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News & ArtsWednesday, July 22, 2009
Homo Surrender, Douchebags!
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 8:42 AM
Someday you're gonna realize that giving us everything we want is the only way to make this issue—marriage equality—go away. Seriously. Giving us what we want won't stop gay marriage (duh), but it's the only way to stop gay marriage from getting so much airtime and press. Oh, you fuckers can win one at the ballot box and slow the progress toward justice and equality for all families. But we're going to keep pressing for our rights regardless. We're not going anywhere and we're never going to give up. We're going to go on fighting you and fighting for our rights and we're going to wear you fuckers down and you're going to lose and we're going to win.
The only question is just how much of your time and money you're going to waste on your losing effort to stop us from achieving our full equality.
And our equality isn't going to deprive you of anything. The coming of legal same-sex marriage will not result in "traditional" marriage—opposite marriage—perishing from the face of the earth. That's seriously not our goal—heck, most of us are products of "opposite marriage." Once we've achieved full marriage equality you can go right on having your "traditional" marriages while we enjoy our "non-traditional" marriages. You can have your opposite genitalia, we can have our matched sets. You can have your vulgar church weddings, we can have our dignified civil ceremonies (and some of us will have church weddings too, of course, but only in churches that support marriage equality). And you can go right on teaching your children that gay marriage is wrong and that gay people are sinful, while we teach our children—most of whom will be straight when they grow up—that love and marriage, gay or straight, are beautiful things and that it's too bad some hateful, clueless bigots out there can't see that. And we're going to live our lives openly and without shame to give hope to your gay children.
And we're going to keep suing and marching and organizing and electing homos and demanding our rights until we've got 'em. Prop 8 didn't end or settle anything. It ain't over until we say it's over. And we won't say it's over until we've won.
Have a nice day.
1
You know Dan, there are a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market that are just as tasty as the real thing. Deep breath, man.
3
Very nicely put (with the exception of the typo in the 3rd paragraph that closed-minded trolls will probably jump all over while completely ignoring or missing your excellent point).
It is very true that when a group is attacked members of that group tend to band together and fight, and fight publicly and vocally. When the attacks subside, so does the "visibility" of the group's concerns and issues - and this usually comes about because the group has won acceptance, inclusion, and rights within the society in which they live.
This has happened with the Jewish community, and with other groups as well. Once the foes stop blocking rights, members of the group tend to assimilate into the general population with the majority of said population not really bothering to give those group members a second thought - thus accepting them as members of the community.
It is very true that when a group is attacked members of that group tend to band together and fight, and fight publicly and vocally. When the attacks subside, so does the "visibility" of the group's concerns and issues - and this usually comes about because the group has won acceptance, inclusion, and rights within the society in which they live.
This has happened with the Jewish community, and with other groups as well. Once the foes stop blocking rights, members of the group tend to assimilate into the general population with the majority of said population not really bothering to give those group members a second thought - thus accepting them as members of the community.
6
you know you might have a problem when even people who totally agree with you find you extremely annoying. you're like the critical mass of gay sex.
7
Go gays! I am so excited to be able to see full marriage equality achieved. I'm with you all the way, let's all make it happen.
8
Good Lord, young man! You sound just like me 38 years ago. I'm so glad that you young whippersnappers are so energetic. Yes, we shall overcome.
10
goddammit slog commenters, I was really pumped after reading this, and then I saw all yo' sass in the comments :(
12
Great post Dan!
But "vulgar church weddings"? I didn't get married in a church (cus I find them vulgar) but don't go all Bill Maher on the churchies. Some of them are on your side man, and some of them are almost there but calling their tradition vulgar isn't going to pull them over.
Just a thought, I otherwise really dig this slog!
But "vulgar church weddings"? I didn't get married in a church (cus I find them vulgar) but don't go all Bill Maher on the churchies. Some of them are on your side man, and some of them are almost there but calling their tradition vulgar isn't going to pull them over.
Just a thought, I otherwise really dig this slog!
14
@12, who said, "calling their tradition vulgar isn't going to pull them over."
Nothing's gonna pull them over. I don't think Dan was trying to win them over but rather just to show them how pointless their efforts are. They can waste their time and energy and money trying to stop gay marriage, or they can work on more useful things. Their choice.
Nothing's gonna pull them over. I don't think Dan was trying to win them over but rather just to show them how pointless their efforts are. They can waste their time and energy and money trying to stop gay marriage, or they can work on more useful things. Their choice.
15
I also do not think they are going to get away scot free without damage to themselves. When they are exposed as haters for Jesus, sane people will stop following them. And that while other people in other countries have more freedom, much more, because they don't let religion dictate some nonsense to their courts as if it were a de facto fourth body of government. Tell people to stop giving money to these liars and hypocrites. If there's one thing they worship, it's money. Take away the money that fuels them and they slink their way back under their rock.
17
@6 said, "you're like the critical mass of gay sex."
@Dan, I think you should use this as a tagline for your column or a book.
To @6 -- capitalization is important.
@Dan, I think you should use this as a tagline for your column or a book.
To @6 -- capitalization is important.
19
@15 Your points are excellent.
"do not think they are going to get away scot free without damage"
"If there's one thing they worship, it's money. Take away the money that fuels them"
Some people are personally going on the record as anti-gay bigots by signing petitions and years from now, they will have to answer for it. Either socially, politically or maybe even financially as religion will no longer be a socially acceptable cover for homophobia and their failed attempt to try and break up gay families and their children.
"do not think they are going to get away scot free without damage"
"If there's one thing they worship, it's money. Take away the money that fuels them"
Some people are personally going on the record as anti-gay bigots by signing petitions and years from now, they will have to answer for it. Either socially, politically or maybe even financially as religion will no longer be a socially acceptable cover for homophobia and their failed attempt to try and break up gay families and their children.
20
How about if you harangue about health care this week and show you care about something that isn't all about you and your individual needs?
21
I have come to believe that opponents of marriage equality--and I'm talking about the folks who run the organizations for the most part--really and truly don't give a lick about gays getting married. After all, why should they?
Rather, they correctly gauge that there are a sufficient number of people out there who are uncomfortable with issues of sexuality or feeling insecure about their own marriage vows who, given the opportunity for some kind of public affirmation of their shakey beliefs, will reach for their checkbooks.
We are their cash cow. It's all about raising money. And given the fact that they're paying the mortgages on their vacation homes in Del Ray Beach or wherever by preying on the fears of hardworking lower-income families who do their best to make it to church on Sunday in an effort to keep their lives from completely falling apart makes them absolute unmitigated shetbegs in my book.
They know they're on the losing side of history. It's just rabble rousing to boost donations.
There truly is a place in hell reserved for them.
Rather, they correctly gauge that there are a sufficient number of people out there who are uncomfortable with issues of sexuality or feeling insecure about their own marriage vows who, given the opportunity for some kind of public affirmation of their shakey beliefs, will reach for their checkbooks.
We are their cash cow. It's all about raising money. And given the fact that they're paying the mortgages on their vacation homes in Del Ray Beach or wherever by preying on the fears of hardworking lower-income families who do their best to make it to church on Sunday in an effort to keep their lives from completely falling apart makes them absolute unmitigated shetbegs in my book.
They know they're on the losing side of history. It's just rabble rousing to boost donations.
There truly is a place in hell reserved for them.
22
I agree with Dragonslayer. I don't know what's up with you this morning. :P
I don't disagree with anything, I just don't know what's got you on the soap box.
Btw, I just finished reading "The Commitment" and I loved it. :)
I don't disagree with anything, I just don't know what's got you on the soap box.
Btw, I just finished reading "The Commitment" and I loved it. :)
23
HELL YEAH! I like when Dan gets angry.
(psst. the 3rd 'our' in the 3rd paragraph should be 'are'.)
(psst. the 3rd 'our' in the 3rd paragraph should be 'are'.)
24
While I commend the sentiments, like a lot of other posters, I'm left wondering what exactly inspired it. Seriously, you could say this every single day. If something specific inspired it, though, please share with the group.
26
"And we're going to live our lives openly and without shame to give hope to your gay children."
Translation, We (gay marriage advocates) are going to influence, and teach your kids our values not you.
"And we're going to keep suing and marching and organizing and electing homos "
Translation, We are going to radicalize your school boards, make the teaching of homosexuality a mandatory school subject and persecute through the judicial system those who oppose us and those adherents to faith.
I value too much my family to surrender it to the type of ideology you promote Mr Savage. I will not give up on my country and the moral values that sustain it because some opt to call those like me names. I know I'm fighting the good fight, not out of hatred for no one but out of love for my family my community and my country. People like me are on the side of nature, morality and winning side history. We will not surrender it to you.
Translation, We (gay marriage advocates) are going to influence, and teach your kids our values not you.
"And we're going to keep suing and marching and organizing and electing homos "
Translation, We are going to radicalize your school boards, make the teaching of homosexuality a mandatory school subject and persecute through the judicial system those who oppose us and those adherents to faith.
I value too much my family to surrender it to the type of ideology you promote Mr Savage. I will not give up on my country and the moral values that sustain it because some opt to call those like me names. I know I'm fighting the good fight, not out of hatred for no one but out of love for my family my community and my country. People like me are on the side of nature, morality and winning side history. We will not surrender it to you.
27
@Loveschild
"on the side of nature"
You don't know much about nature, huh?
http://www.livescience.com/animals/09061…
"on the side of nature"
You don't know much about nature, huh?
http://www.livescience.com/animals/09061…
29
Loveschild.
What gay man broke your heart and turned you into such a bitter, ignorant, bigoted shrew?
Was it the discovery of the gay porn stash in your husbands drawer? The hot football QB in highschool who chose to take a boy to prom and not you? The fact that you will never have Ricky Martin?
Witness to us Loveschild! We're here to help!
What gay man broke your heart and turned you into such a bitter, ignorant, bigoted shrew?
Was it the discovery of the gay porn stash in your husbands drawer? The hot football QB in highschool who chose to take a boy to prom and not you? The fact that you will never have Ricky Martin?
Witness to us Loveschild! We're here to help!
30
@26 / Loveschild:
Reading comprehension not quite up to speed yet today? First quote you offered from Dan -- you kinda, well, totally missed the point:
Dan: And we're going to live our lives openly and without shame to give hope to your gay children.
Loveschild: Translation, We (gay marriage advocates) are going to influence, and teach your kids our values not you.
TJC: Translation: Being out is easily the most important thing GLBT people can do. I [Loveschild] see your mere outness as usurping my [Loveschild's] ability to influence my [Loveschild's] children. I despise your ability and desire to life your lives with freedom and dignity because I know that upcoming generations have fewer issues with gay people because they know them as people, not stereotypes. I pine for the old days when homosexuality was considered shameful, hushed up, and forced into the closet.
TJC: Commentary: Well, kiddo, those days are gone in the USA, and they ain't comin' back, and full equality is on its way. It's taking longer than we'd like, and you occasionally succeed in delaying that train, but it will arrive.
Reading comprehension not quite up to speed yet today? First quote you offered from Dan -- you kinda, well, totally missed the point:
Dan: And we're going to live our lives openly and without shame to give hope to your gay children.
Loveschild: Translation, We (gay marriage advocates) are going to influence, and teach your kids our values not you.
TJC: Translation: Being out is easily the most important thing GLBT people can do. I [Loveschild] see your mere outness as usurping my [Loveschild's] ability to influence my [Loveschild's] children. I despise your ability and desire to life your lives with freedom and dignity because I know that upcoming generations have fewer issues with gay people because they know them as people, not stereotypes. I pine for the old days when homosexuality was considered shameful, hushed up, and forced into the closet.
