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Tuesday, August 11, 2009

Deep Bore Brawl

Posted by on Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 4:18 PM

We've been busy getting out the paper today so I haven't had time to Slog. But you've got to check out this rumble between Mayoral challenger Mike McGinn and incumbent Greg Nickels—firing back and forth email accusations about the proposed deep bore tunnel. McGinn has opposed the tunnel as his primary campaign tack, a strategy that seems to be gaining him support in recent polls. But Nickles, a leading proponent of the tunnel, claims that McGinn is deceiving voters. He says the surface-transit option would cost Seattle more than the tunnel. It started last night, when McGinn took a jab over a meager forecast for Seattle's budget in this press release:

"Given Seattle's spiraling budget crisis, Greg Nickels and Joe Mallahan need to come clean with the public about how they intend to raise $930 million dollars from Seattle residents to pay for the Viaduct Tunnel that they both support," said Michael McGinn. "Specifically, what taxes or fees will they increase, who will they impose them on, and how long will the taxes last?"

Nickels spokesman Sandeep Kaushik didn't explain how to pay for a $930 million bore, but he did shoot back a news release a couple hours later:

[T]he campaign this evening will begin placing thousands of automated calls to Seattle residents to clear up the distortions and half truths about candidate Mike McGinn’s position on the Alaskan Way Viaduct. McGinn has used mailings and multiple rounds of push polling to create the erroneous impression among many voters that he is an advocate for lower taxes.

In fact, the opposite is true. His actual position on the Viaduct — which he leaves out of his communications with city voters — would involve tearing up the existing agreement with the state in order to take down the Viaduct and replace it with surface streets. This option would still require $930 million from Seattle taxpayers.

McGinn's campaign was all up in my inbox again this morning, citing a 2007 AP article in which Nickels said that voters "sent a very clear message — whether it is above ground or below, they don't want to build another freeway on our waterfront. The three of us [Nickels, Ron Sims and Christine Gregoire] have heard the voters. This is the 21st Century and what the people of Seattle have said is we must put aside the 1950s mind-set about transportation and find new and better alternatives." McGinn sent a rejoinder to argue that Nickels has gone back on his word:

"Not only did he break his promise, now he's trying to stick Seattle taxpayers with the most expensive option on the table."

"And now Nickels is desperately trying to convince voters that they have to pay $930 million plus cost overruns no matter what solution we come up with," McGinn said. "That's simply false. The cheaper option he rejected would cost Seattle much less."

Bored with the tunnel yet? You will be.

McGinn also sent this graphic to show the tunnel is more expensive than all our levies combined:

Tunnel_Cost.jpg

That's only half the story, Nickels's campaign shot back before noon. The surface transit option isn't free. In fact, Nickels says, it would end up costing Seattle more. Although the final cost would be more for the tunnel—$4.2 billion compared to $3.5 billion for the surface option—the Nickels campaign calculates that Seattle's share would be more for the surface option.

Surface Option:

City would be responsible for local streets and local improvements:
Seawall $256 million
Waterfront Promenade $100 million
Utility Relocation $252 million
City Streets $193 million (includes Mercer, which McGinn supports)
Streetcar $135 million

TOTAL $936 million

State pays for:

Moving Forward Projects $1.1Billion (includes southend and northend)
Western Couplet $500 million
I-5 Improvements $ 500 million
Transit $400 million
Traffic Mitigation $30 million
Transportation Demand Management $37 million

TOTAL $2.567 Billion

McGinn's response, however, is a little weak. He doesn't address the issue of how much his option would cost. After all, it's McGinn's turn to answer this question: If the problem is that the city can't afford to pay $930 million for a tunnel, how can it pay $936 for the surface transit option? Instead McGinn just asks more questions in his next press release:

1. Why did Nickels break his promise to not pursue a tunnel?

2. Why did Nickels choose an option that was significantly more
expensive and put Seattle taxpayers on the hook for the balance and
cost overruns? We can widen I-5, add transit service, improve the
waterfront, and repair the seawall within $2.4 billion.

3. Why won't Nickels disclose the details of planned tax increases to
pay for the tunnel?

Since this issue is the biggest part of McGinn's platform, he needs to hit back with a substantive answer. If Nickels's figures are wrong—e.g., the surface figures are bloated—McGinn should say so. He has raised the specter of cost overruns falling solely on Seattle's back (due to a questionable law passed by the legislature that many people think will be tossed out) but the debate has been about this $930 million being too much to pay. Voters want to know: Will the surface plan that McGinn wants actually cost us less? And regardless of which option prevails, both candidates need to explain how we're going to pay for it.

