Friday, July 24, 2009
Retail Conspiracy Theory of the Day
Posted by Dominic Holden on Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 3:16 PM
Grocery stores plan to fire all of their checkers and replace them with robots:
These dozen self-checkout machines are a test program at the QFC on Broadway, a store employee tells me, and that if all goes well, QFC will install them in all of its roughly 80 stores. The employee expects "at least 100" people will be laid off as a result. And the person also notes that, "They are always looking for an excuse to fire people." God, the indignity of being fired and replaced by one of these infuriating boxes (which aren't difficult to use but are tedious and make me think twice about buying bar-code-free produce).
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2
That's my biggest complaint -- the bag shelves are too small. But you know, almost all of your produce has a little sticker on it somewhere with the magic code.
6
How many people gain employment in the company that makes these things? Are their wages higher or lower than the checkers losing their jobs? Are the savings passed on to me in the form of lower prices, allowing me to blow more cash elsewhere, or buy higher quality groceries? Will this result in the ability to provide greater customer service in other areas of QFC, such as the deli, pharmacy, bakery, or meat department?
I would like to know the answers to these questions before I pass judgment.
I would like to know the answers to these questions before I pass judgment.
7
I feel bad for anyone about to lose their job, but in most cases cashiers are just about as useful as elevator operators.
8
I've seen these in the store for nearly 3 years. The exact number of registers too. Not sure why your so late to this story, but its been happening for a LONG TIME!
9
@6:
Not many.
Probably higher, but there are certainly far fewer of them than the laid off checkers.
Hell no.
Ability? Yes. Actual provision of said customer service? Almost certainly not.
Not many.
Probably higher, but there are certainly far fewer of them than the laid off checkers.
Hell no.
Ability? Yes. Actual provision of said customer service? Almost certainly not.
10
I always seem to get the surly/dis-interested self-check machine, it's like "do YOU have any coupons?" and "thank you for shopping with us, ugh"
though some of 'em can be pretty flirty too.
though some of 'em can be pretty flirty too.
11
Good riddance to those checkers. Humans are obsolete. The question now is who will chase me down when I try to swipe a bottle of wine? Robocop?
12
poor ol' homeless dudes are going to lose their shoulder-tapping money from underage drinkers, these look easy to manipulate by scanning N/A beverages and then placing the beer on the done side.
13
For produce, You need to punch in the codes using the reference book mounted above the unit.
I refuse to use these machines and my friends think I'm crazy for it. But I knew this was coming and I won't be a part of people losing their jobs to these stupid things.
I refuse to use these machines and my friends think I'm crazy for it. But I knew this was coming and I won't be a part of people losing their jobs to these stupid things.
15
Eh. Because of the internet and financial analysis software, in my first job out of college (in 2000) I was probably doing the work of 10-15 people circa 1990. Society and our economy become more efficient. One person (the self-check overseer person) can do the job previously done by many (the cashiers). Such is life.
16
Wait... "at least 100" people get let go from "roughly 80 stores."
Not to defend robots or anything, but maybe they're just using this opportunity to fire one douchebag employee per store.
I mean, let's be honest, there's ALWAYS one on the payroll. Often a couple. Perhaps the people screeching the loudest are the ones with the most reason to worry.
Where's the management's perspective on this?
Not to defend robots or anything, but maybe they're just using this opportunity to fire one douchebag employee per store.
I mean, let's be honest, there's ALWAYS one on the payroll. Often a couple. Perhaps the people screeching the loudest are the ones with the most reason to worry.
Where's the management's perspective on this?
17
I fucking hate those machines.
"Please put your item in the bag"
"Its in the bag..."
"Please put your item in the bag"
"Its in the fucking bag, robo asshole!"
"Calling attendant......."
"Please put your item in the bag"
"Its in the bag..."
"Please put your item in the bag"
"Its in the fucking bag, robo asshole!"
"Calling attendant......."
18
@1 the new machines work fine with that, as they give you a "Skip bagging" button. Older machines acted at the mercy of the scale where you bag, so if you had really light stuff or you put your purse down there, or you tried to remove bags while still scanning because you were running out of room you'd need a person to clear the error or put the stuff back.