TJC: Commentary: Well, kiddo, those days are gone in the USA, and they ain't comin' back, and full equality is on its way. It's taking longer than we'd like, and you occasionally succeed in delaying that train, but it will arrive.
31
Loveschild, everyday public opinion shifts away from your hate and towards tolerance and equality. We will never give up, and we will never disappear. We're done hiding and pretending to make vile people like you feel better. Bitter folks like you may slow us down, but we won't stop...EVER. Sure we'll lose an occasional battle, but we'll keep going back again, and again, and again, and again, as long as it takes until we win. Do you feel a bit of panic in the pit of your stomach. Get used to it.
32
Oh, and Loveschild...
And God said, Let the earth bring forth living creatures each according to his kind…
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good… Genesis 1:24-31
Nature VS Choice Part I
Nature VS Choice Part II
And God said, Let the earth bring forth living creatures each according to his kind…
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good… Genesis 1:24-31
Nature VS Choice Part I
Nature VS Choice Part II
33
Loveschild- another fun link for you...
“Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor”… So sayeth the ninth commandment Exodus (20:16)…
The Christian Wrong
“Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor”… So sayeth the ninth commandment Exodus (20:16)…
The Christian Wrong
34
Loveschild, are you SURE you're not an elaborate joke on Slog? There's no way this can be real. Nobody can be such a perfect moron. Your mix of hatred, stupidity, willful ignorance, and hypocrisy is truly a masterpiece. That's really the only way to describe your shrill stupidity: absolutely perfect. You're the perfect bigot.
37
And remember, Surrender just means going over to the winning side. It's nice over here. We have cookies.
38
Ironically, the marriage opponents are going to destroy marriage. I, for one, will not let them.
Since they claim they're not against gay people, what we end up with are Anything-But-Marriage compromises. Things that aren't marriage and offer some (but not all) of the rights and responsibilities of marriage.
I've had a couple straight friends say that they wish they could get a California Registered Domestic Partnership. (Not working after four years? Send a registered letter to the Secretary of State, move out, and you're done.) Sure, there are downsides too (they don't think about those).
I always have to explain to them that people under 65 can only get a RDP with a same-sex partner. "That's discrimination!" Well, yes, of course it is.
There's no good argument for denying them RDP (though none of them have sued for it yet). It just adds to the options a couple has. They don't have to get married.
Don't like the idea of same-sex couples marrying? You might be able to stop it (in the short run), but the collateral damage is opposite-sex couples who find they have other options. The unmarried same-sex couple down the street is already setting an example.
Conservatives: this is your chance to preserve marriage! Insist that same-sex couples not just live together. Tell them they need to get married.
Since they claim they're not against gay people, what we end up with are Anything-But-Marriage compromises. Things that aren't marriage and offer some (but not all) of the rights and responsibilities of marriage.
I've had a couple straight friends say that they wish they could get a California Registered Domestic Partnership. (Not working after four years? Send a registered letter to the Secretary of State, move out, and you're done.) Sure, there are downsides too (they don't think about those).
I always have to explain to them that people under 65 can only get a RDP with a same-sex partner. "That's discrimination!" Well, yes, of course it is.
There's no good argument for denying them RDP (though none of them have sued for it yet). It just adds to the options a couple has. They don't have to get married.
Don't like the idea of same-sex couples marrying? You might be able to stop it (in the short run), but the collateral damage is opposite-sex couples who find they have other options. The unmarried same-sex couple down the street is already setting an example.
Conservatives: this is your chance to preserve marriage! Insist that same-sex couples not just live together. Tell them they need to get married.
39
Translation, We are going to radicalize your school boards, make the teaching of homosexuality a mandatory school subject and persecute through the judicial system those who oppose us and those adherents to faith.
Appreciate the suggestions. I vote that we add those to the official "Gay Agenda". It's time the bigots and haters got to feel a little bit of what we go through.
Appreciate the suggestions. I vote that we add those to the official "Gay Agenda". It's time the bigots and haters got to feel a little bit of what we go through.
41
Still no day in and day out continual protests at the courthouses so I'm guessing it's just not that important to you guys.
Long on talk. Short on action.
Ooh, look, a shiny pebble!
Long on talk. Short on action.
Ooh, look, a shiny pebble!
42
Like this vulgar church wedding?? LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-94JhLEi…
Love you, Dan - you have my wholehearted, hetero, church-going, child-raising support and I teach my kids how to be open-minded and loving, rather than bigoted and full hate. Time is on your side, although you shouldn't have to wait. Eventually you will win - and a victory for love and equality is a victory for EVERYONE, not just gays.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-94JhLEi…
Love you, Dan - you have my wholehearted, hetero, church-going, child-raising support and I teach my kids how to be open-minded and loving, rather than bigoted and full hate. Time is on your side, although you shouldn't have to wait. Eventually you will win - and a victory for love and equality is a victory for EVERYONE, not just gays.
43
Loveschild -
"Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh."
- Abraham Lincoln
"Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh."
- Abraham Lincoln
44
I fail to see how marriage equality will damage or destroy anything. I think couples seeking to affirm lifelong loving commitments exemplifies marriage at its best. This doesn't hurt any of us, it strengthens marriage, because it sends the message that commitments for life provide one of life's most humanizing relationships.
Good post, Dan.
45
30 I do not "despise" anyone. I have no hatred in my heart for homosexuals, they're children of God just like me. That however does not mean I believe that homosexuality is something that needs to be publicized and taught to children.
"give hope to your gay children."
He made very clear what his intention is, its not only to live his life but also to indoctrinate that of children. Putting aside his erroneous assumption that there is such a thing as "gay kids", I as a parent do not need nor want to see Dan Savage on tv talking about homosexuality and I do not want his friends teaching in schools that two princes marrying each other is fine and that kids should follow example once they grow up if they wish to. No thank you Savage, you can keep that to yourself.
You're gay, fine, do what you wish with your same sex partner(s) but keep it out from other peoples lives, we do not need to see it thank you very much. And we most certainly do not need our kids to be witnessing or being taught by you that what you do is something they should aspire to. I as a parent have an obligation in a law abiding way and through the use of all the legal venues afforded to me and to the majority of americans like me to oppose such indoctrinations.
"give hope to your gay children."
He made very clear what his intention is, its not only to live his life but also to indoctrinate that of children. Putting aside his erroneous assumption that there is such a thing as "gay kids", I as a parent do not need nor want to see Dan Savage on tv talking about homosexuality and I do not want his friends teaching in schools that two princes marrying each other is fine and that kids should follow example once they grow up if they wish to. No thank you Savage, you can keep that to yourself.
You're gay, fine, do what you wish with your same sex partner(s) but keep it out from other peoples lives, we do not need to see it thank you very much. And we most certainly do not need our kids to be witnessing or being taught by you that what you do is something they should aspire to. I as a parent have an obligation in a law abiding way and through the use of all the legal venues afforded to me and to the majority of americans like me to oppose such indoctrinations.
47
"Jesus told a story about two brothers. You can read his telling of the story in Luke 15:11-32. The older brother (LOVESCHILD) was obedient, hardworking, and respectful to his father. The younger brother (DAN SAVAGE) was less obedient, a lot less hardworking, and downright disrespectful to his father. Okay, he demanded his inheritance and then went to Vegas and blew the money on loose living. He was an out-and-out sinner. We know he lived with pigs. There’s an allegation about harlots. And when the money was gone and he was desperate, he came home.
Now you would expect the father to give him the Big Lecture. How this son had failed. How he had disgraced the family. The many violations of Leviticus. How the disgraceful son should look up to his older brother – the good one, the obedient one – as an example of proper behavior.
But none of that happened.
The way Jesus told it, the father ran down the road to embrace his son, welcomed him back, invited the neighbors over, had the fattened calf slaughtered for the party, and sent for musicians to help with the celebration. He loved his son! The father’s love for his sons had nothing to do with obedience to rules; it was simply love.
Meanwhile, the older brother – who never left, who never once violated a law from his father – just could not believe that his father threw a party for the younger son. “What’s this I hear? Music? Dancing? For that sinner?” He was aghast that the father would welcome such a sinner. And he stayed out in the fields, refusing to welcome his brother.
When the story ends, the older brother is out there alone, refusing to join the party, unreconciled to his brother, unreconciled to his father."
This guest blog is from a Mudflats reader who is a retired pastor with a doctor of ministry (D. Min) degree. He is a long time Anchorage area resident who wanted to share his thoughts.
Italics are changed by me.
More...
Now you would expect the father to give him the Big Lecture. How this son had failed. How he had disgraced the family. The many violations of Leviticus. How the disgraceful son should look up to his older brother – the good one, the obedient one – as an example of proper behavior.
But none of that happened.
The way Jesus told it, the father ran down the road to embrace his son, welcomed him back, invited the neighbors over, had the fattened calf slaughtered for the party, and sent for musicians to help with the celebration. He loved his son! The father’s love for his sons had nothing to do with obedience to rules; it was simply love.
Meanwhile, the older brother – who never left, who never once violated a law from his father – just could not believe that his father threw a party for the younger son. “What’s this I hear? Music? Dancing? For that sinner?” He was aghast that the father would welcome such a sinner. And he stayed out in the fields, refusing to welcome his brother.
When the story ends, the older brother is out there alone, refusing to join the party, unreconciled to his brother, unreconciled to his father."
This guest blog is from a Mudflats reader who is a retired pastor with a doctor of ministry (D. Min) degree. He is a long time Anchorage area resident who wanted to share his thoughts.
Italics are changed by me.
48
And, alas, they will continue trying to kill us in the streets, pendulum swing in our direction notwithstanding...
49
Our Lady Of Guadalupe, Here's an important link that all catholics are called to observe...
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congre…
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congre…
50
Yay, Dan! Made of Win.
Loveschild--being an example of a happy healthy queer isn't about indoctrinating anyone. It's about freeing a gay child from the "christian" obligation of hating themself. If someone is truly gay, they're gay at 5 as well as 50. I certainly was.
Besides, your side certainly isn't quiet about their opinions regarding homosexuality... why should ours be?
Loveschild--being an example of a happy healthy queer isn't about indoctrinating anyone. It's about freeing a gay child from the "christian" obligation of hating themself. If someone is truly gay, they're gay at 5 as well as 50. I certainly was.
Besides, your side certainly isn't quiet about their opinions regarding homosexuality... why should ours be?
51
You do not love, for perfect love casts out all fear. There is no "indoctrination", that belief is your fears manifesting themselves. You weren't "indoctrinated" into your heterosexuality, it's who you are. Your fear will run its course, you'll mature and come to feel shame for allowing it to control you, LC. Until then, you will be viewed with pity.
52
Loveschild said:
You're gay, fine, do what you wish with your same sex partner(s) but keep it out from other peoples lives, we do not need to see it thank you very much.
Screw that! Just because you believe something that you read in an old book, you don't have the right demand that everyone else hide from your petty little eyes.
Whenever I hear that "keep it behind closed doors" BS my reaction is sure, just as soon as you stop flaunting your freaking heterosexuality in public. I'm sick and tired of seeing your kind walking down the street holding hands, kissing in public, frolicking on the dance floor and otherwise polluting my eyes with your "in your face" behavior. Tell you what, you clean up YOUR act so that I don't have to admit that I share the world with heterosexuals, and then you can start complaining that you have to share the world with us. In the meantime STFU!
You're gay, fine, do what you wish with your same sex partner(s) but keep it out from other peoples lives, we do not need to see it thank you very much.
