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News & ArtsThursday, July 30, 2009
Hetero Every Child Deserves a Mother and a Father
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 1:51 PM
A MUM who has been banned from raising her children is pregnant for the 14th time and vows to keep having children until she's allowed to keep one. British mum Theresa Winters is 36 and apart from 2004, has been pregnant every year of her life since she was 19.All her previous 13 children have been taken off her and her partner by social workers concerned about her “lack of parenting ability."
"We just want to be a family,” Ms Winters told The Sun. “I won't stop until they let me keep one."
All her children have been adopted apart from a 14-year-old son with cerebral palsy, who is in foster care.... Ms Winters is now 25 weeks pregnant and smoked throughout her interview with The Sun.
1
I am a terrible person for laughing so hard. For some reason "I won't stop until they let me keep one" strikes me as wonderfully funny somehow.
2
Well, plenty of people want to adopt, so I guess she's doing the world a favor.
I do wonder, though, about the "smoked thourghout her interview" aside, which reads pretty clearly as an insinuation that "there's a good indication that she's an unfit parent right there!" Smoking, spanking, not wearing seat belts, spewing hate speech, etc. are not things I do or endorse, but they are things that generations of children have survived and fall far, far below the level at which the state should be intervening. What's the next upper-middle-class obsession the state should force on all parents -- serving organic arugula?
I do wonder, though, about the "smoked thourghout her interview" aside, which reads pretty clearly as an insinuation that "there's a good indication that she's an unfit parent right there!" Smoking, spanking, not wearing seat belts, spewing hate speech, etc. are not things I do or endorse, but they are things that generations of children have survived and fall far, far below the level at which the state should be intervening. What's the next upper-middle-class obsession the state should force on all parents -- serving organic arugula?
3
You forgot to add this gem:
"Whenever I have asked her why she keeps getting pregnant when she knows the baby will be taken off her she says, I don't give a s*** - I just want the Government to pay for them."
"Whenever I have asked her why she keeps getting pregnant when she knows the baby will be taken off her she says, I don't give a s*** - I just want the Government to pay for them."
6
Can't they get a court order forbidding her from parenting because she's unfit, and then by having a kid she become a parent, and is thus in contempt of court, and boom gets locked up?
7
@2: Pre-natal use of tobacco products is correlated much more strongly with childhood learning disabilities than most things, including use of almost every illicit drug.
8
@7: I will make a $50 bet with you. I bet that the mean difference in IQ between children with smoking and non-smoking mothers (when controlling for other factors) is less than the mean difference in IQ between children of bottom-income-income quintile and top-income-quintile mothers. In other words, yes, smoking instead of non-smoking is measurably bad for you child, but being poor instead of rich is measurably worse. Does that mean we shouldn't let poor people have kids?
9
Just more evidence that the UK child protective services are fascistic. Notice how there's no mention of those children actually being neglected or abused.
10
@7: Here's yet another way to look at the same issue. A large number of people who were born in the 30s through the 70s had mothers who smoked while pregnant. If you asked those people today "don't you wish child protective services had taken you away from your unfit parents?" what fraction do you think would answer yes?
11
Darwin says she wins, and is making out like a cuckoo. Given the UK, the US and most civilized nations consider breeding an inalienable right, she can keep doing this so long as her body holds out. Heck, it'll probably kill her eventually, and Darwin still says she wins.
When I emerged from the California primary school system in the '80s, I had noted some of my education requirements included a quarter of driver's education (I've never been licensed or owned a car, not that this curriculum would have helped much) and a quarter of career development which was even more useless.
Not that it would have made any difference in the above case but I'd like to have seen instead a quarter of human courtship (i.e. how to go from a single shlub to having a steady and getting laid) and a quarter of human parenting. 'Cause, y'know, it's not like those shrieking tots emerge from the womb with instructions, and today's parents seem to need basic tips like it's not okay to leave your kid in the car and sometimes baby just needs to cry.
When I emerged from the California primary school system in the '80s, I had noted some of my education requirements included a quarter of driver's education (I've never been licensed or owned a car, not that this curriculum would have helped much) and a quarter of career development which was even more useless.
