Wednesday, August 19, 2009
Politics "Vile, contemptible nonsense."
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 7:50 AM
Barney Frank shows his fellow Democrats how it's done:
Hello, Democratic members of Congress? Be like Barney, please. Nowhere is it written that Democratic elected officials have to be ceaselessly polite to lunatics—whether they're showing up at town hall meetings, sitting in Congress themselves, or ranting away on cable news. Your sane constituents will applaud you for calling bullshit on the politically and criminally insane. Grow a collective set already.
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2
I fear healthcare reform is going to lose because we don't have enough Barney Franks. Why in hell can't our President get up there and say aomething like this?
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"Grow a collective set already."
Ab-so-lutely.
Dem's need to push back harder against this. I wish he would have called her an idiot.
Ab-so-lutely.
Dem's need to push back harder against this. I wish he would have called her an idiot.
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It almost makes me want to cry. I can't remember being this delighted by anything Obama has said for awhile.
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That is Exactly how it is done. Barney was clear and forceful in calling bullshit without having to raise his voice and have things escalate into a screaming match.
Maybe Barney needs to put together a tutorial to show the others how to keep control and shut down the kooks.
You don't have to be Jewish or gay (though it doesn't hurt) in order to refute these Nazi nuts, you just need to have the balls to speak the truth and common decency.
Barney Frank = Man of the Day.
Maybe Barney needs to put together a tutorial to show the others how to keep control and shut down the kooks.
You don't have to be Jewish or gay (though it doesn't hurt) in order to refute these Nazi nuts, you just need to have the balls to speak the truth and common decency.
Barney Frank = Man of the Day.
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Man, Barney Frank is so friggin' awesome. I miss living in Massachusetts, land of the democrats who kick ass and take names.
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When I watched it, the next "suggested clip" was of Hannity's show. In it, they showed clips of Barney standing up to the mob with an introduction of "listen to how Rep. Frank responds to perfectly legitimate questions about deficits and gov't control of healthcare." Not once did they actually play the "you're a Nazi" comments from the audience, they just assured us that the audience was concerned citizens with reasonable questions and that elitist Frank was attacking them.
I don't watch Fox News so although I know they are a 24hr right wing lie machine, I never actually experience it. I was surprised at how bad it was; I guess I am naive.
I don't watch Fox News so although I know they are a 24hr right wing lie machine, I never actually experience it. I was surprised at how bad it was; I guess I am naive.
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Now THAT is how it is done. Can Frank do a quick class for other Senators/Congresspersons on the fine art of telling someone what is what? That was beautiful. I may not always agree with Barney Frank but the man does know how to argue and to lay it down.
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@11:
Fox News is a national disgrace, and every advertiser on that network should pull their support.
Fox News is a national disgrace, and every advertiser on that network should pull their support.
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Hopefully this will be a "You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?" moment in the health care reform debate.
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god bless barney frank. tell those idiots that they are IDIOTS and stop letting them lead this "debate."
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You've gotta hand it to the LaRoucheites. They really know how to skim the crazy off the top of the young, disaffected activist subset.
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How you all ever watched Barney Frank on the House floor or in committee hearings? This is SOP for him, just probably rare to do this to constituents.
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Massachusetts FTW. Once again. I've never been ashamed of being from there (well, okay, just the once) and it's no small part in thanks to people like Barney Frank and Teddy Kennedy and things like this.
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Frank was awesome. As for fox, Hannity and Beck have both compared Obama to Nazis in the last month. Its not just local leotards, its nationally televised leotards as well. Fox makes me ashamed for having a conservative side.
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I was equally upset at bad spelling. Bush being called Hitler had nowhere nearly the same coverage as this nonsense. For more of the presser hop here...
http://www.necn.com/Boston/NECN-Extra/20…
"I haven't had a secret for 21 years." Cracks me up.
ps Frank has had his minor scandals in the past, but on these issues he handles himself quite well.
http://www.necn.com/Boston/NECN-Extra/20…
"I haven't had a secret for 21 years." Cracks me up.
ps Frank has had his minor scandals in the past, but on these issues he handles himself quite well.
