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News & ArtsWednesday, July 22, 2009
Savage Love Savage Love Letter of the Day
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 4:23 PM
Okay, hell—I don't have a clever opening paragraph, or a cutesy moniker, or anything like that. What I do have is a problem.I'm straight, married, and unfortunately, completely infatuated with the idea of meeting up with a stranger and stroking until I blow my load onto their eager, waiting face. And thanks to the glory that is the Internets, I've found no shortage of people willing to receive said load. The problem, as I mentioned, is I'm married. Happily so, even though my wife, for perfectly legitimate reasons related to traumas past, would be horrified at the very thought of this fantasy.
So... is it cheating? I mean, I stroke all the time, which is obviously not. And my fantasy doesn't include any contact, so on one hand, there's no difference. But on the other hand, it FEELS like cheating, and if my wife were to find out, she'd no doubt agree. So what's a horny guy who otherwise strives to be a decent husband to do? Help! Please!
Curiosity Killed The MarriageP.S. Yeah, I winced when I read it back, too.
Meeting up with a stranger to blow a load on their face? What's with avoiding a gendered pronoun, CKTM? Is part of the problem the fact that you want to blow that load on a man's face? Is the wife's trauma related to a previous boyfriend/spouse who cheated on her with a dude? Or I am reading too much into that "their" and there's really no there there?
First, is it cheating? Yes it is. If a person is close enough to another person to hit his or her face with his or her load, CKTM, that person is masturbating with that other person, not just in that other person's proximity. Most reasonable people would regard that as cheating, as would most unreasonable people.
That said...
Yours is the kind of question that gets my gay ass in big trouble, CKTM. On the one hand I believe that people should realize their fantasies—you only go around once—but I also believe that people should honor their commitments whenever possible. And while I believe that people should be able to share their fantasies with their spouses—even fantasies that involve people other than the spouse—I know that not all spouses can handle hearing about those fantasies. And when it comes to a fantasy that can be realized safely and harmlessly—like blowing a load on a stranger's face—I'm tempted to come down on the "go for it" side and issue a permission slip.
But then I think about the harm that will be done if you should get caught, CKTM, and that makes me hesitate. You've thought about it too, CKTM, which explains why you winced when you read over your email before sending it. What the wife doesn't know won't hurt her, as the saying goes, but the consequences if the wife should find out—if she comes across a stray email (already a possibility) or if you mess around with a bunny boiler (you never know)—will be dire. And that makes me wanna tell you not to go for it. I mean, what if you're clumsy and inept and get caught and your marriage ends? I'll feel responsible even if it was your clumsiness and ineptitude that killed your marriage.
So I'm gonna tell you not to go for it... even though... in all honesty... and I realize this makes me a piece of shit... I would probably go for it if I were in your shoes, i.e., if I were married to someone with whom I honestly couldn't share my fantasies—and that wasn't just something I made up because I was too embarrassed or ashamed to share my fantasies—and these fantasies could be realized safely and harmlessly with someone else without imperiling my marriage.
But I'm not you and you're not me and I'm not telling you to go for it. I'm telling you not to go for it. Even though I probably would.
But you shouldn't.
Okay?
UPDATE: Onion in comments: "I've always wanted to ask: Guys? What IS it about blowing the load on a face? Why is it so hot? I just don't get it." Feel free to unload on facials generally in comments, guys.
1
First he needs to tell his wife about his fantasy. Maybe, they can find a compromise. She could dress up and/or wear a costume and he could pick this "stranger" up in a bar. Take the "stranger" to a motel, blow his load and return the "stranger" to the bar. I know it sounds lame, but if they discuss it they may be able to make it work for both of them.
3
@1, seemed to me that he'd be fine doing it to his wife, but getting a load blown on her face is a big NO from her side.
4
No, Dan, you're not a piece of shit. But your fucking server definitely is. Would you please get someone to fix the Goddamned thing?