Screw that! Just because you believe something that you read in an old book, you don't have the right demand that everyone else hide from your petty little eyes.
Whenever I hear that "keep it behind closed doors" BS my reaction is sure, just as soon as you stop flaunting your freaking heterosexuality in public. I'm sick and tired of seeing your kind walking down the street holding hands, kissing in public, frolicking on the dance floor and otherwise polluting my eyes with your "in your face" behavior. Tell you what, you clean up YOUR act so that I don't have to admit that I share the world with heterosexuals, and then you can start complaining that you have to share the world with us. In the meantime STFU!
53
50 How did you at 5 knew you were gay? How? Five year olds are not physically nor mentally developed enough to feel such things.
Leave kids out of this, please.
Leave kids out of this, please.
54
@53 -- Children have sexuality.
Oh yes they do. Granted their concept of sex is not an adult one, but they have sexuality. Go look it up and come back to play some more.
I also think you are really not a true person because your answers are just too predictable. What I can't quite get ahold of is why anyone would bother playing such a dim character.
But then I don't really understand vandalism either.
Oh yes they do. Granted their concept of sex is not an adult one, but they have sexuality. Go look it up and come back to play some more.
I also think you are really not a true person because your answers are just too predictable. What I can't quite get ahold of is why anyone would bother playing such a dim character.
But then I don't really understand vandalism either.
55
Hmmmm. Maybe it was when I begged my mom for the magic automatic knitting toy? Or when I was trading stickers with the other girls on the playground instead of playing war? Man, I'll never forget my Easy-Bake even. Cake from a lightbulb!
Sorry, Loveschild. Everyone was a kid once--so everyone get's to weigh in.
Sorry, Loveschild. Everyone was a kid once--so everyone get's to weigh in.
56
Loveschild, as much as this may shock you, gay people were not sent down here by the pod people from their spaceship to take over the earth. Rather, we are human beings, part of the human species, a species in which every single individual is 50% male and 50% female. Is it that shocking to you that some of us are more of a mixture (and if you really want to blow your mind, google "intersex" to learn about humans who have no easily definable gender)?
As for gay kids, well, I did not know that I was gay when I was 5, but my parents sure did (and that was in 1972), which is why they spent the next decade trying to "fix" me. I didn't understand until I was 13 that I was gay, and the realization was horrifying. Imagine waking up one morning and realizing that you are the pervert, the monster, the faggot you've been warned against by parents and teachers and priests (yep, I'm Catholic).
I was in my 30s before I realized that I could be a fully functional adult as a gay man, and you bet your rear end I want gay kids going through schools today to know that hope is out there - not hope to be straight, but hope to be whole and healthy.
You want to teach your kids differently? Go ahead. But those kids will be entering a world where we won't be silent anymore, where we do live our lives openly and honestly. What happens when your kid comes home with a best friend who has two moms? Or starts their career working for a gay boss? How do you want them to represent your teachings and your morality?
As for gay kids, well, I did not know that I was gay when I was 5, but my parents sure did (and that was in 1972), which is why they spent the next decade trying to "fix" me. I didn't understand until I was 13 that I was gay, and the realization was horrifying. Imagine waking up one morning and realizing that you are the pervert, the monster, the faggot you've been warned against by parents and teachers and priests (yep, I'm Catholic).
I was in my 30s before I realized that I could be a fully functional adult as a gay man, and you bet your rear end I want gay kids going through schools today to know that hope is out there - not hope to be straight, but hope to be whole and healthy.
You want to teach your kids differently? Go ahead. But those kids will be entering a world where we won't be silent anymore, where we do live our lives openly and honestly. What happens when your kid comes home with a best friend who has two moms? Or starts their career working for a gay boss? How do you want them to represent your teachings and your morality?
57
Now you know how thousands of children were raped at the hands of the Catholic Church. Blind obediance to myth and superstition is not conducive to thinking on your own. It becomes nearly impossible to use logic and reason in viewing the world. And it takes courage, a lot of courage to start seeing the world as it really exists. But when you do, it is like pulling back the drapes and letting the sun in for the first time. Glorious! Get your brain out of the fourth century "Loveschild" and join reality.
58
Loveschild, the major disconnect you seem to be having with most other sloggers is that you STILL think that gays choose to be gay. Are you really in such denial, or this just argument for argument's sake?
You said, "... I do not want his friends teaching in schools that two princes marrying each other is fine and that kids should follow example once they grow up if they wish to."
No kid that isn't already gay will "wish to" once he or she grows up, regardless of what they're taught.
One more time: gay kids are born gay, straight kids are born straight, and everyone else in between works like that as well. If you have straight kids, no secret gay conversion tickle that scary Dan Savage, Anderson Cooper or Rosie O'Donnell have up their sleeves will work on them.
One last thing: Have a little respect, if it's possible. You aren't in any position whatsoever to deny An AAGM @ 50's experience as a child.
You said, "... I do not want his friends teaching in schools that two princes marrying each other is fine and that kids should follow example once they grow up if they wish to."
No kid that isn't already gay will "wish to" once he or she grows up, regardless of what they're taught.
One more time: gay kids are born gay, straight kids are born straight, and everyone else in between works like that as well. If you have straight kids, no secret gay conversion tickle that scary Dan Savage, Anderson Cooper or Rosie O'Donnell have up their sleeves will work on them.
One last thing: Have a little respect, if it's possible. You aren't in any position whatsoever to deny An AAGM @ 50's experience as a child.
59
@45 Your reading comprehension is indeed weak today.
I never wrote that you despise anyone. Re-read my post (@30).
I wrote that you LC "despise []our ability and desire to life [sic] []our lives with freedom and dignity".
And it's true: you wrote, "You're gay, fine, do what you wish with your same sex partner(s) but keep it out from other peoples lives, we do not need to see it thank you very much. And we most certainly do not need our kids to be witnessing or being taught by you that what you do is something they should aspire to."
For some reason, you consistently have a hard time keeping "what we do" separate from "who we are" -- as if all you can picture when you hear the name "Dan Savage" is some sex act. Why do you think that is? When you hear the phrase, "Queen Elizabeth II", do you immediately think of her and Philip having sex? So why is it when you hear the phrase "gay person" does your mind immediately jump to sex?
At least, I'm assuming that's what you mean when you say, "being taught by you that what you do is something they should aspire to". Because frankly, that's just plain weird.
When someone asks me, "What do you do?" I don't assume they mean between the sheets. Perhaps I was assuming too much about you -- and you did not mean that either.
In which case, your statement just comes off as that of a crazy person: you don't want your kids to learn about computers and networking? Or writing and editing? Or automotive repair? Or farming?
Again, reading comprehension is important.
I never wrote that you despise anyone. Re-read my post (@30).
I wrote that you LC "despise []our ability and desire to life [sic] []our lives with freedom and dignity".
And it's true: you wrote, "You're gay, fine, do what you wish with your same sex partner(s) but keep it out from other peoples lives, we do not need to see it thank you very much. And we most certainly do not need our kids to be witnessing or being taught by you that what you do is something they should aspire to."
For some reason, you consistently have a hard time keeping "what we do" separate from "who we are" -- as if all you can picture when you hear the name "Dan Savage" is some sex act. Why do you think that is? When you hear the phrase, "Queen Elizabeth II", do you immediately think of her and Philip having sex? So why is it when you hear the phrase "gay person" does your mind immediately jump to sex?
At least, I'm assuming that's what you mean when you say, "being taught by you that what you do is something they should aspire to". Because frankly, that's just plain weird.
When someone asks me, "What do you do?" I don't assume they mean between the sheets. Perhaps I was assuming too much about you -- and you did not mean that either.
In which case, your statement just comes off as that of a crazy person: you don't want your kids to learn about computers and networking? Or writing and editing? Or automotive repair? Or farming?
Again, reading comprehension is important.
60
# 53 Loveschild: How did you know you were straight? Did someone have to indoctrinate you? Or did you just like the opposite sex ?
I didn't know I was bisexual when I was a kid: I didn't have the language for it. I just loved kissing boys and girls....... and I knew that, on some level I was different from the other kids. ANd now that I"m a grown up I have the capacity to say I'm differnt because I'm bisexual. But it would have been easier as a teen if I had seen ANY positive role models. And you are, in my opinion, trying to deny other kids positive role modes by saying "don't flaunt your lifestyle."
Your side will lose.
I didn't know I was bisexual when I was a kid: I didn't have the language for it. I just loved kissing boys and girls....... and I knew that, on some level I was different from the other kids. ANd now that I"m a grown up I have the capacity to say I'm differnt because I'm bisexual. But it would have been easier as a teen if I had seen ANY positive role models. And you are, in my opinion, trying to deny other kids positive role modes by saying "don't flaunt your lifestyle."
Your side will lose.
61
# 53 Loveschild: How did you know you were straight? Did someone have to indoctrinate you? Or did you just like the opposite sex ?
I didn't know I was bisexual when I was a kid: I didn't have the language for it. I just loved kissing boys and girls....... and I knew that, on some level I was different from the other kids. ANd now that I"m a grown up I have the capacity to say I'm differnt because I'm bisexual. But it would have been easier as a teen if I had seen ANY positive role models. And you are, in my opinion, trying to deny other kids positive role modes by saying "don't flaunt your lifestyle."
Your side will lose.
I didn't know I was bisexual when I was a kid: I didn't have the language for it. I just loved kissing boys and girls....... and I knew that, on some level I was different from the other kids. ANd now that I"m a grown up I have the capacity to say I'm differnt because I'm bisexual. But it would have been easier as a teen if I had seen ANY positive role models. And you are, in my opinion, trying to deny other kids positive role modes by saying "don't flaunt your lifestyle."
Your side will lose.
62
Dan,
I assume most if not all on this SLOG thread disdain Lovechild's posts. Fair enough. But, I gotta say she does have gumption for better or for worse. Think about all the responses we wouldn't have read otherwise. I'm glad SLOG allows for dissent. This makes it interesing.
I assume most if not all on this SLOG thread disdain Lovechild's posts. Fair enough. But, I gotta say she does have gumption for better or for worse. Think about all the responses we wouldn't have read otherwise. I'm glad SLOG allows for dissent. This makes it interesing.
63
And LC: Please read Cassell's Encyclopedia of Queer Myth, Symbol, and Spirit: Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender Lore. It is an A-Z reference source on the theme of same-sex desire, gender variance and the sacred. It book examines the often-suppressed spiritual dimension of homosexuality.
Being queer is a spiritual gift!
Being queer is a spiritual gift!
64
59 Quite the opposite.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_&_King
Seems to me that your side is the one trying to inject alternative sexual acts (to kids) in all of this. There have been people who have dealt with homosexual feelings in a discreet manner without having to let those around them know about it. That's not what DS and you are advocating for, you want to put it in front of peoples faces and seek their approval. Otherwise why should second grade teachers be reading and showing drawings to kids about two princes kissing each other? My comprehension and understanding is quite well, and I do not need to hear an order of surrender from DS to know what he and his counterparts are trying to do here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_&_King
Seems to me that your side is the one trying to inject alternative sexual acts (to kids) in all of this. There have been people who have dealt with homosexual feelings in a discreet manner without having to let those around them know about it. That's not what DS and you are advocating for, you want to put it in front of peoples faces and seek their approval. Otherwise why should second grade teachers be reading and showing drawings to kids about two princes kissing each other? My comprehension and understanding is quite well, and I do not need to hear an order of surrender from DS to know what he and his counterparts are trying to do here.
65
@64/LC:
So, you gonna answer the question?