The QFC a block away from my house has had self-check machines since at least 2003 when I moved in, and switched over to the new machines earlier this year. I love the convenience, but I hate the fact that so many people are simply incapable of understanding how to work them. I've literally watched 3+ customers scan through one machine while another was tied up by a clueless person who was apparently unable to follow clearly written and spoken instructions.
It sucks about the job loss, but when I'm doing a quick grocery run I'd much rather go through a self-check as I can get out faster than waiting in line for a person to scan everything.
The QFC a block away from my house has had self-check machines since at least 2003 when I moved in, and switched over to the new machines earlier this year. I love the convenience, but I hate the fact that so many people are simply incapable of understanding how to work them. I've literally watched 3+ customers scan through one machine while another was tied up by a clueless person who was apparently unable to follow clearly written and spoken instructions.
It sucks about the job loss, but when I'm doing a quick grocery run I'd much rather go through a self-check as I can get out faster than waiting in line for a person to scan everything.
19
Have you not been in a grocery store in the 4 or 5 years? Those things are all over and kick ass when you are only buying a couple things.
As for employees, less labor costs equal cheaper goods equals I have more money to spend on other things equals jobs in new industries.
If people were spending on food what people had to in the fifties they would probably not be able to afford internet service or a cell phone. Think of all those jobs.
As for employees, less labor costs equal cheaper goods equals I have more money to spend on other things equals jobs in new industries.
If people were spending on food what people had to in the fifties they would probably not be able to afford internet service or a cell phone. Think of all those jobs.
20
@15 Unless two (or more) people simultaneously have problems with their self-checkout stations. Then things go from zero to clusterfuck pretty quickly.
21
Well, if there's any truth to this rumor, they must have some as-yet-unrevealed plan for handling customers who buy more than two bags of groceries.
Anyway, if it is true, is that such a tragedy? I've always appreciated chit chatting with my friendly neighborhood QFC cashier, but surely their time would be better spent at some other job that actually needs doing... anyway, cashiering at QFC doesn't sound like the kind of gig I expect to hear anyone crying over.
Anyway, if it is true, is that such a tragedy? I've always appreciated chit chatting with my friendly neighborhood QFC cashier, but surely their time would be better spent at some other job that actually needs doing... anyway, cashiering at QFC doesn't sound like the kind of gig I expect to hear anyone crying over.
23
Frankly, I'd rather wait in a human checkout line behind an argumentative welfare queen trying to redeem a fistful of expired coupons, than use one of those stupid machines.
24
@19 Just keep holding on to your fantasy that the stores are going to pass the labor cost savings on to you. You're giving grocery store corporate offices way too much credit.
25
On Post Secret a few weeks ago, someone sent a picture of one of those self-check machines with the caption "I have saved more than $200 over the last year pretending all my produce is BANANAS."
Just sayin'.
Just sayin'.
26
Wow... welcome to this century. This is the most "golly gee what will they do next" piece of "news" since G.H.W Bush discovered the bare code scanner. You need to get out more.
27
I really dig that the assumptions in this post are based on the comments of one anonymous QFC employee.
By the way: Most store-bought produce have little stickers on them -- and usually, that sticker has a 4-digit number (and if not, there's usually a pictorial chart of fruits/numbers just about the machine ... just like a teriyaki restaurant!). When it's that piece of produce's turn to be checked out, all you have to do is press a button, type in those four digits, hit enter and be on your way. It's the same thing a human checker does.
Get over it or grow your own.
By the way: Most store-bought produce have little stickers on them -- and usually, that sticker has a 4-digit number (and if not, there's usually a pictorial chart of fruits/numbers just about the machine ... just like a teriyaki restaurant!). When it's that piece of produce's turn to be checked out, all you have to do is press a button, type in those four digits, hit enter and be on your way. It's the same thing a human checker does.
Get over it or grow your own.
29
My local supermarket doesn't have a "real" checker on duty before 8:00 in the morning. Since I frequently shop before then, I get stuck using these fucking machines a lot. I hate them. They never work right. And when they fuck up at 7 a.m., there's no attendant on duty either, so you're really hosed.