Not that it would have made any difference in the above case but I'd like to have seen instead a quarter of human courtship (i.e. how to go from a single shlub to having a steady and getting laid) and a quarter of human parenting. 'Cause, y'know, it's not like those shrieking tots emerge from the womb with instructions, and today's parents seem to need basic tips like it's not okay to leave your kid in the car and sometimes baby just needs to cry.
12
Why don't they just spay her since she's been ordered not to have any more kids? I mean, if you're going to actually tell someone they can't have kids, why not go all the way?
13
I can't help but wonder if it would be legal to tie her tubes or remove her eggs. This woman shouldn't have kids, or be allowed to keep having kids for this stupid reason of wanting a family. A fucking kid does not make one's life complete.
14
Uriel-238,
Perhaps it was because I was a girl, or maybe because I was a cheerleader. I had to take a quarter of home economics, this is in the mid late 80s, and I had to carry a "baby" with me everywhere. The point was to teach us the reality of having a child. Being seen without the "baby", docked my grade, and there were pleanty of people to snitch for extra credit. In fact, damage to the "baby" damaged my grade. You didn't have the same pleasure? I was in the LA area.
I had to take typing pool, too. I wonder if they didn't think we girls/cheerleaders had big aspirations. Showed them, degrees in biology/chemistry and a stint at med school, before I came to the conclusion that I didn't really want to be either a MD or a MD/PhD.
Perhaps it was because I was a girl, or maybe because I was a cheerleader. I had to take a quarter of home economics, this is in the mid late 80s, and I had to carry a "baby" with me everywhere. The point was to teach us the reality of having a child. Being seen without the "baby", docked my grade, and there were pleanty of people to snitch for extra credit. In fact, damage to the "baby" damaged my grade. You didn't have the same pleasure? I was in the LA area.
I had to take typing pool, too. I wonder if they didn't think we girls/cheerleaders had big aspirations. Showed them, degrees in biology/chemistry and a stint at med school, before I came to the conclusion that I didn't really want to be either a MD or a MD/PhD.
16
We had to do the baby thing, too. Mine was a sack of potatoes. I put a black balloon on it and said I had adopted, which seemed reasonably edgy for rural Washington.
17
That's right Kim, I remember the '80s: Boys got a huge physical education program and girls got a raggedy volleyball net. Jocks were still regarded as the heroes of the hour and until Revenge of the Nerds were either the harmless comic relief or the axe-crazy antagonist. Heck, even Brian Johnson was the only member of the Breakfast Club not to walk out with a girl (or boy).
I really, really hope education opportunities are more gender balanced nation wide, nowadays. I know the kids around here still have to lug twenty pounds of textbooks, so I can't expect too much has changed. I'd be surprised if, in the age of abstinence only a class on actual parenting was in the primary curriculum in any state.
I really, really hope education opportunities are more gender balanced nation wide, nowadays. I know the kids around here still have to lug twenty pounds of textbooks, so I can't expect too much has changed. I'd be surprised if, in the age of abstinence only a class on actual parenting was in the primary curriculum in any state.
18
PS: wasn't forced into typing, but took it as an elective. I was miserable at their exercises and barely passed the class, this despite that I could crank out 50-60 wpm when programming or word-processing. The ability to backspace immediately and correct errors as you go is a beautiful thing.
19
@10: I wasn't aware that in the 30s through the 70s that there was a particular stigma attached to smoking for anyone, much less pregnant mothers, or much education on smoking's health effects.
I took her smoking during the interview -- completely aware she was being recorded for an activity that a majority of people, poor or rich, agrees is not exactly good for your child -- as being presented as another sign of her general "fuck you" attitude towards people who actually try to do the best for children. It's more a sign of willful belligerence than parental incompetence.
Equating smoking with poverty is a bit faulty. Let me know when they come up with a patch for being poor.
I took her smoking during the interview -- completely aware she was being recorded for an activity that a majority of people, poor or rich, agrees is not exactly good for your child -- as being presented as another sign of her general "fuck you" attitude towards people who actually try to do the best for children. It's more a sign of willful belligerence than parental incompetence.
Equating smoking with poverty is a bit faulty. Let me know when they come up with a patch for being poor.
20
My mom smoked through her pregnancies (back before they thought that was a bad thing). I was 9 pounds, my brother was 10. If smoking makes your babies underweight, how the hell big would I have grown?
