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News & ArtsThursday, August 6, 2009
At Large Deep Thought
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 11:14 AM
No one who leaves Date Young Women: For Men Over 35 sitting out on his coffee table is going to have much luck dating anybody.
7
According to Amazon that book was published in 1987 and repackaged for a second edition in 1992. One of the reviews at Amazon states:
Born before the attack on Pearl Harbor, this old-timer turned 18 when Eisenhower was President. John White, who writes under the name of R. Don Steele, should stick to his prunes and oatmeal instead of handing out hilariously outdated advice. Stuff like "a man is in control because he pays for the date" is not only wrong, it shows how his dating ideas were formed in the 1950s.
Oboy. With advice like that a man's gonna need a stick to beat off all the women coming after him.
Born before the attack on Pearl Harbor, this old-timer turned 18 when Eisenhower was President. John White, who writes under the name of R. Don Steele, should stick to his prunes and oatmeal instead of handing out hilariously outdated advice. Stuff like "a man is in control because he pays for the date" is not only wrong, it shows how his dating ideas were formed in the 1950s.
Oboy. With advice like that a man's gonna need a stick to beat off all the women coming after him.
8
Any man displaying coffee table books + a house that looks too clean and well decorated, screams failure with women or disinterest in them.
9
Any idiot reading a book like that should know to hide it if he going to have a woman over... like porn.
10
@7: Would those be the women coming after him with torches and pitchforks? Sorry, I couldn't resist.
14
Dan, we're surprised you can't muster more sympathy for the plight of an aging past-his-prime guy feeling a little desparate and insecure.
15
# 12 Apparently LC's book on seducing women includes advice like "Leave your house filthy: wimmin like to clena up after you" and "Don't decorate nothing - wimmins like to mark out their owm territory."
17
Loveschild's book on how to seduce women = anything by Ann Coulter.
Also, what are you implying (#8)? Coffee table books are gay? Being clean is gay? Only gay people have decorating sense? Being gay, I'd like to think this is true, but it's not. And certainly not deserving of an "LOL" with not one, not two, but three exclamation points.
Also, what are you implying (#8)? Coffee table books are gay? Being clean is gay? Only gay people have decorating sense? Being gay, I'd like to think this is true, but it's not. And certainly not deserving of an "LOL" with not one, not two, but three exclamation points.
18
@15..' because if your house is too orderly and clean, women will think you're gay.' - loveschild
19
Oh and Dan, partially in response to #14, but mostly of my own volition, that screencap of your youtube video a few days ago with the ironic dating-christian-singles-ad was Hot. Super Hot.
21
@20 - that'd actually be great. A whole book of "well, you bought this book... you're probably fucked."
23
The interesting thing is that people like Steele have contempt for and prey on men who have contempt for and (aspire to) prey on women.
25
browse through most M seeking F personals you'll see a lot of delusional, creepy middle-aged men looking to meet women only in the 18 -24 range. someone in an earlier thread commented on the sense of entitlement some men feel to "having" a woman. it's a deeply, deeply disturbing phenomenon.
26
What's a coffee table?
That said, my last gf is/was ten years younger, so maybe I shouldn't venture an opinion on this, even if I prefer women closer to my age.
That said, my last gf is/was ten years younger, so maybe I shouldn't venture an opinion on this, even if I prefer women closer to my age.
27
There's an illusion in online dating that it's like a grocery store...you can just go in and take home the "item" you want, as long as you're willing to pay for it. I don't blame people for hoping to meet some sort of ideal, but it's really unrealistic to think you can just tick off a list of standards and you'll be sure to find someone who fits the bill.
When I was dating online, it was amazing how many men my age were limiting their searches to 18-24 year old women. And the men who WERE looking for women my age were mostly 15 years older than me. I once had a guy 25 years older contact me.
I'd say easily 75% had the upper age limit for their dates listed as 5 or more years their junior, and 10% of those were looking for women 10-15 years younger.
I'm not saying you can't find happiness with someone significantly older/younger, it's just that listing that age difference as one of your primary goals is off-putting, to say the least.
When I was dating online, it was amazing how many men my age were limiting their searches to 18-24 year old women. And the men who WERE looking for women my age were mostly 15 years older than me. I once had a guy 25 years older contact me.
I'd say easily 75% had the upper age limit for their dates listed as 5 or more years their junior, and 10% of those were looking for women 10-15 years younger.
I'm not saying you can't find happiness with someone significantly older/younger, it's just that listing that age difference as one of your primary goals is off-putting, to say the least.
28
@26, my ex-husband was 11 years older than me. I guess the difference is he didn't come on to me...I was infatuated with him and hung around till he noticed me and we started talking. He wasn't looking for a "younger" woman, and I didn't think he was that much older than me...he looked maybe 5 years older.
It's the creepiness of someone whose goal is to nab a young 'un that is freaky.
It's the creepiness of someone whose goal is to nab a young 'un that is freaky.
29
Age difference - it's the last big taboo in our (currently, at least) women-constructed world that people are perfectly comfortable condemning.