5
I think he should just the fuck over it. There are tons of things we may want to do in life, but cannot as the consequences outweigh the benefits. I mean if he doesn't actually like his wife then leave her and spray away, but if he values the relationship then this is just one of those things he will not be able to do.
Its really not that big of a fucking deal.
Its really not that big of a fucking deal.
6
The stranger is obviously a major part of his fantasy.
The gender-neutral pronoun is glaring. Either the stranger's gender doesn't matter or the guy is only seeking other men.
I'm straight, married, and unfortunately, completely infatuated with the idea of meeting up with a stranger and stroking until I blow my load onto their eager, waiting face.
The stranger is obviously a major part of his fantasy.
The gender-neutral pronoun is glaring. Either the stranger's gender doesn't matter or the guy is only seeking other men.
7
i've always wanted to ask. guys - what IS it about blowing the load on a face? why is it so hot?
i just don't get it.
yeah STJA, if you read this, go ahead and answer.
i just don't get it.
yeah STJA, if you read this, go ahead and answer.
8
kitschnsync and Frank,
I didn't get the impression that she was necessarily against getting the facial (from either the letter or Dan's response), but I could be in error. If that is so, then that makes the letter sad. His desire is mild, benign, and even sweet, if he just wants to give her a facial. I'm not in her shoes, but I would not refuse my husband that pleasure.
I didn't get the impression that she was necessarily against getting the facial (from either the letter or Dan's response), but I could be in error. If that is so, then that makes the letter sad. His desire is mild, benign, and even sweet, if he just wants to give her a facial. I'm not in her shoes, but I would not refuse my husband that pleasure.
10
This is a tough call. But if I made a commitment with one person I would either have to keep that commitment or tell that person I wanted out of the commitment. I just think sneaking around and cheating won't be good for you or them. That's the kind of thing that seeps into the marriage and leads to senseless fighting and hurt feelings with someone you love. If you love them you should level with them. Either that or just forget the fantasy. But first, maybe counseling.
11
@5, that's really easy to say when it's someone else's sexuality. this is his fantasy, and people are entitled to those. people are also entitled to live out their fantasies, especially if they're as bafflingly simple as this one. he's not asking for his wife to let fifteen fucking men gangbang her, he's asking if he can blow a load somewhere specific.
dan, i'm curious though. why didn't you suggest cktm get his wife involved? i mean, why can't she be involved in the selection of the stranger? i mean, her being there and seeing that there's no physical contact could help lessen, if not eliminate, the whole "cheating" aspect of the fantasy. he made it clear that he didn't discuss this with the wife, but with such a simply executed fantasy, if she won't do it, i don't know what the harm is if it gets done elsewhere. the trauma thing poses an issue, but he's making that assumption, he didn't say he knew that'd be true. i think a fairly obvious solution would be to talk to your fucking wife, tell her this is your fantasy, and ask if she'd be willing to oblige. if not, tell her you'd like her permission to do this. suggest she be involved. maybe a threesome could be in order? if as we're all suspecting the gender doesn't matter, maybe he could entice her with a mmf threesome.
dan, i'm curious though. why didn't you suggest cktm get his wife involved? i mean, why can't she be involved in the selection of the stranger? i mean, her being there and seeing that there's no physical contact could help lessen, if not eliminate, the whole "cheating" aspect of the fantasy. he made it clear that he didn't discuss this with the wife, but with such a simply executed fantasy, if she won't do it, i don't know what the harm is if it gets done elsewhere. the trauma thing poses an issue, but he's making that assumption, he didn't say he knew that'd be true. i think a fairly obvious solution would be to talk to your fucking wife, tell her this is your fantasy, and ask if she'd be willing to oblige. if not, tell her you'd like her permission to do this. suggest she be involved. maybe a threesome could be in order? if as we're all suspecting the gender doesn't matter, maybe he could entice her with a mmf threesome.
12
Instead of "blowing your load", try and cover your mouth when you sneeze...or at least, use a handkerchief.
13
@11 No people are not entitled to live out their fantasies. That's absurd.
