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News & ArtsWednesday, July 29, 2009
Crime / City Your Daily Poll Dance
Posted by David Schmader on Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 11:56 AM
As Jonah noted this morning, King County prosecutors have charged Isaiah Kalebu—the man accused of the brutal South Park rapes and murder—with aggravated first-degree murder and first-degree rape, opening the possibility that prosecutors may seek the death penalty.
Also noted: Kalebu's complicated psychological history. From the Seattle Post-Intelligencer:
Facing separate charges in 2008, a state psychologist initially found Kalebu unfit to stand trial, according to court documents. After months of medication, the psychologist reversed his opinion, finding that Kalebu could stand trial but warning that "should he stop taking his medication and decompensate … further assessment of his competency to stand trial would be warranted."
But as Jonah wrote:
At a press conference this morning, King County Prosecutor Dan Satterberg addressed Kalebu's mental state during the crime. "He seemed to be a very confident rapist in charge," Satterberg said. "He knew what he was doing. In fact, he told the victims that he knew that they would call the police when he left."
Alright. If Isaiah Kalebu is indeed declared fit to stand trial and found guilty of aggravated first-degree murder...
How do you feel about giving him the death penalty?
1
If the death penalty worked, then one county in Texas (and an underpopulated one at that) would be crime-free. It isn't.
It's also way more expensive - Reichert almost bankrupted King County by seeking the death penalty - do you really hate public health so much that you want to create 5000 more homeless people just to have a death penalty trial when we can lock him up until he's dead for a heck of a lot less and justice is still served?
It's also way more expensive - Reichert almost bankrupted King County by seeking the death penalty - do you really hate public health so much that you want to create 5000 more homeless people just to have a death penalty trial when we can lock him up until he's dead for a heck of a lot less and justice is still served?
2
The problem with this "found guilty" business is, sometimes the verdicts are wrong, and state murder is the worst crime of all. Yes, yes, it sure looks like he did it, but it ALWAYS looks like he did it, and the problem with trying to draw a line between "well, obviously guilty" and "gosh, I dunno, we should err on the safe side" isn't at the obvious ends of the spectrum but right on the line.
The death penalty has historically been executed many, many times on innocent men. That's all the argument I need. Let him rot in a jail cell. It's good enough for Charlie Manson, it's good enough for this fuckup.
The death penalty has historically been executed many, many times on innocent men. That's all the argument I need. Let him rot in a jail cell. It's good enough for Charlie Manson, it's good enough for this fuckup.
3
It's just too damned bad the ladies didn't own guns. They could have blown his ass away on the spot and saved everybody a lot of trouble.
4
I want this prick to live: Live in prison and get gang raped by numerous people with untreated HIV and die a slow painful death.
6
@1 - The death penalty is a deterant, not an absolute guarantee to remove crime from society. Most credible economists agree that the death penalty deters a certain amount of crime.
Now that's not to say the benefits out-weigh the costs as both you and Fnarf bring up fair points. (Though I think one of the reasons it gets so expensive is due to the appeals process) My point is that American society receives a benefit from the death penalty.
Lastly - Anyone going to miss this guy? Is he going to solve the cure for AIDS anytime soon? Run for congress and champion a civil rights bill for homosexuals? Bring food to Africa? The answer, and I don't even have to think about it, is no. I'd hang the fucker myself.
Now that's not to say the benefits out-weigh the costs as both you and Fnarf bring up fair points. (Though I think one of the reasons it gets so expensive is due to the appeals process) My point is that American society receives a benefit from the death penalty.
Lastly - Anyone going to miss this guy? Is he going to solve the cure for AIDS anytime soon? Run for congress and champion a civil rights bill for homosexuals? Bring food to Africa? The answer, and I don't even have to think about it, is no. I'd hang the fucker myself.
7
Tell you what, I'll give up the death penalty on this guy if he gets the SuperMax treatment instead. Life, without parole, in solitary confinement. 23 hours a day with no human contact or any form if mental stimulation.
People foolishly think that death is the worst punishment that can be dealt out.
People foolishly think that death is the worst punishment that can be dealt out.