50 years ago, interracial dating/marriage was "just wrong". People didn't even try to justify it, it was just fundamentally considered bad. And if there had been online dating then, maybe people would have said that "I thought that (interracial) couple was ok, because they weren't looking for people of different races. It's the creepiness of a white woman whose goal is to nab a black man ('un?) that is freaky."
20 years ago society thought the same thing about gay people. And yes, I know that war's not over, and I'm doing my part, but at least I think you can find big parts of mainstream society who don't say "it's just wrong, I don't have to justify my opinions because they are simply factually correct.."
Today, however, we are perfectly comfortable putting down couples with an age difference. He's just looking for young pussy, or to get his ego stroked. She has daddy issues, or wants his money. Well maybe, just as we now don't just say "she's just looking for big black dick," or "he's enjoying a little brown sugar" - maybe it's wrong and even offensive to say such things. Yet we persist.
Why? Because older men and younger women *threaten the societal power-lock that women have established over men*. Older women teach younger women (and society at large) that it's wrong, so that middle-aged men can remain as powerless as they were in their younger years. It's a taboo created to negate the fundamental power shift that comes because men get more attractive, more powerful, and more desirable as they age, and women don't. In short, this really pisses women off and there is no greater manifestation of this than a mixed-age couple. So we put them down, prima facie, it's just disgusting/creepy/freaky, no justification or examination of the facts required.
Ok, this has nothing to do with weirdos who shoot up gyms or publish dumbass books. They *are* just fundamentally wrong. Sodini is a horrifying societal outlier from whom we shouldn't try to draw any relationship lessons. And Steele is just making a profit off of scared, beaten down men who can't think for themselves. Let's look at them for what they are, and not try to draw any conclusions about age-diverse relationships from them.
Oh yes, my g/f of 2 years is 29 years younger than me. We get along great, and sure, we each enjoy everything that the other has to offer (isn't that fundamentally right in some way?). I get along well with her dad, who is 5 years younger than me. Yes, we get stared at sometimes, just like a mixed race or gay couple might have years ago. But what do we care?
More...
50 years ago, interracial dating/marriage was "just wrong". People didn't even try to justify it, it was just fundamentally considered bad. And if there had been online dating then, maybe people would have said that "I thought that (interracial) couple was ok, because they weren't looking for people of different races. It's the creepiness of a white woman whose goal is to nab a black man ('un?) that is freaky."
20 years ago society thought the same thing about gay people. And yes, I know that war's not over, and I'm doing my part, but at least I think you can find big parts of mainstream society who don't say "it's just wrong, I don't have to justify my opinions because they are simply factually correct.."
Today, however, we are perfectly comfortable putting down couples with an age difference. He's just looking for young pussy, or to get his ego stroked. She has daddy issues, or wants his money. Well maybe, just as we now don't just say "she's just looking for big black dick," or "he's enjoying a little brown sugar" - maybe it's wrong and even offensive to say such things. Yet we persist.
Why? Because older men and younger women *threaten the societal power-lock that women have established over men*. Older women teach younger women (and society at large) that it's wrong, so that middle-aged men can remain as powerless as they were in their younger years. It's a taboo created to negate the fundamental power shift that comes because men get more attractive, more powerful, and more desirable as they age, and women don't. In short, this really pisses women off and there is no greater manifestation of this than a mixed-age couple. So we put them down, prima facie, it's just disgusting/creepy/freaky, no justification or examination of the facts required.
Ok, this has nothing to do with weirdos who shoot up gyms or publish dumbass books. They *are* just fundamentally wrong. Sodini is a horrifying societal outlier from whom we shouldn't try to draw any relationship lessons. And Steele is just making a profit off of scared, beaten down men who can't think for themselves. Let's look at them for what they are, and not try to draw any conclusions about age-diverse relationships from them.
Oh yes, my g/f of 2 years is 29 years younger than me. We get along great, and sure, we each enjoy everything that the other has to offer (isn't that fundamentally right in some way?). I get along well with her dad, who is 5 years younger than me. Yes, we get stared at sometimes, just like a mixed race or gay couple might have years ago. But what do we care?
30
@28 It isn't that it is automatically creepy or weird for a man to have a relationship with a woman significantly younger. The issue is more that for an older man to be specifically targeting young women to the exclusion of others as is promoted by the book is creepy. There is a power imbalance in most(not all) relationships between a younger person and an older person. This is the result of the older person having much more life experience and therefore (generally) more capable of negotiating the mental and emotional issues that come up in a relationship. Not to mention the usual disparity in income and the dependance that often results.
I'm not knocking your relationship as maybe you are a good guy that just happened to end up with a much younger partner but generally the type of guy that only wants a younger woman is a guy intimidated by strong-willed and confident women. There is a reason Dan speaks often of the 'campsite rule'...
I'm not knocking your relationship as maybe you are a good guy that just happened to end up with a much younger partner but generally the type of guy that only wants a younger woman is a guy intimidated by strong-willed and confident women. There is a reason Dan speaks often of the 'campsite rule'...
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