For some reason, you consistently have a hard time keeping "what we do" separate from "who we are" -- as if all you can picture when you hear the name "Dan Savage" is some sex act. Why do you think that is? When you hear the phrase, "Queen Elizabeth II", do you immediately think of her and Philip having sex? So why is it when you hear the phrase "gay person" does your mind immediately jump to sex?
Why do you immediately assume "sex" when you hear "gay?"
So, you gonna answer the question?
For some reason, you consistently have a hard time keeping "what we do" separate from "who we are" -- as if all you can picture when you hear the name "Dan Savage" is some sex act. Why do you think that is? When you hear the phrase, "Queen Elizabeth II", do you immediately think of her and Philip having sex? So why is it when you hear the phrase "gay person" does your mind immediately jump to sex?
Why do you immediately assume "sex" when you hear "gay?"
67
65 I'm not assuming anything, you're the one making this about sex....
Gay marriage, Folsom street fair (and all others like it around the country), pride parades where every sort of phalluses and imitation of sexual acts are displayed. That's whats displayed, that's what thrown at peoples faces. That tjc is not an assumption, that's what you put out for all to see whether we like it or not.
Why do kids need to see pictures about two princes kissing each other?
Gay marriage, Folsom street fair (and all others like it around the country), pride parades where every sort of phalluses and imitation of sexual acts are displayed. That's whats displayed, that's what thrown at peoples faces. That tjc is not an assumption, that's what you put out for all to see whether we like it or not.
Why do kids need to see pictures about two princes kissing each other?
68
LC @ 64: You said "There have been people who have dealt with homosexual feelings in a discreet manner without having to let those around them know about it. That's not what DS and you are advocating for, you want to put it in front of peoples faces and seek their approval."
Don't you SEE that dealing with homosexual feelings in a discreet manner involves staying in a shame filled closet? BEing gay is NORMAL - it isn't a shameful thing. And gays ARE NOT going away: straight people will keep haveing queer children. And I hope that those children have positive role models so they don't have to struggle to be themselves. Do you REALLY want to discriminate against an innate state?
Don't you SEE that dealing with homosexual feelings in a discreet manner involves staying in a shame filled closet? BEing gay is NORMAL - it isn't a shameful thing. And gays ARE NOT going away: straight people will keep haveing queer children. And I hope that those children have positive role models so they don't have to struggle to be themselves. Do you REALLY want to discriminate against an innate state?
69
As Dan has pointed out many times, it's generally preachers busking for a buck that post Folsom Street Fair videos on YouTube for self-righteous perusal....
70
Lots of straight people go to Folsom. The kink community is, to a great degree, pretty thoroughly integrated on the orientation front. Generally super kinky straights and super kinky gays have more in common with each other than they do with gay or straight couples with kids.
There were straight people—loads of 'em—at IML this year, LC. It's a brave new world.
There were straight people—loads of 'em—at IML this year, LC. It's a brave new world.
71
"Why do kids need to see pictures about two princes kissing each other?"
Because some of those kids are going to be gay, LC. And it won't "hurt" straight kids to see those pictures—it won't make them gay—and seeing that picture let's gay kids know that they can find love and a commitment when they grow up, that they have a place in this world too.
Which is why you hate that picture: because people like you would prefer to see your gay kids miserable and closeted and isolated and suicidal, or "right with God."
Because some of those kids are going to be gay, LC. And it won't "hurt" straight kids to see those pictures—it won't make them gay—and seeing that picture let's gay kids know that they can find love and a commitment when they grow up, that they have a place in this world too.
Which is why you hate that picture: because people like you would prefer to see your gay kids miserable and closeted and isolated and suicidal, or "right with God."
72
So Loveschild, I suppose you would support removing any school curriculum that acknowledges the existence or implies any kind of social acceptability for Christianity as a normal and healthy lifestyle? I would really appreciate not having the Christian lifestyle displayed in my face or shown to children who may be damaged by such a vulgar display.
73
Apparently, Loveschild is unaware that heterosexuals attend the Folsom Street fair. She's also seems unaware that heterosexuals attend pride parades. Never witnessed a bride-to-be decorated with a necklace of plastic penises, and sipping her drink through a giant pink penis straw at her bachelorette party. She's likely unaware of air sex competitions here in the US and Japan were people, gay and straight, imitate sex acts. Nor, has she come around a bend while hiking and witnessed a straight couple going at it or a young clothed het couple grinding on each other in a public park.
Loveschild, wants the world tailored to her whims, and the imaginary plant she lives on. She wants LGBTQ member of society to be second class citizens, to keep their proclivities out of her sight. Meanwhile, straights can keep on simulating sex acts all over the dance floors in America, while angelic brides-to-be suck on their phallic straws. After all, its heterosexuals flaunting their sexuality and there is nothing lewd about that at all.
Loveschild, wants the world tailored to her whims, and the imaginary plant she lives on. She wants LGBTQ member of society to be second class citizens, to keep their proclivities out of her sight. Meanwhile, straights can keep on simulating sex acts all over the dance floors in America, while angelic brides-to-be suck on their phallic straws. After all, its heterosexuals flaunting their sexuality and there is nothing lewd about that at all.
74
70 Why of course International Mr. Leather, how could I not see the many straight men dying to try some ass pants on for the pleasure of other men. It's obvious that's so the new trend.
I'm not denying the existence of some pretty messed up straight people who would venture into such "fairs" out of curiosity but these "events" are pretty much geared to a very specif group and it has very little to do with those who seek females - male displays of eroticism. Everyone who ventures into one knows what type of freak show they will vastly find there.
I'm not denying the existence of some pretty messed up straight people who would venture into such "fairs" out of curiosity but these "events" are pretty much geared to a very specif group and it has very little to do with those who seek females - male displays of eroticism. Everyone who ventures into one knows what type of freak show they will vastly find there.
75
71.
Correct. Additionally, some of those kids have gay parents, and they need to see their families represented in literature and culture too.
Because some of those kids are going to be gay,
Correct. Additionally, some of those kids have gay parents, and they need to see their families represented in literature and culture too.
76
72 Excuse you, where in the public school system are second grade teachers reading the Bible to children? I understand the larger purpose behind all this, there's more to it than homosexuals being able to engage in the acts they seek to engage to. They're already able to do that.
71 It's parents the ones who need to decide whats going to hurt or be beneficial for their kids, not gay advocates, not rogue political lobby groups nor any others like them. I'm the one who's teaching my kids what love and commitment is about and what will led them to a healthy and happy life once they become adults. Not school teachers and most certainly not a book about two homosexual kings.
71 It's parents the ones who need to decide whats going to hurt or be beneficial for their kids, not gay advocates, not rogue political lobby groups nor any others like them. I'm the one who's teaching my kids what love and commitment is about and what will led them to a healthy and happy life once they become adults. Not school teachers and most certainly not a book about two homosexual kings.
77
72 Excuse you, where in the public school system are second grade teachers reading the Bible to children? I understand the larger purpose behind all this, there's more to it than homosexuals being able to engage in the acts they seek to engage to. They're already able to do that.
71 It's parents the ones who need to decide whats going to hurt or be beneficial for their kids, not gay advocates, not rogue political lobby groups nor any others like them. I'm the one who's teaching my kids what love and commitment is about and what will led them to a healthy and happy life once they become adults. Not school teachers and most certainly not a book about two homosexual kings.
71 It's parents the ones who need to decide whats going to hurt or be beneficial for their kids, not gay advocates, not rogue political lobby groups nor any others like them. I'm the one who's teaching my kids what love and commitment is about and what will led them to a healthy and happy life once they become adults. Not school teachers and most certainly not a book about two homosexual kings.
78
@ #49
(shaking my head in disbelief)
LOL,
Seems strange that a church saturated in chronic sex scandals should dictate the moral behavior for the rest of the world...
Abuse Cost for Catholic Dioceses Tops $…
(shaking my head in disbelief)
LOL,
Seems strange that a church saturated in chronic sex scandals should dictate the moral behavior for the rest of the world...
Abuse Cost for Catholic Dioceses Tops $…
79
@77, the bible is but one book which depicts Christianity as an acceptable and healthy lifestyle. K-12 curriculum is full of books which teach children that christians exist and live a healthy lifestyle without promoting said religion. However, it is worth noting that the book of Job was part of my school curriculum in Washington State and I can cite many other examples of biblical references in K-12 curriculum.
Your view of the homosexual lifestyle is limited to images of leather conventions and closeted pastors' fantasies. Essentially modern day pickaninny. Let your schizophrenic rants commence.
Your view of the homosexual lifestyle is limited to images of leather conventions and closeted pastors' fantasies. Essentially modern day pickaninny. Let your schizophrenic rants commence.
80
LC Further to my post at # 68, do you really want to discriminate against people on the basis of an innate characteristic like "gayness?" If you do, what then prevents other bigots from discriminating against - oh, say skin colour?
And you have never answered this question on previous threads: what is wrong with life in Canada where gay marriage has been legal since 2005 (2003 in some jurisdictions?) Nothing - that is the answer.... Queer people marry and look after children and go to Pride parades and make cookies and visit their families and fly kites and work and pay taxes .....just like the straight folks. (And yes, straight folks go to Pride parades!) Your side will lose because its postion is manifestly unjust and inequitable and plain mean.
And you have never answered this question on previous threads: what is wrong with life in Canada where gay marriage has been legal since 2005 (2003 in some jurisdictions?) Nothing - that is the answer.... Queer people marry and look after children and go to Pride parades and make cookies and visit their families and fly kites and work and pay taxes .....just like the straight folks. (And yes, straight folks go to Pride parades!) Your side will lose because its postion is manifestly unjust and inequitable and plain mean.
81
I am bemused by the term "opposite marriage", and have started using it myself. Did Miss California coin the term, or was it already floating out in the aether? Does anyone know?
82
One of the things that I haven't understood about the conservative argument against gay marriage is that they're opposed to the gay lifestyle (in part) because of the "rampant" promiscuity.
So wouldn't gay marriage resolve that issue? If gays can marry, then the conservatives can chastise all the single gays and say "If ONLY you would get married and settle down!" Wouldn't that be a win-win? The gays have their rights, and the conservatives can still chastise them for something.
So wouldn't gay marriage resolve that issue? If gays can marry, then the conservatives can chastise all the single gays and say "If ONLY you would get married and settle down!" Wouldn't that be a win-win? The gays have their rights, and the conservatives can still chastise them for something.
83
Loathe as I typically am to address anything LC says, I can't ignore #53. I knew I was "straight" (though I would never have understood that term) when I was 4.
My mom was watching a soap opera, and they showed a man kissing a woman passionately. I had an automatic sexual response to it (my clitoris started throbbing). I was completely innocent, had never touched myself, had not had sex explained to me...but I remember telling my mom, "That makes my private parts tingle."
She was thrown for a loop, but to her credit she never tried to discount it or make me ashamed of it. My childhood continued to be filled with episodes like that, so I knew from a very young age that I was heterosexual.
And I come from a VERY conservative Christian background, so you can't say I don't intimately know all of the points you're making. I used to believe many of them myself. I still have many friends who hold the same views, though I am trying to win them over.
I still believe in God and the bible, I just believe that some of the stuff in there is relative to the culture of the time (for example, the slavery "support" was tied to its age).
I also confess that a lot of my early religious rigidity was because I knew myself to be a highly sexual creature, and that I needed a lot of help controlling myself. Once I got older and had better self-control, I was able to take a step back and re-evaluate my beliefs.