8
@6 - a deterrent? not really. most studies show that at most it might deter around one percent of all people who actually commit murder.
nice try, though, even if crimes of passion are exactly that.
nice try, though, even if crimes of passion are exactly that.
9
How about "Killing is not always wrong, but giving the state the power to coldly and deliberately execute people is always dangerous"...?
10
If he's found guilty, lock him up until he dies. No need to torture him. Reveling in vengeance does nobody any good, living or dead.
11
@8 - I would challenge your sources but I really don't want to get into that.
But lets just use your numbers are correct (which they are not) so we can move on. I said capital punishment was a deterent. You went ahead and quoted a source that supported my claim by saying capital punishment deters 1% of murders. I am confused as to how we are in a disagreement over this.
But lets just use your numbers are correct (which they are not) so we can move on. I said capital punishment was a deterent. You went ahead and quoted a source that supported my claim by saying capital punishment deters 1% of murders. I am confused as to how we are in a disagreement over this.
12
@5 FTW.
motherfucker is CRAZY. not schizo, but sociopathic, BPD, NPD, bi-polar CRAZY.
and we shouldn't give crazy people the death penalty. but we sure put down agressive dogs right and left, don't we?
motherfucker is CRAZY. not schizo, but sociopathic, BPD, NPD, bi-polar CRAZY.
and we shouldn't give crazy people the death penalty. but we sure put down agressive dogs right and left, don't we?
14
Fnarf has a great comment. Most people here have probably heard of the Innocence Project, but in case anyone hasn't:
A group of volunteers has overturned convictions through DNA testing for 240 people, after these people served an average of 12 years in prison each for crimes they did not commit. That includes 17 people who were sentenced to death. 70% of the people who were wrongly convicted have been racial minorities.
There is also a local "Innocent Project" based at UW that has exonerated 12 people in this state.
More of these convictions are overturned every year. DNA testing technology has been around at the time of most of these convictions, but since it's expensive, most poor people do not have access to this testing (or counsel who is sophisticated enough or willing to order the testing).
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
http://www.law.washington.edu/Clinics/IP…
A group of volunteers has overturned convictions through DNA testing for 240 people, after these people served an average of 12 years in prison each for crimes they did not commit. That includes 17 people who were sentenced to death. 70% of the people who were wrongly convicted have been racial minorities.
There is also a local "Innocent Project" based at UW that has exonerated 12 people in this state.
More of these convictions are overturned every year. DNA testing technology has been around at the time of most of these convictions, but since it's expensive, most poor people do not have access to this testing (or counsel who is sophisticated enough or willing to order the testing).
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
http://www.law.washington.edu/Clinics/IP…
15
I voted for #2. With some reservation. There IS a part of me that wants to see him die bleeding and naked in the street.
I'm feeling bipolar about it myself. Either "death penalty is always wrong" or ... An Eye For An Eye.
Oh and yeah, then I think Life in prison with no parole and a bunch of unfriendly jail mates and little social interaction could be torture enough.
I'm feeling bipolar about it myself. Either "death penalty is always wrong" or ... An Eye For An Eye.
Oh and yeah, then I think Life in prison with no parole and a bunch of unfriendly jail mates and little social interaction could be torture enough.
17
@7, it's nice to see people stop pussyfooting around and come straight out for torture.
Should we shove bamboo up his fingernails too? Boiling oil? The rack? CRUCIFIXION?
Should we shove bamboo up his fingernails too? Boiling oil? The rack? CRUCIFIXION?
18
What is this bi-polar defense? My dad was bi-polar for most of his life and yet never hacked anyone up. Back then it was called "manic-depressive" which means what it says. When I hear buy-polar, I think someone is selling an icebox to an Eskimo.
It's difficult to defend my anti-capital punishment stance when I support abortion rights. But hey pro-lifers are mainly pro-capital punishment. It is not OK to kill a baby in utero before they can possibly off anyone, but it is OK to kill them later when they're adults. I now hear someone saying: "But fetuses have no access to guns."
It's difficult to defend my anti-capital punishment stance when I support abortion rights. But hey pro-lifers are mainly pro-capital punishment. It is not OK to kill a baby in utero before they can possibly off anyone, but it is OK to kill them later when they're adults. I now hear someone saying: "But fetuses have no access to guns."
