Slog
News & ArtsThursday, July 30, 2009
Crime / City How Teresa Butz Fought Back
Posted by Eli Sanders on Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 2:40 PM
While in South Park working on this piece, I heard a few people say that Teresa Butz had "sacrificed herself" in order to save her partner after a man broke into Butz's small red house, raped her and her partner, and began stabbing them both.
Butz died immediately after the attacks. Her partner lived. What Butz's act of sacrifice was remained unclear, even to the people I heard talking about it, until yesterday when King County prosecutors released details supporting their charges against Isaiah M.K. Kalebu, the man they say committed the rapes, stabbings, and murder.
Some of this has been summarized already elsewhere, but the key word is summarized. This crime involves details so gruesome they can't be printed in most mainstream publications. I'm going to reprint them here, verbatim, because I don't think there's any reason to hide from public view exactly how horrific these attacks were, and exactly what these two women did to try to stop them.
In this excerpt, T.B. stands for Teresa Butz. Her partner's initials have been redacted to protect her privacy.
[Butz's partner] reported that she was awakened at approximately 0130 hours by the presence of man standing over her and T.B. The man was naked and holding a large, butcher-type knife in his hand. He told [Teresa Butz's partner] and T.B "I won't hurt you. All I want is some pussy." He then directed [Teresa Butz's partner] and T.B. to remove their clothing.Over the course of the next 90 minutes, the man repeatedly sexually assaulted [Teresa Butz's partner] and T.B. He forcibly compelled [Teresa Butz's partner] and T.B. to engage in multiple acts of vaginal, anal, and oral sex with him. The man also ejaculated inside both women. After he completed a second series of sexual assaults, the man announced that their ordeal was only beginning.
Throughout the time that [Teresa Butz's partner] and T.B. were being sexually assaulted, the man also physically assaulted them with a butcher knife. He repeatedly used the knife to cut the necks of both women. After a time, the physical assaults intensified. The man began cutting more aggressively on the necks of both women. [Teresa Butz's partner], in particular, began to lose a large amount of blood.
T.B. eventually was able to kick the man off the bed, and she and [Teresa Butz's partner] attempted to defend themselves. Enraged, the man punched T.B. in the face with either his fist or the butt of the knife, knocking her across the room. He then began to stab her, striking her in the chest and upper arm. T.B. was able to grab a nightstand and throw it through the bedroom window. She then dove out of the window herself. [Teresa Butz's partner] ran from the room and out the front door, where she saw that T.B. had collapsed in the street. [Teresa Butz's partner] pounded on the door of a neighbor's house across the street, screaming for help. The man apparently collected his clothes and fled out of the residence.
The rest was already known: the young girl from across the street who rushed out to help, the last words Butz spoke, the shock and grief in the small South Park community in which they lived.
But this should be known, too: how unspeakably brutal this crime was, and how two women did what they could to make it stop.
Photo by Malcolm Smith.
4
oh god. horrible, horrible, horrible. my blood just ran cold in reading this. every woman's nightmare personified.
6
I know this is every woman's nightmare, but I think it is compounded and even more horrifying to be perpetrated on a lesbian
this all makes me grievously sad
this all makes me grievously sad
7
my stepdaughter thinks i'm overly protective because i make her lock the doors when we leave. no more.
i think he's certifiably crazy because you have to be crazy to do something this bad. but if he gets the death penalty i'm not going to be surprised. or care much.
i think he's certifiably crazy because you have to be crazy to do something this bad. but if he gets the death penalty i'm not going to be surprised. or care much.
8
One thing that has disturbed me about the coverage of this horrible crime has been the disparity between hiding the identity of the survivor while splashing all sorts of info about her partner, the crime and her residence all over the place. Honestly, how much privacy is being afforded to the survivor at this point?
I really hope Teresa Butz's partner gave her authorization to have these details posted to the general public. If not, what a fucked up thing to do to someone who's already dealing with a startlingly horrific reality.
I really hope Teresa Butz's partner gave her authorization to have these details posted to the general public. If not, what a fucked up thing to do to someone who's already dealing with a startlingly horrific reality.
10
@3 Any other takers from yesterday? Anyone else feel we should not have a death penalty under any circumstances? Still feel that even the remote possibility of innocence means that logical and natural justice should not be available for Kalebu. Anyone else think that bi-polar disorder should be an acceptable excuse for his actions?
11
@10 This guy is fucked to the max. This crime is fucked beyond belief. The story made me cry.
That said, killing him will not make any of you feel better about what happened to this woman. Nor will it make the world a bright and shiny place with rainbows and unicorns.
Vengeance is not a *cure* for violence.
That said, killing him will not make any of you feel better about what happened to this woman. Nor will it make the world a bright and shiny place with rainbows and unicorns.
Vengeance is not a *cure* for violence.
12
@11 I agree. No single horrific act, no matter how monstrous and gruesome, makes state killing of its citizens acceptable. It will not change what was done to these women, nor will it prevent future individuals from commiting future atrocities. And it will not make anyone feel better.
15
@11: "killing him will not make any of you feel better about what happened to this woman."
Yes. Yes it will. That's what vengeance and reciprocity are all about, satisfying our natural desire for things to be as even, balanced, and fair as is possible.
But, no, it is not a cure for violence.
Yes. Yes it will. That's what vengeance and reciprocity are all about, satisfying our natural desire for things to be as even, balanced, and fair as is possible.
But, no, it is not a cure for violence.
16
@14 and 15
Honestly? There is honestly something in this world that makes you "feel better about what happened to this woman" really? Because I don't think that anything could ever make me feel better about this. EVER. And I know that nothing will ever make the surviving woman feel better about it. She will have scars emotionally and physically for the rest of her life.
That's sick and sad, especially that what it is that makes you "feel better" about it is killing another person.
If the only purpose in killing this person is to make you feel better it is an emotionally driven act of vengeance and nothing more. It is not justice. It does not deter others from performing the same acts, it certainly does nothing to decrease the horror that these woman experienced, it is not the only option in keeping 'this animal' off the streets, and it certainly doesn't teach him a lesson, how can it, he is dead, out of his misery actually, as they say.
I don't see how anything could ever make you feel better about what happened to these woman.
Honestly? There is honestly something in this world that makes you "feel better about what happened to this woman" really? Because I don't think that anything could ever make me feel better about this. EVER. And I know that nothing will ever make the surviving woman feel better about it. She will have scars emotionally and physically for the rest of her life.
That's sick and sad, especially that what it is that makes you "feel better" about it is killing another person.
If the only purpose in killing this person is to make you feel better it is an emotionally driven act of vengeance and nothing more. It is not justice. It does not deter others from performing the same acts, it certainly does nothing to decrease the horror that these woman experienced, it is not the only option in keeping 'this animal' off the streets, and it certainly doesn't teach him a lesson, how can it, he is dead, out of his misery actually, as they say.
I don't see how anything could ever make you feel better about what happened to these woman.
17
When I went manic, I bought $32,000 worth of items on credit, ruining said credit. All items were repossessed and I still owe about $50,000 with interest.
Was I forgiven of my debt by my creditors or the government for things I did while out of my mind?
No.
Neither should this guy.
Kill him.
Was I forgiven of my debt by my creditors or the government for things I did while out of my mind?
No.
Neither should this guy.
Kill him.
18
I will go further: anyone who would genuinely feel better about what happened to that poor woman if the killer is executed is morally equivalent to the killer. YOU ARE THE SAME, your emotions, desires, hopes, dreams, fears are IDENTICAL to those of the killer. You are him and he is you.
@13, if they had been armed, he would have shot them both instead. Unless you think they, or anyone, even you in your most erect Charles Bronson fantasies, think you can awake out of a deep slumber and successfully find and aim your firearm at an amped-up crazy person with a big knife and heart full of adrenaline and pain. You don't stand a fucking chance.
That is, in fact, exactly how my grandparents died. In other words, go fuck yourself.
@13, if they had been armed, he would have shot them both instead. Unless you think they, or anyone, even you in your most erect Charles Bronson fantasies, think you can awake out of a deep slumber and successfully find and aim your firearm at an amped-up crazy person with a big knife and heart full of adrenaline and pain. You don't stand a fucking chance.
That is, in fact, exactly how my grandparents died. In other words, go fuck yourself.
19
@13 Maybe if they slept with a loaded gun under their pillows, which would be dumb for obvious reasons.
Things that actually might have helped:
- a dog that barks
- an alarm
- locked window
- a male housemate (men are good for some things)
- somehow realizing from the beginning that this guy meant to kill them
Things that actually might have helped:
- a dog that barks
- an alarm
- locked window
- a male housemate (men are good for some things)
- somehow realizing from the beginning that this guy meant to kill them
20
Fnarf is an unapologetic eater of meat, going as far as celebrating it, rubbing it in people's faces, and mocking those who detract.
In other words, he is also a murderer.
His claims are invalid.
In other words, he is also a murderer.
His claims are invalid.
21
I so hope that this piece of shit Kalebu is gang-raped in jail often and violently. It needs to be psychically destroyed so that it is begging to kill itself.
22
Well, he derives joy from victimizing women, so keep him away from all women, period.
In fact, surround him with as much testosterone as possible.
In fact, surround him with as much testosterone as possible.
23
@16 & @18:
Don't blame me. The desire for vengeance is rooted in our genes, at least for those of us with Y chromosomes.
Fnarf, if someone raped and killed your wife, not a day would go by where you didn't fantasize about revenge. And if you actually had the chance to act it out, it would be difficult for you to inhibit, even though it wouldn't bring her back, or have any other practical benefit.
That emotional reaction doesn't make you the moral equivalent of the murderer. It just makes you human. Whether or not you act on it may have moral implications, but personally, I wouldn't pass judgment on you if you did.
Don't blame me. The desire for vengeance is rooted in our genes, at least for those of us with Y chromosomes.
Fnarf, if someone raped and killed your wife, not a day would go by where you didn't fantasize about revenge. And if you actually had the chance to act it out, it would be difficult for you to inhibit, even though it wouldn't bring her back, or have any other practical benefit.
