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News & ArtsTuesday, August 4, 2009
Savage Love Savage Love Letter of the Day
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 5:11 PM
I would definitely benefit from your input. I am a 28 year old guy who has been dating a 21 year old for the past month. I met her through a dating website and followed the standard process... exchanged a few emails, moved onto to IM conversations then phone conversations until we met in person. To this point everything has been going well; we really enjoy each others company, we are attracted to one another and I can see her becoming my girlfriend and possibly more.After my first conversation with her through IM, out of boredom, I Googled her screen name and what came up surprised me. It turned out that she had a profile on the same site looking for a woman. I have no problem with her being bi, but I figured that was information I should let her disclose at her discretion, but to date she has not brought it up. My questions are: Is she obligated to disclose it? Is there a point when I should bring it up? Do I have a right to bring it up? I don't think I did anything wrong by Googling her screen name or did I?
I would love to see what you think.
Bi... Curious?
She is obligated to disclose the fact that she's bisexual—and she's obligated to disclose it sooner rather than later. If she doesn't cop to the bisexual stuff when you guys start having more in-depth conversations about your romantic and sexual histories, go ahead and bring it up. You know what you know, BC, you can't pretend you don't know it, and you only know it because she made the information public.
1
Isn't it just assumed that when you meet someone new they'll google you and you'll google them? Its no longer inappropriate, right?
2
What I want to know is why this gal thought it necessary to have separate profiles for finding a male and female mate? Can't she just state that she's looking for Men and Women on one profile, and cover all her bases?!?
3
Am I just dense for not understanding why this is necessary to disclose? I figure it would basically be under the same category as 'how many people you've had sex' with; e.g. be honest if asked, but private information otherwise. Unless she's the type of bisexual that has to be with one partner of each sex to be happy, in which case it'd be a good idea to let B...C here know that he's in for a swingin' good time early on. Amiright?
4
I kind of agree with devilsmoke. Unless she intends to somehow involve her interest in women in the relationship, it should absolutely be up to her when and whether she brings it up. But he wasn't wrong to google, and now he should be free to bring it up with her. Dan, I love you and your column, but you can be really dense on bi issues. Especially when it comes to women...
5
I can see why she wouldn't want to mention it, and I can also see why she'd have separate profiles (although girlfriend probably should have considered a different screen name). When straight guys find out a girl is bi, they get incredibly stupid. She may not want to field the threesome request just yet.
6
@2: Just as knowing a woman is bisexual can have a stupefying affect on hetero guys, it can also have a run-the-other-way affect on some lesbians. Having two different profiles makes sense. However, I totally agree with Dan that the girlfriend-to-be needs to bring up her sexuality by or before the dating relationship reaches the DTR stage, and that he has every right to bring it up himself if she doesn't mention it.
And yeah, googling someone is to be expected, especially when you meet someone online. Everyone should google themselves periodically, to make sure whatever comes up is something they wouldn't mind a potential lover (or potential employer, for that matter) seeing.
And yeah, googling someone is to be expected, especially when you meet someone online. Everyone should google themselves periodically, to make sure whatever comes up is something they wouldn't mind a potential lover (or potential employer, for that matter) seeing.
7
She's not only bisexual, she's probably sleeping with a few teenage boys as well, you schtump. You think you were going to give her a box of candy and some roses and get a 21 year old fox to yourself? Dude, you'll be the one paying for the drugs, booze and breast implants while she goes off and has non-stop sex with anyone but you.
This is 2009.
Deal with it.
This is 2009.
Deal with it.
8
First, Googling someone new is more-or-less standard operating procedure these days, so no problem there.
Second, Dan, this is one case where I disagree with you. Simply being bi does not warrant disclosure. It only requires disclosure if she intends to also pursue women while she dates him. If she ignores her attractions to women while she is having a relationship with him, and devotes herself entirely to the relationship with him, then why disclose it? I am not under any obligation to disclose fantasies I might have, but don't act on, to my partner. Why should she?