I suspect this is the case with a lot of extremely uptight religious folks...they cling onto their beliefs like life preservers, hoping it will keep them afloat in the midst of their more "damning" urges. (Not saying that's the case for LC, just an observation of people I know in person.)
My mom was watching a soap opera, and they showed a man kissing a woman passionately. I had an automatic sexual response to it (my clitoris started throbbing). I was completely innocent, had never touched myself, had not had sex explained to me...but I remember telling my mom, "That makes my private parts tingle."
She was thrown for a loop, but to her credit she never tried to discount it or make me ashamed of it. My childhood continued to be filled with episodes like that, so I knew from a very young age that I was heterosexual.
And I come from a VERY conservative Christian background, so you can't say I don't intimately know all of the points you're making. I used to believe many of them myself. I still have many friends who hold the same views, though I am trying to win them over.
I still believe in God and the bible, I just believe that some of the stuff in there is relative to the culture of the time (for example, the slavery "support" was tied to its age).
I also confess that a lot of my early religious rigidity was because I knew myself to be a highly sexual creature, and that I needed a lot of help controlling myself. Once I got older and had better self-control, I was able to take a step back and re-evaluate my beliefs.
I suspect this is the case with a lot of extremely uptight religious folks...they cling onto their beliefs like life preservers, hoping it will keep them afloat in the midst of their more "damning" urges. (Not saying that's the case for LC, just an observation of people I know in person.)
84
Really, if anything the nation should enact same sex marriage to pick up on the added economic boost of all those additional marriage licenses, certificates, and (sorry to admit, gays, but) divorce proceedings.
I mean, states have whored out their moral qualms towards gambling for casinos. Why not whore out their bigoted moral qualms about homosexuals? We've got a budget deficit at the Federal level and in just about every state. Let's try to cover some of it!
I mean, states have whored out their moral qualms towards gambling for casinos. Why not whore out their bigoted moral qualms about homosexuals? We've got a budget deficit at the Federal level and in just about every state. Let's try to cover some of it!
86
Oh, LC. The breeders at IML and Folsom are not there because they're "curious." They're there because they know. And straight people didn't catch kink from gay people like some sort of leathery flu.
Man, you're hilarious. I love you, LC.
Man, you're hilarious. I love you, LC.
87
26, 45, 49, 53, 64, 74, 76, 77 ... aka loveschild. question? what are you going to do if one or all of your children are gay?
Dan, great post!
Dan, great post!
89
LC, you might want to check out this web site,
www.godmademegay.com
I don't really like the name, but it's contents are worth the read, it was written by a Baptist Preacher. It is his response to one of his parishioners questions.
-You seem to have an issue with seeing two men kissing! I grew up seeing str8 people kissing! My thoughts do not wonder towards what they do in the bedroom, but yours seem to.
-Did you date boys growing up? Learning how to intermingle, the give and take, learning about yourself, sharing, the passion, trusting, broken heart, getting over him, moving on, and all that goes along with growing up? Well I didn't, and most LGBTQ didn't either, if they did, it's because they were trying to find someone (opposite sex) to "fix" them! Now that's a healthy life style, isn't it?
-I did not date thru puberty, I was extremely introvert! I was terrified of my self, and that someone would "find out"! I WAS THAT BAD PERSON! The one my parents warned me of! Have you told that to your children? If you have, think of the fear that you are instilling into them? A good healthy kid, frightened, because of your statements!
-Because we (LGBTQ) didn't have the (healthy) experience of dating growing up, we didn't learn about our selves! We have to learn on the fly! We don't have our Mom's at our bed side consoling us! Did you? They are trying to figure us out, what went wrong, was it their fault! We are trying to find ourselves, and dealing with all that you went thru, on our own! That's why a lot of US don't know how to have a healthy relationship! Granted, there are a few luck ones out there that had and have parents that were there for them, but for the majority of us, we did not!
-Do you follow that 10 commandments! Look at them REAL CLOSE! The bible says we all have our own free will! If so, then we CAN NOT BE COMMANDED! Moses ASKED God how do I know that I am on the right path? And God gave Moses these 10 items! They are not commandments, the are COVENANTS! Thank about that for a long moment!
-You may not want to see US on TV taking about homosexuality, we see and hear about heterosexuality every day! How about, lets not talk about either! Lets talk about life, living, love, peace, freedom, passions (not sex), joy, health, compassion, interaction, and the list can go on and on!
Please think about this! Look into your heart, your soul, within! The Bible says follow your own spirit! If you are repeating what another told you, then you are the sheep being led to
the slaughter! Please do not judge anyone with the words from what you heard, use the words from YOUR soul! May you be blessed by your Spirit, your Truth, your Love!
More...
www.godmademegay.com
I don't really like the name, but it's contents are worth the read, it was written by a Baptist Preacher. It is his response to one of his parishioners questions.
-You seem to have an issue with seeing two men kissing! I grew up seeing str8 people kissing! My thoughts do not wonder towards what they do in the bedroom, but yours seem to.
-Did you date boys growing up? Learning how to intermingle, the give and take, learning about yourself, sharing, the passion, trusting, broken heart, getting over him, moving on, and all that goes along with growing up? Well I didn't, and most LGBTQ didn't either, if they did, it's because they were trying to find someone (opposite sex) to "fix" them! Now that's a healthy life style, isn't it?
-I did not date thru puberty, I was extremely introvert! I was terrified of my self, and that someone would "find out"! I WAS THAT BAD PERSON! The one my parents warned me of! Have you told that to your children? If you have, think of the fear that you are instilling into them? A good healthy kid, frightened, because of your statements!
-Because we (LGBTQ) didn't have the (healthy) experience of dating growing up, we didn't learn about our selves! We have to learn on the fly! We don't have our Mom's at our bed side consoling us! Did you? They are trying to figure us out, what went wrong, was it their fault! We are trying to find ourselves, and dealing with all that you went thru, on our own! That's why a lot of US don't know how to have a healthy relationship! Granted, there are a few luck ones out there that had and have parents that were there for them, but for the majority of us, we did not!
-Do you follow that 10 commandments! Look at them REAL CLOSE! The bible says we all have our own free will! If so, then we CAN NOT BE COMMANDED! Moses ASKED God how do I know that I am on the right path? And God gave Moses these 10 items! They are not commandments, the are COVENANTS! Thank about that for a long moment!
-You may not want to see US on TV taking about homosexuality, we see and hear about heterosexuality every day! How about, lets not talk about either! Lets talk about life, living, love, peace, freedom, passions (not sex), joy, health, compassion, interaction, and the list can go on and on!
Please think about this! Look into your heart, your soul, within! The Bible says follow your own spirit! If you are repeating what another told you, then you are the sheep being led to
the slaughter! Please do not judge anyone with the words from what you heard, use the words from YOUR soul! May you be blessed by your Spirit, your Truth, your Love!
90
Excellent post, Dan!
Keep up the good work. Achieving societal change requires that level of intensity. Hope to see posts like that regularly.
Black (women, etc ) equality movement would've gone nowhere if the leaders always played nice and werent really pissed off. Reasoning and rationalizing has its place, but real fight is a war, not a sunday dinner. Gay people have to get angry and truly fight, even if it requires some sacrifice, showing public disobedience,even getting arrested.
Nedah didnt want to die, but fight for freedom has a price tag.
Andit's USA, not iranian radical theocracy; its easier here, a part of your battle is already won. But you got to keep pushing.
Fight is tough, but victory sweet. I grew up in the former Soviet Union, I know :) If you people wont do it, the burden of getting it done will be on your sons shoulders. Just lets have it over and done with now :)
Keep up the good work. Achieving societal change requires that level of intensity. Hope to see posts like that regularly.
Black (women, etc ) equality movement would've gone nowhere if the leaders always played nice and werent really pissed off. Reasoning and rationalizing has its place, but real fight is a war, not a sunday dinner. Gay people have to get angry and truly fight, even if it requires some sacrifice, showing public disobedience,even getting arrested.
Nedah didnt want to die, but fight for freedom has a price tag.
Andit's USA, not iranian radical theocracy; its easier here, a part of your battle is already won. But you got to keep pushing.
Fight is tough, but victory sweet. I grew up in the former Soviet Union, I know :) If you people wont do it, the burden of getting it done will be on your sons shoulders. Just lets have it over and done with now :)
91
87 Much to the disappointment of some here I have educated my kids with a very solid set of values. My boys conduct themselves like the young men they are (no automatic knitting toys, playing kitchen or with barbies, lol) they have had a very good male role model in their father and my girl in me. You see, I do believe that at the core of all of this is the dysfunctional environment some kids have unfortunately grown up in. When you have had a distorted image about gender roles be it due to bad examples given by your parents themselves or because of a lack of care on their part to guide you and teach you about your gender or because a child has lacked one of them (parent) and ended with only one part of the example that constitutes the natural pairings in humans. Then you end up with challenging feelings inside you that create confusion and cause you to behave in certain ways as a teen and as an adult (in some cases where the phase hasn't gone away with your teen years) that bring with them physical and mental health risks that can hinder your quality of life and shorten your lifespan on this earth.
Once that takes place and an individual has reached adulthood like any habit or addiction such behaviors are very difficult (though not impossible) to overcome because the individual sees any attempt to help as an attack against him/her personally. That's why I and many other like me are focused in protecting the children and oppose any attempt at indoctrination in our schools, media, government and other public venues. We realize that it is them whom homosexual advocates are after so that societal approval of their lifestyle becomes more mainstream and with it bring to our society all that their ideology entails.
Once that takes place and an individual has reached adulthood like any habit or addiction such behaviors are very difficult (though not impossible) to overcome because the individual sees any attempt to help as an attack against him/her personally. That's why I and many other like me are focused in protecting the children and oppose any attempt at indoctrination in our schools, media, government and other public venues. We realize that it is them whom homosexual advocates are after so that societal approval of their lifestyle becomes more mainstream and with it bring to our society all that their ideology entails.
92
LC,
what do these 2 paragraphs of pointless demagoguery have to do with the post 87?
Charley @ 87 asked you, I quote
""...question? what are you going to do if one or all of your children are gay?""
Can you honestly answer it or not?
And may i thank you for being you :)
You, paradoxically, are doing the most incredible job to promote the gay equality case by showing your hatred, bigotry and anger towards people who your consider lesser humans then you. Keep it up, just be yourself, you doing great!! You are walking ( writing, i shall say) advertisement for why opponents of gay rights are pursuing evil goals.
what do these 2 paragraphs of pointless demagoguery have to do with the post 87?
Charley @ 87 asked you, I quote
""...question? what are you going to do if one or all of your children are gay?""
Can you honestly answer it or not?
And may i thank you for being you :)
You, paradoxically, are doing the most incredible job to promote the gay equality case by showing your hatred, bigotry and anger towards people who your consider lesser humans then you. Keep it up, just be yourself, you doing great!! You are walking ( writing, i shall say) advertisement for why opponents of gay rights are pursuing evil goals.
93
LC @ 91 "I do believe that at the core of all of this is the dysfunctional environment some kids have unfortunately grown up in. When you have had a distorted image about gender roles be it due to bad examples given by your parents themselves or because of a lack of care on their part to guide you and teach you about your gender or because a child has lacked one of them (parent) and ended with only one part of the example that constitutes the natural pairings in humans."
You believe this ....but it isn't true. I bet you cannot find any valid peer reviewed studies that back up your belief.
And, for your information, I was raised by a stay at home mother and a father who worked outside the home - pretty standard gender roles. And I turned out bi ....and my brother was gay.
So WHAT are you gonna do when one of your kids tell you they are gay?
You believe this ....but it isn't true. I bet you cannot find any valid peer reviewed studies that back up your belief.