That emotional reaction doesn't make you the moral equivalent of the murderer. It just makes you human. Whether or not you act on it may have moral implications, but personally, I wouldn't pass judgment on you if you did.
25
I have to diagree with @12 and @18.
This guy's getting the death penalty would make me feel better. And,no, Fnarf, I am not the monster this bastard is.
That said, the death penalty is still morally evil.
I know this runs counter to the prevailing moral code here on SLOG, but some things that make you feel good are wrong, and you shouldn't do them. Executing a brutal killer/rapist (when there exists the alternative of life without parole) is one of them.
This guy's getting the death penalty would make me feel better. And,no, Fnarf, I am not the monster this bastard is.
That said, the death penalty is still morally evil.
I know this runs counter to the prevailing moral code here on SLOG, but some things that make you feel good are wrong, and you shouldn't do them. Executing a brutal killer/rapist (when there exists the alternative of life without parole) is one of them.
26
@21: more torture! We must create as much human misery as possible! Where unimaginable pain exists, we must amplify and extend it as much as possible! Only through the pain of others can we begin to address the pain we feel inside ourselves!
Yes, I think you have conclusively proved my point. You are equivalent to this murderer, or would be if you had your way.
@23, feel free to enlighten us as to which DNA pairs encode the "vengeance" gene you claim exists in our chromosomes. Because if you can't, all you're doing is puffing yourself up to cover for your own terrorized self. Chromosomes, that's a good one. Coward.
Yes, I think you have conclusively proved my point. You are equivalent to this murderer, or would be if you had your way.
@23, feel free to enlighten us as to which DNA pairs encode the "vengeance" gene you claim exists in our chromosomes. Because if you can't, all you're doing is puffing yourself up to cover for your own terrorized self. Chromosomes, that's a good one. Coward.
27
@23
How does killing someone due to your emotional reaction not equate you to the murderer? It is a fucked up emotional/psychological state that leads most people to kill, is it not?
I could never live with myself if I took the life out of another human being, no matter what kind of a messed up shit they were.
I have never wished anyone dead. And I have been a victim of a violent act.
@25
I never said that it didn't make you feel better. I said that I find it grotesque that it could.
That being said, you are right, there are things that people want to do that are wrong and they shouldn't do them. And I can appreciate your position. Due to your last statement though I have to wonder if you wouldn't feel a bit of doubt or guilt were you in anyway a part of the actual death of this guy? Doesn't doing things that you know are wrong make you feel bad about doing them? Therefore, would it really make you feel better about it? But I may be assuming too much here.
How does killing someone due to your emotional reaction not equate you to the murderer? It is a fucked up emotional/psychological state that leads most people to kill, is it not?
I could never live with myself if I took the life out of another human being, no matter what kind of a messed up shit they were.
I have never wished anyone dead. And I have been a victim of a violent act.
@25
I never said that it didn't make you feel better. I said that I find it grotesque that it could.
That being said, you are right, there are things that people want to do that are wrong and they shouldn't do them. And I can appreciate your position. Due to your last statement though I have to wonder if you wouldn't feel a bit of doubt or guilt were you in anyway a part of the actual death of this guy? Doesn't doing things that you know are wrong make you feel bad about doing them? Therefore, would it really make you feel better about it? But I may be assuming too much here.
28
Fnarf is asserting points that are completely undermined and humiliated by his past grandstanding of eating meat.
I know it is not the perfect analogy, but torture, pain, and violence are all equitable across species.
I know it is not the perfect analogy, but torture, pain, and violence are all equitable across species.
29
@ 28, keep the vegetarian grandstanding to other threads.
This was one of the hardest things to read ever. Those poor, poor women.
This was one of the hardest things to read ever. Those poor, poor women.
31
Who said anything about feeling better?
Who said anything about deterrence?
Who said anything about vengeance?
This is about justice. It sucks that everybody has to be a loser in this situation, but those women and society deserve justice that is equivalent to the crime committed on them. If anything, if proven guilty, NOT executing this monster is about feeling good. So we, society, can feel morally superior about staying our hand and not extracting the justice that so many of us feel, in our gut, is the right response.
Who said anything about deterrence?
Who said anything about vengeance?
This is about justice. It sucks that everybody has to be a loser in this situation, but those women and society deserve justice that is equivalent to the crime committed on them. If anything, if proven guilty, NOT executing this monster is about feeling good. So we, society, can feel morally superior about staying our hand and not extracting the justice that so many of us feel, in our gut, is the right response.
32
It's not grandstanding, Matt (though nice try in using my own words against me; fail)...
This is about specifically addressing false and inaccurate claims to morality that Fnarf is making.
This is about specifically addressing false and inaccurate claims to morality that Fnarf is making.
33
If this were a pit bull with rabies nobody would have a problem euthanizing it. Why do human animals deserve special consideration? Why is a human killer's life so much more valuable that we can't put the animal down? He will never contribute to society, he will remain mentally unstable (refuses to take medication), he will remain violent. Why preserve his existence? And please don't caterwaul the usual, "But we'd be no better than him" or "We'd be murderers just like him" bull shit. Somebody give me a real, legitimate reason we shouldn't euthanize violent, dangerous humans the same way we euthanize violent, dangerous animals. Please?
p.s. I know that in some cases people have wound up on death row that are innocent, but that DNA project confirmed more convictions than it let people off and in this case we actually know this dirt bag is guilty.
p.s. I know that in some cases people have wound up on death row that are innocent, but that DNA project confirmed more convictions than it let people off and in this case we actually know this dirt bag is guilty.
34
When I was 21, by a man crawled through my bedroom window one warm spring evening and raped me. I was lucky: he only threatened me with his knife. For many years I lived in terror, and for many years I wished he'd have killed me with that knife instead, so I wouldn't have to live with the pain and terror I felt.
yet, despite the deep sadness and horror I experienced in learning the full story of what happened to these women (I didn't read the posted report), I do not in any way support the death penalty. and in this case, kalebu is mentally ill; he's an unmedicated paranoid schizophrenic with violent tendencies. the system failed here. failed to keep kalebu safe and therefore failed to keep our community safe.
execution/revenge may satisfy a very human part of us, but it is a part of us that I believe is capable instead of compassion. horror and rage, yes, but we must look at the context of the situation, not just the act itself. @16 said it well. there is no common good in executing this man. there is only deep sadness.
if we focus our rage on the man and the act, nothing will come of the loss of Teresa; the personal IS political.
yet, despite the deep sadness and horror I experienced in learning the full story of what happened to these women (I didn't read the posted report), I do not in any way support the death penalty. and in this case, kalebu is mentally ill; he's an unmedicated paranoid schizophrenic with violent tendencies. the system failed here. failed to keep kalebu safe and therefore failed to keep our community safe.
execution/revenge may satisfy a very human part of us, but it is a part of us that I believe is capable instead of compassion. horror and rage, yes, but we must look at the context of the situation, not just the act itself. @16 said it well. there is no common good in executing this man. there is only deep sadness.
if we focus our rage on the man and the act, nothing will come of the loss of Teresa; the personal IS political.
35
Fnarf at @26: Coward? Easy there, big fella.
I maintain that the universality of revenge fantasies, particularly among males, strongly suggests that this is a trait inherent to our species.
I also maintain that you have had such fantasies, and you certainly would in the hypothetical scenario I described, and are thus an ornery, cantankerous hypocrite.
I maintain that the universality of revenge fantasies, particularly among males, strongly suggests that this is a trait inherent to our species.
I also maintain that you have had such fantasies, and you certainly would in the hypothetical scenario I described, and are thus an ornery, cantankerous hypocrite.
36
Take it all in @27: I'm pretty sure that back @11 you DID say that killing him wouldn't make us feel better, but it's possible I misread what you typed.
Bigger picture, I think you and I are on the same page here. Capital punishment is wrong, and I know it, although it does address some visceral urge I have. And sure, I'd feel huge "doubt or guilt" as you put it, if I were somehow involved in bringing about his execution.
Maybe to sharpen my point, I'd say, if you want to oppose capital punishment, it's milquetoast and maybe not even correct (depending on whom you are talking to) to say "Don't do it; it won't make you feel better." The argument against capital punishment is "Don't do it; it's evil."
You might feel like doing an evil thing, even if you are a good person. Sometimes doing an evil thing can feel good, even if you are a good person. But if you are good person, all the same don't that evil thing. Not because you fear the guilt hangover, but because it's the wrong fucking thing to do.
Bigger picture, I think you and I are on the same page here. Capital punishment is wrong, and I know it, although it does address some visceral urge I have. And sure, I'd feel huge "doubt or guilt" as you put it, if I were somehow involved in bringing about his execution.
Maybe to sharpen my point, I'd say, if you want to oppose capital punishment, it's milquetoast and maybe not even correct (depending on whom you are talking to) to say "Don't do it; it won't make you feel better." The argument against capital punishment is "Don't do it; it's evil."
You might feel like doing an evil thing, even if you are a good person. Sometimes doing an evil thing can feel good, even if you are a good person. But if you are good person, all the same don't that evil thing. Not because you fear the guilt hangover, but because it's the wrong fucking thing to do.
37
@34: "execution/revenge may satisfy a very human part of us, but it is a part of us that I believe is capable instead of compassion."
Well said - compassion is just as innately human as vengeance.
And, it's not clear that violent retribution would accomplish anything here, especially at the hands of the state, besides satisfying our collective bloodlust, for whatever that's worth.
That said, I just read about another gay bashing on Capitol Hill, and frankly, I think violent retribution exacted by an angry mob would go a LONG way towards deterring future attacks.
Well said - compassion is just as innately human as vengeance.
And, it's not clear that violent retribution would accomplish anything here, especially at the hands of the state, besides satisfying our collective bloodlust, for whatever that's worth.
That said, I just read about another gay bashing on Capitol Hill, and frankly, I think violent retribution exacted by an angry mob would go a LONG way towards deterring future attacks.
38
@35, yes. When I was a child and my mother wouldn't let me have a second popsicle right after the first one, I fantasized about pushing her in front of a train.
People fantasize about all sorts of things. That doesn't mean they ought to do them. In this particular case, your fantasizing about revenge is essentially no different than the mental state of the murderer who terrorized those women.