 

Comments (34) RSS

Oldest First Unregistered On Registered On Add a comment
1
Hey, you know what would be great? A debate! You know, the debate McGinn has called for and Nickels has avoided? That debate?
Posted by Quinn on August 11, 2009 at 4:26 PM
Greg 2
I am so sick of the Viaduct. Tear the fucker down and leave the rubble where it lies.
Posted by Greg on August 11, 2009 at 4:33 PM
gloomy gus 3
(Ring ring)
"Cary, it's Mike. Remember those numbers you offered to send me awhile back? Could you maybe walk me through them a couple times? Well, right now, if that's okay..."
Posted by gloomy gus on August 11, 2009 at 4:34 PM
4
Sandeep Kaushik:

[T]he campaign this evening will begin placing thousands of automated calls to Seattle residents to clear up the distortions and half truths about candidate Mike McGinn’s position on the Alaskan Way Viaduct.


Hey Sandeep: Just fuck off. I don't want your fucking calls interrupting my dinners.

Posted by I Got Nuthin' on August 11, 2009 at 4:37 PM
5
Tunnel Tunnel Tunnel Tunnel Tunnel Tunnel Tunnel

Oh, what, you want to talk specifics?

Tunnel Tunnel Tunnel Tunnel Tunnel Tunnel Tunnel

Not good enough?

Tunnel Tunnel Tunnel Tunnel Tunnel Tunnel Tunnel

...

Seattle voters don't like the tunnel. McGinn wins on this point. So, by all means Nickels, keep talking tunnel.
Posted by Timothy on August 11, 2009 at 4:42 PM
Sir Vic 6
Can we stop talking about how much this stuff will cost, please?
NO ONE knows how much any option will cost. The only thing we can be reasonably sure about is that any option will cost more than the politician currently selling it will admit.

The tunnel is the most forward thinking, best long term solution to the viaduct. It will take forever and cost a mint and a half. The surface option is a band-aid that will be useless by the time it is completed, much like the West Seattle Bridge (2 lanes?! WTF?!)

This is a question of what is the right decision for city growth, not what we can fit into what we think is the budget.

The leadership needed is not based on who can balance the books, because we know no one ever has or ever will. Leadership is getting the fucking thing started and a plan to finish it. This isn't WPPSS. This is actually needed.
Posted by Sir Vic on August 11, 2009 at 4:45 PM
meowmeowkitty 7
I voted for Mike just a few minutes ago.

Nickels lost me when he tried to kill nightlife.
Posted by meowmeowkitty on August 11, 2009 at 4:47 PM
8
Sir Vic...I agree with you, in part. Talking about costs has become a counter-productive way to move this City forward. Decide what is a core need, and build it as best as possible with professional oversight.

However, your idea that a Tunnel is a core need...a 1-mile stretch of roadway on what is otherwise ALREADY A SURFACE STREET (Aurora? 99 South?).

Read the actual studies that were done comparing the specifics, and the Surface option stacks up reasonable well. In addition, it frees resources to be used for other, more important core projects, like expanding Light Rail...perhaps a spur to West Seattle? Ballard?

There is nothing "forward thinking" about the Tunnel.
Posted by Timothy on August 11, 2009 at 4:49 PM
Joh 9
Nickles is giving name recognition to McGinn because he's terrified of Mallahan. he thinks he has a better chance of beating Mike.
Posted by Joh on August 11, 2009 at 4:57 PM
Mickymse 10
@6: What?

There is likely to be significantly higher cost overruns for a tunnel that is less than 5% engineered and requires the largest boring machine ever built than the surface plans which are more engineered and involve far less risk.

