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News & ArtsWednesday, August 5, 2009
Sports / Religion Do They Call It a "Pigskin" in Germany Too? Is That the Issue?
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 8:29 AM
From the religious lunacy desk:
An anthem sung by fans of the German football club FC Schalke 04 has drawn protests from Muslims because of its reference to the Prophet Muhammad. The Gelsenkirchen club, which plays in Germany's top league, the Bundesliga, has asked an Islam expert to consider whether the song might be insulting. The third verse contains the words: "Muhammad was a prophet who understood nothing about football.""But of all the lovely colours he chose [Schalke's] blue and white," it goes.
The club has received hundreds of e-mails from angry Muslims recently, since Turkish media carried reports about the song. Police in Gelsenkirchen, in the industrial Ruhr region of western Germany, say they are taking the Muslim complaints very seriously.
Uh... gee. It's hard to interpret that line in FC Schalke 04's anthem as anything other than a compliment. It doesn't say Muhammad was a pedophile and a terrorist and we're all going to draw pictures of him before the game starts. Muhammad was a prophet but he wasn't Allah—right? Which means that Muhammad wasn't (supposedly) omniscient, and, therefore, couldn't see football coming, right? The song basically says, "Hey, Muhammad liked the same colors we do! Right on!" Again, hard to see the insult. But we are, of course, talking about Islam, a religion characterized by nursed grievances, imagined slights, and the cowing of (supposedly) free societies with implicit or explicit threats of violence.
1
it would never occur to american sports fans to sing a song like that. muhammad just isn't on our radar.
4
Perhaps there are some Turkish folks in Germany who take their football really seriously, almost to the point of religion. I think it would be like going to rural America and saying Jesus understood nothing about football. That would be blasphemy.
6
You know what this means, Dan - It's time to put up the Mohammad cartoons again!
Goddamned goat-fuckers.
Goddamned goat-fuckers.
8
Sure about the Muhammad stuff. But I would be more comfortable with the last sentence if it weren't in passive voice and, in moving it into active, it weren't so generalizing about Islamic belief.
9
It would seem from the snippet of the song that we're given that it is more complementary than offensive. Now, if it said that Muhammad's chosen colors were those of FC Schalke's greatest rival (and every Football Club has one team (at least) that they consider to be their sworn foes), then THAT would be meant as being offensive to the religious figure in question.
Like @5 said, by European Football standards, this is very tame indeed.
Like @5 said, by European Football standards, this is very tame indeed.
11
I'm guessing that this is considered to be taking the prophet's name in vain, or something like that. Seems like they have strict rules about how and when you can talk about him.
12
i would argue that these characteristics really have a whole lot more to do with ignorance, lack of education and totalitarianism rather than the dominant brand of religion.
a religion characterized by nursed grievances, imagined slights, and the cowing of (supposedly) free societies with implicit or explicit threats of violence
i would argue that these characteristics really have a whole lot more to do with ignorance, lack of education and totalitarianism rather than the dominant brand of religion.
14
Oh please. Look at the context in which this happened. Western Europe's attitude and laws against Muslims makes America look like it embraces Islam.
Just a few weeks ago in Germany, a Muslim woman was stabbed to death 18 times in a COURTROOM because she wore a hijab, and the German police shot her HUSBAND who tried to save her.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul…
Would you trust the intentions of, say, an Alabama football team if they had a song referencing gays? What if it was just off an vicious anti-gay murder in an Alabama courtroom where the police shot the gay victim's husband who tried to help?
Just a few weeks ago in Germany, a Muslim woman was stabbed to death 18 times in a COURTROOM because she wore a hijab, and the German police shot her HUSBAND who tried to save her.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul…
Would you trust the intentions of, say, an Alabama football team if they had a song referencing gays? What if it was just off an vicious anti-gay murder in an Alabama courtroom where the police shot the gay victim's husband who tried to help?
16
Yeah, Dan. EVERY SINGLE Muslim person out there nurses grievances, imagines slights, and cows free societies with implicit or explicit threats of violence. All of 'em.
17
Holy crap, Lizzie @14! This was the first I heard of this incident. A pregnant witness stabbed to death in a courtroom?