19
@13, I am against the death penalty in general but I have to disagree that there are absolutely no exceptions. For example: the monsters who were tried and executed at Nuremberg and in the other post-WWII tribunals.
As for this local piece of garbage, I like suggestion of the Supermax treatment.
As for this local piece of garbage, I like suggestion of the Supermax treatment.
20
@6 and @11 FTW.
@ Will in Seattle @1:
the death penalty is not as much of a deterrent as it might be, because criminals know that it is highly unlikely they will ever receive the penalty. They know they can tie up their cases, waste taxpayer $$$, and file multiple appeals for years after their conviction/sentencing.
For the ones that are caught on video tape, (e.g, there is NO doubt who committed the crime), all we need to do is allow one appeal within 90 days, no continuances or time extensions. Upon denial of the appeal, the sentence should be carried out within 30 days. done. fini. buh bye. end of deal.
THAT would send the strong message that the death penalty is real and certain, and not just words.
How can the current system possible deter anyone when they know they can play the system for years?
I completely agree with @7 Westside Forever.. I too will agree to life without parole if he goes to SuperMAX in Colorado. He doesn't qualify for it, but the idea of taking away every single creature comfort from him to drive him insane from the inside is appealing.
Every state needs to copy Texas and put an express lane into their capital murder death sentences.
As a taxpayer I'll gladly agree to admitting to mistakes with .1 % of all death penalty recipients being mistakes. Getting rid of the worst of the worst, and off the taxpayers dole is enough justification to speed up the executions of those on death row.
I'm sick and tired of an impotent justice system that does not eliminate violent animals from the ranks of the peaceful.
It's too bad we don't have a public hanging for all capital murderers.
Deterrence does work. As long as it isn't watered down with intentional stalling delays.
More...
@ Will in Seattle @1:
the death penalty is not as much of a deterrent as it might be, because criminals know that it is highly unlikely they will ever receive the penalty. They know they can tie up their cases, waste taxpayer $$$, and file multiple appeals for years after their conviction/sentencing.
For the ones that are caught on video tape, (e.g, there is NO doubt who committed the crime), all we need to do is allow one appeal within 90 days, no continuances or time extensions. Upon denial of the appeal, the sentence should be carried out within 30 days. done. fini. buh bye. end of deal.
THAT would send the strong message that the death penalty is real and certain, and not just words.
How can the current system possible deter anyone when they know they can play the system for years?
I completely agree with @7 Westside Forever.. I too will agree to life without parole if he goes to SuperMAX in Colorado. He doesn't qualify for it, but the idea of taking away every single creature comfort from him to drive him insane from the inside is appealing.
Every state needs to copy Texas and put an express lane into their capital murder death sentences.
As a taxpayer I'll gladly agree to admitting to mistakes with .1 % of all death penalty recipients being mistakes. Getting rid of the worst of the worst, and off the taxpayers dole is enough justification to speed up the executions of those on death row.
I'm sick and tired of an impotent justice system that does not eliminate violent animals from the ranks of the peaceful.
It's too bad we don't have a public hanging for all capital murderers.
Deterrence does work. As long as it isn't watered down with intentional stalling delays.
21
@11 - because you want to use my tax dollars to do vengeance killings to create a 1 pct deterrence effect when up to 20 percent of death row inmates have been proven by DNA to be innocent.
Seriously, step away from my King County Property Tax dollars! Go join the Army if you want to kill, but don't ask me to subsidize your skewed viewpoint.
Seriously, step away from my King County Property Tax dollars! Go join the Army if you want to kill, but don't ask me to subsidize your skewed viewpoint.
22
So let's do some quick #'s from a google search (hopefully the sources are legitimate)
In 2005, more than 16,000 murders took place in the US
(http://www.associatedcontent.com/article… )
59 people were executed under the death penalty in the same year. (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executio…) 58 the previous year.