You could just as easily say "I maintain that the universality of violent murder, particularly among males, strongly suggests that this is a trait inherent to our species."
The difference is, of course, that this murderer is a violent, mentally deranged criminal, and we, collectively are a civilization. We don't do the first thing that pops into our heads, just because we feel the need to kill someone.
Killing this murderer won't bring Teresa Butz back. It won't make her partner feel better, either. And even if it did, it dehumanizes us.
But then, a lot of people these days are desperate to be dehumanized. Look at your own rabid for torturing this person. You WANT to be dehumanized. That puts you squarely in the killer's camp. You don't want civilization.
I do.
People fantasize about all sorts of things. That doesn't mean they ought to do them. In this particular case, your fantasizing about revenge is essentially no different than the mental state of the murderer who terrorized those women.
You could just as easily say "I maintain that the universality of violent murder, particularly among males, strongly suggests that this is a trait inherent to our species."
The difference is, of course, that this murderer is a violent, mentally deranged criminal, and we, collectively are a civilization. We don't do the first thing that pops into our heads, just because we feel the need to kill someone.
Killing this murderer won't bring Teresa Butz back. It won't make her partner feel better, either. And even if it did, it dehumanizes us.
But then, a lot of people these days are desperate to be dehumanized. Look at your own rabid for torturing this person. You WANT to be dehumanized. That puts you squarely in the killer's camp. You don't want civilization.
I do.
39
@18 - Fnarf, I'm sorry about your grandparents.
@34 - I'm sorry that happened to you. I hope your attacker was caught and convicted. May you find peace.
@34 - I'm sorry that happened to you. I hope your attacker was caught and convicted. May you find peace.
40
@ 32, you're right, I wasn't thinking when I wrote "grandstanding." Just picked it up from your post. Duh....
That said, I still think it belongs on another thread.
That said, I still think it belongs on another thread.
41
Fnarf or should I say O Holy Passive One:
Say what you will about me. If it makes you feel better and superior, then good for you.
My ancestory goes back to the Aztecs. They used to cut people's hearts out while they were still alive--all in the name of mentally retarded religious bullshit.
As for me, I wish they would burn the piece of shit Kalebu alive. Even that ending is too kind.
Alas, Washington State offers only the simple acts of lethal injection and hanging. Sigh.
Say what you will about me. If it makes you feel better and superior, then good for you.
My ancestory goes back to the Aztecs. They used to cut people's hearts out while they were still alive--all in the name of mentally retarded religious bullshit.
As for me, I wish they would burn the piece of shit Kalebu alive. Even that ending is too kind.
Alas, Washington State offers only the simple acts of lethal injection and hanging. Sigh.
44
@8 the information posted here is taken from the public documents related to the case. I agree with you that because we all know her partner's name, the surviving victim's privacy is more violated, but the facts of any case are always publicly available.
My heart breaks for the victims and everyone affected by this case.
My heart breaks for the victims and everyone affected by this case.
45
Whatever happens to this scumbag, he better never be allowed to see the light of day again. This is a matter of public safety.
46
@38: "I maintain that the universality of violent murder, particularly among males, strongly suggests that this is a trait inherent to our species."
Right you are. Murder is a thoroughly, and, I might add, uniquely, human trait. Study homicide from a scientific perspective, and there are perhaps a half a dozen scenarios that account for 99% of murders. Step father kills step child, trivial slight escalates into deadly violence, man loses wife and kids to divorce and kills them all, gang member killed in retaliation shooting, man shoots cheating wife and her lover, paranoid psychotic claims another victim, and loner male goes on shooting spree. Turns out we're pretty fucking predictable.
Unfortunately, it seems men have some genetic baggage that may have served us well 10,000 years ago, before police and divorce court were invented, but is kind of a downer in modern times.
If you really want to prevent murder, you need to understand and accept our capacity for it. In fact, I'd say the most convincing argument you could make for gun control is one word; "testosterone".
Right you are. Murder is a thoroughly, and, I might add, uniquely, human trait. Study homicide from a scientific perspective, and there are perhaps a half a dozen scenarios that account for 99% of murders. Step father kills step child, trivial slight escalates into deadly violence, man loses wife and kids to divorce and kills them all, gang member killed in retaliation shooting, man shoots cheating wife and her lover, paranoid psychotic claims another victim, and loner male goes on shooting spree. Turns out we're pretty fucking predictable.
Unfortunately, it seems men have some genetic baggage that may have served us well 10,000 years ago, before police and divorce court were invented, but is kind of a downer in modern times.
If you really want to prevent murder, you need to understand and accept our capacity for it. In fact, I'd say the most convincing argument you could make for gun control is one word; "testosterone".
47
@44 - I know it's public info and anyone could find it if they wanted to. But how many would do so if they had to go look for it? There's a difference between information being available and being plastered all over the place. I'm not just talking about the Stranger; all the local media is making the survivor's current situation VERY public in disturbing detail and it squicks me out.
fnarf, I'm sorry about your grandparents.
fnarf, I'm sorry about your grandparents.
48
I love how all the liberal pussies decide they're for the death penalty when they're somehow affected by violent crime. I've known victims of violent crime and I still don't endorse the death sentence. Some of these posts reflect a remarkable ethical and moral flexibility. Your weakness when it comes to your own values is the keystone of conservatism in this country.
49
None of us can speak for what TB's partner feels about the death penalty, about how it would make her feel, or about how she feels about the details of the event being posted here.
But the upside of spreading the story of what Teresa Butz and her partner did that night is that all of us who read this can spread the word that Teresa and her partner are Heroes. The upside is that many, many people are now celebrating in their hearts that Teresa's partner and Teresa were/are the greatest heroes that we have ever heard of. I hope this celebration by a bunch of strangers is of some small comfort to Teresa's partner.
You fought back. You two are both amazing. I celebrate that.
But the upside of spreading the story of what Teresa Butz and her partner did that night is that all of us who read this can spread the word that Teresa and her partner are Heroes. The upside is that many, many people are now celebrating in their hearts that Teresa's partner and Teresa were/are the greatest heroes that we have ever heard of. I hope this celebration by a bunch of strangers is of some small comfort to Teresa's partner.
You fought back. You two are both amazing. I celebrate that.
51
Vengeance is merely the act of inflicting punishment in return for injury. That's a very broad category that covers all kinds of situations. Imprisoning someone after a trial is both vengeance AND just. Beating the shit our of your girlfriend for dumping you is vengeance and unjust.
Frankly, I have no problem with the PRINCIPLE of killing someone for a sadistic murder. After all, we all know that two acts can be physically almost identical and morally very different (i.e. the speeder who accidentally kills someone and the cop in pursuit of a speeder who accidentally kills someone). All that stuff about "killing is killing" is foolishness. Circumstances matter.
I do, unfortunately, have a problem with the STATE killing people - they tend to fuck it up and get it wrong, and the system is easily hijacked by liars.
So, I happily support killing this guy if someone decides to go ahead and do it. But I don't support the state doing it. And, if that makes me his moral equivalent, then don't have either of us over for dinner.
Frankly, I have no problem with the PRINCIPLE of killing someone for a sadistic murder. After all, we all know that two acts can be physically almost identical and morally very different (i.e. the speeder who accidentally kills someone and the cop in pursuit of a speeder who accidentally kills someone). All that stuff about "killing is killing" is foolishness. Circumstances matter.
I do, unfortunately, have a problem with the STATE killing people - they tend to fuck it up and get it wrong, and the system is easily hijacked by liars.
So, I happily support killing this guy if someone decides to go ahead and do it. But I don't support the state doing it. And, if that makes me his moral equivalent, then don't have either of us over for dinner.
52
By the way -
If you're ever confronted by a rapist or a man who wants you to "get in the car and drive," the time to fight is RIGHT THEN. Not later, when he's even more worked up, or when he's already hurt you, or when you're far away from anyone who can see anything.
If you're ever confronted by a rapist or a man who wants you to "get in the car and drive," the time to fight is RIGHT THEN. Not later, when he's even more worked up, or when he's already hurt you, or when you're far away from anyone who can see anything.
53
Wanting to see the murderer brought to justice is far from wanting him to go free. It's not a subtle difference, but it's too much for Stupid White Man. God only knows what catastrophes produced his defective personality.
Sadly, there is nothing that will ever make Teresa Butz's partner whole again. Murder lasts forever. I know that in my own family everyone who was touched by the crime, even me -- and I was too young to know what was happening, but old enough to see what was happening to everyone around me (and misinterpret it). It gets in you, and it never gets out.
She can hope to "find a measure of peace", like Gracie here (bless you, dear), but she'll never be whole again. My heart breaks for her, now and for however long she lives, and everyone who knew and loved Teresa. They're never going to stop suffering, never.
If I could wish anything for her partner's killer, it would be for him to see and understand that fact, really understand it. He should be made to go around and share his nightmares, and the ones he has created in others, with at-risk youth like himself who haven't murdered yet. Scare the crap out of them. Make him really PAY, not in more misery but in reducing the misery in others. He'll never balance those books, but he should be made to try.
Seandr, if murder is innate, then why shouldn't it be allowed? That's the argument you're making for violent revenge fantasies.
Sadly, there is nothing that will ever make Teresa Butz's partner whole again. Murder lasts forever. I know that in my own family everyone who was touched by the crime, even me -- and I was too young to know what was happening, but old enough to see what was happening to everyone around me (and misinterpret it). It gets in you, and it never gets out.
She can hope to "find a measure of peace", like Gracie here (bless you, dear), but she'll never be whole again. My heart breaks for her, now and for however long she lives, and everyone who knew and loved Teresa. They're never going to stop suffering, never.
If I could wish anything for her partner's killer, it would be for him to see and understand that fact, really understand it. He should be made to go around and share his nightmares, and the ones he has created in others, with at-risk youth like himself who haven't murdered yet. Scare the crap out of them. Make him really PAY, not in more misery but in reducing the misery in others. He'll never balance those books, but he should be made to try.
Seandr, if murder is innate, then why shouldn't it be allowed? That's the argument you're making for violent revenge fantasies.
54
Bipolar disorder, or any mental disorder, is not an excuse for any crime. It's an explanation. People don't commit horrific acts for no reason.