"The general secretaries of both the Central Council of Jews and the Central Council of Muslims, Stephen Kramer and Aiman Mazyek, who on Monday made a joint visit to the bedside of Sherbini's husband, spoke of the 'inexplicably sparse' reactions from both media and politicians."
I'm floored.
"The general secretaries of both the Central Council of Jews and the Central Council of Muslims, Stephen Kramer and Aiman Mazyek, who on Monday made a joint visit to the bedside of Sherbini's husband, spoke of the 'inexplicably sparse' reactions from both media and politicians."
I'm floored.
18
#16 - no, but every single muslim adheres to a set of (frankly ridiculous) beliefs that encourage exactly the kind of behavior Dan describes. So do Christians, by the way. Losing the belief in gods, demons, and other fairy tales, of whatever provenance, drastically increases the chances of engaging in rational behavior and fitting into a free, secular, non-totalitarian/theocratic society. Sorry, but it's true.
19
I didn't say all Muslims do X, Y, and Z. I said the religion, at this moment in time (they had a much better 17th Century than Christian Europe did), is characterized by nursed grievances, imagined slights, and murderous violence. I would describe contemporary American Catholicism as being characterized by pedophile priests, sexual abuse, and Bill Donohue's efforts to remake American Catholicism in the image of Iranian Islam. That doesn't mean *all* American Catholics are pedophile priests or Bill Donohue.
Thank you for playing Slog.
Thank you for playing Slog.
20
@12, you just described religion though. ignorance, lack of education, totalitarianism...that's religion, isn't it? no specific one, just in general. i was going to point out that dan's "nursed wounds, imagined slights, and the cowing of (supposedly) free societies with implicit or explicit threats of violence" is a thing with all religions, islamic or otherwise.
21
I am guessing that the issue is something akin to using Muhammad's name in vain. Despite the fact that it is a written as a compliment, meaning if Muhammad was a footballer their team would be his.
I'm not sure if Muhammad would be considered omniscient, he was more like Moses, Elijah, or John the Baptist than Christ. The traits of being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent are usually attributed to God or Allah, to my understanding, but I could be wrong.
I'm not sure if Muhammad would be considered omniscient, he was more like Moses, Elijah, or John the Baptist than Christ. The traits of being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent are usually attributed to God or Allah, to my understanding, but I could be wrong.
22
14 -- In fairness to Western Europeans on this particular story, the attacker was a Russian immigrant, not a native German.
23
#22: The outrage has nothing to do with just one murder (or one football song, or one Dutch cartoon). Murders happen all the time for all kinds of reasons. The fact that the German police "accidently" shot El-Sherbini's (Egyptian) husband instead of her (white) attacker obviously doesn't help things, but the outrage is because Germany (and other western European countries) are bastions of Islamophobia and the handling of the murder has been ridiculous.
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2009/956/eg4.…
http://www.altmuslim.com/a/a/a/3183/
Nobody reasonable is defending the oppressive and violent laws in Muslim nations in North Africa, the Middle East, or central Asia -- or the oppressive and violent laws in Christian nations in Central/South America, the Carribbean, or Sub-Sarahan Africa. But we are talking about the West (America and Europe). In these places, anti-Muslim violence and racism is a very serious problem and it is not "nursed grievances" or "imagined slights."
The fact that Western media reports on complaints against a football song and not the protests against Germany's handling of this anti-Muslim murder (and shooting by the German police) is one of the serious symptoms of the problem.
More...
As part of the continuing reactions to the fatal stabbing of an Egyptian woman, Marwa El-Sherbini, as she gave evidence in a courtroom in the German city of Dresden a fortnight ago, the German prosecutor- general this week issued a ban on publishing details about her death at the hands of her Russian-German attacker.