Part of commitment is sacrifice. People draw lines in different places, but she is, and again assuming from the letter, not willing to give up the monogamy aspect. Maybe that is her fantasy, having someone commit to her and only her for life.
The are all sorts of things we want to do in life, some we can do, some we can't, and some we can only do if are willing to lose out on others. Sorry but sexual fantasies are not different.
I am not saying he should not talk to her about this and see if they can work something out, but she is not wrong if this is not something she is willing to let him do anymore than he would be wrong if he decided that the relationship was not working for him.
Part of commitment is sacrifice. People draw lines in different places, but she is, and again assuming from the letter, not willing to give up the monogamy aspect. Maybe that is her fantasy, having someone commit to her and only her for life.
The are all sorts of things we want to do in life, some we can do, some we can't, and some we can only do if are willing to lose out on others. Sorry but sexual fantasies are not different.
I am not saying he should not talk to her about this and see if they can work something out, but she is not wrong if this is not something she is willing to let him do anymore than he would be wrong if he decided that the relationship was not working for him.
15
I don't get the blowing a load on another person's face thing either.
This guy I used to date always wanted me to cum on his face, I really didn't get it.
This guy I used to date always wanted me to cum on his face, I really didn't get it.
16
Onion - it's a power/humiliation thing. As a straight woman who really gets into it, I can definitely say that for me and my husband it's all about humiliation (in a good way). I'm sucking his cock, and eager for his come, but he's so disgusted with what a dirty whore I am that he won't even blow in my mouth. Sorry if that was a little graphic.
17
"My wife ... would be horrified at the very thought of this fantasy."
The wording of that sentence makes me believe he's never asked her and doesn't care to because the "stranger" is just as much the driving force behind this fantasy as the act itself.
The wording of that sentence makes me believe he's never asked her and doesn't care to because the "stranger" is just as much the driving force behind this fantasy as the act itself.
18
Sorry, let me be more specific.
"No people are not entitled to live out their fantasies. That's absurd."
Okay, but then you say:
"Maybe that is her fantasy, having someone commit to her and only her for life."
So she IS entitled to live out her fantasy, but he is NOT? Why?
"No people are not entitled to live out their fantasies. That's absurd."
Okay, but then you say:
"Maybe that is her fantasy, having someone commit to her and only her for life."
So she IS entitled to live out her fantasy, but he is NOT? Why?
19
If I'm going to have an orgasm, my vast, vast preference is to do so inside my sweetie's vagina. A distant second to that is inside any vagina. Other orifices or locations are wwwwaaaayyyy down in the weeds.
So, I agree with onion. I completely don't get the thrill of giving someone a facial.
So, I agree with onion. I completely don't get the thrill of giving someone a facial.
20
Blowing a load on someone's face is hot (for me, anyway) because it completely degrades them. It defiles the person in the truest sense of the word, because a face is pretty much the equivalent of a person. It is complete indulgence, domination, and dismissiveness of person you're spooging on.
The problem is, I think the guy in the letter wants the stranger to LIKE it. Maybe his turn-on is "this person is so hot for me they want my load right in their fucking FACE" or something like that.
The point is, I think the satisfaction comes from different places for different guys.
The problem is, I think the guy in the letter wants the stranger to LIKE it. Maybe his turn-on is "this person is so hot for me they want my load right in their fucking FACE" or something like that.
The point is, I think the satisfaction comes from different places for different guys.
21
@18 Of course she isn't. He can leave her at anytime. But the letter was from his perspective.
Like I said if this is that big of a deal for him then he should leave her if she is not willing to go along. I know personally I would not end a relationship over a sexual fantasy, and I certainly have them, but that is me.
But if he wants to stay with her, and this is not something she is OK with then he is going to have to figure out how to get over it. It might not be ideal for him, but it is the reality of the situation. Especially since it is he who wants to amend the terms of the relationship. I am going to assume this relationship has been one which has monogamy. Now if they had say said at the beginning that non-monogamy was acceptable then it would be different.