As to this woman, the linked article gives a little more illumination...one child died at 18 months, she walked out of the hospital and left another child behind, and authorities took that child into custody. The other kids were mostly taken at around 2 years old, due to the parents' drinking and "aggressive" behavior. They can't afford private counseling but refuse free group counseling, so they aren't obeying the court-mandated steps for getting their kids back.
So I don't think the government is being fascistic, as #9 states. They don't wait for her to pop the kid out then round it up...obviously, Child Protective Services (or whatever the UK version is) has been brought in on many separate occasions, and they are just keeping a wary eye on this couple, since they have already proven themselves to be dangerous for the kids they breed.
As to this woman, the linked article gives a little more illumination...one child died at 18 months, she walked out of the hospital and left another child behind, and authorities took that child into custody. The other kids were mostly taken at around 2 years old, due to the parents' drinking and "aggressive" behavior. They can't afford private counseling but refuse free group counseling, so they aren't obeying the court-mandated steps for getting their kids back.
So I don't think the government is being fascistic, as #9 states. They don't wait for her to pop the kid out then round it up...obviously, Child Protective Services (or whatever the UK version is) has been brought in on many separate occasions, and they are just keeping a wary eye on this couple, since they have already proven themselves to be dangerous for the kids they breed.
21
i thought the octo-mom was bad....the most infuriating part of this is that they're both unemployed, and he is refusing to get a job unless they agree to let him keep the child. why doesn't the court make keeping the child contingent on his obtaining and keeping a job for a year or more or something? these people are acting like progeny is a right, and they have to have one. this is sickening.
22
@13: While I agree that having a kid does not make one's life complete, and I personally have no use for them, "wanting a family to make my life meaningful" is probably the #2 most common reason for having kids (after "condom broke, too stupid/lazy for morning after pill"). If we start tying tubes because people want babies to fill the void in their lives, we'll be tying like half the tubes in America.
Not that I necessarily think we shouldn't. But it would be tough to convince the voting public.
Not that I necessarily think we shouldn't. But it would be tough to convince the voting public.
23
@20: thank you!
Child Protection services in the UK don't just confiscate children for fun, trust me. In fact, they do everything possible to allow children to remain with their birth parents, and even if the child is accommodated with a foster carer due to parental incompetence/drug use/violence/criminal involvement/etc, the general process is to allow supervised or unsupervised parental contact with the child with a view to eventual rehabilitation home. If the parents can't take them, social workers look for a suitable family member or friend before they look at having strangers adopt.
On the other hand, if you've had 13 children which you obviously don't give a fuck about and either can't or won't care for, then, uhh...why should Social Services allow you to keep a child when you've shown no commitment to previous children and no desire to change?
I'd also like to add that confidentiality is a huge issue for social workers, especially those in Child Protection. Even with the other info that JunieGirl provided, I seriously doubt we're getting the whole story. If we're taking $50 bets here, I'll take one that the public and the news media haven't heard anywhere near even half of the things that make this woman unsuitable to parent. So #9, if UK CP services seem 'fascistic' to you, it's probably because they can't tell you any of the background that would fully explain their actions.
Child Protection services in the UK don't just confiscate children for fun, trust me. In fact, they do everything possible to allow children to remain with their birth parents, and even if the child is accommodated with a foster carer due to parental incompetence/drug use/violence/criminal involvement/etc, the general process is to allow supervised or unsupervised parental contact with the child with a view to eventual rehabilitation home. If the parents can't take them, social workers look for a suitable family member or friend before they look at having strangers adopt.
On the other hand, if you've had 13 children which you obviously don't give a fuck about and either can't or won't care for, then, uhh...why should Social Services allow you to keep a child when you've shown no commitment to previous children and no desire to change?
I'd also like to add that confidentiality is a huge issue for social workers, especially those in Child Protection. Even with the other info that JunieGirl provided, I seriously doubt we're getting the whole story. If we're taking $50 bets here, I'll take one that the public and the news media haven't heard anywhere near even half of the things that make this woman unsuitable to parent. So #9, if UK CP services seem 'fascistic' to you, it's probably because they can't tell you any of the background that would fully explain their actions.
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