And exactly what does any of this have to do with the West Seattle Bridge, which has more than 2 lanes in each direction and has excess capacity for carrying the average traffic volumes on it every day?
Posted by Mickymse on August 11, 2009 at 4:59 PM
crazycatguy 11
I was wondering why the Stranger neglected to ask McGinn what he would do instead of building the tunnel - before you endorsed him. And how, if he is elected, will he stop the State from moving forward on it, since it is now (and always has been) their project? Would his first act as Mayor be a big, fat lawsuit against the state? How much would that cost? How long would it postpone any construction on replacing the viaduct? And finally, would the city win?
It seems to me like this guy is getting off easy, trying to win the primary with bogus charts while the Stranger just tosses a cream puff or two in his direction.
Posted by crazycatguy on August 11, 2009 at 5:00 PM
skye 12
nickels = deep bore
Posted by skye on August 11, 2009 at 5:13 PM
Gomez 13
Nickels' campaigners actually have a point: Wiping out the viaduct and going surface/transit without a replacement highway would cost this city more... just not in expenses. The resulting heavy traffic from the lack of arterials would stunt the area's economy and cost the city a ton of money in the long run, as smaller losses in the short snowball into much bigger opportunity losses over the long term.
Posted by Gomez http://gomezticator.livejournal.com on August 11, 2009 at 5:16 PM
14
@10, agreed. The WSB is rarely backed up except when there's an accident, and is in fact basically empty all day long. Most of the time spent sitting on it is due to access to I-5 or (sometimes) to the Northbound viaduct. I ride the bus twice a day and the WSB is never ever the cause or location of delays. (OTOH, baseball games cause a large part of downtown to seize up like stomach full of bad sushi.)
Posted by Westerson on August 11, 2009 at 5:17 PM
15

I wish I were 200 feet tall so I could squat on Seattle and take a giant dump.
Posted by I Hate Urbs on August 11, 2009 at 5:18 PM
Will in Seattle 16
Nothing more Seattle than a revote.

Especially since Seattle already voted against a Billionaires Tunnel in the first place.

Hey, if it's good for Mayor Greg to kill the monorail with a Fifth Columnist Revote, it's good to kill the Billionaires Tunnel with.

It ain't over until the bonds have been sold.
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on August 11, 2009 at 5:24 PM
Will in Seattle 17
As to the Billionaires Tunnel, here's just one simple FACT about it:

All the global warming emissions we have saved from all the projects at the City of Seattle for the past decade will be one-TENTH the emissions created by building and operating the 24/7/365 fans for the Billionaires Tunnel and that's not even counting the actual boring process and removal process and lighting in the tunnel.

It's just plain WRONG.
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on August 11, 2009 at 5:26 PM
DOUG. 18
$930 million could buy a million pretty cool bikes.
Posted by DOUG. http://www.dougsvotersguide.com on August 11, 2009 at 5:32 PM
Becky S. 19
Check out the Post Globe story for more information. Judy Clibborn does not back up the mayor's office:

Sorting out this whole Viaduct debate - http://www.seattlepostglobe.org/2009/08/…

Posted by Becky S. on August 11, 2009 at 5:58 PM
20
Dominic pretends to be this great architectural critic, yet he can't be more indifferant to whethere the viaduct exists or not. The benifit that the viaduct will have for downtown will more than pay for itself with increased taxes from develpment that will occure and increased tax receipts from increased assessed valuse of existing buildings. Of course you have to have the ability to think further than, say, 2 years in ahead.
Posted by asjlfs on August 11, 2009 at 6:09 PM
rtm 21
@7

an excellent point.

it also reminded me of two cities that do have pretty good nightlife and have somehow managed to stay relevant while using surface/transit instead of waterfront freeways - Vancouver BC and San Francisco.

And there is a little town down south that - 25 years ago - decided to take freeway money and spend it on transit instead. Portland, Oregon. I hear they have some nightlife too.
Posted by rtm on August 11, 2009 at 7:12 PM
22
So looking at the numbers... the Tunnel is the correct option.

Either way.. even if you hipsters do get McGinn voted in (and for the record I *hate* McCheese more too), either way ...no matter how the vote outcome happens... the tunnel is a done deal.

Done. Fini.

It has been decided...

Moving on...
Posted by Face it. Your opinion does not matter on August 11, 2009 at 7:43 PM
Hydraulic Valve 23
I voted for Mike.
Posted by Hydraulic Valve http://www.hshydraulic.com on August 11, 2009 at 8:29 PM
24
Any politician or prospective politician who uses robo calling to solicit my vote will never ever ever get a vote from me. Never.
Posted by Weekilter on August 11, 2009 at 10:20 PM
Will in Seattle 25
@24 - that's why Ian enjoyed phoning people in person for Mike tonight - he convinced his gf to volunteer with him on Thursday.

He says the tunnel thing is really resonating with a lot of on the fence voters.
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on August 11, 2009 at 10:51 PM
26
@ 22 - Wrong, we don't even have the money yet. The Monorail was a done deal too.
Posted by CMB on August 11, 2009 at 10:58 PM
27
Let's not kid ourselves - the tunnel with overruns will cost much much more for a marginal amount of benefit. Look at the Big Dig - it was only supposed to cost $2.8 billion total ($6.0 billion inflation adjusted). Now, today, it's going to cost MA over $22 billion.