Like I said if this is that big of a deal for him then he should leave her if she is not willing to go along. I know personally I would not end a relationship over a sexual fantasy, and I certainly have them, but that is me.
But if he wants to stay with her, and this is not something she is OK with then he is going to have to figure out how to get over it. It might not be ideal for him, but it is the reality of the situation. Especially since it is he who wants to amend the terms of the relationship. I am going to assume this relationship has been one which has monogamy. Now if they had say said at the beginning that non-monogamy was acceptable then it would be different.
22
@17: I think that's an interesting point. If coming on someone's face is about humiliating them, as some have said, then it's sort of implicit that the person wanting to humiliate their sex partner (even in a completely healthy, good-natured, role-playing fantasy way) sees something shameful about coming, or at least the semen itself.
There does seem to be a hint, here, that the writer needs to hold on to the idea that his wife would be horrified by this desire in order for the fantasy to retain its full meaning for him. In which case, it's kind of a virgin-whore thing going on, and it would probably be healthier to put everything on the table.
On the other hand, he says "related to traumas past" but doesn't get specific. If telling her would would invoke abuse-related PTSD symptoms, it's extremely reasonable of him to choose to keep this to himself.
There does seem to be a hint, here, that the writer needs to hold on to the idea that his wife would be horrified by this desire in order for the fantasy to retain its full meaning for him. In which case, it's kind of a virgin-whore thing going on, and it would probably be healthier to put everything on the table.
On the other hand, he says "related to traumas past" but doesn't get specific. If telling her would would invoke abuse-related PTSD symptoms, it's extremely reasonable of him to choose to keep this to himself.
23
We need a new tagging system in the comments so that you can skip the pickering BS and just read the parts where people explain why they like a particular sex act.
Reading about all this domination and degradation is hot, and almost makes it worth shifting through the crappy back and forth that makes up the monogamy vs. non-monogamy argument that almost every comment thread regarding Savage Love turns into.
More facials, less faithfuls!
Reading about all this domination and degradation is hot, and almost makes it worth shifting through the crappy back and forth that makes up the monogamy vs. non-monogamy argument that almost every comment thread regarding Savage Love turns into.
More facials, less faithfuls!
24
@13, peoples sexual fantasies, in part, define their sexuality. if he's not entitled to live out something THIS simple, i don't see why he'd even stay with her. perhaps i should have phrased better though, people aren't entitled to their fantasies/fetishes/what have you, but the GGG label applies. if his wife won't let him live out this insanely harmless fantasy on her, i can't see why she couldn't/can't let him live it out in general. once again, discussion is the primary issue here. he's not talking to his wife, by his own admission. say something. she'll know what you want, he'll know what he can have. if he can't have his fantasy, maybe it's not worth staying. (in a most extreme circumstance, i'm not saying that he should leave her for THIS.)
as for the facials, as the recipient of a few, it's fucking hott. being degraded like that, and the "marking" aspect of it. like your partner owns you, in a way. or maybe it's just me.
as for the facials, as the recipient of a few, it's fucking hott. being degraded like that, and the "marking" aspect of it. like your partner owns you, in a way. or maybe it's just me.
25
Good advice from Dan again. The poor guy is in a tight place, and there's no helping that. It sucks, but some answers aren't always good answers. I hope that guy can find some way to work things out.
And to Dan's question - personally seeing someone's face covered in your spunk (maybe not *covered* but you know what I mean) is a huge stroke to the ego when your a top. Nothing says "I can control you" like having someone on their knees or laying down to get a face full.
And to Dan's question - personally seeing someone's face covered in your spunk (maybe not *covered* but you know what I mean) is a huge stroke to the ego when your a top. Nothing says "I can control you" like having someone on their knees or laying down to get a face full.
26
I'm a guy who likes to cum outside my partner possibly a little more than I like to come inside my partner.
There's many facets to it. One it's just fucking HOT. You see it in mainstream porn all the time, and when you're able to do it it just makes me feel like the woman I'm fucking is, in fact, a pornstar. For my part there is no degradation or humiliation at all, I just find it to be aesthetically pleasing. I am a very giving lover and I want my partner to cum until she can barely speak her native tongue. When I'm done, I just think it's hot to see a girl holding her tits together and asking me to shoot my hot load all over her.
