be male regardless of anatomy, DNA, socialization, or gender."
She isn't disqualified yet, and won't be if she is found to simply be a "biologically exceptional female".
And, this is a matter of sex, not gender.
#52, "Biologically exceptional female = disqualified because she must be male regardless of anatomy, DNA, socialization, or gender."
She isn't disqualified yet, and won't be if she is found to simply be a "biologically exceptional female".
And, this is a matter of sex, not gender.
54
@51, uh yeah, that's why i repeated it. but being sarcastic doesn't work when you are stupid and wrong. by pasting my comments again, i was making the point that it's not effective sarcasm, when you are wrong, the person really did say that thing, and it's written a few column inches above, in the comment he fucking replied to. he made himself look stupid twice, and i pleased myself by rubbing it in.
@53, it *should be a matter of sex, which though not clear is certainly clearer than gender. but "it" is precisely a matter of gender, because of the "evidence" given, most of which are culturally gendered, or gendered culturally. she is lean, she is fast, she is better than other runners, are the "evidence" that she is not a woman. these simply aren't matters of sex.
think of all the men you know and the vast differences in their heights, weights, amounts of muscle or body fat. think of all the men you know who have a physical lifestyle similar to yours, do they all weigh the same, have the same body fat? a "single" sex encompasses a huge variety of body types, an athlete will necessarily be at the edges of that.
just like with men, armstrong, phelps, etc., sometimes a woman comes along who moves the bar. lance armstrong is in fact a bio-freak, his body doesn't create lactic acid at the same rates or levels as the rest of us, is part of why he could win, again and again. he wasn't experiencing the same pain or nausea as his competitors. i wouldn't suggest that armstrong had to be medicated until he performed as poorly as others. clearly that is a similar unfair advantage, but i'm all for armstrong keeping his wins, and semenya keeping hers.
@53, it *should be a matter of sex, which though not clear is certainly clearer than gender. but "it" is precisely a matter of gender, because of the "evidence" given, most of which are culturally gendered, or gendered culturally. she is lean, she is fast, she is better than other runners, are the "evidence" that she is not a woman. these simply aren't matters of sex.
think of all the men you know and the vast differences in their heights, weights, amounts of muscle or body fat. think of all the men you know who have a physical lifestyle similar to yours, do they all weigh the same, have the same body fat? a "single" sex encompasses a huge variety of body types, an athlete will necessarily be at the edges of that.
just like with men, armstrong, phelps, etc., sometimes a woman comes along who moves the bar. lance armstrong is in fact a bio-freak, his body doesn't create lactic acid at the same rates or levels as the rest of us, is part of why he could win, again and again. he wasn't experiencing the same pain or nausea as his competitors. i wouldn't suggest that armstrong had to be medicated until he performed as poorly as others. clearly that is a similar unfair advantage, but i'm all for armstrong keeping his wins, and semenya keeping hers.
55
#15, I'm not convinced that would work. Often in weight-class-based sports like boxing/wrestling/fighting, you see two competitors that are both the same weight but still have vastly different abilities. It has some to do with muscle/fat ratio, yes, but it also has a lot to do with their god-given frames and the amount of leverage that their respective bodies are able to generate.
I would think that, at a glance, women in the same weight class as men would still have a natural disadvantage at *most* sports, simply because of the innate differences between male/female musculoskeletal systems.
As crude as it may seem with respect to modern views on gender, sex classes in sports are ultimately more beneficial to female athletes that otherwise wouldn't be able to have fun and prove themselves in a competitive environment.
I'd like to see an "open class" system where one sex has the strict requirement, but members of that sex may join the other sex's "open class" if they wish. The only problem would be, like I said, that the average male body is only innately superior to the average female body at *some* sports. Deciding which sex would be the open class on a sport-by-sport basis seems like too subjective a task, but it's definitely something that some kind of athletic organizing body could tackle.
I would think that, at a glance, women in the same weight class as men would still have a natural disadvantage at *most* sports, simply because of the innate differences between male/female musculoskeletal systems.
As crude as it may seem with respect to modern views on gender, sex classes in sports are ultimately more beneficial to female athletes that otherwise wouldn't be able to have fun and prove themselves in a competitive environment.
I'd like to see an "open class" system where one sex has the strict requirement, but members of that sex may join the other sex's "open class" if they wish. The only problem would be, like I said, that the average male body is only innately superior to the average female body at *some* sports. Deciding which sex would be the open class on a sport-by-sport basis seems like too subjective a task, but it's definitely something that some kind of athletic organizing body could tackle.
57
HOLY SHIT I DID NOT KNOW THIS LADY GAGA SHIT.
SOOOOO KONFLICTED. FRAT BRO, DUZ IT MAKE ME GAY TO POKER FACE?
SHEEEEEEEETZ.
SOOOOO KONFLICTED. FRAT BRO, DUZ IT MAKE ME GAY TO POKER FACE?
SHEEEEEEEETZ.
58
@54:
I think the evidence "they" produced was also simply (in a nice sexist? way) - Some just decided she looks like a man, and she's fast, so they decided to test her.
@53 - This isn't the first time something like this has happened. No matter what the outcome of the test is. . . she is effectively "disqualified" from competing. Her athletic career (and perhaps her personal life) will be in jeopardy.
Why?
Because people can't seem to get over the fact there is variation in life - even with sex and anatomy.
Because someone claims this is about "sex" and "anatomy" it suggests that it's straight forward and without any social or cultural prejudice. Bullshit.
I think the evidence "they" produced was also simply (in a nice sexist? way) - Some just decided she looks like a man, and she's fast, so they decided to test her.
@53 - This isn't the first time something like this has happened. No matter what the outcome of the test is. . . she is effectively "disqualified" from competing. Her athletic career (and perhaps her personal life) will be in jeopardy.
Why?
Because people can't seem to get over the fact there is variation in life - even with sex and anatomy.
Because someone claims this is about "sex" and "anatomy" it suggests that it's straight forward and without any social or cultural prejudice. Bullshit.
59
@54:
"If she is found to be a biologically exceptional female."
so. . . who gets to decide what "biologically exceptional female" means?"
good luck with that.
"If she is found to be a biologically exceptional female."
so. . . who gets to decide what "biologically exceptional female" means?"
good luck with that.
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