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i wish Frank's repsonse had been "what do you mean 'Nazi'?" draw her out and expose her ignorance rather than dismissing her meaningless charge out of hand with clever insults. is she really a larouchie? is she a fear-based regressive? we'll never know because there was no DISCUSSION.
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They made a movie of how to assassinate Bush! How can you say there wasn't large coverage. The Bush is Hitler mantra was non stop for 6+ years. Based on your comment you were not upset. This for me is the fatal flaw with the outrage that I am observing.
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Not everyone can be so eloquent as the great Barney Frank. Makes me want to move to his district.
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@15- They figured out they don't need a sense of decency. 50% of this country just doesn't give a fuck, they've accepted Jesus and thus are absolved of any consequences of their actions.
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@11 That is really amazing about Fox News. I was just thinking about how engaging with people like this politely and respectfully just ends up giving more credence and legitimacy to their insane beliefs.
I am loving me some Barney Frank right now...
I am loving me some Barney Frank right now...
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Is there any way someone could give Barney Frank some more power? I think he has enough balls for everyone, if he would just be allowed to lead congressional Dems.
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So does socialized medicine and socialist Nazi Germany. The state controlled health care system was used to decide who had reproductive care an who didn't, who had to have abortions, who had access to doctors,... It was the lynch pin. It started in the late 1800's to help the poor. Then a later administration abused the power to do unbelievable horror.
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Way to go, Barney! But it scares the hell out of me that there are a lot of people out there just like her, or worse. The escalating rhetoric from the right is turning health-care reform into a call to arms for a civil war.
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What @39 said...
@11, can you post that Fox News video? I'm going to post it on Facebook alongside the King clip and expose their rank fucking idiocy to my 3,521 friends.
@11, can you post that Fox News video? I'm going to post it on Facebook alongside the King clip and expose their rank fucking idiocy to my 3,521 friends.
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@31-
They made a movie? Who is this mysterious they? Why should I listen to them? Could they be 16 year olds with a webcam? The only movie I know of declaring Bush to be Hitler was made by some Brits. They weren't the mainstream media, or even pretending to be making a documentary. What do you know about the movie besides its title?
And if you're going to claim that the foundation of the Third Reich was found in the 1800's version of health care, then I can draw you a connection between any two events in the same time frame. And it will make more sense.
They made a movie? Who is this mysterious they? Why should I listen to them? Could they be 16 year olds with a webcam? The only movie I know of declaring Bush to be Hitler was made by some Brits. They weren't the mainstream media, or even pretending to be making a documentary. What do you know about the movie besides its title?
And if you're going to claim that the foundation of the Third Reich was found in the 1800's version of health care, then I can draw you a connection between any two events in the same time frame. And it will make more sense.
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@41
So why hasn't the existing medical help (ie medicare, VA) available led to such a current system? I'd say false equivalency with a notable rank organic smell.
If it smells like bullshit...
So why hasn't the existing medical help (ie medicare, VA) available led to such a current system? I'd say false equivalency with a notable rank organic smell.
If it smells like bullshit...
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ChrisO has a good point. The transition from state health care to unbelievable horror has occurred in 100% of countries with state health care throughout history. Oh... wait.
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@31: They made a movie about an speculative future where Bush was assassinated. Did you watch the movie? I doubt it... since it didn't at any point glorify killing a president in the same way that many right-wing pundits have.
Again... left-wingers apparently protest against the government killing people, right-wingers protest when the government tries to save people.
Again... left-wingers apparently protest against the government killing people, right-wingers protest when the government tries to save people.
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My point is not to equate this administration to the horror of Nazi Germany. My point is there were numerous sources who constantly compared Bush to Hitler. I just was asking if the people upset today were upset then as well. As for the connection from the 1880 something public health care in Germany to The Third Reich, I point out that it was a prominent tool used by them, not that it lead to their belief system. In attempting to help the poor they left the door open for social engineering.