30
That's "bar code scanner" not "bare code scanner" (which is often confused with the ever popular "bare co-ed scanner").
31
The self-check only works if you have a few items. Buying for the week is a no-go. If you think Kroger, Inc. will use the money it saves on labor to reduce the cost of grocery items, well, missy, I have some primo land in Florida you might be interested in buying.
Wal-Mart started the self-check and it may use its savings to hold down prices, but that isn't the Kroger model. Kroger is only interested in maximizing profit.
Wal-Mart started the self-check and it may use its savings to hold down prices, but that isn't the Kroger model. Kroger is only interested in maximizing profit.
32
I used to shoplift when I was in junior high but stopped once I passed puberty and now never do. Except when forced to use these damn things. Bananas galore, indeed- courtesy discount for frustrations suffered. I've noticed less of them lately where I live- probably too many folks like me.
33
ohh silly, silly humans, your machines have risen against you & your produce procurement needs BWAH-HA-H.... oh crap thwarted by fuckin sticker with a PLU # on it,
grrrrr we'll be back!!!!!
grrrrr we'll be back!!!!!
34
These machines are all over the northeast. We now actually have new machines where you take a handheld scanner around with you while you shop and then pay for it when you leave so the machines in this article are being made obsolete as well. Despite all this there are still plenty of human checkout people.
35
@20, this is true. I find that less frustrating actually than the "item removed from bagging area" error message. But, overall, those things save me time when I have <15 things or so, so I put up with them.
36
The Jack In The Box on 50th and U way now as an automated order kiosk. Just touch screen your order and the counter person retrieves it for you. If you act now any combo ordered via the kiosk comes with two free tacos. Too bad it doesn't also come with a change of underpants.
38
I graduated college in 1995. In my college town the local Taco Bell tried to automate the ordering process. I loved the process. Push buttons to select items, a few more buttons to add or remove particular bits, and then a place order button - presto, my order was placed my way.
Taco Bell ultimately decided that the human attendant worked better. Within 6 months the machine was gone. I haven't seen one since.
Taco Bell ultimately decided that the human attendant worked better. Within 6 months the machine was gone. I haven't seen one since.
39
As far as "cost-savings" goes, yeah right. I'm old enough to remember when ATMs first came out, and they were going to save a fortune because they wouldn't have to pay the tellers. But it turns out that buying the machines, installing the machines, maintaining the machines, repairing the machines, writing software for the machines, and so costs a lot more than advertised -- so banks started charging fees. This was unpopular, so the fees only go to people using the machines of other banks.
In grocery stores, the bottleneck, as Hernandez points out, is going to be when you've got twelve of these things all going on the blink at once, or even just two of them. Many Americans are not intelligent enough to get through these without fuckups even if the machines themselves don't malfunction.
I wonder what their shrinkage rates are going to look like. I'm guessing these things are way easier to steal from (a couple of examples are above).
In grocery stores, the bottleneck, as Hernandez points out, is going to be when you've got twelve of these things all going on the blink at once, or even just two of them. Many Americans are not intelligent enough to get through these without fuckups even if the machines themselves don't malfunction.
I wonder what their shrinkage rates are going to look like. I'm guessing these things are way easier to steal from (a couple of examples are above).
40
these are fine when you have a tiny amount of groceries to buy but not so fine if you're stocking up, or buying food for a holiday or party or have to shop for a family...i wouldn't want to be in line for one of these with a store full of exasperated moms with kids or an older person with mobility issues.
41
It sucks to lose a job, I know, a luddite-type attitude en masse is pretty harmful for the economy. Trying to protect jobs that have been made obsolete by technology is completely counterproductive. You might protect the jobs for a few years, but they are still on their way out, and the people who hold on to those jobs face a huge opportunity cost in terms by gaining years of experience in an obsolete field.
In other words, on average, it's going to be better to be the first stenographer laid off (and then go pursue a more modern career), than to hold on to your stenography position for 15 years after the skill becomes largely unnecessary and then have to look for a job with no skills but stenography.
In other words, on average, it's going to be better to be the first stenographer laid off (and then go pursue a more modern career), than to hold on to your stenography position for 15 years after the skill becomes largely unnecessary and then have to look for a job with no skills but stenography.