Personally I think executing the perpetrator of this crime is a reasonable and efficient way of ensuring that he never hurts anyone again, under the assumption that anyone who could do something like this is beyond repair and will never be safe or sane.
All the same, downplaying or dismissing mental illness as a contributing factor out of a desire to assign blame, responsibility, and punishment - even though that's an entirely natural reaction - only leads us down the path of failing to do whatever we can to prevent things like this from happening in the future.
@48: I agree that there is a certain hopeless naivete in a lot of young liberals who have been educated with at least the rough notions of behaviorism and mental health awareness, but who have never yet had any real exposure to things this horrific. I'm not sure what you're seeing is moral flexibility so much as a readjustment of values upon exposure of untested ideas to the harsh reality of violent crime. If it's weakness, it's only the sort that comes from well-intentioned inexperience. And frankly, I'd much rather have people around who are against killing than for it, if in either case it's presupposed that they don't really understand the issues yet. For my part, I have no objection on principle to the death penalty for pragmatic reasons, as I stated above; it's not about punishment or retribution. I know I'm an atypical liberal in that regard, however.
Personally I think executing the perpetrator of this crime is a reasonable and efficient way of ensuring that he never hurts anyone again, under the assumption that anyone who could do something like this is beyond repair and will never be safe or sane.
All the same, downplaying or dismissing mental illness as a contributing factor out of a desire to assign blame, responsibility, and punishment - even though that's an entirely natural reaction - only leads us down the path of failing to do whatever we can to prevent things like this from happening in the future.
@48: I agree that there is a certain hopeless naivete in a lot of young liberals who have been educated with at least the rough notions of behaviorism and mental health awareness, but who have never yet had any real exposure to things this horrific. I'm not sure what you're seeing is moral flexibility so much as a readjustment of values upon exposure of untested ideas to the harsh reality of violent crime. If it's weakness, it's only the sort that comes from well-intentioned inexperience. And frankly, I'd much rather have people around who are against killing than for it, if in either case it's presupposed that they don't really understand the issues yet. For my part, I have no objection on principle to the death penalty for pragmatic reasons, as I stated above; it's not about punishment or retribution. I know I'm an atypical liberal in that regard, however.
55
Oh, ok Fnarf, you'll just be holding a candle light vigil outside the jail when he's about to be executed.
56
Can we come up with some solutions and suggestions that we may be able to protect ourselves better rather than go off on a tangent?
57
"with at-risk youth like himself who haven't murdered yet."
Oh, great idea....
"Kids today you're going to meet a fascinating young man, Mr. Isaiah M.K. Kalebu. He's hear to tell you about how one little mistake in his life messed up his chances to be a Rhodes Scholar".
Oh, great idea....
"Kids today you're going to meet a fascinating young man, Mr. Isaiah M.K. Kalebu. He's hear to tell you about how one little mistake in his life messed up his chances to be a Rhodes Scholar".
58
I don't think anyone should presume to say "it won't make her surviving partner feel better." It MAY help knowing he isn't able to enjoy life since he robbed it from someone else--and that he can never do this to another woman--but as Eric said that doesn't mean it's right.
On the other hand it does seem like there are cases where people are just broken beyond rehabilitation. Criminally insane individuals like Kalebu are exactly what swing me towards the death penalty side. (I'm not talking about whether or not his living out his life in prison costs money, or whether or not he will ever contribute to society, or whether or not future murderers are deterred...but just that he cannot be allowed to ever be free and "snap" like that again.) A life sentence also potentially puts the surviving woman through the hell of having to testify at parole hearings every few years for the rest of Kalebu's life, like Sharon Tate's family...
On the other hand it does seem like there are cases where people are just broken beyond rehabilitation. Criminally insane individuals like Kalebu are exactly what swing me towards the death penalty side. (I'm not talking about whether or not his living out his life in prison costs money, or whether or not he will ever contribute to society, or whether or not future murderers are deterred...but just that he cannot be allowed to ever be free and "snap" like that again.) A life sentence also potentially puts the surviving woman through the hell of having to testify at parole hearings every few years for the rest of Kalebu's life, like Sharon Tate's family...
59
@53: "Seandr, if murder is innate, then why shouldn't it be allowed? "
The capacity for murder (and rape, theft, and non-lethal violence) is innate, but that innate capacity does not mean "innevitable". It just means that, statistically, if you put a man in a particular set of circumstances (for example, make him poor and powerless with little hope of economic advancement, feed him a steady diet of macho propaganda, and then step on his toe at a hip hop concert), violence is a highly likely outcome.
The point of criminal punishment is to alter the circumstances such that violence is a less likely outcome. (I'd add that punishment, whether death or jail time, also serves to satisfy our innate sense of fairness and justice.)
The fact that some societies have relatively lower murder rates than others shows that we can alter the environment in ways that reduce the likelihood of men realizing their potential for violence. I don't think any society has managed to reduce that potential to zero, however.
The capacity for murder (and rape, theft, and non-lethal violence) is innate, but that innate capacity does not mean "innevitable". It just means that, statistically, if you put a man in a particular set of circumstances (for example, make him poor and powerless with little hope of economic advancement, feed him a steady diet of macho propaganda, and then step on his toe at a hip hop concert), violence is a highly likely outcome.
The point of criminal punishment is to alter the circumstances such that violence is a less likely outcome. (I'd add that punishment, whether death or jail time, also serves to satisfy our innate sense of fairness and justice.)
The fact that some societies have relatively lower murder rates than others shows that we can alter the environment in ways that reduce the likelihood of men realizing their potential for violence. I don't think any society has managed to reduce that potential to zero, however.
60
Gracie,
I'm so very sorry. I wish you further on your journey of gaining peace.
Fnarf,
I'm so very sorry about your grandparents. I thank you for your thoughtful words. Take care.
Best wishes,
k
I'm so very sorry. I wish you further on your journey of gaining peace.
Fnarf,
I'm so very sorry about your grandparents. I thank you for your thoughtful words. Take care.
Best wishes,
k
61
Seandr @ 46: "Murder is a thoroughly, and, I might add, uniquely, human trait." Oh horseshit. At least as far as the latter half of the sentence.
Anyone who has even skimmed the chimpanzee literature knows that both rape and murder are not uncommon in the wild.
Your arguments on the genetic nature and/or universality of vengeance display an equally ill-informed understanding of genetics and human cultures.
At least 60 years ago anthropologists began discussing two fundamental philosophies of justice: revenge and restorative (justice here being used in the lower case form -- emphasizing cultures without formal legal/judicial systems). Restorative justice attempts to make the victims and/or their kin feel whole again. So instead of killing someone who kills your brother "blood price" is negotiated by a neutral intermediary. There are many examples of this.
Anyone who has even skimmed the chimpanzee literature knows that both rape and murder are not uncommon in the wild.
Your arguments on the genetic nature and/or universality of vengeance display an equally ill-informed understanding of genetics and human cultures.
At least 60 years ago anthropologists began discussing two fundamental philosophies of justice: revenge and restorative (justice here being used in the lower case form -- emphasizing cultures without formal legal/judicial systems). Restorative justice attempts to make the victims and/or their kin feel whole again. So instead of killing someone who kills your brother "blood price" is negotiated by a neutral intermediary. There are many examples of this.
62
Why isn't anyone here advocating for the death penalty advocating for increased funding/ assistance for people diagnosed with mental health issues? And just in case that stance isn't clear , Fnarf is correct about a civilized response ..... and yes, I have seen people who had committed terrible crimes reintegrated into society. For example, I know a man with schizophrenia who murdered his son while undignosed and unmedicated who now lives out of prison (on parole) as a fairly normal member of society due to his diagnosis and treatment. My heart goes out to Fnarf, Gracie, and TB's partner ....
63
NO, I don't know enough about Kalebu to suggest he is treatable. No one else posting here knows that either, though....
64
@ 63,
It's not that he isn't treatable, but he refuses treatment. Much like these people who believe that they have a right to be "free" and not to be "changed" by medication and therapy.
It's not that he isn't treatable, but he refuses treatment. Much like these people who believe that they have a right to be "free" and not to be "changed" by medication and therapy.
65
For the record, it is cases like these that solidify my support for the death penalty. My support for execution is rare and reserved for situations where the perpetrator(s) have stopped being a part of humanity.
We might not get rainbows and unicorns, but you could give a great life to a lot of puppies and kittens for the money we'll be spending to keep this "person" alive.
We might not get rainbows and unicorns, but you could give a great life to a lot of puppies and kittens for the money we'll be spending to keep this "person" alive.
67
I am reminding people to make sure that windows on ground level dwellings should either be shut and locked or open and secured so nobody can get into your home. Over and over again I have heard horror stories about women who do not secure their dwellings. Doors left unlocked. Windows left open. All are extremely dangerous in this day and age. And don't be afraid to learn self defense and keep pepper spray. And just an aside. Never, ever let someone force you into a vehicle. Fight as if your life depended on it and scream as loudly as you can.
68
@36
You're totally right I did say that and, at the time I did mean it, then when so many people expressed that it would, in fact, make them feel better, I knew that I was wrong, that some people actually believed it would make them feel better, and I found that sick. Perhaps I am overly sensitive, or as someone else put it "naive" ... but as I have said before, I have been a victim of a violent act and still did not wish death upon this person.
All that aside though, I do see where you are coming from, and trust me "it will not make you feel any better" is certainly not my only argument against the death penalty, I suppose I was trying to evoke a sense of empathy from people. What fascinates me is that the majority of people on this thread saying that it would make them feel better would probably instantly change their minds if they had to witness the execution itself.
And everything else aside, my heart does go out to Teresa's friends and family and her surviving partner. I found myself sobbing through this heart wrenching, terrifying story, I cannot even begin to imagine what it must have been like to have lived through it.
You're totally right I did say that and, at the time I did mean it, then when so many people expressed that it would, in fact, make them feel better, I knew that I was wrong, that some people actually believed it would make them feel better, and I found that sick. Perhaps I am overly sensitive, or as someone else put it "naive" ... but as I have said before, I have been a victim of a violent act and still did not wish death upon this person.