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@ 50, the number of people who compared Bush to Hitler was much smaller than the number of people now showing up at tea bag rallies and town hall meetings. That's one reason why your point is disingenuous. Another is, as someone else pointed out, there are actual parallels between the actions of Hitler and Bush, such as the disdain for civil rights, the war for trumped up reasons, and the general self-centered way they both governed.
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@11 - Video, please.
@28 - My first thought was that she's probably a LaRouchebag. She looks young enough to be one of those college recruits, and the posters certainly look like LaRouche material I've seen around campus.
@28 - My first thought was that she's probably a LaRouchebag. She looks young enough to be one of those college recruits, and the posters certainly look like LaRouche material I've seen around campus.
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FIRST, these people are idiots. Frank did an excellent job calling this one out. He was civil, and didn't stand for the nonsense. It was probably perfect, but without more context I can't say for certain. I'm sure he had already delivered enough substance to refute her before the confrontation.
SECOND, this is likely not a Repub or Teabagger, but a LaRouche supporter. Is is important do distinguish between the different loonies out there? Maybe yes, maybe no. I choose yes just to be fair and keep it all straight in my mind.
THIRD, Bush was called or compared to Hitler very often, especially around these parts. Whether it is more accurate or not has much to do with how idiotic the person making the comparison seems. I thought the Bush = Hitler people were a little out there, to be honest, while thinking the Obama = Hilter are even farther out. That said, yeah, if you are okay with one side doing it, be prepared to have the other side use the same tactic even if it applies less. that is one of the reasons i did not like the Bush = Hitler rhetoric so much back then; there were better arguments and catch phrases to use.
SECOND, this is likely not a Repub or Teabagger, but a LaRouche supporter. Is is important do distinguish between the different loonies out there? Maybe yes, maybe no. I choose yes just to be fair and keep it all straight in my mind.
THIRD, Bush was called or compared to Hitler very often, especially around these parts. Whether it is more accurate or not has much to do with how idiotic the person making the comparison seems. I thought the Bush = Hitler people were a little out there, to be honest, while thinking the Obama = Hilter are even farther out. That said, yeah, if you are okay with one side doing it, be prepared to have the other side use the same tactic even if it applies less. that is one of the reasons i did not like the Bush = Hitler rhetoric so much back then; there were better arguments and catch phrases to use.
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Jesus Christ, conservatives are stupid. By the way, dumbass, Hitler was AUSTRIAN. Go hide in your bunker.
So does socialized medicine and socialist Nazi Germany. The state controlled health care system was used to decide who had reproductive care an who didn't, who had to have abortions, who had access to doctors,... It was the lynch pin. It started in the late 1800's to help the poor. Then a later administration abused the power to do unbelievable horror.
Jesus Christ, conservatives are stupid. By the way, dumbass, Hitler was AUSTRIAN. Go hide in your bunker.
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The people attending townhalls and tea bag rallies are not in any significant numbers claiming Obama is a Hitler. I'm not really sure how your point has relevance. A google search of Bush Hitler gives 7 mil. hits. Obama Hitler gives 6.7 mil. So the numbers are similar. I never argued that there was no Bush/Nazi connection. Again you miss my point. I do not remember any mainstream media outrage over Bush/Hitler why is there over Obama/Hitler? I think that starting a question the way that woman did was stupid and made the question not worth addressing. I also think we should be very wary if the powers we give our government. Why when Bush impinged on our liberties did the left howl yet when this health care proposal also impinges there is no outcry? I just ask for ethical consistancy
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I think one of the best things we can push for in this country after the health act gets through is some serious media reform. Strengthen the FCC, revoke licenses of networks that disseminate patently false/illegal information. for example, comparing one to a Nazi is illegal in some other countries.