So if the death penalty really does deter 1% of murders (using that figure since someone threw it out there - have no idea if it's true), that gives more than 300 murders deterred, or roughly 5 murders deterred for each execution. And it's also reasonable to hypothesize that the 300 people saved were contributing cumulatively more to society than the 60 people who were executed.
I'm not in favor of treating people like commodities, but if we start basing arguments on either cost to the state or sanctity of life, this should be a consideration.
In 2005, more than 16,000 murders took place in the US
(http://www.associatedcontent.com/article… )
59 people were executed under the death penalty in the same year. (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executio…) 58 the previous year.
So if the death penalty really does deter 1% of murders (using that figure since someone threw it out there - have no idea if it's true), that gives more than 300 murders deterred, or roughly 5 murders deterred for each execution. And it's also reasonable to hypothesize that the 300 people saved were contributing cumulatively more to society than the 60 people who were executed.
I'm not in favor of treating people like commodities, but if we start basing arguments on either cost to the state or sanctity of life, this should be a consideration.
23
@22, if that were true, the states in which the death penalty is imposed the most should have the lowest murder rates. This is not the case: 6 out of 10 of states with the lowest murder rates don't even have the death penalty.
In contrast, Louisiana blows the murder competitors out of the water and exercises the death penalty with regularity. It's not quite as execution-happy as Oklahoma or Texas, but it's in the top 10. Texas and Oklahoma should have an ever-shrinking pool of murderers, and yet... they both still have above-national average murder rates.
It's apparently not a very good deterrent if it is one at all; and the way it is administered (sometimes to kill the innocent, disproportionately in order to kill minorities, often as a drain on the court system) is reason enough to abolish executions in favor of lifetime imprisonment.
In contrast, Louisiana blows the murder competitors out of the water and exercises the death penalty with regularity. It's not quite as execution-happy as Oklahoma or Texas, but it's in the top 10. Texas and Oklahoma should have an ever-shrinking pool of murderers, and yet... they both still have above-national average murder rates.
It's apparently not a very good deterrent if it is one at all; and the way it is administered (sometimes to kill the innocent, disproportionately in order to kill minorities, often as a drain on the court system) is reason enough to abolish executions in favor of lifetime imprisonment.
24
@23 good point (assuming potential murderers are informed enough to know whether the death penalty applies in their state :)
My philosophy tends to align with #9, frankly. This is one of the few issues that I feel wishy-washy about, so I love reading people's opinions about it. Unlike, say, abortion or gay rights - people could go on and on for hours and years without any hope of changing my mind. I've always been mildly pro-death penalty but you guys are definitely making me reconsider my position.
My philosophy tends to align with #9, frankly. This is one of the few issues that I feel wishy-washy about, so I love reading people's opinions about it. Unlike, say, abortion or gay rights - people could go on and on for hours and years without any hope of changing my mind. I've always been mildly pro-death penalty but you guys are definitely making me reconsider my position.
25
@22 I'll say it again and again until some of you start understanding...
You can NOT make any statistical references or comparisons to murder rates going down due to states having a death penalty WHEN STATES WON'T USE THE PENALTY OR CRIMINALS ARE ALLOWED TO FILE 20 APPEALS!
Understand?
Noone is worried about receiving the actual sentence carried out when they know they can file appeals for another 20 years, be granted a couple stays of executions due to politics from lame duck governors, etc ad nauseum
Until Texas eliminates the slow appeals process, and we see a state have a STRONG death penalty, with a fast one chance appeals process, there IS NO COMPARISON TO MAKE.
Got it?
You can NOT make any statistical references or comparisons to murder rates going down due to states having a death penalty WHEN STATES WON'T USE THE PENALTY OR CRIMINALS ARE ALLOWED TO FILE 20 APPEALS!
Understand?
Noone is worried about receiving the actual sentence carried out when they know they can file appeals for another 20 years, be granted a couple stays of executions due to politics from lame duck governors, etc ad nauseum
Until Texas eliminates the slow appeals process, and we see a state have a STRONG death penalty, with a fast one chance appeals process, there IS NO COMPARISON TO MAKE.
Got it?
26
The option I wish was there:
"I disagree with the death penalty, but believe the state should seek the maximum legal punishment in this case. Since that's execution right now, so be it".