All that aside though, I do see where you are coming from, and trust me "it will not make you feel any better" is certainly not my only argument against the death penalty, I suppose I was trying to evoke a sense of empathy from people. What fascinates me is that the majority of people on this thread saying that it would make them feel better would probably instantly change their minds if they had to witness the execution itself.
And everything else aside, my heart does go out to Teresa's friends and family and her surviving partner. I found myself sobbing through this heart wrenching, terrifying story, I cannot even begin to imagine what it must have been like to have lived through it.
69
That was so horrific and every woman's worst nightmare. I have no problem with the death penalty in a case like this, where there is plenty of physical evidence. It's a fallacy that it's cheaper to put them to death. It's not, with all of the appeals that happen, it actually ends up being more expensive than life imprisonment.
That being said, I've been debating about whether to get a gun or not, this case just convinced me to do it...and I would have no problem killing someone who would break into my home. When it comes down to me and my girlfriend or them, the choice is pretty clear.
That being said, I've been debating about whether to get a gun or not, this case just convinced me to do it...and I would have no problem killing someone who would break into my home. When it comes down to me and my girlfriend or them, the choice is pretty clear.
70
This is a gross, horrible thing... even to the fact that my partner and I talked about what to do in a similar situation, that neither of us should take threats to the other one as a reason to not fight.
Of course, there is no real way of knowing how we would respond.. I would want her to be safe, that is certain... and me too..
I hate that we even had a discussion like this... Jesus, I wish there were something I could do for the survivor...
that is where I decided to stick... with thoughts for the survivor of this, rather than focus on what things I would like to have happen to the murderer.
Of course, there is no real way of knowing how we would respond.. I would want her to be safe, that is certain... and me too..
I hate that we even had a discussion like this... Jesus, I wish there were something I could do for the survivor...
that is where I decided to stick... with thoughts for the survivor of this, rather than focus on what things I would like to have happen to the murderer.
71
@19- Why does being armed mean sleeping with a loaded gun under your pillow? That sounds stupid. I sleep with my loaded (the only way it's useful) firearm close within reach but secure. If one of the victims had had access to a gun and known how to use it all this could have been very different. A dog can be killed by an intruder as can a male housemate. An alarm could have been good but then what? Wait for the police to come while this guy stabs you with the alarm going off? Locked windows can be broken.
73
And to be fair, I wonder why people don't ask questions like 33 more often. Not that I don't consider the question contentious... but there are a lot of pieces of shit in this world that are clearly beyond reform, yet we're legally mandated to spend valuable resources trying.
74
(And yes, I realize I'm asking this question having called into question whether the guy caught was in fact the actual guy or a scapegoat. It's still a question I think's worth mulling over.)
75
@72
Per @33
We, as human beings, have always put ourselves above animals in terms of whose life is more valuable. We use them for food, as pets, for clothing. In addition there is no such place where an animal can just go to spend the rest of their life in a prison cell. Pounds are meant for animals with the intention that they will be adopted out. In addition, by the time an animal shows symptoms of rabies it is only a matter of time before they will die and/or affect another animal or person with their disease. There is no cure or rehabilitation once the disease show symptoms. There is no proof that the offender in this case is incapable of rehabilitation. And the argument that "he will never contribute to society" can be said of a lot of people out there, so not exactly a justification for killing someone.
Yucca Flower has dehumanized this person, intentionally, so as to feel better about killing them. They have likened him to a rabid dog. They have branded him 'incurable. They have decided the worth and value of another human being's life. They are using emotionally driven "logic" to "justify" killing another person. I am sure that the offender in this case also used emotional "logic" when they brutalized and killed Teresa Butz.
I am not supporting the mother fucker, I think that he is a bastard and he did something really fucked up that is going to haunt a lot of people for a very long time. But I still do not support state sanctioned killing of a human being. And to liken them to a rabid dog is not really a fair representation. Unless, like Yucca Flower, you can easily dehumanize your "enemy." I cannot.
Per @33
We, as human beings, have always put ourselves above animals in terms of whose life is more valuable. We use them for food, as pets, for clothing. In addition there is no such place where an animal can just go to spend the rest of their life in a prison cell. Pounds are meant for animals with the intention that they will be adopted out. In addition, by the time an animal shows symptoms of rabies it is only a matter of time before they will die and/or affect another animal or person with their disease. There is no cure or rehabilitation once the disease show symptoms. There is no proof that the offender in this case is incapable of rehabilitation. And the argument that "he will never contribute to society" can be said of a lot of people out there, so not exactly a justification for killing someone.
Yucca Flower has dehumanized this person, intentionally, so as to feel better about killing them. They have likened him to a rabid dog. They have branded him 'incurable. They have decided the worth and value of another human being's life. They are using emotionally driven "logic" to "justify" killing another person. I am sure that the offender in this case also used emotional "logic" when they brutalized and killed Teresa Butz.
I am not supporting the mother fucker, I think that he is a bastard and he did something really fucked up that is going to haunt a lot of people for a very long time. But I still do not support state sanctioned killing of a human being. And to liken them to a rabid dog is not really a fair representation. Unless, like Yucca Flower, you can easily dehumanize your "enemy." I cannot.
76
I think Teresa Butz's partner should get to decide if he dies. And kill him personally, if she wants.
That said, this is horrible, and I am selfishly glad my (elderly, lesbian) parents live in a safer neighborhood (and have black belts in jujitsu, self-defense training, and baseball bats by their bed).
That said, this is horrible, and I am selfishly glad my (elderly, lesbian) parents live in a safer neighborhood (and have black belts in jujitsu, self-defense training, and baseball bats by their bed).
79
To no longer view him as a human being. To ignore his human qualities, personalities, eccentricities, soul, spirit, life, etc.
A rabid dog no longer possesses it's former self, the disease goes to the brain, it will not recognize you as it's owner, and it will die within days of showing symptoms from the disease. Relating the killer to a rabid dog is basically saying that they are no longer human, that they do not recognize the human world and that they will never come down from their manic high.
When coming off of a manic 'high' from bipolar disorder a person will reflect that they did something malicious or illegal (or sometimes less severe, but in this case, obviously very severe) during that time, but they will be unable to comprehend that it was them that did that. It will seem like a different person even if they know that they did it. It is not the same as "rabies."
I am not saying that this excuses what he did, I am saying that it does not make him less than human. This is not my only reason for being against the death penalty (by the way) I am just speaking to the contents of comment @33.
A rabid dog no longer possesses it's former self, the disease goes to the brain, it will not recognize you as it's owner, and it will die within days of showing symptoms from the disease. Relating the killer to a rabid dog is basically saying that they are no longer human, that they do not recognize the human world and that they will never come down from their manic high.
When coming off of a manic 'high' from bipolar disorder a person will reflect that they did something malicious or illegal (or sometimes less severe, but in this case, obviously very severe) during that time, but they will be unable to comprehend that it was them that did that. It will seem like a different person even if they know that they did it. It is not the same as "rabies."
I am not saying that this excuses what he did, I am saying that it does not make him less than human. This is not my only reason for being against the death penalty (by the way) I am just speaking to the contents of comment @33.
80
If somebody raped or murdered someone I loved, you're goddamn right I would want the death penalty. I would want that person ripped apart slowly.
That's why I'm glad I wouldn't be the one to make that decision.
I don't believe in the death penalty, but I don't think there's anything wrong with people suddenly changing their minds when they are affected by violent crime. Of course they change their minds! That's why we have judges and juries to decide these things; we know that our emotions affect us.
Also: I want to make sure that we understand that when rape is on the table, it's OK not to fight back. That's a totally viable option. If a man has a gun to your head, and you choose not to fight, you could save your life. That doesn't make it your fault, and it's not the same as consent. These women made the choices that they did under duress; when they realized he wasn't going to spare them, they made a desperate bid for life. But whatever they chose, none of it was their fault, no matter what.
That's why I'm glad I wouldn't be the one to make that decision.
I don't believe in the death penalty, but I don't think there's anything wrong with people suddenly changing their minds when they are affected by violent crime. Of course they change their minds! That's why we have judges and juries to decide these things; we know that our emotions affect us.
Also: I want to make sure that we understand that when rape is on the table, it's OK not to fight back. That's a totally viable option. If a man has a gun to your head, and you choose not to fight, you could save your life. That doesn't make it your fault, and it's not the same as consent. These women made the choices that they did under duress; when they realized he wasn't going to spare them, they made a desperate bid for life. But whatever they chose, none of it was their fault, no matter what.
81
@ 74 - I think the presence of ample DNA and fingerprints at the crime scene rule out any 'scapegoating' of Mr Kalebu at this point....
@ 75 - For many many years I believed as you do, that there could be no possible justification for state-sanctioned killing of a human being, i.e. the death penalty. Then I realized that we all of us, all us human beings, are here together with one another and are participating in a social contract with one another. Part of that social contract is the community's right (or state's right, if you will) to protect itself absolutely from harm from within. The social contract for the state of Washington includes the death penalty for heinous, egregious, viciously violent murderous acts such as those committed by Mr Kalebu. His mental state and his medicated/non-medicated status belong to a different discussion, but he's clearly eligible now for death, under Washington state law. (Don't forget the arson that killed another two people - 3 people dead in the wake of this man's "right" not to take his medication.)
If you don't like the death penalty in this state, act to change it. The "State" you so ominously invoke is really nothing more than the totality of voting-age citizens that make up the populace: you ARE the "State", as am I, as is Mr Kalebu. I understand that if I run a red light, I risk a ticket. Likewise, if I viciously purposefully take a human life, I risk death - at the hands of my fellow citizens (aka "The State"). I understand that, I accept it, and I do not believe that it is morally wrong, at all.
@ 75 - For many many years I believed as you do, that there could be no possible justification for state-sanctioned killing of a human being, i.e. the death penalty. Then I realized that we all of us, all us human beings, are here together with one another and are participating in a social contract with one another. Part of that social contract is the community's right (or state's right, if you will) to protect itself absolutely from harm from within. The social contract for the state of Washington includes the death penalty for heinous, egregious, viciously violent murderous acts such as those committed by Mr Kalebu. His mental state and his medicated/non-medicated status belong to a different discussion, but he's clearly eligible now for death, under Washington state law. (Don't forget the arson that killed another two people - 3 people dead in the wake of this man's "right" not to take his medication.)