There are now plenty of blatent examples in the past year alone to support a strong court case against these hosts (Beck, Limbaugh, and Hannity should really be going to a 5 year Federal prison for what they have done) and networks should be broken up and sold off in pieces to the highest bidder. Perhaps someone will pursue this--we've given the dogs a long enough lease and they have provided enough evidence to choke 'em back.
There are now plenty of blatent examples in the past year alone to support a strong court case against these hosts (Beck, Limbaugh, and Hannity should really be going to a 5 year Federal prison for what they have done) and networks should be broken up and sold off in pieces to the highest bidder. Perhaps someone will pursue this--we've given the dogs a long enough lease and they have provided enough evidence to choke 'em back.
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How is this health care proposal impinging on anyone's civil rights? Is there some secret part of the health care proposal that allows Obama to go and see what library books you've been checking out?
And ChrisO, before you go asking others to be ethically consistent, first, learn to spell, and, second, be consistent yourself. Others have called you on your bullshit. Ignoring it doesn't make your bullshit any more valid.
And ChrisO, before you go asking others to be ethically consistent, first, learn to spell, and, second, be consistent yourself. Others have called you on your bullshit. Ignoring it doesn't make your bullshit any more valid.
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Ah, my hometown makes the news... on the one hand, it's embarrassing to have that jackass woman representing my town, on the other hand, it's awesome to have Barney Frank doing the same.
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@55 I don't feel national healthcare infringes on my liberty at all, rather, it enhances it. Unless you are in perfect health, it is nearly impossible to be entrepreneurial and have access to affordable healthcare. It is usually an either/or proposition. In this new economy that is becoming more about what an individual brings to the marketplace, where the manufacturing sector has been decimated and corporations continue to cut workforces, a safety net in the form of national healthcare is the proper route our federal government should take.
One of the greatest anti-fascist figures of the last century, Winston Churchill, though national healthcare was a good idea so he started the Britain's NHS, and that has worked out pretty well for Great Britain. Even Margaret Thatcher dared not suggest getting rid of the NHS.
One of the greatest anti-fascist figures of the last century, Winston Churchill, though national healthcare was a good idea so he started the Britain's NHS, and that has worked out pretty well for Great Britain. Even Margaret Thatcher dared not suggest getting rid of the NHS.
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While I'll readily admit to spell as a weakness, I'm not sure how that changes the meaning of my words. It is you who choose to talk about spelling add ignore my points. I also point out that I've true to have a discussion without once attacking or denigrating the person.
As for not addressing the points people bring up. I've tried to reasonably do so. When some one posts a 2 sentence really calling me stupid, I see no point in retorting.
As for public health care leading to 100% horror. That's bot what I said nor what I'm trying to argue. I was addressing the statement that there was no connection when history clearly gives us on
on FCC regulation. This is a scary thing that you advocate. That is on par with Chinese censorship. Why would you trust the government with that. Why if Bush had revoked CBS's licence after they made up documents on his guard service. It if the FCC had revoked CNN's when they admitted to falsifying the prewar news out of Iraq in order to keep a bureau there? Why you may like this administration, what could the next do with it. They could censor anyone who disagreed.
To bring this discussion back to where I started. These Nazi referenced are fundamentally no different that before. It's a charged accusation and will draw the eye. What really matters are the specifics of today and there affect on tomorrow
as for how the house bill would impinging on civil liberties. It states on page 16 that after a grandfather period you will be unable to buy private health insurance and if your current plan changes, you must switch to the public option. It also mandates that an individual's health record be shared with entitites without there consent. Much like Bush looking at calling records to find paterns.
Any others I missed. Sorry. I'll try and address them later.
More...
As for not addressing the points people bring up. I've tried to reasonably do so. When some one posts a 2 sentence really calling me stupid, I see no point in retorting.