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2009/956/eg4.…
Moreover, the attack on el-Sherbini occurred just weeks after President Sarkozy of France described the burqa as a symbol of subservience and suggested that the Parliament may want to consider banning Muslim women in France from wearing it in public. Sarkozy’s focus on the burqa melded into the attack on the headscarved el-Sherbini, helping to dub her the “hijab martyr” and the whole incident as indicative of European – or Western – hatred for Islam and its practices.
http://www.altmuslim.com/a/a/a/3183/
Nobody reasonable is defending the oppressive and violent laws in Muslim nations in North Africa, the Middle East, or central Asia -- or the oppressive and violent laws in Christian nations in Central/South America, the Carribbean, or Sub-Sarahan Africa. But we are talking about the West (America and Europe). In these places, anti-Muslim violence and racism is a very serious problem and it is not "nursed grievances" or "imagined slights."
The fact that Western media reports on complaints against a football song and not the protests against Germany's handling of this anti-Muslim murder (and shooting by the German police) is one of the serious symptoms of the problem.
24
Overlooked in this story is the fact that football is a central point in most contemporary European cultures. The shifting demographics of Europe towards a larger percentage of the population being Muslim is a paradigm shift for many Europeans. In this case, it's being dealt with through the cultural lens of football. A much better option than how it was handled in the middle ages. I dare you to discuss the question, are these specific Muslims being intolerant of European culture?
26
"characterized by nursed grievances, imagined slights, and the cowing of (supposedly) free societies with implicit or explicit threats of violence."
seems like a pretty good summation of being a European Soccer fan as well...
seems like a pretty good summation of being a European Soccer fan as well...
27
But we are, of course, talking about Islam, a religion characterized by nursed grievances, imagined slights,
Right, because Christianity is *nothing* like that.
Right, because Christianity is *nothing* like that.
28
"Losing the belief in gods, demons, and other fairy tales, of whatever provenance, drastically increases the chances of engaging in rational behavior and fitting into a free, secular, non-totalitarian/theocratic society. Sorry, but it's true."
Yeah, because you presented evidence for your biases. Let me play the race card. Evangelical atheism is the whitest shit in the world as evidence by the fact that they totally ignore the huge role that religion played in the moral progress of the united states in the 20th century civil rights movement.
Yeah, because you presented evidence for your biases. Let me play the race card. Evangelical atheism is the whitest shit in the world as evidence by the fact that they totally ignore the huge role that religion played in the moral progress of the united states in the 20th century civil rights movement.
29
The people on here conflating Christianity and Islam are nutty. Are you really incapable of distinguishing the particular brands of nuttiness both encourage, both in substance and in numbers?
31
You know, 30, if you looked at the number of people who have been killed in the name of religion over the last 2,000 years, I suspect the Christians have killed way more people than the Muslims have.
32
"The people on here conflating Christianity and Islam are nutty. Are you really incapable of distinguishing the particular brands of nuttiness both encourage, both in substance and in numbers?"
hmmm...
One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."
Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."
Mr Bush, who became a born-again Christian at 40, is one of the most overtly religious leaders to occupy the White House, a fact which brings him much support in middle America.
hmmm...
One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."
Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."
Mr Bush, who became a born-again Christian at 40, is one of the most overtly religious leaders to occupy the White House, a fact which brings him much support in middle America.
34
#27, when you think you might be interested in taking part in a conversation on a blog, it's always a good idea to read the entire thread first.
Then you won't come off as silly.
Then you won't come off as silly.
35
@19
Dan- way to deflect a perfectly legitimate point about your original post by rationalizing your obvious prejudice with a transparent straw man argument. Just because you can delude yourself into thinking that something doesn't count as bigotry so long as it's vaguely framed, doesn't make your ignorant, hateful, and simplistic characterization of Islam any more acceptable to those of us capable of critical thought. You're welcome to think and say whatever you want about Islam, but when someone calls you to task for something you say, don't be a spineless jerk and pretend you 'didn't mean it like that.'
Dan- way to deflect a perfectly legitimate point about your original post by rationalizing your obvious prejudice with a transparent straw man argument. Just because you can delude yourself into thinking that something doesn't count as bigotry so long as it's vaguely framed, doesn't make your ignorant, hateful, and simplistic characterization of Islam any more acceptable to those of us capable of critical thought. You're welcome to think and say whatever you want about Islam, but when someone calls you to task for something you say, don't be a spineless jerk and pretend you 'didn't mean it like that.'