If you don't like the death penalty in this state, act to change it. The "State" you so ominously invoke is really nothing more than the totality of voting-age citizens that make up the populace: you ARE the "State", as am I, as is Mr Kalebu. I understand that if I run a red light, I risk a ticket. Likewise, if I viciously purposefully take a human life, I risk death - at the hands of my fellow citizens (aka "The State"). I understand that, I accept it, and I do not believe that it is morally wrong, at all.
82
@81
I'm sorry, so because you realized that "The social contract for the state of Washington includes the death penalty for heinous, egregious, viciously violent murderous acts" you no longer find the death penalty immoral?
What was it that caused you to find it immoral in the first place? Did you not realize WA state had the death penalty?
I am allowed to disagree with the social majority of Washington State, am I not? Perhaps I do not so easily bend to the will and ways of the social majority.
However, you are correct, I have no active stand currently taking place against the death penalty. No protests planned, nor petitions signed. Only my own opinion and ability to argue it here with everyone else. That I will keep doing. As they say, you cannot change the program without changing peoples' minds.
I'm sorry, so because you realized that "The social contract for the state of Washington includes the death penalty for heinous, egregious, viciously violent murderous acts" you no longer find the death penalty immoral?
What was it that caused you to find it immoral in the first place? Did you not realize WA state had the death penalty?
I am allowed to disagree with the social majority of Washington State, am I not? Perhaps I do not so easily bend to the will and ways of the social majority.
However, you are correct, I have no active stand currently taking place against the death penalty. No protests planned, nor petitions signed. Only my own opinion and ability to argue it here with everyone else. That I will keep doing. As they say, you cannot change the program without changing peoples' minds.
83
@ 82 - I realized that there IS a social contract, one that encompasses all of us and all that we do. If we commit murder in WA, we open ourselves to the penalty of death. If we commit murder in a state that has no death penalty, then we do not open ourselves to the penalty of death.
I realized that the social contract is, of necessity, larger than any single issue. I further realized that there is no separate entity known as "The State". The State is made up of us, as our bodies are made up of cells.
Again, if you don't like the death penalty, act to change it. If enough people agree with you, change it you will.
I realized that the social contract is, of necessity, larger than any single issue. I further realized that there is no separate entity known as "The State". The State is made up of us, as our bodies are made up of cells.
Again, if you don't like the death penalty, act to change it. If enough people agree with you, change it you will.
84
@83
I hate to pester, but I am honestly curious about what it is that led to your original belief that the death penalty was immoral? Not what changed your belief.
I hate to pester, but I am honestly curious about what it is that led to your original belief that the death penalty was immoral? Not what changed your belief.
85
@ 84 - No mystery there. It does indeed seem, on the surface, to be wrong to take a human life - any human life, anywhere. (Humans already born, that is - never had a problem with abortion, never was a Right-To-Lifer.) It's probably just a function of my lingering Judeo-Christian upbringing.. It's in the bible, right? First rule? 'Thou shalt not kill' Personally I've never wanted to actually kill anyone, so the whole idea seemed repugnant and obvious to me: Don't kill people.
But then the question arose: What do we as a society do with the humans among us who can't LIVE among us? What do we do with the real predators who are NOT civilized, here in our civilization? Which is 'better', warehousing them till they die, or just removing them? (And please don't misunderstand: I'm speaking of only the worst of the worst, the real true psycho killers, the 'rabid animals' spoken of above -- those motherfuckers, what do we do with them? There's no rehabbing them, they're irretrievably broken and they've irretrievably broken the social contract.)
It's not that I'm not empathetic, it's that I value reason and the rule of law. The contract exists, dude broke it, dude forfeits life.
But then the question arose: What do we as a society do with the humans among us who can't LIVE among us? What do we do with the real predators who are NOT civilized, here in our civilization? Which is 'better', warehousing them till they die, or just removing them? (And please don't misunderstand: I'm speaking of only the worst of the worst, the real true psycho killers, the 'rabid animals' spoken of above -- those motherfuckers, what do we do with them? There's no rehabbing them, they're irretrievably broken and they've irretrievably broken the social contract.)
It's not that I'm not empathetic, it's that I value reason and the rule of law. The contract exists, dude broke it, dude forfeits life.
86
@85
I find your arguments interesting and well thought out, though I may not share your feelings on the topic and we could probably back and forth on it forever, I do appreciate you humoring and challenging me. I also want to apologize for my rants, as really, this blog post is about Teresa Butz and the incredible ordeal her and her partner went through, I feel that I have gotten lost in the secondary argument and it is undermining to what these woman experienced.
As far as what is CIVILIZED I will quote a fellow Slog commenter and leave it at that:
"Egypt. Saudi Arabia. Iran. Sudan. Afghanistan. China. North Korea. These are some of the countries that share capital punishment with us.
Australia. Denmark. Ireland. Spain. Canada. Costa Rica. These are some of the countries that have abolished it.
You tell me: civilization? Or not? Which do you want?"
I find your arguments interesting and well thought out, though I may not share your feelings on the topic and we could probably back and forth on it forever, I do appreciate you humoring and challenging me. I also want to apologize for my rants, as really, this blog post is about Teresa Butz and the incredible ordeal her and her partner went through, I feel that I have gotten lost in the secondary argument and it is undermining to what these woman experienced.
As far as what is CIVILIZED I will quote a fellow Slog commenter and leave it at that:
"Egypt. Saudi Arabia. Iran. Sudan. Afghanistan. China. North Korea. These are some of the countries that share capital punishment with us.
Australia. Denmark. Ireland. Spain. Canada. Costa Rica. These are some of the countries that have abolished it.
You tell me: civilization? Or not? Which do you want?"
87
@ *
If some day I go insane and start slaughtering people, I want to be caught and killed swiftly, painlessly, and inexpensively. I suspect most people on both sides of the death-penalty debate would feel the same way. Just make this a policy you can opt-out of, and ethics become much simpler. Everyone can make this decision for themselves.
Of course, for religious reasons some people will opt-out, and some will fight to preserve the lives of mass murderers even against their will (as last recorded while they were sane), but they will be a small minority. This should be a right-to-die issue, not a death penalty issue.
If some day I go insane and start slaughtering people, I want to be caught and killed swiftly, painlessly, and inexpensively. I suspect most people on both sides of the death-penalty debate would feel the same way. Just make this a policy you can opt-out of, and ethics become much simpler. Everyone can make this decision for themselves.
Of course, for religious reasons some people will opt-out, and some will fight to preserve the lives of mass murderers even against their will (as last recorded while they were sane), but they will be a small minority. This should be a right-to-die issue, not a death penalty issue.
88
Like others have said, if this crime happened to someone I loved, I would want the person dead. But that is why I would not be allowed to make the decision.
That's vengeance, and we're (supposed to) sentence people to get justice, not vengeance. So I'm against the death penalty. It doesn't deter crime, it's too expensive (all those appeals). There is a part of me that would be unhappy that someone got off so lightly too by being killed; spending the rest of one's life in prison sounds pretty unpleasant to me.
You might be surprised about feeling "better" if a killer is executed. I was at the sentencing for Mia Zapata's killer. It was a brutal killing I won't detail here. But I didn't feel the need to have him executed. I was unhappy he didn't get life. But it was amazing they even got the guy at all after a decade. I was pleased the jury took time to deliver the verdict, and I was pleased this man was punished. When he gets out he will be old and hopefully less dangerous.
I am sorry the women didn't think to fight back right away, or sooner. And when he was attacking one, what was the other doing? I am not taking my clothes off if someone demands it like that. I know that is a risk too; it can mean you'd be killed right away. But I have thought about these things to be prepared. The first time I was mugged, I hesitated. If I had run, I would have got away. So I learned, and the second time, I bolted right off. Yes, that was a risk; in both instances the men had at least one gun. I could've been shot. But I knew in advance I was going to take that chance. At the moment something like that is happening, you actually can't think clearly. I couldn't anyway; I guess it's the adrenaline rush, everything feels like it's happening in slow motion. And of course I was awake from the beginning. Not being awoken from sleeping.
There's a report (I think in the Times) about a woman being assaulted in her Cap Hill apt 7/5 by man who got in thru an open window. Please keep your windows shut.
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That's vengeance, and we're (supposed to) sentence people to get justice, not vengeance. So I'm against the death penalty. It doesn't deter crime, it's too expensive (all those appeals). There is a part of me that would be unhappy that someone got off so lightly too by being killed; spending the rest of one's life in prison sounds pretty unpleasant to me.
You might be surprised about feeling "better" if a killer is executed. I was at the sentencing for Mia Zapata's killer. It was a brutal killing I won't detail here. But I didn't feel the need to have him executed. I was unhappy he didn't get life. But it was amazing they even got the guy at all after a decade. I was pleased the jury took time to deliver the verdict, and I was pleased this man was punished. When he gets out he will be old and hopefully less dangerous.
I am sorry the women didn't think to fight back right away, or sooner. And when he was attacking one, what was the other doing? I am not taking my clothes off if someone demands it like that. I know that is a risk too; it can mean you'd be killed right away. But I have thought about these things to be prepared. The first time I was mugged, I hesitated. If I had run, I would have got away. So I learned, and the second time, I bolted right off. Yes, that was a risk; in both instances the men had at least one gun. I could've been shot. But I knew in advance I was going to take that chance. At the moment something like that is happening, you actually can't think clearly. I couldn't anyway; I guess it's the adrenaline rush, everything feels like it's happening in slow motion. And of course I was awake from the beginning. Not being awoken from sleeping.
There's a report (I think in the Times) about a woman being assaulted in her Cap Hill apt 7/5 by man who got in thru an open window. Please keep your windows shut.
89
This ABC article has some more background- Kalebu's family helped keep him from getting charged with the arson by telling him not to cooperate. Link http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=818489…
90
"What horrible creatures humans are."
might want to change that to what horrible creatures MEN are.
might want to change that to what horrible creatures MEN are.