As for public health care leading to 100% horror. That's bot what I said nor what I'm trying to argue. I was addressing the statement that there was no connection when history clearly gives us on
on FCC regulation. This is a scary thing that you advocate. That is on par with Chinese censorship. Why would you trust the government with that. Why if Bush had revoked CBS's licence after they made up documents on his guard service. It if the FCC had revoked CNN's when they admitted to falsifying the prewar news out of Iraq in order to keep a bureau there? Why you may like this administration, what could the next do with it. They could censor anyone who disagreed.
To bring this discussion back to where I started. These Nazi referenced are fundamentally no different that before. It's a charged accusation and will draw the eye. What really matters are the specifics of today and there affect on tomorrow
as for how the house bill would impinging on civil liberties. It states on page 16 that after a grandfather period you will be unable to buy private health insurance and if your current plan changes, you must switch to the public option. It also mandates that an individual's health record be shared with entitites without there consent. Much like Bush looking at calling records to find paterns.
Any others I missed. Sorry. I'll try and address them later.
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@59 why should the federal goverment take care of health care instead of family/community/city/state? Our constitution was written to limit federal powers. If I do not like my state I can move and still be an American, if I don't like the Feds I'm hosed
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ChrisO, if you have a problem with people calling you stupid, perhaps you should try putting a little more intelligence in your posts. I accuse you of not responding to others who've pointed out that you're being dishonest and your response is that there's no point in doing so?
Earlier you said, "Why when Bush impinged on our liberties did the left howl yet when this health care proposal also impinges there is no outcry?" When asked how this health care proposal impinges on yours or anyone's civil liberties, you reply, "As for public health care leading to 100% horror. That's bot what I said nor what I'm trying to argue. I was addressing the statement that there was no connection when history clearly gives us on".
Don't accuse others of putting words in your mouth. You're doing a fine job of that yourself. As for your supposed "historical connection", it's been disproven. Move on, and explain how exactly the proposed health care reform impinges on civil rights. Or can you not do that?
Earlier you said, "Why when Bush impinged on our liberties did the left howl yet when this health care proposal also impinges there is no outcry?" When asked how this health care proposal impinges on yours or anyone's civil liberties, you reply, "As for public health care leading to 100% horror. That's bot what I said nor what I'm trying to argue. I was addressing the statement that there was no connection when history clearly gives us on".
Don't accuse others of putting words in your mouth. You're doing a fine job of that yourself. As for your supposed "historical connection", it's been disproven. Move on, and explain how exactly the proposed health care reform impinges on civil rights. Or can you not do that?
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I was upset when Bush was compared to Hitler. Hitler, for better or worse, was intelligent. Bush was just a christian idiot.
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Please supply the evidence that the public health care system of pre war Germany was not used to determin who could access health care an who could not? Jews were excluded. The pre war german health care system forced abortions to cleanse the gene pool. My point is they used the public health care system to do this. Please tell me how that is inacurate.
My last post was too long and this part was cut. Thank goodness it was still in my copy buffer.
as for how the house bill would impinging on civil liberties. It states on page 16 that after a grandfather period you will be unable to buy private health insurance and if your current plan changes, you must switch to the public option. It also mandates that an individual's health record be shared with entitites without there consent. Much like Bush looking at calling records to find paterns.
Any others I missed. Sorry. I'll try and address them later.
My last post was too long and this part was cut. Thank goodness it was still in my copy buffer.
as for how the house bill would impinging on civil liberties. It states on page 16 that after a grandfather period you will be unable to buy private health insurance and if your current plan changes, you must switch to the public option. It also mandates that an individual's health record be shared with entitites without there consent. Much like Bush looking at calling records to find paterns.
Any others I missed. Sorry. I'll try and address them later.
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@63 comments like this are why I normaly do not post in places like this. Thank you for those others who have tried to have a conversation. I still don't understand the level of anger and hate.
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Hitler, for better or worse, was also a war hero who was decorated for bravery. I forget, what did Bush do during the Vietnam war....?