And, for your information, I was raised by a stay at home mother and a father who worked outside the home - pretty standard gender roles. And I turned out bi ....and my brother was gay.
So WHAT are you gonna do when one of your kids tell you they are gay?
94
I find it interesting that Dan in post #70 only mentioned it as IML, but LC in post #74 immediately knew it stood for International Mr. Leather.
Mommy is very curious!!
Mommy is very curious!!
95
#91 LC
How dare you belittle my parents that way. They are a loving couple (married 53 years and counting) Mom was a stay at home parent... she gave up a career in nursing to raise us.... Dad worked hard for a living and raised all six of us to be honest, caring, giving members of society. We are and have always been a close-knit loving family. Yet I and one of my two brother's is GAY.... were did they go wrong??
Homophobes are the result of bad parenting..... NOT gay people.
How dare you belittle my parents that way. They are a loving couple (married 53 years and counting) Mom was a stay at home parent... she gave up a career in nursing to raise us.... Dad worked hard for a living and raised all six of us to be honest, caring, giving members of society. We are and have always been a close-knit loving family. Yet I and one of my two brother's is GAY.... were did they go wrong??
Homophobes are the result of bad parenting..... NOT gay people.
96
Loveschild, Put on that hood, and put them on your children. You talk like a KKK person, only your hatred is toward gay people, you might as well wear the costume.
97
LC,
Dan's correct you are hilarious. Now you have moved on to blaming parents for gay children. So, using your argument, you're straight because your parents provided proper gender roles. Thus, Dan is gay because his mom and dad (a police officer) didn't provide proper gender roles, even though he is one of four children and the (two straight brothers, and one straight sister).
Your priceless and hilarious. Any more theories to offer?
Dan's correct you are hilarious. Now you have moved on to blaming parents for gay children. So, using your argument, you're straight because your parents provided proper gender roles. Thus, Dan is gay because his mom and dad (a police officer) didn't provide proper gender roles, even though he is one of four children and the (two straight brothers, and one straight sister).
Your priceless and hilarious. Any more theories to offer?
98
There's another point relevant to Loveschild that I think we are missing.
Loveschild: you, as a parent, have the right to teach your children anything you want about what gayness means and whether it is OK or not.
However, you do NOT have the right, nor does ANY parent, to "protect" your children from the knowledge that DIFFERING OPINIONS EXIST. You can teach them that the differing opinions are wrong, but that doesn't seem to be what you are demanding here.
Yes, if schools present neutral information about homosexuality to your children, then your children may receive the impression that there are people in the world who are favorable to, or at least neutral about, homosexuality. Yes, I in fact agree with you that this DOES undermine your desire to teach your children that homosexuality is universally and indisputably immoral. Because your children will see that other decent people, including many Christians, do not share the view of homosexuality that their parents profess.
Too bad.
Your children, and my children, and Dan's son, and all the rest of us, observe the world, consider our parents' teachings, and make up our own minds. That's how it works. You as a parent can only control what you TEACH your children. And strong teachings can certainly build a foundation and a framework for children to understand what they see in the world, and you are free to hope that your children will come to view homosexuality as the sin you think it to be. Plenty of children do. But you don't get to DECIDE that. THEY do.
We're arguing about whether access to this knowledge might turn your kids gay, which is a stupid argument and I don't really think it matters. I think from your perspective, Loveschild, if your kid is "turned" gay after learning that many people think it's OK to be gay, or if your kid is "born" gay and decides it's OK to BE gay after learning that many people think it's OK to be gay, instead of repenting and entering an ex-gay ministry like you'd presumably want, either way the outcome for you is the same and not what you want.
Too bad.
You, as a parent, do NOT have the right to absolute control over information reaching your children. You only have the right to counter the information with your own teachings, and provide context for them to understand and interpret it the way you think they should.
And that's exactly what you are afraid of, which is why you're so angry about what the world might show them. The world might persuade them that you are wrong.
I guess that's up to you, isn't it? How confident are you in your own ability to convey your own values to your own children? Not very, it sounds like.
So you're not trying to "protect your children". You're trying to protect yourself.
We're here. We're queer. Your children are going to become aware that we exist and that we're not ashamed like you have taught them we ought to be and that not everybody hates us and that some states and many countries allow us to marry. Get over it.
More...
Loveschild: you, as a parent, have the right to teach your children anything you want about what gayness means and whether it is OK or not.
However, you do NOT have the right, nor does ANY parent, to "protect" your children from the knowledge that DIFFERING OPINIONS EXIST. You can teach them that the differing opinions are wrong, but that doesn't seem to be what you are demanding here.
Yes, if schools present neutral information about homosexuality to your children, then your children may receive the impression that there are people in the world who are favorable to, or at least neutral about, homosexuality. Yes, I in fact agree with you that this DOES undermine your desire to teach your children that homosexuality is universally and indisputably immoral. Because your children will see that other decent people, including many Christians, do not share the view of homosexuality that their parents profess.
Too bad.
Your children, and my children, and Dan's son, and all the rest of us, observe the world, consider our parents' teachings, and make up our own minds. That's how it works. You as a parent can only control what you TEACH your children. And strong teachings can certainly build a foundation and a framework for children to understand what they see in the world, and you are free to hope that your children will come to view homosexuality as the sin you think it to be. Plenty of children do. But you don't get to DECIDE that. THEY do.
We're arguing about whether access to this knowledge might turn your kids gay, which is a stupid argument and I don't really think it matters. I think from your perspective, Loveschild, if your kid is "turned" gay after learning that many people think it's OK to be gay, or if your kid is "born" gay and decides it's OK to BE gay after learning that many people think it's OK to be gay, instead of repenting and entering an ex-gay ministry like you'd presumably want, either way the outcome for you is the same and not what you want.
Too bad.
You, as a parent, do NOT have the right to absolute control over information reaching your children. You only have the right to counter the information with your own teachings, and provide context for them to understand and interpret it the way you think they should.
And that's exactly what you are afraid of, which is why you're so angry about what the world might show them. The world might persuade them that you are wrong.
I guess that's up to you, isn't it? How confident are you in your own ability to convey your own values to your own children? Not very, it sounds like.
So you're not trying to "protect your children". You're trying to protect yourself.
We're here. We're queer. Your children are going to become aware that we exist and that we're not ashamed like you have taught them we ought to be and that not everybody hates us and that some states and many countries allow us to marry. Get over it.
99
26, 45, 49, 53, 64, 74, 76, 77, 91 ... aka loveschild. your reply didn't answer my question. acknowledging one's sexual orientation doesn't necessarily occur when an individual is living with one's family. so again i ask what are you going to do if one or all of your children are gay?
extrapolating on that scenario. even if one or all of your children are straight, there's a good probability that eventually you'll become a grandparent. what are you going to do if one or all of the grandchildren are gay?
another question? does the 's' in your moniker 'loveschild' mean 'straight'?
extrapolating on that scenario. even if one or all of your children are straight, there's a good probability that eventually you'll become a grandparent. what are you going to do if one or all of the grandchildren are gay?
another question? does the 's' in your moniker 'loveschild' mean 'straight'?
100
98 "schools present neutral information about homosexuality to your children"
My kids go to learn math, English, science, history not sexual ideology. They do not need to present anything else to them. Once they get out of school their father and me take over and it is us who teach them morality, values, how they need to present themselves in society and how they need to interact with other in a respectful manner that at the same time does not compromises the moral teachings we have imparted in them.
"You, as a parent, do NOT have the right to absolute control over information reaching your children."
Wrong you're I as all other american parents have every right to decide what type of ideology is being taught to my kids as the minors they are. Not Dan Savage, not any gay organization. If you want to teach privately to your kids that you're neutral when it comes to homosexuality, that's your right just as it's my duty to tell my kids according to their age and when the situation arises, for what purpose God has made them male and female. That's our descion and obligation as parents not that of schools, schools have no place whatsoever in teaching my kids about homosexuality, be it good, bad or neutral, I don't want it there period, because there will be homosexual activist teachers who will seize that to teach my kids what they think is okay against my values. Homosexuality has nothing to do with the subjects my kids need to graduate school or what they need to get into college, bsktcase. If you or Savage want a capture audience to indoctrinate your ideological view of what the world should be, experiment with your children, experiment with those of your friends or what might have you, but my kids and those in the public school system are not guinea pigs at your disposal. Be all queer and queenie till exhaustion but keep away from others kids, you have no right to tell my kids that being gay is fine, their father and me are the ones who will teach them right from wrong not you, not lobby groups infiltrating our schools and the government and not the media. And as long as you insist on infringing on my rights as a parent I have an obligation to defend my kids, fight and oppose every single one of your attempts against my family and values.
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My kids go to learn math, English, science, history not sexual ideology. They do not need to present anything else to them. Once they get out of school their father and me take over and it is us who teach them morality, values, how they need to present themselves in society and how they need to interact with other in a respectful manner that at the same time does not compromises the moral teachings we have imparted in them.
"You, as a parent, do NOT have the right to absolute control over information reaching your children."
Wrong you're I as all other american parents have every right to decide what type of ideology is being taught to my kids as the minors they are. Not Dan Savage, not any gay organization. If you want to teach privately to your kids that you're neutral when it comes to homosexuality, that's your right just as it's my duty to tell my kids according to their age and when the situation arises, for what purpose God has made them male and female. That's our descion and obligation as parents not that of schools, schools have no place whatsoever in teaching my kids about homosexuality, be it good, bad or neutral, I don't want it there period, because there will be homosexual activist teachers who will seize that to teach my kids what they think is okay against my values. Homosexuality has nothing to do with the subjects my kids need to graduate school or what they need to get into college, bsktcase. If you or Savage want a capture audience to indoctrinate your ideological view of what the world should be, experiment with your children, experiment with those of your friends or what might have you, but my kids and those in the public school system are not guinea pigs at your disposal. Be all queer and queenie till exhaustion but keep away from others kids, you have no right to tell my kids that being gay is fine, their father and me are the ones who will teach them right from wrong not you, not lobby groups infiltrating our schools and the government and not the media. And as long as you insist on infringing on my rights as a parent I have an obligation to defend my kids, fight and oppose every single one of your attempts against my family and values.
101
And, Loveschild cycles back to the "indoctrination" argument.
You know there is a solution for your fear? Buy yourself a nice island and homeschool your kids. That's the only way that you can gain absolute control over every single thing they will be exposed to. This will work, at least until they leave your island and enter into society.
You know there is a solution for your fear? Buy yourself a nice island and homeschool your kids. That's the only way that you can gain absolute control over every single thing they will be exposed to. This will work, at least until they leave your island and enter into society.
102
Loveschild, You sound like one of those southern folks who didn't like Sesame Street when it first started: They didn't want their white children indoctrinated to like people of other races.
Jump to 2009, Loveschild teaches her children to hate and fear gay people.
Sesame Street has long had to contend with those who disagree with its social content. Gerald S. Lesser comments in his book Children and Television: Lessons from Sesame Street that the show faced hostility in the southern United States when it first aired because it portrayed people of various races mingling peacefully. At first the Commission for Educational Television in Mississippi refused to air the show. However, the commission had no choice but to allow their local public television stations to air the show when commercial stations in Mississippi said they would air the program themselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sesame_Stre…
Jump to 2009, Loveschild teaches her children to hate and fear gay people.
103
@100, "you have no right to tell my kids that being gay is fine"
Does this imply that educators have no right to tell their students that being Christian is fine? I do not want these dangerous values presented as acceptable or normal to children. Think of the irreparable damage that could do to a young mind.