At least with the surface option, there's only so much that can happen to screw that up.
Posted by sugarfree on August 12, 2009 at 8:44 AM
Andy_Squirrel 28
This is fucking confusing, of course this is my first time around giving a shit about local politics. My gut still tells me I prefer the tunnel but my blind love for the slog tells me I should probably vote for mike.

Has anyone factored in the knowledge that we will most likely have a real earthquake in Seattle in our lifetime? How would a tunnel vs viaduct hold up?

Whats up with mikes graph too? that thing sucks donkey dick. Why the fuck isn't there a column for how much the street/viaduct will cost? Won't most of this money spent on this project stay in the community too, going to contractors and their employees?

I also have this dream of riding my bike around that area of downtown and not hearing the whizzing of cars on the viaduct, that makes me happy knowing they are all underground....closer and closer to their final grave.

WHY CAN WE NEVER GET CLARITY!!!!?
Posted by Andy_Squirrel on August 12, 2009 at 9:47 AM
Gomez 29
Is there any way to cut the fatally high amount of CO2 emissions from Will's eternal blowhole?
Posted by Gomez http://gomezticator.livejournal.com on August 12, 2009 at 9:55 AM
Sir Vic 30
I'm guessing some of you weren't in the area when the WSB was completed. It was a laughing stock, as it cost a bundle and didn't help congestion. It was a total clusterfuck for the first decade, then folks decided to just work around it. The point was that it could never really be widened, so it could never increase its capacity. (And it was only 2 lanes each way when opened. They have squeezed it, with dangerous results.) They renamed it from WS Freeway to WS Bridge, because it really didn't operate as a freeway.

The tunnel is a LONG TERM plan. Think 50 years, not the 15 years of hell during its construction. Reclaiming the waterfront from industrial traffic is the ultimate goal, as 99 is the main arterial for the Port. Just eliminating the viaduct and forcing all that traffic, which will not be decreasing, onto "other routes" ignores the obvious fact that these "other routes" are already clusterfucked too! This is akin to the conservative thinking that reducing funding for welfare will result in fewer poor people. Reducing the supply does not always result in reducing demand. Ask your local dealer about that one.

And complaining that we don't have the money or that pollution will spike is useless speculation. We don't have the money for fucking sidewalks, but that doesn't prevent spending for SLUT. And it's pretty clear that humans are just going to have to adapt to pollution: we're not going to magically clean up the planet anytime soon.
Posted by Sir Vic on August 12, 2009 at 10:06 AM
31
Can the viaduct be saved or is that completely off the table? Seriously, this is one of the only things that keeps our city looking and acting like an actual city, and there's nothing like driving southbound on the bridge at night with the windows rolled down, smelling the ocean, spying on the rich artists living in the Bemis lofts, meandering through the progress of the train lots and sea cranes... Sigh. I love the viaduct.
Posted by Friend of 99 on August 12, 2009 at 11:53 AM
32
The key point to me is that even if we in Seattle end up paying more (as you say, doubtful considering that a big percentage of the tolls and the state gas tax money comes from Seattle wallets), surface/transit is the right thing to do for the planet.

Complicating the debate is a good tactic, and probably Nickels' only chance on this issue considering the unpopularity of the cut-and-cover tunnel in the first vote. I'll be sad and happy either way since I don't like the bypass but I'd enjoy less waterfront traffic.

Dan Bertolet covered a bunch of these issues, too:
http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/2009/07…
Posted by joshuadf on August 12, 2009 at 12:04 PM
33
@ 30 - Less than 10% of the Port's traffic uses SR 99. You can read this fact, and others about the tunnel at http://www.tunnelfacts.com/ enjoy.
Posted by CMB on August 12, 2009 at 12:58 PM
34
Its so funny to me that we can't even look as far south as Portland for inspiration. That is a city that is way more progressive and green than us (sadly) and they are doing things right. They are building transit, transit, transit, transit, transit, transit, and road. What are we thinking, we need to use the money that we have to do things more like Portland. We need street cars, street cards everywhere, and bike lanes, bike lanes separated from grade. We need green ways and comfortable, large spacious sidewalks. Fuck cars. People, especially in the west think thats the only logical way to get around. Thats your choice. What about giving me more options, and everyone more options. Thats what we really need to focus on, and that is exactly what McGinn is talking about. With out these options and with investing in a tunnel Seattle will be stuck in a car culture. Is that what we want, to be investing in the pony express just at the advent of e-mail. Hello people!
Posted by JoeGDWNTWN on August 12, 2009 at 2:02 PM

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