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Barney, you go girl! Ironic the only one with any balls is the gay guy. So much for the stereotype of the passive fem sissy. It's all those hetero blue dogs who are the real sissies.
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Frank is an idiot who should be in jail for his prostitution activities.
Anyone who voted for this guy hasn't much of a brain.
Anyone who voted for this guy hasn't much of a brain.
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Ummmm...anonymous Chris? Bush was WAAAAAAY closer to the Nazis than Obama is. Central control of industry is not a required part of the Nazi/Fascist ideology, and, even where it is used, it is not a very important part of the ideology, at that. Central control of industry is only important inasmuch as those industries must work towards the stated national good. If industry is doing that on its own, it's not necessary to control them. Actually, it's more likely to see a carrot/stick approach used on industry to get them to conform to ideology. Much more important are things like national identity (if you're not with us, you're against us...if you don't wear a flag pin, you're a terrorist...immigrants are the other, not real Americans), totalitarian executive control (I'm the decider), and military aggression against enemies of the regime (we will not negotiate with terrorists). Key among the points of this ideology is a vehement anti-intellectualism. Given all of this, no I was not upset to hear people accuse the Bush regime of being Fascist. It's a lot closer to the truth than calling the Obama Administration the same.
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@64- Page 16 says no such thing. It says you won't be able to buy private health care THE WAY YOU DO NOW. Instead there's a different procedure. That email forward/board post you got is full of distortions and outright lies.
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@65 - Thanks for giving us the gift of your wisdom. We know it is hard to be in our presence, even electronically. You really do not need to provide such a service. It is truly selfless of you.
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Chris O - I imagine that a lot of liberals aren't particularly upset over public options and other health care provisions on civil liberty grounds for the same reason a lot of conservatives weren't particularly upset over the Patriot Act and its security provisions on civil liberty grounds: "Civil Liberty" is an abstraction, like time, beauty, or obscenity, and we really only know it when we see it. Which isn't to say we shouldn't proclaim to see an infringement when we do; it's only to say that objecting to what you saw as civil liberty violations in the Patriot Act and NOT objecting to what you see as civil liberty violations in the health care bill isn't an example of hypocrisy or mixed messages. Rather, it illustrates that, for a number of reasons, most of us here don't agree with you.
Sharing of health records is a necessity, in my wife's and my case. She's had between a half-dozen and a dozen surgeries in the last decade, one of which paralyzed her vocal cord; her history's peppered with cysts, goiters, a broken neck, and more. Frankly, she'd prefer if a doctor could just open up a shared file and know what's going on. Provided that health care entities are held to the same standards they are now vis-a-vis employers and law enforcement (e.g., they couldn't report drug use or sexual history), I don't see that kind of record-sharing as a problem. To be honest, I might have even been more open to some of the record-scouring in the Patriot Act if I'd been assured that the DEA would have no access to information found, or that incriminating information unrelated to national security would be quietly returned to where it was found; as it was, it amounted to a blanket increase in the power of law enforcement.
As for the "Nazi" thing, I DID object, rather fervently, when Bush was compared to Nazis in general or Hitler in particular. And I object now. I don't see one as being more defensible than another; whatever crimes Bush committed in the name of religion, American exceptionalism, trickle-down economics, or general redneckery, I don't think he's a fascist. I just see another misguided disciple of anthropomorphic monotheism and Milton Friedman.
I'm a little more libertarian than some around here on the matter of FCC; I'd go so far as to entertain the notion of abolishing it entirely. I don't like the idea of a centralized agency offering guidelines for content, and I don't think any true artist or journalist should be comfortable with such.
I'm not sure a city, municipality, or even a state would have the tax base to run a health care system. I could be wrong. It seems, at least, like we'd need some federal funding in the mix. Leaving it to the "family" is precisely the problem we have now--costs are out of control, the equivalent of paying $50 for a BLT at lunch, and contrary to Ayn Randian mythology, the bases on which some people make more or less money than others are frequently arbitrary.
More...