42
never once have i used self-checkout and NOT had an attendant come to "assist" me with some bullshit. just let people scan our groceries, jesus.
43
They are the BEST for scamming organic produce - just use the code for the regular crap.
Also, it's much easier to shoplift using them, as the kids at the old Rainier Beach QFC and Rainier Safeway found out. They ended up pulling them out and going back to the old way.
Also, it's much easier to shoplift using them, as the kids at the old Rainier Beach QFC and Rainier Safeway found out. They ended up pulling them out and going back to the old way.
44
if it was safeway it would be an upgrade. Those fuckers ALWAYS assume i need a billion plastic bags even when its obvious i have brought my own cloth bags.
45
Shop at Madison Market up the street. Good, fast, very knowlegable checkers who aren't fired if they express themselves. The same product is almost always cheaper there, too (sometimes much much cheaper, such as spices). Produce is generally more expensive, since it's all organic and local whenever possible. They have tags on the shelves that list local products. If you haven't been there in a while, they've made great impovements to checkout speed in the last year.
46
I don't mind using the self-checkout. I do mind that when I need some assistance or the thing freaks out, invariably the person working at the Broadway Market QFC self-check desk is standing with their back turned to the six self-check stations, gossiping and not noticing the two or three people who need their IDs checked or whatever. Hopefully that guy is the one who'll be let go there.
47
I am now convinced that QFC, Bank of America and Chase are following some Harvard MBA bible called _Alienate Customers for Higher Profits_. That business policy has done outrageously well in the U.S. At least the robo-checkers don't get allergies to promotion hay, or get snippy with you if you don't have an "Advantage Card" with you. QFC actively works to get me to spend my food dollars at public markets or higher-price specialty food stores.
48
I do not find this alienating, I enjoy not having to mumble inane pleasantries to random checkers. The Stranger's anti-machine, pro-human bias is obvious here.
49
@40 I just noticed today that the Woodinville CostCo has self-check machines, so they must be workable in bulk. I didn't try it today, but the next time I go to a CostCo with self check I'm definitely doing it.
For all of the people complaining about failures with the machines (99% user error) and lack of attendants, all of the Kroger machines I've seen are staffed with an attendant that has a remote handheld that can clear errors without even being near the self-check. Most of the time they're on the ball and will clear the error before you even have time to notice, but even if not you just have to push the "call for help" button and the error will be quickly resolved.
The only frustration I've ever had with self-check is the users who can't figure them out, thus slowing the rest of us down.
For all of the people complaining about failures with the machines (99% user error) and lack of attendants, all of the Kroger machines I've seen are staffed with an attendant that has a remote handheld that can clear errors without even being near the self-check. Most of the time they're on the ball and will clear the error before you even have time to notice, but even if not you just have to push the "call for help" button and the error will be quickly resolved.
The only frustration I've ever had with self-check is the users who can't figure them out, thus slowing the rest of us down.
50
@36
I used that Jaybo's kiosk a week ago and got 8 free tacos I didn't ask for. Some bugs still in the system, apparently.
I used that Jaybo's kiosk a week ago and got 8 free tacos I didn't ask for. Some bugs still in the system, apparently.
51
Been using them for a year plus, and when they work they are fast, but when they have a problem its a problem. Not to mention I always forget the code that tell the machine I have my own canvas bags.
52
If you're seeking out mechanical purity, Trader Joe's and Safeway's got none of these things ;P
Really, checkers are not obsolete. The auto-checkstands are express lane checkstands, since you can't physically bag a large order there yourself. Every store that has them requires the same 15 items or less an express checkstand would require. When I make a big shopping trip, in fact, I like having a checker/bagger bag my groceries to make sure the weight's distributed properly, since I have to hand carry them home. Sure, you lose the express checkers, but we're talking 1-2 stands. It moves people along faster and allows the remaining checkers to focus on moving the larger orders through quicker, which improves customer service and helps get people out of the supermarket faster... plus orders from the elderly and others who struggle with the electronic checkstands.
P.S. Andy, toss your cloth bags on the belt in front of your groceries. That'll get their attention.
