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News & ArtsSunday, July 26, 2009
Crime Guns! Guns! Guns!
Posted by Charles Mudede on Sun, Jul 26, 2009 at 3:24 PM
ESPN reports:
Former two-division world champion Vernon Forrest was shot and killed Saturday night during an attempted robbery, police said Sunday.
Fulton County medical examiner Michele Stauffenberg confirmed the case was a homicide and that the autopsy showed Forrest died from "multiple gunshot wounds involving the torso and thigh." Sgt. Lisa Keyes said a police report on the shooting was not immediately available.
WSB Radio in Atlanta first reported the shooting, citing a police spokesman. Forrest, who was 38, lived in Atlanta and was an Augusta, Ga., native.
Lt. Keith Meadows told the radio station that Forrest was shot seven or eight times — at least once in the head — as he chased at least two men who had tried to steal his Jaguar as he put air in its tires at an Atlanta gas station. Forrest had a gun and confronted the men, who fatally wounded him with two semi-automatic weapons, according to police.
"At this point we have a general description of at least two black males driving a red Monte Carlo," Meadows said, according to the report.
Keyes said that there are no official suspects at this time.
If Vernon had not had a gun, if he had let go of the fancy car, he might have been around today to talk about the robbery to the press. Turning society into a war of all against all is not the solution. I would rather be shot down by a robber than be in a situation where I'm exchanging gunfire with a robber.
1
Interesting. I believe those who advocate concealed carry are not going to look to this incident to bolster their case.
2
vernon was a decent fighter. last time, i saw him fight was his lost against mayorga.
i dont know if i agree with brother charles, but i do think that if you pull out a gun, start shooting. the robbers will shoot you and chances are they had guns pulled out on them before and they wont hesitate. hesitation is what probably killed vernon. rip vern..
i dont know if i agree with brother charles, but i do think that if you pull out a gun, start shooting. the robbers will shoot you and chances are they had guns pulled out on them before and they wont hesitate. hesitation is what probably killed vernon. rip vern..
3
I really cannot believe I read that correctly, You would rather be shot down than exchange gunfire with a robber. Good lord get a fucking backbone coward.
To bad your are still in the gene pool, but not for long Idiot
To bad your are still in the gene pool, but not for long Idiot
6
I may remind you the last words of the recent South Park stabbing victim as she bled to death in the street: "He told us if we did what he asked us to do he wouldn't hurt us. He lied, he lied."
7
@3, i'm a radical pacifist. and, as you can see, not because i fear death but because i find the concept of violent confrontation to be weak one. it looks like a bad idea. and i prefer to be on the side of good and strong ideas.
8
You had me until the last line, which was complete nonsense. Sorry Charles but I don't believe you. What you mean is that you'd rather risk being shot down by a robber despite your passive response than be in a situation where you're exchanging gun fire with a robber.
Maybe you do crave martyrdom, but I think it more likely that you just want to project the perceived nobility of one who would sacrifice his life for the principle of non-violence. All from the safety of an internet blog.
A man was killed in a truly tragic circumstance and you use it to contrive your proclaimed moral superiority. You really are a wanker.
Maybe you do crave martyrdom, but I think it more likely that you just want to project the perceived nobility of one who would sacrifice his life for the principle of non-violence. All from the safety of an internet blog.
A man was killed in a truly tragic circumstance and you use it to contrive your proclaimed moral superiority. You really are a wanker.
9
@9, the class that best meets my mode of feeling is the cosmopolitan class. and i mean cosmopolitan in both kants and hall/appiah sense. now how can a cosmopolitan person (a person who strives to improve, to strength civil relations) be seen carrying a gun or exchanging bullets with little people? guns have no place in the big city. if you want your guns, go out to the country and enjoy them.
11
Charles,
I read that piece too regarding Forrest. Thanks for relaying it. Yet another example of the fratricide. Sigh, bloody insane. It is also not too far removed from the horrible murder of NFL quarterback Steve McNair. Granted, he was killed by his mistress but yet another young black male goes down in hail of violence. This is just shocking. The sense of urgency is critical. Keep us posted Charles.
I read that piece too regarding Forrest. Thanks for relaying it. Yet another example of the fratricide. Sigh, bloody insane. It is also not too far removed from the horrible murder of NFL quarterback Steve McNair. Granted, he was killed by his mistress but yet another young black male goes down in hail of violence. This is just shocking. The sense of urgency is critical. Keep us posted Charles.
12
I like some of your writing Charles, I'm not one of your haters, but I disagree with you on this one. And disagreement is fine, as long as our disagreement doesn't get codified into law disempowering me and others from our right to defend ourselves. I'm all for you and others who don't wish to carry guns not doing so and I can totally respect your beliefs in the matter.
I'm also not so sure that things wouldn't have went down similarly if Vernon hadn't had a gun. I'm sure he was confidant of his fighting skills. And even if the car-thief-murderers hadn't had guns, had he caught up to them they no doubt would've knifed him.
Bummer about Vernon though. He should've have been content to scare them off.
I'm also not so sure that things wouldn't have went down similarly if Vernon hadn't had a gun. I'm sure he was confidant of his fighting skills. And even if the car-thief-murderers hadn't had guns, had he caught up to them they no doubt would've knifed him.
Bummer about Vernon though. He should've have been content to scare them off.
13
What the f**k??? The last sentence is the craziest comment I ever read. Mudade would rather be murdered by a robber than getting the chance to save his own life? How insane is that? Well Mr. Mudade, many of us love our lives and wish to live on and spend more time with our friends and family. There are videos on youtube that show people being murdered. I'm sure every one of those victims while horribly dying and breathing their last breath wished they had the opportunity to fight off their attackers! I hate the NRA as much as the next liberal, but please don't make such stupid statements!!