Sharing of health records is a necessity, in my wife's and my case. She's had between a half-dozen and a dozen surgeries in the last decade, one of which paralyzed her vocal cord; her history's peppered with cysts, goiters, a broken neck, and more. Frankly, she'd prefer if a doctor could just open up a shared file and know what's going on. Provided that health care entities are held to the same standards they are now vis-a-vis employers and law enforcement (e.g., they couldn't report drug use or sexual history), I don't see that kind of record-sharing as a problem. To be honest, I might have even been more open to some of the record-scouring in the Patriot Act if I'd been assured that the DEA would have no access to information found, or that incriminating information unrelated to national security would be quietly returned to where it was found; as it was, it amounted to a blanket increase in the power of law enforcement.
As for the "Nazi" thing, I DID object, rather fervently, when Bush was compared to Nazis in general or Hitler in particular. And I object now. I don't see one as being more defensible than another; whatever crimes Bush committed in the name of religion, American exceptionalism, trickle-down economics, or general redneckery, I don't think he's a fascist. I just see another misguided disciple of anthropomorphic monotheism and Milton Friedman.
I'm a little more libertarian than some around here on the matter of FCC; I'd go so far as to entertain the notion of abolishing it entirely. I don't like the idea of a centralized agency offering guidelines for content, and I don't think any true artist or journalist should be comfortable with such.
I'm not sure a city, municipality, or even a state would have the tax base to run a health care system. I could be wrong. It seems, at least, like we'd need some federal funding in the mix. Leaving it to the "family" is precisely the problem we have now--costs are out of control, the equivalent of paying $50 for a BLT at lunch, and contrary to Ayn Randian mythology, the bases on which some people make more or less money than others are frequently arbitrary.
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still loved frank's response... still think people here should know better than to compare bush to hitler... still think the obama=hilter lady above is a larouche (who identifies more a democrat, hello) loony not tea bagger.
frank's response is very good. unfortunately, there are still - in his words - vile comments here that think it's okay to compare people to hitler in ways that diminish what actually happened under the nazi regime. and there are also misguided posters here who think this is entirely comming from the right. (though some of this rhetoric is clearly coming from the right as well.)
you all are supposed to be smarter and better than that. seriously.
frank's response is very good. unfortunately, there are still - in his words - vile comments here that think it's okay to compare people to hitler in ways that diminish what actually happened under the nazi regime. and there are also misguided posters here who think this is entirely comming from the right. (though some of this rhetoric is clearly coming from the right as well.)
you all are supposed to be smarter and better than that. seriously.
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i'll add that to people like Chris O above -- someone who doesn't seem to think he is blessing us with his opinion, but rather someone who wants to engage in debate -- we come off looking like the idiots. we are the ones who are name-calling, who are using propaganda to smear a group of people instead of focusing on the content of their (erroneous) criticism. i know it's hard to be on your best behavior at all times -- this is the internet after all -- but can we try?
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@15 Rob in Baltimore
My thoughts through all the Right Wing lies and scare mongering exactly, Rob!
Let me repeat what Rob quoted: "You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"
And add this that Welch also said: "If there is a God in Heaven it will do neither you nor your cause any good."
Have been waiting in vain for some notable to quote Joseph Welch's words above to FOX N[ews], Limbaugh, Beck, or the fake Savage. When will the decent people stand up and speak truth to power? - Power now residing in how the Right Wing media and the radicals in charge of the Republican Party manage their side of any argument.
It seems like only Jon Stewart is able to illustrate coherently, just how hypocritical and crazy the Right Wing Media has become and how feeble any rebuttal has been from the Left. He can't continue to carry the load alone.
Not that I don't recognize the increasing level of physical intimidation that's going on. But leadership requires courage.
Barney Frank's response to this questioner is terrific but long overdue.
Crazies also have rights, but there IS a line to be crossed and a country to lose! We MUST begin to call the media and leadership to task.