Second, Dan, this is one case where I disagree with you. Simply being bi does not warrant disclosure. It only requires disclosure if she intends to also pursue women while she dates him. If she ignores her attractions to women while she is having a relationship with him, and devotes herself entirely to the relationship with him, then why disclose it? I am not under any obligation to disclose fantasies I might have, but don't act on, to my partner. Why should she?
9
I don't get why bisexuality should be mandatory to disclose, either. I mean, I can't really imagine being in a relationship without mentioning to my partner something so fundamental about myself... but perhaps she doesn't feel that way.
I don't want to be one of the people complaining about your supposed hatred for bi people (I know you don't really hate us) but stuff like this is just weird. Care to offer any more explanation as to why you think she's obligated to say that she's bi?
I don't want to be one of the people complaining about your supposed hatred for bi people (I know you don't really hate us) but stuff like this is just weird. Care to offer any more explanation as to why you think she's obligated to say that she's bi?
10
If their sexual histories come up, then yes, it would be dishonest to leave it out and a lie by ommision, but as it is, I take it things haven't gotten that far yet. It is best to get those things out in the open sooner rather than later--that I agree on--but saying "Hi, I'm bisexual. How are you?" isn't necessary, either.
11
I agree that she shouldn't have to disclose it right away, but from personal experience I can say that sometimes it can be a good idea anyway. I disclosed too late to a guy once and for him, the fact that I like girls too was a deal breaker. Obviously, the dating had to end at that point. It was a total bummer because I'd already developed feelings for a guy who, as it turned out, found my sexual orientation "perverse".
This isn't the situation here, because the guy said he was okay with it, but I think it is an argument for disclosing, and sooner rather than later, as Dan said.
This isn't the situation here, because the guy said he was okay with it, but I think it is an argument for disclosing, and sooner rather than later, as Dan said.
13
Not a damn thing wrong with googling her. She's probably googled him too. Hell, I've never used a dating service, but if I ever do, I'll probably google the other person before I even answer an email.
Yes, straight guys, more often than not, become "frat boy" when they learn their girl is bi. Lesbians, more often than not, become cautious. And those are natural, understandable responses. That's life.
#9 said: "I can't really imagine being in a relationship without mentioning to my partner something so fundamental about myself."
But they aren't partners yet. They aren't in love, correct? He's only just now considering her as girlfriend material. Does she consider him the same? It's early yet. There are probably a lot of fundamental things she's not mentioned yet. Him too.
This is a difficult one because we don't know enough. I wish this was a podcast in which Dan could call this guy and ask him what they've been talking about. How serious have their conversations been. Is this just fun and sex?
My rule has always been that if he or she doesn't already know my orientation, I spill when we're discussing all the other BIG HUGE things about ourselves: religious beliefs, children, finances, monogamy, past arrests, STDs, crazy-ass family, etc.
It's for those types of conversations. The big ones. The scary ones. The important ones. The ones that may lead to a break up. The one that will let you know that this person you're getting serious about might actually be safe to get serious about.
If they've had this conversation(s), and she's not disclosed, I would advise that something is wrong here. But if they're still in the early, fun, NSA stage, she's probably not even thinking about it.
There's one other possibility, and then I'll shut up. If she is simply curious, if she's not tested her attraction to women yet, and this relationship is going as well as the writer says, she may be thinking herself that it was all simply curiosity and therefore, not worth bringing up.
More...
Yes, straight guys, more often than not, become "frat boy" when they learn their girl is bi. Lesbians, more often than not, become cautious. And those are natural, understandable responses. That's life.
#9 said: "I can't really imagine being in a relationship without mentioning to my partner something so fundamental about myself."
But they aren't partners yet. They aren't in love, correct? He's only just now considering her as girlfriend material. Does she consider him the same? It's early yet. There are probably a lot of fundamental things she's not mentioned yet. Him too.