14
Charles, I don't think I'd like to be shot at or exchange gunfire with a robber. I think the best thing you can do is just let the car or what-have-you go....along with running like hell to the nearest safe location to call the cops. They're the ones who are trained and paid to exchange gunfire with robbers.
p.s. Ignore the machismo bull shitters calling you a coward. In any case they'd probably wet themselves if confronted with two armed robbers.
p.s. Ignore the machismo bull shitters calling you a coward. In any case they'd probably wet themselves if confronted with two armed robbers.
15
@9, I'm a bit puzzled by your response. I think maybe you misunderstood my criticism of your post. I too uphold non-violence as an ideal. I too support gun control. Happily I live in a country which has strict gun control, and far fewer incidents of gun related crime. I too would repudiate the idea of chasing attempted robbers on foot with a firearm.
My criticism relates purely to the last sentence, which was not predicated on the context of Forrest's situation. My point is twofold: 1. I'd like to think that, when faced with a difficult decision, I'd place my principles above my safety, but I've never been in that situation and therefore don't presume to know if I'd have the moral strength to hold to the ideal (not that I'd agree that non-violence precludes fighting in self-defence); and 2. I object to the way you postulate a sense of moral superiority over a man who has just been tragically murdered.
My criticism relates purely to the last sentence, which was not predicated on the context of Forrest's situation. My point is twofold: 1. I'd like to think that, when faced with a difficult decision, I'd place my principles above my safety, but I've never been in that situation and therefore don't presume to know if I'd have the moral strength to hold to the ideal (not that I'd agree that non-violence precludes fighting in self-defence); and 2. I object to the way you postulate a sense of moral superiority over a man who has just been tragically murdered.
17
That came out badly @15. I meant "Happily the country in which I live" not "Happily I live in a country", because I happen to love America and would love to live there, guns or no guns. Not that you'd ever know it from the fact that I spend way too much time trespassing on a US blog or anything...
19
I don't believe he (Mr. Mudede) meant to exclaim a moral superiority. I took his tone as wistful and thoughtful, and even wishful. It's a hard position to take, and as many of you have pointed out, it's even harder to know if you really will (can) hold that line when push comes to shove--nevertheless I find it positive, and for that I appreciate it.
20
I'm a pacifist, perhaps, its because I come from a long line of Quakers. I can't see chasing down an assailant for a car, or because they threatened me. I can't see myself owning a gun, thus, I can't see returning fire when fired upon. I do know the time I was backhanded, I didn't hit back nor did I run and cower. Still, I would never want to face the situation Mr. Forrest found himself in. His death is tragic, and could have possibly been avoided had he made a different decision, we will never know. He isn't here to share his reasoning, and we are left to wish him peace. My condolences to his family and friends.
21
I agree with Kim that we will never know what might have happened if Mr Forrest hadn't been armed. We only know what did happen and that it was a tragic waste. Stuff is just stuff and, in my opinion, not worth dying for. As far as predicting how one might respond in a life threatening situation with any certainty goes- I don't think you can. You won't know until it happens. I would also like to ask all those who are willing to die rather than defend themselves (and I firmly believe that pacifism is a noble and difficult concept) what they would do if it was not their own life that would be sacrificed but the life of a loved one. It gets trickier doesn't it? It's one thing to say that you will lay down your own life, it's another (and it should be) to say you would lay down the life of your child or sibling or partner.
22
@21: Of course, part of Charles point is that -- at least from the way the story is written -- this wasn't a life-threatening situation until the victim escalated it to one. The story implies that the killers had already given up trying to take the car, and the victim was chasing them with a gun. There is no indication he was defending himself or the car, but attempting to play cop and catch the crook. Had they not responded with force, he likely would be in jail for attempted murder.
Unless the story is a horrible misrepresentation of what occurred, this was simply someone who was very foolish and armed.
Unless the story is a horrible misrepresentation of what occurred, this was simply someone who was very foolish and armed.
25
Lissa,
You propose a situation that I never want to face. In my heart of heart, I'd rather step in the way of a bullet, then live and know that I could have saved someone else. I'd rather take the punch, than allow someone else to be punched. Of course, being punched doesn't compare with a bullet, but I've survived the fist and so I have less fear in regard to it. You are correct, I will never know definitively until that moment. Nor, can I discount that I wouldn't hit back to defend another. I can't truly answer your question. I can only hope that I and you never have to face it.
You propose a situation that I never want to face. In my heart of heart, I'd rather step in the way of a bullet, then live and know that I could have saved someone else. I'd rather take the punch, than allow someone else to be punched. Of course, being punched doesn't compare with a bullet, but I've survived the fist and so I have less fear in regard to it. You are correct, I will never know definitively until that moment. Nor, can I discount that I wouldn't hit back to defend another. I can't truly answer your question. I can only hope that I and you never have to face it.
26
"...someone who was very foolish and armed." Sadly, what we have all too many of right here in Seattle.
27
@25 Kim, I feel the same. My impulse is to protect those around me ( which might be viewed as laughable considering my itty bittyness). I too, have faced the fist, and in that case took it, as escalation on my part was not prudent. In another much more violent and indeed life threatening situation I fought back. It was a toss up who was more surprised, my attacker or myself. Every violent encounter is different. I too hope that we are never faced with my awful hypothetical.
30
Thankfully the second amendment protects us from people taking guns away who would rather lay down and die than even try to defend themselves. If you want to die without a fight that is your choice, but it is not a decision you get to make for me.
Also he was an idiot for running after a stolen car with a gun. Guns are for defending yourself when your safety is at risk, not for dealing instant justice against a robber.
Also he was an idiot for running after a stolen car with a gun. Guns are for defending yourself when your safety is at risk, not for dealing instant justice against a robber.
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