36
The terrace songs in England can be far worse than this "profane" use of Mohammed, but then again we are asking people of faith to be reasonable and understanding. Faith= suspension of reason. and humor. Personally, I've always been more of a Stuttgart fan, but I may have to cheer on Schalke this upcoming campaign for this gem alone. It's not an insult, it's cheeky humor. Lighten up.
"Ohhhh (insert name) ---with a packet of sweets and a cheeky smile, you know he is a pedophile...."
"Ohhhh (insert name) ---with a packet of sweets and a cheeky smile, you know he is a pedophile...."
37
Honestly, I have to say that Germany in general has less of a problem with Islamic culture than it does with Turks. They certainly have less of a problem with Islam than do the Americans, if only because they go way out of their way to avoid another "my God has a bigger dick than your God" war. They still haven't lived down the last one.
Soccer, just as an aside, is damn near it's own religion there. I've seen people get into some pretty ridiculous arguments about it.
@Lizzy (re:post 14)
You're not looking at the whole situation with the courtroom stabbing. Major problems. For some more perspective, try looking here. http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/inde…
Soccer, just as an aside, is damn near it's own religion there. I've seen people get into some pretty ridiculous arguments about it.
@Lizzy (re:post 14)
You're not looking at the whole situation with the courtroom stabbing. Major problems. For some more perspective, try looking here. http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/inde…
38
31, your suspicions are incorrect. Islam, unlike Christianity, is not a religion of peace.
Regardless of the acts of those claiming to be Christians, one cannot in good faith murder (or rape, or torture, or commit other acts of violence) in Jesus' name with His blessing. Christianity is a religion of peace, among other things, meaning that anyone who claims to perform violence in the name of Jesus Christ does so in direct contrast and conflict with His teachings.
The same, sadly, cannot be said of Islam. Violence in the name of Islam is intrinsic to the belief system of its adherents. Their prophet Muhammed(sp?) preached murder and other acts of violence against non-Muslims, teachings and traditions many Muslims embrace and act upon to this day (e.g., I recall coordinated incidents on September 11, 2001 conducted in the name of Islam and their prophet, among other examples...). Muslims have very likely killed more Crusaders, other Christians, Jews and even their own, historically speaking, and they likely have much more blood on their hands (but not their conscience...).
Besides, the Crusaders were specifically Catholic, which has nothing to do with the large numbers of us Christians who reject Catholicism.
...An entirely different issue is the nature of the complaint about taking Mohammed's name in vain. This paper, and many (most?) of you, could not care less that taking Jesus' name in vain is a cultural norm in our society. It doubtless reflects as much a rejection of Christ as it does free speech. But take Mohammed's name in vain?! Suddenly the PC crowd is up in arms about the feelings of the Muslims. Classic hypocrisy.
Regardless of the acts of those claiming to be Christians, one cannot in good faith murder (or rape, or torture, or commit other acts of violence) in Jesus' name with His blessing. Christianity is a religion of peace, among other things, meaning that anyone who claims to perform violence in the name of Jesus Christ does so in direct contrast and conflict with His teachings.
The same, sadly, cannot be said of Islam. Violence in the name of Islam is intrinsic to the belief system of its adherents. Their prophet Muhammed(sp?) preached murder and other acts of violence against non-Muslims, teachings and traditions many Muslims embrace and act upon to this day (e.g., I recall coordinated incidents on September 11, 2001 conducted in the name of Islam and their prophet, among other examples...). Muslims have very likely killed more Crusaders, other Christians, Jews and even their own, historically speaking, and they likely have much more blood on their hands (but not their conscience...).
Besides, the Crusaders were specifically Catholic, which has nothing to do with the large numbers of us Christians who reject Catholicism.
...An entirely different issue is the nature of the complaint about taking Mohammed's name in vain. This paper, and many (most?) of you, could not care less that taking Jesus' name in vain is a cultural norm in our society. It doubtless reflects as much a rejection of Christ as it does free speech. But take Mohammed's name in vain?! Suddenly the PC crowd is up in arms about the feelings of the Muslims. Classic hypocrisy.