This is a difficult one because we don't know enough. I wish this was a podcast in which Dan could call this guy and ask him what they've been talking about. How serious have their conversations been. Is this just fun and sex?
My rule has always been that if he or she doesn't already know my orientation, I spill when we're discussing all the other BIG HUGE things about ourselves: religious beliefs, children, finances, monogamy, past arrests, STDs, crazy-ass family, etc.
It's for those types of conversations. The big ones. The scary ones. The important ones. The ones that may lead to a break up. The one that will let you know that this person you're getting serious about might actually be safe to get serious about.
If they've had this conversation(s), and she's not disclosed, I would advise that something is wrong here. But if they're still in the early, fun, NSA stage, she's probably not even thinking about it.
There's one other possibility, and then I'll shut up. If she is simply curious, if she's not tested her attraction to women yet, and this relationship is going as well as the writer says, she may be thinking herself that it was all simply curiosity and therefore, not worth bringing up.
14
You all are crazy, especially 8. If they have made it to the point of meeting & continuing to develop a relationship, she's gotta tell him. It has nothing to do with whether or not she intends to date women while seeing this guy. I know from experience people WANT to know this early on. If he goes all frat boy on her, she knows to move on.
Incidentally, the complete opposite is true for bi guys. Girls run, boys proceed with caution. Unfortunately, so far no female has requested the three way...
Incidentally, the complete opposite is true for bi guys. Girls run, boys proceed with caution. Unfortunately, so far no female has requested the three way...
15
@14 Typical. Girls have to tell. "I know from experience people WANT to know this early on." However, guys have the right to disclose their preference at will. "boys proceed with caution. Unfortunately, so far no female has requested the three way." What? Um, yes they have requested "the three way" and I know several het girls personally who have had 3-somes with 2 guys and love it. Why the double standard?
16
@ 15: I'm not promoting the double standard, I'm lamenting it! Maybe I'm just not meeting the rigjht girls, but so far no fems have expressed interest anywhere near the level that guys do.
Also, perhaps I was not clear in my previous post. When I wrote, "boys proceed with caution", I was referring to how people react when I tell them I'm bisexual. Girls say, "nice to meet you, see ya!." Boys become cautious.
Bottom line: Bisexual orientation is not obvious like gay or straight. ie if i'm hitting on a guy, he most likely assumes I'm gay. If I'm hitting on a girl, she assumes I'm straight. Therefore, it should be mentioned as early on as possible to avoid the appearance of deception by omission.
Also, perhaps I was not clear in my previous post. When I wrote, "boys proceed with caution", I was referring to how people react when I tell them I'm bisexual. Girls say, "nice to meet you, see ya!." Boys become cautious.
Bottom line: Bisexual orientation is not obvious like gay or straight. ie if i'm hitting on a guy, he most likely assumes I'm gay. If I'm hitting on a girl, she assumes I'm straight. Therefore, it should be mentioned as early on as possible to avoid the appearance of deception by omission.
17
@2- The mainstream dating sites only give you one space to say what you're looking for, as in Man seeking Man, or Woman seeking Man. Even the "progressive" chemistry.com doesn't have a category of "seeking either." If the woman in the letter is looking for either, she'd have to put up two profiles.
18
So, as an off shoot to the responses here so far, do I need to have an online presence for potential hook-ups or partners to find? I prefer not to participate in most capacities online. You guys take Googling as standard, so now I'm wondering if I should be more visible online as part of putting myself out there.
19
The girl's 21. She probably doen't know herself all that well and doesn't know exactly what she wants.
She's probably curious and experimental and a little naive.
Not ALL 21 year olds are like that, but many are.
She's probably curious and experimental and a little naive.
Not ALL 21 year olds are like that, but many are.
20
(@19) Urugatha, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss a twenty one year old's sexuality. I knew I was bi at that age, but remained closeted about it for a few years. She may not know what she wants (I still don't) but she probably knows who she is.
@14 I haven't had that experience. Though some women are more cautious when they learn I'm bi, they don't run away.