Rational people need to ensure that they are not giving the ignorant, the crazy and the ratings seekers free range over our National discourse. Surely we are better than this?
My thoughts through all the Right Wing lies and scare mongering exactly, Rob!
Let me repeat what Rob quoted: "You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"
And add this that Welch also said: "If there is a God in Heaven it will do neither you nor your cause any good."
Have been waiting in vain for some notable to quote Joseph Welch's words above to FOX N[ews], Limbaugh, Beck, or the fake Savage. When will the decent people stand up and speak truth to power? - Power now residing in how the Right Wing media and the radicals in charge of the Republican Party manage their side of any argument.
It seems like only Jon Stewart is able to illustrate coherently, just how hypocritical and crazy the Right Wing Media has become and how feeble any rebuttal has been from the Left. He can't continue to carry the load alone.
Not that I don't recognize the increasing level of physical intimidation that's going on. But leadership requires courage.
Barney Frank's response to this questioner is terrific but long overdue.
Crazies also have rights, but there IS a line to be crossed and a country to lose! We MUST begin to call the media and leadership to task.
Rational people need to ensure that they are not giving the ignorant, the crazy and the ratings seekers free range over our National discourse. Surely we are better than this?
77
@75 - I thought I was pretty civil. Long-winded, sure (I am what I am, and all that), but civil.
Just sayin' . . .
Just sayin' . . .
78
Americans want socialised health care? Careful what you wish for guys. It might come true. As a British guy, I question the idea that socialised medicine provides value for money. I live in Britain where we have the NHS. Its NOT free. I pay for the shitty system through my taxes. Personally, I'd much rather take my taxes OUT of the NHS and pay for my healthcare as a customer. That's not an option. The government takes a big chunk of my income by force. If I don't pay it, I go to prison. Great system huh?
79
@78 - But have you ever experienced what health care means for a lot of Americans? My British husband and I, an American, have now lived and worked in Germany, the UK, and the US, and of the three systems, we both personally prefer the NHS. In fact, we believe that if catastrophic illness were to strike one of us while we're living in America that we'd have to pack up and return to England because that illness would most likely bankrupt us here. Certainly the NHS is an imperfect system, but compared to what we've experienced here with our employer-provided insurance and what I grew up with (Blue Cross Blue Shield), much, much better than what America currently has on average. Yes, Americans with money can afford some of the best health care in the world, but this just leads to a different type of rationing based on income. Not to mention, in this debate, a single-payer system is completely out of the question. Bill Maher asked a question in the last Real Time which I really liked - why didn't the Dems start the debate with a single-payer system, so that the public option became the compromise, and noted they didn't even have the balls to do that.
80
@78: Define "socialized health care."
An option for public health insurance is not at all the same as socialized health care. In the former, your doctor works for a hospital or for himself. In the latter, the doctor works for the government.
An option for public health insurance is not at all the same as socialized health care. In the former, your doctor works for a hospital or for himself. In the latter, the doctor works for the government.
81
that dumb bitch is not hot in any way.
Barney Frank = King of the Lab :)
How is trying to bring health care to more people by way of the Federal Government in any way like the Third Reich? To me, it seems to be like any other government program (Medicare, Medicaid, SSODI). Why shouldn't our government take care of the citizens? It might be due to the fact that I was a disinterested, young child when he was president, but did anyone compare (or deface a picture of) Clinton to Hitler when he proposed bringing widespread healthcare to everyone? The Patriot Act did more harm to our liberties than "socialized" healthcare.
Barney Frank = King of the Lab :)
How is trying to bring health care to more people by way of the Federal Government in any way like the Third Reich? To me, it seems to be like any other government program (Medicare, Medicaid, SSODI). Why shouldn't our government take care of the citizens? It might be due to the fact that I was a disinterested, young child when he was president, but did anyone compare (or deface a picture of) Clinton to Hitler when he proposed bringing widespread healthcare to everyone? The Patriot Act did more harm to our liberties than "socialized" healthcare.
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