39
@38
your comment is one of the most ignorant pieces of shit I've read in a very long time. You clearly have no knowledge of Islam outside of the garbled hate-mongering nonsense you've picked up from members of the deranged christian right. Your characterization of Christianity as a religion of peace that would never condone such atrocities as murder and rape tells me that you're either willfully blinding yourself to the realities of biblical teachings, or you've never actually read the fucking bible you claim to follow. Take for instance the story of Lot and the visiting angels: the only moral I see in this particular gem is that it is sinful to rape an angel, while offering up your daughters to be gang-raped by the people of the town is righteous and good. Tell me how that fits into your rosy view of a religion of peace? In summation, let me just say: Fuck you, and fuck your self-righteous, faux-christian dogma.
your comment is one of the most ignorant pieces of shit I've read in a very long time. You clearly have no knowledge of Islam outside of the garbled hate-mongering nonsense you've picked up from members of the deranged christian right. Your characterization of Christianity as a religion of peace that would never condone such atrocities as murder and rape tells me that you're either willfully blinding yourself to the realities of biblical teachings, or you've never actually read the fucking bible you claim to follow. Take for instance the story of Lot and the visiting angels: the only moral I see in this particular gem is that it is sinful to rape an angel, while offering up your daughters to be gang-raped by the people of the town is righteous and good. Tell me how that fits into your rosy view of a religion of peace? In summation, let me just say: Fuck you, and fuck your self-righteous, faux-christian dogma.
40
@38: You haven't met many Muslims, have you? Or, it would appear, many "Christians". Cute that you say that the Catholics don't really count as christian.
http://www.thelocal.de/sport/20090805-21…|utmccn=(organic)|utmcmd=organic|utmctr=youth%2520mobility%2520visa%2520germany%2520canada&__utmv=-&__utmk=211893268
The Central Council of Muslims in Germany have refused to see the song as "blasphemous."
"The way it's phrased could anger some," conceded the Council's secretary general Aiman Mazyek, noting that the populations of both Gelsenkirchen and the Ruhr Valley comprised largely of the Turkish community.
"We're not demanding that the song be banned," he added.
http://www.thelocal.de/sport/20090805-21…|utmccn=(organic)|utmcmd=organic|utmctr=youth%2520mobility%2520visa%2520germany%2520canada&__utmv=-&__utmk=211893268
The Central Council of Muslims in Germany have refused to see the song as "blasphemous."
"The way it's phrased could anger some," conceded the Council's secretary general Aiman Mazyek, noting that the populations of both Gelsenkirchen and the Ruhr Valley comprised largely of the Turkish community.
"We're not demanding that the song be banned," he added.
41
"i would argue that these characteristics really have a whole lot more to do with ignorance, lack of education and totalitarianism rather than the dominant brand of religion."
I recommend reading from Hitchen's "The Portable Atheist," where there is an excellent review of msulimn nonsense: Ibn Warraq's "why I am not a muslim" and "the totalitarian nature of islam." The last chapter is from a somali muslim woman who escapes first physically then mentally from islam, also good. The ignorance, lack of education, and totalitarianism are fundamental to the faith. The nice stuff about love and nonviolence was from Muhammed's early writings and contradicts later stuff in the Koran; scholars have a doctrine which explains that the later stuff corrects the earlier. The Koran specifically promised loot to islamic mauraders and does not have a philosophy of coexistance. There is a greater emphasis on hell and its tortures and total submission, plus a weird determinism that suggests god may just want to torture you eternally, just because... "the merciful, the compassionate" indeed.
I recommend reading from Hitchen's "The Portable Atheist," where there is an excellent review of msulimn nonsense: Ibn Warraq's "why I am not a muslim" and "the totalitarian nature of islam." The last chapter is from a somali muslim woman who escapes first physically then mentally from islam, also good. The ignorance, lack of education, and totalitarianism are fundamental to the faith. The nice stuff about love and nonviolence was from Muhammed's early writings and contradicts later stuff in the Koran; scholars have a doctrine which explains that the later stuff corrects the earlier. The Koran specifically promised loot to islamic mauraders and does not have a philosophy of coexistance. There is a greater emphasis on hell and its tortures and total submission, plus a weird determinism that suggests god may just want to torture you eternally, just because... "the merciful, the compassionate" indeed.
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