@4 I agree with Dan... it should be an upfront thing. Just like religion. I'm an atheist and some folks don't want to date atheists so I let them know so they can filter themselves out. Dan isn't as great as he could be on bi issues, but he's better than most and I would say that he's better in his treatment of bi women than men. He acknowledges bi women exist (with their 'fluid sexuality') while he's said that bi men are either lying or fooling themselves. I am attracted to, have enjoyed sex with, and would consider dating both women and men. If there's a better word than bisexual I'll grab it, but it seems like the right description to me.
@14 I haven't had that experience. Though some women are more cautious when they learn I'm bi, they don't run away.
@4 I agree with Dan... it should be an upfront thing. Just like religion. I'm an atheist and some folks don't want to date atheists so I let them know so they can filter themselves out. Dan isn't as great as he could be on bi issues, but he's better than most and I would say that he's better in his treatment of bi women than men. He acknowledges bi women exist (with their 'fluid sexuality') while he's said that bi men are either lying or fooling themselves. I am attracted to, have enjoyed sex with, and would consider dating both women and men. If there's a better word than bisexual I'll grab it, but it seems like the right description to me.
21
20.
Hell yes. There are so many fucking nuances, aren't there? I use "bisexual" for the same reason, because there's no better term. But it's not completely accurate in my case.
If there's a better word than bisexual I'll grab it
Hell yes. There are so many fucking nuances, aren't there? I use "bisexual" for the same reason, because there's no better term. But it's not completely accurate in my case.
22
I come out as a general rule, but I can understand why she might hesitate. She might want to test the waters before telling him.
Also, I'm pansexual, not bisexual. I can be attracted to trans people and intersexed people in addition to bisexual, thus defying the gender binary represented by 'bi'. Just to those who maybe want a more accurate word. I think that bisexual is a fine word, though, on its own. Aside from the "not one of those bisexuals" people who feel ashamed of their identity or the representation it has in the media.
I could rant a whole lot here, but I won't. That's just my two cents. Though I do otherwise, she's justified in waiting until she's ready. Or she might have forgotten to tell him because she has the profile(s) set up like that. I sometimes forget to come out, because I expect people to already know if I've known them for long at all.
Also, I'm pansexual, not bisexual. I can be attracted to trans people and intersexed people in addition to bisexual, thus defying the gender binary represented by 'bi'. Just to those who maybe want a more accurate word. I think that bisexual is a fine word, though, on its own. Aside from the "not one of those bisexuals" people who feel ashamed of their identity or the representation it has in the media.
I could rant a whole lot here, but I won't. That's just my two cents. Though I do otherwise, she's justified in waiting until she's ready. Or she might have forgotten to tell him because she has the profile(s) set up like that. I sometimes forget to come out, because I expect people to already know if I've known them for long at all.
23
The big deal here is that she's 21 and experimenting, not that she's bi.
Now kick back and enjoy being one of her experiments as much as you can. Keep your expectations low (she WILL break your heart), your appreciation high and follow the campsite rule. At the end, leave with a smile and best-wishes like the super-hip marginally older guy you are.
And if by remarkable coincidence we're talking about the same girl, have fun and hold on tight ;)
Now kick back and enjoy being one of her experiments as much as you can. Keep your expectations low (she WILL break your heart), your appreciation high and follow the campsite rule. At the end, leave with a smile and best-wishes like the super-hip marginally older guy you are.
And if by remarkable coincidence we're talking about the same girl, have fun and hold on tight ;)
24
@22 The pedantic difference between bisexual and pansexual is too small for me to want to use it. (Though I'm certainly attracted to folks who don't fit in the gender binary.) It's not a widely accepted enough term that I'd be able to use it with ease with acquaintances. I'd be more likely to lean towards queer, though I think it's a little vague and vaguely political. All of these terms are weirdly sexually charged, I feel like folks might assume I'm slutty just because I'm bi when really, I'm just accepting that I'm attracted to some men and some women.
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