91
@ 90, because women are always pure and good? Tell that to the mothers of Charles Manson, Henry Lee Lucas, and Jeffrey Dahmer.
Know a misogynist? Chances are his mother was a complete and utter bitch.
Know a misogynist? Chances are his mother was a complete and utter bitch.
92
i flip flop by the minute on whether or not i think the death penalty is ok.
But something about the "it's cheaper to let 'em live" rationale for being anti-death penalty makes me uncomfortable. when we get to the point where we consider death as a punishment, we have reached the ultimate in right vs. wrong. right is very important at that point. somehow, letting money dictate what we do seems wrong in the face of a purely moral issue.
just thinking.
But something about the "it's cheaper to let 'em live" rationale for being anti-death penalty makes me uncomfortable. when we get to the point where we consider death as a punishment, we have reached the ultimate in right vs. wrong. right is very important at that point. somehow, letting money dictate what we do seems wrong in the face of a purely moral issue.
just thinking.
93
@6 You said, "I know this is every woman's nightmare, but I think it is compounded and even more horrifying to be perpetrated on a lesbian."
You are implying, unfortunately, that it would have been less horrifying if the ladies had not been lesbians. I think that experiencing home invasion, rape, and murder, would be equally horrifying to any woman.
Even just reading about it is making me paranoid about having my windows open on a hot day in broad daylight. Crimes like this victimize not just the people who directly affected, but entire communities.
I would like to see rape of any woman treated as a hate crime. If all women are expected to keep their windows closed and locked at all times to avoid being raped, even during a 104 degree heat wave, to not go walking alone on park trails, to watch our backs while out on the street after dark, then we are all being oppressed, 24 hours a day, by each individual act of aggression against women, from assaults in parks to violent home invasions. Each violent crime against women strikes fear into the heart all women who hear of it, and oppresses us as a class by causing us to try to alter our behavior, to live less freely and comfortably in order to try to avoid becoming a victim.
The answer to the problem of male violence against women cannot be that women should just keep their doors and windows locked, especially considering that not all violence against women is committed by danger strangers like Kalebu-- many perps are known to the woman, loved ones even. The answer is also not the death penalty. Killing one heinously violent and mentally ill POS is not going to mean that I can leave my windows open at night, much less move our society towards non-violence.
It is a cop-out to say that it is just in men's biological destiny to rape and murder. If there are some cultures that have reduced male violence, rape, and murder, we should be studying them, and emulating them. (And yes, of course women are capable of violence, too, and if there are strategies that could reduce their violence we should be doing that, too.)
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You are implying, unfortunately, that it would have been less horrifying if the ladies had not been lesbians. I think that experiencing home invasion, rape, and murder, would be equally horrifying to any woman.
Even just reading about it is making me paranoid about having my windows open on a hot day in broad daylight. Crimes like this victimize not just the people who directly affected, but entire communities.
I would like to see rape of any woman treated as a hate crime. If all women are expected to keep their windows closed and locked at all times to avoid being raped, even during a 104 degree heat wave, to not go walking alone on park trails, to watch our backs while out on the street after dark, then we are all being oppressed, 24 hours a day, by each individual act of aggression against women, from assaults in parks to violent home invasions. Each violent crime against women strikes fear into the heart all women who hear of it, and oppresses us as a class by causing us to try to alter our behavior, to live less freely and comfortably in order to try to avoid becoming a victim.
The answer to the problem of male violence against women cannot be that women should just keep their doors and windows locked, especially considering that not all violence against women is committed by danger strangers like Kalebu-- many perps are known to the woman, loved ones even. The answer is also not the death penalty. Killing one heinously violent and mentally ill POS is not going to mean that I can leave my windows open at night, much less move our society towards non-violence.
It is a cop-out to say that it is just in men's biological destiny to rape and murder. If there are some cultures that have reduced male violence, rape, and murder, we should be studying them, and emulating them. (And yes, of course women are capable of violence, too, and if there are strategies that could reduce their violence we should be doing that, too.)
95
I'm so sorry for the survivor of this attack. I hope she is able to rebuild a functional life.
@34 So far, this is the only mention in this comments thread about the complete failure of both our criminal justice and mental health systems. The same judge released this guy after two separate extremely dangerous displays of how unstable he is. Maybe this was the legally necessary action, but he should not win his next election. Mental health and homeless advocates should be using this horrible crime as a rallying point for getting more people into care.
Most of the homeless individuals I work with are mentally ill. A handful are extremely unstable and have potential to be dangerous. They'll be arrested for something (usually drug or prostitution related) and held for a short time, then released. They have no community follow-up and no stability. No one tracks whether they are on their meds, and even if they are medication isn't enough to counteract the effects of sleep deprivation, hunger, and general instability. At least a couple times each week we have to ask someone to leave because of threatening behavior.
Our region has seen several murders (Shannon Harps, the guy who shot several people up in Snohomish County, the Christmas murders...) and other violent crimes perpetrated by mentally ill individuals over the past couple of years--and Seattle has pretty decent services compared to many other cities. We're not going to be safe until our mental health systems improve.
If Kalebu had remained in Western State, the people who died in the fires he set in Tacoma would still be alive. Teresa Butz would still be planning a wedding. He's not going to be released this time, but even a death sentence doesn't undo what happened--and better followup and/or longer commitment could have prevented it.
Mental health and social service benefits have been dramatically cut in Seattle and King County. There's less money budgeted to an already broken system. We are all less safe than we could be if mental health were more of a public health and safety issue than a civil rights/privacy issue and budget football.
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@34 So far, this is the only mention in this comments thread about the complete failure of both our criminal justice and mental health systems. The same judge released this guy after two separate extremely dangerous displays of how unstable he is. Maybe this was the legally necessary action, but he should not win his next election. Mental health and homeless advocates should be using this horrible crime as a rallying point for getting more people into care.
Most of the homeless individuals I work with are mentally ill. A handful are extremely unstable and have potential to be dangerous. They'll be arrested for something (usually drug or prostitution related) and held for a short time, then released. They have no community follow-up and no stability. No one tracks whether they are on their meds, and even if they are medication isn't enough to counteract the effects of sleep deprivation, hunger, and general instability. At least a couple times each week we have to ask someone to leave because of threatening behavior.
Our region has seen several murders (Shannon Harps, the guy who shot several people up in Snohomish County, the Christmas murders...) and other violent crimes perpetrated by mentally ill individuals over the past couple of years--and Seattle has pretty decent services compared to many other cities. We're not going to be safe until our mental health systems improve.
If Kalebu had remained in Western State, the people who died in the fires he set in Tacoma would still be alive. Teresa Butz would still be planning a wedding. He's not going to be released this time, but even a death sentence doesn't undo what happened--and better followup and/or longer commitment could have prevented it.
Mental health and social service benefits have been dramatically cut in Seattle and King County. There's less money budgeted to an already broken system. We are all less safe than we could be if mental health were more of a public health and safety issue than a civil rights/privacy issue and budget football.
96
"You tell me: civilization? Or not? Which do you want?""
Japan has the death penalty. Perfectly civilized place with low crime.
Japan has the death penalty. Perfectly civilized place with low crime.
97
The headline should really be "How Teresa Butz And Her Partner Didn't Fight Back Until It Was Too Late."
98
I have talked to many about this case and people who I know that are strong advocates against the death penalty blurt out this guy should die. I could not even come up with one good reason, one lame reason, why this piece of filth should be allowed to live. He not only killed T.B. there is some strong possibility he killed his aunt and her boy friend.
Seriously any of you people who raise their voices in protest of the death penalty for this "man" put your child in T.B.'s place and her partners and then tell me you would feel the same way. It is easy to say no when it does not hit your home..isn't it?
Seriously any of you people who raise their voices in protest of the death penalty for this "man" put your child in T.B.'s place and her partners and then tell me you would feel the same way. It is easy to say no when it does not hit your home..isn't it?
99
I might agree with #93 that #6's comment is a little misguided. But I'm not sure:
"I know this is every woman's nightmare, but I think it is compounded and even more horrifying to be perpetrated on a lesbian."
I'm a hetero male that has not and will not receive sex from a man. However, If I were to be raped I'm not sure it would be "worse" than a hetero girl that occasionally has consensual sex with men. Am I wrong?
I encourage all my friends(especially women) all the time to keep more weapons around. Sure men have more muscle, but all women have two index fingers. Embrace the equalizers that technology has brought us.
ABOVE ALL MY SUPPORT GOES OUT TO ALL THE VICTIMS & SURVIVORS WE"VE KNOWN AND LOVED.
"I know this is every woman's nightmare, but I think it is compounded and even more horrifying to be perpetrated on a lesbian."
I'm a hetero male that has not and will not receive sex from a man. However, If I were to be raped I'm not sure it would be "worse" than a hetero girl that occasionally has consensual sex with men. Am I wrong?
I encourage all my friends(especially women) all the time to keep more weapons around. Sure men have more muscle, but all women have two index fingers. Embrace the equalizers that technology has brought us.
ABOVE ALL MY SUPPORT GOES OUT TO ALL THE VICTIMS & SURVIVORS WE"VE KNOWN AND LOVED.
100
I have one more thing to add, why don't people sleep with baseball bats by the side of their beds? An 8 iron? something that they can fight back with. People think these things never could happen to them and yet we read where it happens all the time...I think it is wise to have some way of protecting yourself. I am pretty sure counseling for shooting an intruder is not as bad as counseling for your rape, stabbing and death of your partner before your very eyes.
101
Man is a mammal, mammals are animals, we evolved from apes.
If an animal goes mad you put it down, sad sometimes but it has to be done.
If an animal goes mad you put it down, sad sometimes but it has to be done.