Really, checkers are not obsolete. The auto-checkstands are express lane checkstands, since you can't physically bag a large order there yourself. Every store that has them requires the same 15 items or less an express checkstand would require. When I make a big shopping trip, in fact, I like having a checker/bagger bag my groceries to make sure the weight's distributed properly, since I have to hand carry them home. Sure, you lose the express checkers, but we're talking 1-2 stands. It moves people along faster and allows the remaining checkers to focus on moving the larger orders through quicker, which improves customer service and helps get people out of the supermarket faster... plus orders from the elderly and others who struggle with the electronic checkstands.
P.S. Andy, toss your cloth bags on the belt in front of your groceries. That'll get their attention.
53
P.P.S. Or at least the Safeways I've seen have not. I'm guessing if any have them, they're among the minority. But I know Trader Joe's totally does not.
54
They must be counting on the general honesty of the American populace. It's pretty easy to scan one item and then put several down on the scale simultaneously, and the underpaid attendant doesn't care and can't watch 10 people simultaneously.
55
Buying bulk items through the self-checkout is a pain in the ass. I can't imagine produce is much easier. But there are usually only self-checkout machines available on the west side of the Broadway Market QFC, so I put up with it.
56
Dominic Holden 2009 = George H. W. Bush 1992. Can we expect a full expose on Napster anon?
I can't wait for Dominic's 'A Thousand Joints Alight' speech.
57
Y'know, I totally don't mind using these for medium-to-small shopping trips. But if I had to use these for a big shopping trip I would want to shoot myself. For one thing, the process is effin' slow, what with all the repetitions of "please place the item in the bag" blah blah blah. And for another, there isn't that much counter space for buying more than a few items.
58
When we went to pump-it-yourself gasoline, it was to save a significant amount on the cost per gallon. The savings from check-it-yourself groceries, however, accrue not to the customer but to the store, 100%.
First time I walk into a QFC and see this setup, I'm gone for good.
First time I walk into a QFC and see this setup, I'm gone for good.
59
Dominic, have you really been that high for the last, oh, decade? These are not a new phenomenon, nor are union complaints about them. But the unions and their employees are still around.
And yes, if your pot-addled brain can't remember the 4-digit code for your produce either from the time you carry it from the produce section to the register or from the last time you bought 47 of whatever munchie-style fruit you desired, then you should avoid purchasing such items from the robots.
And yes, if your pot-addled brain can't remember the 4-digit code for your produce either from the time you carry it from the produce section to the register or from the last time you bought 47 of whatever munchie-style fruit you desired, then you should avoid purchasing such items from the robots.
60
I'd like to second all the people who mentioned how easy it is to steal with these things. If the one cashier overseeing the check-outs isn't paying attention or is helping someone else, it's so easy to bag a couple of things at once.
http://www.theginblog.com/2007/12/hackin…
http://www.theginblog.com/2007/12/hackin…
61
OK...about this stealing thing.
There's a small, domed overhead camera at each check-out station that records whether or not you scan an item before bagging it. So even if the attendant misses it on his/her screen, there's a visual record of it. Do you think grocery chains didn't consider every shoplifting possibility involved when they installed the self-check kiosks?
So, aside from it being morally wrong (and it is) to steal (even from an over-priced grocery store), there's the real possibility that sooner or later, you're going to get caught, and if you are, it's going to cost you A LOT more in legal costs than the price of the item(s) you've lifted. Plus, you probably will be spending at least some time in jail with some very, very creepy people.
Using the self-check kiosks to rip-off groceries is not recommended. Sorry to be a killjoy.
And all the Safeways in Vancouver, BC have self-check now.
There's a small, domed overhead camera at each check-out station that records whether or not you scan an item before bagging it. So even if the attendant misses it on his/her screen, there's a visual record of it. Do you think grocery chains didn't consider every shoplifting possibility involved when they installed the self-check kiosks?
So, aside from it being morally wrong (and it is) to steal (even from an over-priced grocery store), there's the real possibility that sooner or later, you're going to get caught, and if you are, it's going to cost you A LOT more in legal costs than the price of the item(s) you've lifted. Plus, you probably will be spending at least some time in jail with some very, very creepy people.