Does this imply that educators have no right to tell their students that being Christian is fine? I do not want these dangerous values presented as acceptable or normal to children. Think of the irreparable damage that could do to a young mind.
104
LC "You have no right to tell my kids that being gay is fine." They are gonna hear it anyway because, unless you buy an island as Kim suggested, society is changing. And that is out of your control ....... BTW, your children are not going to do well in university unless they have critical thinking skills - and that involves some knowledge of differing views. In fact, living a good life involves critical thinking skills. (No that thought isn't original to me - it is pretty old. ) Speaking of critical thinking, are you going to ever anwer my question on Canada? Canadian life doesn't seem to have come to an apocalyptic end because gay marriage was legalised ..... can you point out negatives? No rains of blood or frogs yet.....
105
When I saw the headline for this post, I thought it would be directed at the still-on-the-loose psychotic sociopath who murdered one woman and critically injured her partner in South Park, Seattle earlier this week.
106
#86.
And Loveschild isn't obsessed with Slog because he's "curious." He's obsessed with us because he knows.
The breeders at IML and Folsom are not there because they're "curious." They're there because they know.
And Loveschild isn't obsessed with Slog because he's "curious." He's obsessed with us because he knows.
107
104 There seems to be a disconnect between all of you with reality and the laws of our nation. Do you really want to go that route? Do you really want to go over my parental authority and dictate to my kids whats right and what isn't, you'd be opening a very dangerous can of worms if you did. Do you have kids Theo? Are you a foreigner, if so, from where?
108
#107
With the sick indoctrination of your bible molesting narrow opinions I guarantee you that your children will grow up to hate you. Especially when they find out that the world you made them believe in is nothing but a lie...
That is if they don't hate you already.
The sad part is that any rational thinking person can see how flimsy your arguments are. But you still choose to hate and then run and hide behind your bible (which contradicts the crap you spew).
Your Moniker should be "Hateschild" because there is no love in anything you have to say...
With the sick indoctrination of your bible molesting narrow opinions I guarantee you that your children will grow up to hate you. Especially when they find out that the world you made them believe in is nothing but a lie...
That is if they don't hate you already.
The sad part is that any rational thinking person can see how flimsy your arguments are. But you still choose to hate and then run and hide behind your bible (which contradicts the crap you spew).
Your Moniker should be "Hateschild" because there is no love in anything you have to say...
109
LC,
Whose the boogeyman going over your parental authority? No one, the rest of us are talking about reality, living the world that actually exists. Not, the imaginary nation you want to live in, where every person conforms to your whims and views. If you don't take your children to go live on your private island, they will meet people of different ethnicity, religions, sexual orientations, and family structures. In meeting these individuals they will learn about views that differ from yours. Through the arts and literature they will also become exposed to individuals who differ from them and hold different views. You have two choices, choose to teach your children your values and come to understand that they will meet others with different views, or go buy yourself that private island.
Whose the boogeyman going over your parental authority? No one, the rest of us are talking about reality, living the world that actually exists. Not, the imaginary nation you want to live in, where every person conforms to your whims and views. If you don't take your children to go live on your private island, they will meet people of different ethnicity, religions, sexual orientations, and family structures. In meeting these individuals they will learn about views that differ from yours. Through the arts and literature they will also become exposed to individuals who differ from them and hold different views. You have two choices, choose to teach your children your values and come to understand that they will meet others with different views, or go buy yourself that private island.
111
LC,
quit weaseling out. Let's say your child comes out to you as gay one day.
What would you do?
Would you want him to have rights, be treated equally as your other
children that are not gay? Or would you disown him and your future grandchildren he might adopt?Would you tell him he is not your son anymore ?
quit weaseling out. Let's say your child comes out to you as gay one day.
What would you do?
Would you want him to have rights, be treated equally as your other
children that are not gay? Or would you disown him and your future grandchildren he might adopt?Would you tell him he is not your son anymore ?
112
@97
Kim, you are so right :) LC is priceless.
If she didnt exist, she would have to be invented, as they say. Hatemongers like that are a big asset to gay rights proponents
Kim, you are so right :) LC is priceless.
If she didnt exist, she would have to be invented, as they say. Hatemongers like that are a big asset to gay rights proponents
114
Loveschild made a reference to something called "ass pants" way up in the thread. Ass pants? What the hell are ass pants? And where can I get a pair?
115
111 Let me use another approach in explaining this to you since you seem to be having a hard time understanding the simple realities of life, and use Mr Savage (since y'all since to be soo fond of him) as an example. In gonna tell you the same thing Mr Savage said in one of his little q&a "lectures" in which he talked about being the surrogate caretaker of a child. Even though there's a very important difference between my raising of my children a what he has confronted (due to the confusing aspect of his situation), he did say something that's common to all parents regardless unless and in the few instances when a child exhibits emotional distress. So like him (as a caretaker) and all of us who are parents, even way before the age of seven I knew my boys were straight, they exhibit attraction to the opposite sex, they have girlfriends now and they have no confusion regarding their gender. They're very much secure in their sexuality (the difference with Savage's case in raising a child) as young men and they get that they will be straight when they grow up. Same with my girl, she gets it, she's straight, she has shown no inkling whatsoever of emotional distress. It all boils down to the enviorement, the household the child is in. Good parenting and having a father and mother present to guide them through their development into adulthood. If done right and in caring way towards the child that immediately dispels any confussion regarding their sexuality (or wanting to be gay), it's not easy, raising kids is not easy but with love and a correct set of values (something that sadly most don't adhere to) it can be done.
The myth of gay kids is disproved by stats that show that the vast majority of children shed their dislike of the opposite sex once they reach their adolescence. It is only in cases where there have been serious emotional damage done to a kid that such tendencies persist and if not treated properly continue and solidify into adulthood where it becomes very difficult to overcome due to many factors.
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The myth of gay kids is disproved by stats that show that the vast majority of children shed their dislike of the opposite sex once they reach their adolescence. It is only in cases where there have been serious emotional damage done to a kid that such tendencies persist and if not treated properly continue and solidify into adulthood where it becomes very difficult to overcome due to many factors.
116
LC,
concentrate, please. YOu are not answering. It is possible that your children are straight, i agree , but that is not the issue here. Lets just hypothetically assume one of them is gay, for the sake of discussion, ok?
So again,it's a fairly simple question:
What are you going to do if one or all of your children or grandchildren are gay?
I can help you with the answer a bit . It starts with :
if one of my (Loveschild's) grandchildren, or I ever have any adopted children, foster children, nieces or nephews, second cousins, etc. grow up to be gay and come out to me, I ....
concentrate, please. YOu are not answering. It is possible that your children are straight, i agree , but that is not the issue here. Lets just hypothetically assume one of them is gay, for the sake of discussion, ok?
So again,it's a fairly simple question:
What are you going to do if one or all of your children or grandchildren are gay?
I can help you with the answer a bit . It starts with :
if one of my (Loveschild's) grandchildren, or I ever have any adopted children, foster children, nieces or nephews, second cousins, etc. grow up to be gay and come out to me, I ....
117
@ 116, LC is one of those people who are completely incapable of even entertaining the notion. What will happen if one of her kids or grandkids turns out gay is that her world will collapse.
Do not try to reason with the Loveschild, unless you like watching her twist and turn her way out of it. That has some entertainment value.
Do not try to reason with the Loveschild, unless you like watching her twist and turn her way out of it. That has some entertainment value.
118
116, She's not going to answer. She already has said in the past that she'd beat her child with a belt if she found out they were "sexting", (I wonder how often she does beat her children?) so imagine the horrors that awaits her child if and when he comes out to her. If her children are smart, they'll stay closeted.
119
To add, They should stay closeted to LC, not the rest of the world, as they'd see that her love of her child is very, very conditional.
120
116 Sweetie, you just dont get it do you? I don't deal with hipotheticals, certainly not with myths. I take care of my children, We work very hard to provide for them not only food, shelter and clothing for their physical well being but also moral and spiritual values for their emotional and mental well being. They have our example, that of their grandparents and that of their aunts and uncles to follow. We have laid their foundation on a solid rock. Matthew 7:24, My husband and I have obeyed our heavenly father and we have teached our children the same love and personal connection that we have with our Lord and saviour. When you do that my dear Alinka, it doesn't mean that we will be exempt from the same tribulations that afflict the world but it means that we will be provided with that guiding heavenly light (the word of God) that will show us the path of life. We as a family are doing as such. Hence my children are healthy individuals free of gender confusions.
It's simple Alinka, Proverbs 22:6 "Teach your children to choose the right path, and when they are older, they will remain upon it."
It's simple Alinka, Proverbs 22:6 "Teach your children to choose the right path, and when they are older, they will remain upon it."
121
120, In other words, you won't see it coming, and when it happens, you'll be so unspeakably cruel, that your child will probably end up committing suicide.
123
So, LC--
"...even way before the age of seven I knew my boys were straight, they exhibit attraction to the opposite sex..."
So, way before the age of seven would imply, oh, I don't know... that you were certain of your children's sexuality with they were say, five or six?
Oh, REALLY?
But, "Five year olds are not physically nor mentally developed enough to feel such things."
Thanks for confirming my point with examples from your own experience, LC. Or does this only work when the parent is projecting their own completely inflexibile expectations on the child?
God help the gay little one that comes within 5 miles of you...
"...even way before the age of seven I knew my boys were straight, they exhibit attraction to the opposite sex..."
So, way before the age of seven would imply, oh, I don't know... that you were certain of your children's sexuality with they were say, five or six?
Oh, REALLY?
But, "Five year olds are not physically nor mentally developed enough to feel such things."
Thanks for confirming my point with examples from your own experience, LC. Or does this only work when the parent is projecting their own completely inflexibile expectations on the child?
God help the gay little one that comes within 5 miles of you...
124
26, 45, 49, 53, 64, 74, 76, 77, 91, 100, 107, 115, 120 ... aka loveschild:
you still haven't answered my question. what are you going to do if you find out that one or all of your children, are gay?
or grandchildren? or other relatives?
or are you hiding your own sexual orientation?
you still haven't answered my question. what are you going to do if you find out that one or all of your children, are gay?
or grandchildren? or other relatives?
or are you hiding your own sexual orientation?
125
Alinka,
Many months ago I asked her the same question. Don't be surprised if you don't get an answer. She's a milk christian, an infant in Christ, if she isn't lying in her comments below. As is often the case in the young, she is enthusiastic, zealous, prideful, presumptive, and rude. She hasn't lived, and yet is convinced she has all the answers. As you are well aware, those yet to be perfected in love are fearful children. Which is why she defends herself, she is without confidence that she could love outside her rule ridden and controlled box.
"I also find that zealotry from both homosexuals and Christians don't allow for a reasonable conclusion on this subject. I find that once this two groups are kept out of the constructive decision making the people in the middle as it has occurred many times before will always end up making the best pragmatist decision on this subject."
Posted by Loveschild on February 16, 2009 at 1:36 PM
"I'm not that religious but I know that society will not be able to stand all the ills recognizing those unions equally with that of heterosexual couples like yours and mine will bring to our children and to an already fragile society at large."
Posted by Loveschild on February 16, 2009 at 9:37 PM
Many months ago I asked her the same question. Don't be surprised if you don't get an answer. She's a milk christian, an infant in Christ, if she isn't lying in her comments below. As is often the case in the young, she is enthusiastic, zealous, prideful, presumptive, and rude. She hasn't lived, and yet is convinced she has all the answers. As you are well aware, those yet to be perfected in love are fearful children. Which is why she defends herself, she is without confidence that she could love outside her rule ridden and controlled box.