102
As we post, can we bear in mind that the surviving partner may one day read these posts as part of "processing" the horror? Folks, if you want a live, exciting dialogue, go out to a coffee house or a public park or a library and engage a real live human being. Its fairly easy to do, especially when you start with a "hot button" topic like murder, mental illness, etc. I'm betting that you are not going to be as inflamatory, attack oriented, or crass in person. It is easy to couch quarterback events, and we do it so we can feel that terrifying stuff will not happen to us...we are somehow "different" than the victims. We lock our windows, or eat our Wheaties, or are heterosexual, or have guns under our pillow. the surviving partner is surely going through a living hell right now, crucifying herself with all the "If onlys". Do we need to make her feel worse? Or can we admit that life can be random and unfair and that every person faced with severe physical danger must read it and respond to it as best they can. The socialization of women to "appease" and "cooperate" probably does hurt our chances, relative to men. But every situation is unique to the people involved and this was not something any of us are qualified to make the call on. They did what they did in an effort to survive. Sometimes heroic behavior does consist of "cooperating" with greater force than you can combat immediately. We can't know, we weren't there. Lets spend some compasson on the victims and their families as well as flaming each other about the Death Penalty, mental illness, and other side stuff. Love, L
103
As we post, can we bear in mind that the surviving partner may one day read these posts as part of "processing" the horror? Folks, if you want a live, exciting dialogue, go out to a coffee house or a public park or a library and engage a real live human being. Its fairly easy to do, especially when you start with a "hot button" topic like murder, mental illness, etc. I'm betting that you are not going to be as inflamatory, attack oriented, or crass in person. It is easy to couch quarterback events, and we do it so we can feel that terrifying stuff will not happen to us...we are somehow "different" than the victims. We lock our windows, or eat our Wheaties, or are heterosexual, or have guns under our pillow. the surviving partner is surely going through a living hell right now, crucifying herself with all the "If onlys". Do we need to make her feel worse? Or can we admit that life can be random and unfair and that every person faced with severe physical danger must read it and respond to it as best they can. The socialization of women to "appease" and "cooperate" probably does hurt our chances, relative to men. But every situation is unique to the people involved and this was not something any of us are qualified to make the call on. They did what they did in an effort to survive. Sometimes heroic behavior does consist of "cooperating" with greater force than you can combat immediately. We can't know, we weren't there. Lets spend some compasson on the victims and their families as well as flaming each other about the Death Penalty, mental illness, and other side stuff. Love, L
104
@102, these boards are here for discussion. Frankly, as a victim of crime myself, and in talking to other victims, I doubt the partner is going to be reading these comments. And actually, if she does, I'd hope it would be this blog instead of some others, where some truly hateful stuff is being said. I'd advise you to post this message on some of those blogs instead, except it would be useless as you'd really be put down for it and no one would listen. At least the alleged killer has mental illness as an excuse, perhaps. I don't know what there could be to excuse the hateful, vile, ugly comments I've found about this case on other blogs. Oh, except that humans are awful and the good among us don't redeem the bad.
105
Online forums are exactly the place for controversial discussion, especially one as crass and in-your-face as the SLOG. The stranger already made a mournful article/post that was followed by an outpouring of love & paid respects.
This is the second article, which focuses on the violent details and thus the following discussion was about punishment, violence, and reaction to crime. ANY OF US WHO CONTINUED TO READ PAST THE PART THAT SAID THIS WOULD CONTAIN GRUESOME DETAILS MIGHT BE TAPPING INTO THE PERVERSE PART OF THEIR BRAIN THAT LOOKS AT CAR CRASHES INSTEAD OF AWAY. So if you are posting on this thread at all you might not be as sensitive as you claim. If you're the type of person that looks away from car crashes then you shouldn't be able to see what I'm typing right now. Maybe the Stranger is a little sick for posting this second thread at all.
Two people in a coffee shop shouting at each other about the death penalty might end in fisticuffs.
This is not a blame fight, but a discussion is a discussion, and the SLOG has always been a place for uncensored open discussion. Anyone that is being too mean is just a jerk and we all know that.
This is the second article, which focuses on the violent details and thus the following discussion was about punishment, violence, and reaction to crime. ANY OF US WHO CONTINUED TO READ PAST THE PART THAT SAID THIS WOULD CONTAIN GRUESOME DETAILS MIGHT BE TAPPING INTO THE PERVERSE PART OF THEIR BRAIN THAT LOOKS AT CAR CRASHES INSTEAD OF AWAY. So if you are posting on this thread at all you might not be as sensitive as you claim. If you're the type of person that looks away from car crashes then you shouldn't be able to see what I'm typing right now. Maybe the Stranger is a little sick for posting this second thread at all.
Two people in a coffee shop shouting at each other about the death penalty might end in fisticuffs.
This is not a blame fight, but a discussion is a discussion, and the SLOG has always been a place for uncensored open discussion. Anyone that is being too mean is just a jerk and we all know that.
106
#11 - it may not make the world a bright shiny place, and it may not cause the sudden presence of rainbow-farting unicorns - but putting this guy in a box *WILL* make quite sure he never does it again.
The crime is horrific, and the results tragic. That the ladies fought back is admirable, and I could only wish they had a better tool set that they might have planted their assailant.
The crime is horrific, and the results tragic. That the ladies fought back is admirable, and I could only wish they had a better tool set that they might have planted their assailant.
107
#104---no, I'm not so great a person as to even engage in a lot of on-line dialogue. It just was my reaction to the events and the posts. I've got some level of faith in what humans do when confronted with the full array of human reactions such as tone, facial expression, gestures, etc. And, yeah, actually I'm a tomboy, so I've been in a few fistfights. They are not nessesarilly any more cruel than verbal fisticuffs. And, generally much briefer. I hope the surviving victim does not read the commentary. Our technology has evolved much faster than the human heart and mind. I was not being particularly critical of this site. I like it or I would not have bothered posting. I'm just a posting novice, whose first post was lost in the ether because I wasn't a member or hit the wrong button. It concerned the realities of rape and fighting back. I realized that it might be taken as a "post-crit" of what the two women did, and I wasn't sure if it was going to "lag-post" after some sort of site manager review. What you read as my post was an attemt at apology to someone who does not need to have her pain compounded by the babel of anyone who owns a keyboard and has a stray reaction. Again, yeah, it is a sort of dialogue. But it is so "instantanious" that we don't do our best thinking, nor do we often stop to consider the reactions or feelings of others. Sadly, or conveniently, on-line forums seem to be about speaking, not listening. Dialoge requires both, even debate requires enough listening for rebutal of the opponents "points". Why does on-line stuff decend so quickly to personal attack? We are the same peple who probably do not shove our way forward in line, or tell our friends that their new haircuts are ugly. We do both turn to see the auto accident, and also, if the only other vehicle on the road, stop to help the victims. Why is the internet destructive of social values....anomymity has to be part of it. But not all of it. Curious.
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108
I dont get you people. This guy brutally killed this wondeful woman and forever injured another. Words cannot describe what they went through.
I say kill the bastard----slowly!! I say it with vigor.
I say kill the bastard----slowly!! I say it with vigor.
109
I'm usually not pro-death penalty: I think a long, boring, meaningless life confined to a small cell is a much more appropriate sentence. But in this case, I can justify it. Not out of any sense of vengeance, because vengeance is ultimately unsatisfying for those who seek it, but out of expediency.
This guy is nuts. Seriously mentally ill. He will never recover, and even if he did, he'll be in jail for the rest of his life. So why not euthanize him?
This guy is nuts. Seriously mentally ill. He will never recover, and even if he did, he'll be in jail for the rest of his life. So why not euthanize him?
111
wow....just execute the guy and get it over with...there should be no debating, no offering him a second chance at life, no offering him a last meal, not offering him the opportunity to speak with a priest....nothing. What did he offer these two women? What did he offer Teresa in her last few moments of life? Did she get to say her goodbyes to her partner, her mom and dad, brothers and sisters? You people who want to come on here and say that we who think he should be executed are murderers too, well let me just say, if this was your partner, wife, husband, child, or maybe this guy raped and tortured your mother and killed her....you are going to say you would not want this guy to pay with his life? Say whatever makes you sleep better at night....but if it were your family member gone, you know what you would want done.
113
I'm so disturbed by this I'm not sure what to do. It's making my quite sick. All I can think about is the woman who survived. What will she do?
I'm a heterosexual man and believe it or not, I've been the victim of a violent crime that included rape. I'm muscular, athletic, and over 200lbs so it really does happen and there are times that no amount of "arms" will save you.
No bullshit, the previous is absolutely true.
BTW, the SPD was absolutely no help to me and actually made everything worse.
I'm a heterosexual man and believe it or not, I've been the victim of a violent crime that included rape. I'm muscular, athletic, and over 200lbs so it really does happen and there are times that no amount of "arms" will save you.
No bullshit, the previous is absolutely true.
BTW, the SPD was absolutely no help to me and actually made everything worse.
114
I'm so disturbed by this I'm not sure what to do. It's making me quite sick. All I can think about is the woman who survived. What will she do?
I'm a heterosexual man and believe it or not, I've been the victim of a violent crime that included rape. I'm muscular, athletic, and over 200lbs so it really does happen and there are times that no amount of "arms" will save you.
No bullshit, the previous is absolutely true.
BTW, the SPD was absolutely no help to me and actually made everything worse.
I'm a heterosexual man and believe it or not, I've been the victim of a violent crime that included rape. I'm muscular, athletic, and over 200lbs so it really does happen and there are times that no amount of "arms" will save you.
No bullshit, the previous is absolutely true.
BTW, the SPD was absolutely no help to me and actually made everything worse.
115
firstly fnarf your an idiot.
i think the surviving woman would feel better when she goes to sleep at night knowing this guy is dead and could never break out of prison or make parole. he should die, i mean really what is the point of keeping an absolute piece of shit human being like this alive? every case is different and im not saying everyone that murders someone or rapes someone should die, but there is no coming back from what this guy has done. and spare me the mental illness issues, he doesnt even want to be medicated so chances are he'll lose his shit again and fuck someone elses life up.
* and by better i mean it might give her some slight comfort despite all the terrible things that have happened
i think the surviving woman would feel better when she goes to sleep at night knowing this guy is dead and could never break out of prison or make parole. he should die, i mean really what is the point of keeping an absolute piece of shit human being like this alive? every case is different and im not saying everyone that murders someone or rapes someone should die, but there is no coming back from what this guy has done. and spare me the mental illness issues, he doesnt even want to be medicated so chances are he'll lose his shit again and fuck someone elses life up.
* and by better i mean it might give her some slight comfort despite all the terrible things that have happened
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