"I disagree with the death penalty, but believe the state should seek the maximum legal punishment in this case. Since that's execution right now, so be it".
27
@25, uhhh, Texas has a separate fast-track court system for executions. Texas has a "strong" death penalty, and provides about half of the executions for the entire country each year. So, what are you talking about?
Besides, we absolutely need the appeals system to cover for shitty public defense system and underpaid, under-supervised, and under-resourced public defenders who make stupid mistakes that end up with people dying. And even with the appeals, innocent people get killed for murders they did not commit.
Why not just chuck them in the slammer for life instead? It'd save everyone a lot of time, and it will save people from getting killed for something they either did not do, or something they were not able to fully understand (Texas executes the mentally retarded, as long the state determines that the person's IQ is 70+).
Besides, we absolutely need the appeals system to cover for shitty public defense system and underpaid, under-supervised, and under-resourced public defenders who make stupid mistakes that end up with people dying. And even with the appeals, innocent people get killed for murders they did not commit.
Why not just chuck them in the slammer for life instead? It'd save everyone a lot of time, and it will save people from getting killed for something they either did not do, or something they were not able to fully understand (Texas executes the mentally retarded, as long the state determines that the person's IQ is 70+).
28
This is one of my few wishy-washies too. I'm against capital punishment in theory, but often when I read about it carried out in the news my gut reaction is "Well, that's good". This case would probably be one of those instances.
29
@25,
And just summarily executing criminals would bring the murder rate down to zero. But that would be a FASCIST STATE, and it figures that that gives you a chubby.
By the way, Texas has the fastest, most "effective", and most death-penalty-happy system in the country. According to your logic, they should have the lowest murder rate. The opposite is true. So you're not only a fascist, you're a stupid fascist.
And just summarily executing criminals would bring the murder rate down to zero. But that would be a FASCIST STATE, and it figures that that gives you a chubby.
By the way, Texas has the fastest, most "effective", and most death-penalty-happy system in the country. According to your logic, they should have the lowest murder rate. The opposite is true. So you're not only a fascist, you're a stupid fascist.
30
You are SUCH A FUCKING IDIOT. The violent crime rate keeps plummeting and you're hiding under your fucking bed. Get a life.
I'm sick and tired of an impotent justice system that does not eliminate violent animals from the ranks of the peaceful.
You are SUCH A FUCKING IDIOT. The violent crime rate keeps plummeting and you're hiding under your fucking bed. Get a life.
31
I chose the second option, but I would have preferred the sarcastic option: "Kill him, so his victim will magically rise from the dead."
Killing him or any other convicted criminal will not bring back the people they killed. But killing him will mean another life lost, another set of family and friends devastated, another bit of our collective humanity wounded. Keep him in prison forever, just like Manson and just like we should have done for Timothy McVeigh. It's the only option available for a true civilization.
Realistically, I think the death penalty provides a chip that can be bargained away to enable successful prosecution. Gary Ridgeway gave a lot of information he might not have given if the death penalty hadn't been a bargaining chip. Still, that's not enough of a practical tool to justify abandoning the course of justice.
Killing him or any other convicted criminal will not bring back the people they killed. But killing him will mean another life lost, another set of family and friends devastated, another bit of our collective humanity wounded. Keep him in prison forever, just like Manson and just like we should have done for Timothy McVeigh. It's the only option available for a true civilization.
Realistically, I think the death penalty provides a chip that can be bargained away to enable successful prosecution. Gary Ridgeway gave a lot of information he might not have given if the death penalty hadn't been a bargaining chip. Still, that's not enough of a practical tool to justify abandoning the course of justice.
32
@17 We can argue whether the Supermax prisons are in fact cruel and unusual punishment. But the reality is there are dozens of criminals incarcerated in federal prisons under these exact conditions.
People who's guilt is not in question, like Terry Nichols, Ted Kaczynski, and Eric Rudolph, who are as deserving of the death penalty as anyone, are in Supermax cells.
People who's guilt is not in question, like Terry Nichols, Ted Kaczynski, and Eric Rudolph, who are as deserving of the death penalty as anyone, are in Supermax cells.
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