Using the self-check kiosks to rip-off groceries is not recommended. Sorry to be a killjoy.
And all the Safeways in Vancouver, BC have self-check now.
62
These things are great when it comes to getting in and out of the store quickly-- especially during off-peak hours. Quit complaining!
Think about it in terms of "number of checkout stations per square foot." Looking at that picture, you could *maybe* fit in 6 regular checkout lanes compared to 12 self-checkout lanes. It might take 10-15% longer to check out on one of these machines, but lines just got half as long. But that's not entirely true, either. Most places schedule manned registers such that lines will be 2-5 people long no matter how busy the store is. With unmanned registers, this is no longer the case. During off-peak hours there are rarely lines at the self-check stations.
To me, this is not much different than pumping your own gas and paying with a debit card at the pump. All that said, still I feel bad for anyone who loses a job due to this type of streamlining.
Think about it in terms of "number of checkout stations per square foot." Looking at that picture, you could *maybe* fit in 6 regular checkout lanes compared to 12 self-checkout lanes. It might take 10-15% longer to check out on one of these machines, but lines just got half as long. But that's not entirely true, either. Most places schedule manned registers such that lines will be 2-5 people long no matter how busy the store is. With unmanned registers, this is no longer the case. During off-peak hours there are rarely lines at the self-check stations.
To me, this is not much different than pumping your own gas and paying with a debit card at the pump. All that said, still I feel bad for anyone who loses a job due to this type of streamlining.
64
@24 The fact that food costs have been on the decline suggests they do. Not to mention our good friend competition kicks in. If QFC does this they can undercut Safeway and in turn force them to cut costs and lower price. Pretty much everything is cheaper today then it was in the past hence why we have a lot more shit.
Only in anti-corporatist fantasy world do long term excessive profits margins persist.
Only in anti-corporatist fantasy world do long term excessive profits margins persist.
66
I don't believe these machines are replacing anyone: QFC on 15th still has four employees standing around at all times...talking about grocery store shifts.
As for me: I already have a shitty job, I don't want another. Catch me waiting in line with the check-writing grannies. F those machines.
As for me: I already have a shitty job, I don't want another. Catch me waiting in line with the check-writing grannies. F those machines.
67
There ya go, Seattle.
Always in the forefront of things.
It's not like I've been using these machines for years here in Kent at Fred Meyer and Top Food.
And yeah, they still have check out people...these are for the 12 items or less crowd. But since most people are techno-peasants, it usually takes us about 10 minutes to run a loaf of bread and some vegetables through.
John Henry need not worry...
Always in the forefront of things.
It's not like I've been using these machines for years here in Kent at Fred Meyer and Top Food.
And yeah, they still have check out people...these are for the 12 items or less crowd. But since most people are techno-peasants, it usually takes us about 10 minutes to run a loaf of bread and some vegetables through.
John Henry need not worry...
68
The QFC ones seem to be extra difficult, versus Fred Meyers or others. It seems like they just upgraded the operating system, but I still have to fetch an attendant about 50% of the times I use them.
The scale freaks out. The bag stand decides weights don't match up. A stray screen touch based on a too-slow or too-fast screen refresh throws a monkeywrench into things... I know these are some sort of security protocol but they are frustrating enough to make me use human cashiers whenever possible. And I don't even like people.
I'll be excited to use them once they get the bugs worked out, but I don't think QFC's machines are there yet.
The scale freaks out. The bag stand decides weights don't match up. A stray screen touch based on a too-slow or too-fast screen refresh throws a monkeywrench into things... I know these are some sort of security protocol but they are frustrating enough to make me use human cashiers whenever possible. And I don't even like people.
I'll be excited to use them once they get the bugs worked out, but I don't think QFC's machines are there yet.
70
@69, I'd guess offhand that 98% of the commenters and writers on Slog could be replaced by a few lines of software coding or else done away with instantly, with no impact to their employer. Do any of us perform any valued service for humanity? Considering the amount of time many posters apparently spend on this site, never mind others, all day and night, I'm guessing no.
71
I don't know about 98%, but I'm sure you could write software that would be an improvement on Will in Seattle's posts.
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