"I also find that zealotry from both homosexuals and Christians don't allow for a reasonable conclusion on this subject. I find that once this two groups are kept out of the constructive decision making the people in the middle as it has occurred many times before will always end up making the best pragmatist decision on this subject."
Posted by Loveschild on February 16, 2009 at 1:36 PM
"I'm not that religious but I know that society will not be able to stand all the ills recognizing those unions equally with that of heterosexual couples like yours and mine will bring to our children and to an already fragile society at large."
Posted by Loveschild on February 16, 2009 at 9:37 PM
126
LC @ 91:
"When you have had a distorted image about gender roles...[t]hen you end up with challenging feelings inside you that create confusion and cause you to behave in certain ways...that bring with them physical and mental health risks that can hinder your quality of life and shorten your lifespan on this earth."
My father taught me how to play softball and football and how to make pizza from scratch. My mother taught me how to use power tools, correctly prep a room for painting, and bake a Coca-Cola cake. I was taught to be a good and useful person, (rather than a certain kind of woman) and to look for love with other good and useful people (rather than a certain kind of man).
I doubt that my well-rounded ability to provide for myself and my loved ones will hinder my quality of life and shorten my lifespan (esp. since I keep the Coca-Cola cake to only once a year). However, I am sure that as long as there are heteros raised the way my parents raised me, our homo friends and relatives will have all the support we can give them...and you douchebags *will* end up the minority, and then you *will* indeed surrender. As treacle said @37: we have cookies! And Coca-Cola cake!
"When you have had a distorted image about gender roles...[t]hen you end up with challenging feelings inside you that create confusion and cause you to behave in certain ways...that bring with them physical and mental health risks that can hinder your quality of life and shorten your lifespan on this earth."
My father taught me how to play softball and football and how to make pizza from scratch. My mother taught me how to use power tools, correctly prep a room for painting, and bake a Coca-Cola cake. I was taught to be a good and useful person, (rather than a certain kind of woman) and to look for love with other good and useful people (rather than a certain kind of man).
I doubt that my well-rounded ability to provide for myself and my loved ones will hinder my quality of life and shorten my lifespan (esp. since I keep the Coca-Cola cake to only once a year). However, I am sure that as long as there are heteros raised the way my parents raised me, our homo friends and relatives will have all the support we can give them...and you douchebags *will* end up the minority, and then you *will* indeed surrender. As treacle said @37: we have cookies! And Coca-Cola cake!
129
120---Proverbs 22:6 "Teach your children to choose the right path, and when they are older, they will remain upon it."--
Sure,but as practical life on this Earth undeniably proves, sometimes kids with most godly parents and biblically sound upbringing do grow up into gay adults.
We all have free will, humans are not products on an assembly line.
What about evil people - murderers, thieves, adulterers, etc.. that often come up from the most godly families? Bible has such examples, i am sure you are aware.
I hope you are a reasonable person and not implying that you are the only person in the history of the world that is immune to ever producing kids that are not what you want them to be.
So please, answer the question we keep asking you.
If you refuse to answer, should we just assume you would kill your child in such case, rationalizing it as "cleaning the world from filth" or something to that effect?
PS Thanks to Rob and Matt. Good advice, i probably should just give up :)
Sure,but as practical life on this Earth undeniably proves, sometimes kids with most godly parents and biblically sound upbringing do grow up into gay adults.
We all have free will, humans are not products on an assembly line.
What about evil people - murderers, thieves, adulterers, etc.. that often come up from the most godly families? Bible has such examples, i am sure you are aware.
I hope you are a reasonable person and not implying that you are the only person in the history of the world that is immune to ever producing kids that are not what you want them to be.
So please, answer the question we keep asking you.
If you refuse to answer, should we just assume you would kill your child in such case, rationalizing it as "cleaning the world from filth" or something to that effect?
PS Thanks to Rob and Matt. Good advice, i probably should just give up :)
130
To Kim @ 125
:) Appreciate your post, you are helpful, as usual. Wish you were among writers for Slog, you have much great stuff to say.
:) Appreciate your post, you are helpful, as usual. Wish you were among writers for Slog, you have much great stuff to say.
132
I honestly do not believe Loveschild will answer your question, regarding the possibility of her own children being gay.
Why? Because it is obvious to me (yet she does not come out and directly state it) she is of the belief it is all "nurture, not nature," argument that makes one gay or straight.
Even though people like myself can state until I'm blue in the face, that I've always known I was "different" or "gay," she will always believe, my gayness is the result of bad parenting. I'm not sure which makes me more angry at Loveschild: That she insults my parents, blaming them for my being gay, or that she believes she knows "me" better than I know myself. Therefore I must be lying to myself and the world when I state I was born gay.
So, I've come to learn it is best for everyone involved that I just ignore people like her.
Why? Because it is obvious to me (yet she does not come out and directly state it) she is of the belief it is all "nurture, not nature," argument that makes one gay or straight.
Even though people like myself can state until I'm blue in the face, that I've always known I was "different" or "gay," she will always believe, my gayness is the result of bad parenting. I'm not sure which makes me more angry at Loveschild: That she insults my parents, blaming them for my being gay, or that she believes she knows "me" better than I know myself. Therefore I must be lying to myself and the world when I state I was born gay.
So, I've come to learn it is best for everyone involved that I just ignore people like her.
133
All readers know about this 'Loveschild" character is that he/she needs attention, uses trademarked Disney material for an avatar, will not use his/her real name, likes to read about gays and marriage on Slog. Readers also know this oddity often professes a strong belief in the evil god of Abraham. Any "opposite soul" who has the gall to lecture others about child-rearing and commitment, who follows the myths as a believer of a cranky desert deity--one Who Likes To Ask Parents To KIll Offspring as a Test of Faith, should be quietly relegated to silence. Close the door on her spiritual closet and walk away.
134
I'm afraid that most of us know that if Loveschild found out that a child of hers was gay that she'd feel justified in doing something "drastic". Which is to say that we'd be reading about her on the ECDAMAF tagged posts.
As those posts point out time and again, a child having "straight" or "opposite sex" parents is in no way an insurance that the child will be free from harm by one or both of those parents - especially if the parent feels that their actions are "justified" (either by a real or perceived slight from the child - like thinking, acting, or being different than how the parent(s) expect or because the child reminds them of a past person [in resemblance, action, or bloodline] to someone they on some level want to hurt or punish).
I agree with the comments above that if LC didn't cause out-and-out physical harm and damage on a child making such an admission, she would (and some could argue that she already has, if her words and deeds in real life are in anyway reflected in her comments on Slog) at the very least create a toxic psychological and emotional environment in which the child would feel that suicide were the only way out.
Since LC won't answer how she would react if a child in her life came out, we really have no choice to assume that she would act in a way that is consistent with her remarks here - and that it would result in a tragic outcome for that child.
As those posts point out time and again, a child having "straight" or "opposite sex" parents is in no way an insurance that the child will be free from harm by one or both of those parents - especially if the parent feels that their actions are "justified" (either by a real or perceived slight from the child - like thinking, acting, or being different than how the parent(s) expect or because the child reminds them of a past person [in resemblance, action, or bloodline] to someone they on some level want to hurt or punish).
I agree with the comments above that if LC didn't cause out-and-out physical harm and damage on a child making such an admission, she would (and some could argue that she already has, if her words and deeds in real life are in anyway reflected in her comments on Slog) at the very least create a toxic psychological and emotional environment in which the child would feel that suicide were the only way out.
Since LC won't answer how she would react if a child in her life came out, we really have no choice to assume that she would act in a way that is consistent with her remarks here - and that it would result in a tragic outcome for that child.
135
This is why gay marriage opponents are gonna go the way of the dinosaur:
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2…
"Almost two-thirds agree that religious faith should focus more on promoting tolerance, social justice, and peace in society, and less on opposing abortion or gay rights."
" People’s opinions certainly do change throughout life, but they are more likely to hold onto existing views than to reverse them."
And yes, LC, I'm a foreigner: I originate from a distant planet in a galaxy far, far away. My home planet is one where the air is bracing (although it is warm as blood) and the people and ecosystems are diverse and beautiful and incredibly varied . It is a place where people (you may not recognzie them as human as they are all feathered bipeds) live sustainably and don't breed beyond the carrying capacity of the Mother; where diversity is welcomed and encouraged; where excellent artists, musicians, sculptors, singers, gardeners, actors, directors, writers, potters, et al have the highest social status; and where each person is responsible for finding their own spiritual path and it is acknowledged that all paths are blessed as long as they are walked with loving kindness. Although genetic material is mixed to create new generations of bird people, same sex orentation and attraction is considered a GIFT ...... OK now I'm very very homesick.
And yes, I have a child although I don't think you would recognize my family since it doesn't follow your norms.
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2…
"Almost two-thirds agree that religious faith should focus more on promoting tolerance, social justice, and peace in society, and less on opposing abortion or gay rights."
" People’s opinions certainly do change throughout life, but they are more likely to hold onto existing views than to reverse them."
And yes, LC, I'm a foreigner: I originate from a distant planet in a galaxy far, far away. My home planet is one where the air is bracing (although it is warm as blood) and the people and ecosystems are diverse and beautiful and incredibly varied . It is a place where people (you may not recognzie them as human as they are all feathered bipeds) live sustainably and don't breed beyond the carrying capacity of the Mother; where diversity is welcomed and encouraged; where excellent artists, musicians, sculptors, singers, gardeners, actors, directors, writers, potters, et al have the highest social status; and where each person is responsible for finding their own spiritual path and it is acknowledged that all paths are blessed as long as they are walked with loving kindness. Although genetic material is mixed to create new generations of bird people, same sex orentation and attraction is considered a GIFT ...... OK now I'm very very homesick.
And yes, I have a child although I don't think you would recognize my family since it doesn't follow your norms.
136
Whoosp! Should have said that the quotes above are from the site and are the opinions of the millenial generation.
137
Kim @ 128:
[Cake] Sift 2 c sugar and 2 c flour into a large bowl. Heat 1 c butter, 3 T cocoa, and 1 c Coca-Cola in a saucepan until melted. By hand or on the slow setting of your mixer, combine flour and cola mixtures. Add 1/2 c buttermilk, 1 t baking soda, 1 t vanilla, and 1.5 c mini marshmallows (I use marshmallow fluff b/c I don't do gelatin, either works). Spread into a 9 x 13 pan, bake at 350* for 40 minutes or so. Spread immediately with icing (below).
[Icing] Cream 1/2 c butter (softened) and 3 T cocoa. Add 1 box powdered sugar and 1/3 c Coca-Cola a bit at a time, so they incorporate.
1.5 c of butter? Box of powdered sugar? Yikes, right? Special occasion only!
[Cake] Sift 2 c sugar and 2 c flour into a large bowl. Heat 1 c butter, 3 T cocoa, and 1 c Coca-Cola in a saucepan until melted. By hand or on the slow setting of your mixer, combine flour and cola mixtures. Add 1/2 c buttermilk, 1 t baking soda, 1 t vanilla, and 1.5 c mini marshmallows (I use marshmallow fluff b/c I don't do gelatin, either works). Spread into a 9 x 13 pan, bake at 350* for 40 minutes or so. Spread immediately with icing (below).
[Icing] Cream 1/2 c butter (softened) and 3 T cocoa. Add 1 box powdered sugar and 1/3 c Coca-Cola a bit at a time, so they incorporate.
1.5 c of butter? Box of powdered sugar? Yikes, right? Special occasion only!
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