My girlfriend isn't really into it, but she's a wonderful GGG Woman and she indulges me about 30% of the time. I make sure she knows how much I appreciate her for allowing me my kink and do my best to show her how much I absolutely respect and love her.
Other pros that feed in:
It doesn't get her pregnant
You can cum without a condom on
It's easier to wipe up after rather than (if with a fluid bonded partner) having it leak out on the bed or gush out of her when she stands up
Possible factors as to why this guys wife won't let him:
Had a guy who treated her like shit and insisted he cum on her face every time
Got an eye problem from someone jooking in her eye
Got cheated on in the past
Has generalized sexual hang-ups that make her see anything but missionary as "dirty" and not in a fun way.
There's many facets to it. One it's just fucking HOT. You see it in mainstream porn all the time, and when you're able to do it it just makes me feel like the woman I'm fucking is, in fact, a pornstar. For my part there is no degradation or humiliation at all, I just find it to be aesthetically pleasing. I am a very giving lover and I want my partner to cum until she can barely speak her native tongue. When I'm done, I just think it's hot to see a girl holding her tits together and asking me to shoot my hot load all over her.
My girlfriend isn't really into it, but she's a wonderful GGG Woman and she indulges me about 30% of the time. I make sure she knows how much I appreciate her for allowing me my kink and do my best to show her how much I absolutely respect and love her.
Other pros that feed in:
It doesn't get her pregnant
You can cum without a condom on
It's easier to wipe up after rather than (if with a fluid bonded partner) having it leak out on the bed or gush out of her when she stands up
Possible factors as to why this guys wife won't let him:
Had a guy who treated her like shit and insisted he cum on her face every time
Got an eye problem from someone jooking in her eye
Got cheated on in the past
Has generalized sexual hang-ups that make her see anything but missionary as "dirty" and not in a fun way.
27
Take my advice lads: If you convince your wife to take a load in the face, DON'T CUM IN HER EYE, or that will be the last time she'll agree to it.
Facials are hot because it's a form of submission (like spanking, doggy style, or hard fucking).
Facials are hot because it's a form of submission (like spanking, doggy style, or hard fucking).
28
PS - Unless you are willing to pay, the internet is NOT crawling with women looking for a stranger to cum in their faces.
Therefore, we can only assume this guy wants to cum on a man's face.
Therefore, we can only assume this guy wants to cum on a man's face.
29
@27: Doggy is a power thing?
I just thought it was all about the different angle and reacharounds that made it feel good
I just thought it was all about the different angle and reacharounds that made it feel good
30
@16:
Sorry, I know I'm over my quota here, but holy jesus that was the hottest slog comment ever.
Sorry, I know I'm over my quota here, but holy jesus that was the hottest slog comment ever.
31
Coming on someone's face is good for variety. If you only had sex exactly the same every time, it'd get boring fast, and that includes if every time you got off, it was in a stranger's face... that'd get boring too, but once in a while makes it fun.
32
@24 I guess I am assuming the issue is him wanting to do it on a stranger. Yeah if it was on her, not indulging is not all that cool. In that case I would think she should give a little bit. I am a big fan of GGG but I think the monogamy boundary is a big one, and not something like say wanting a blow job while tied to a chair or to dress like a pirate.
But even if she won't I don't really buy into the whole idea that an all consuming sexual fetish is that healthy. Fetishes and the like are totally normal, but when they get to the point that they are this consuming I think that is a problem.
This also seems like the perfect example of why lots of premarital sex and discussion is essential since this seems like something that should have come up(no pun intended).
But even if she won't I don't really buy into the whole idea that an all consuming sexual fetish is that healthy. Fetishes and the like are totally normal, but when they get to the point that they are this consuming I think that is a problem.
This also seems like the perfect example of why lots of premarital sex and discussion is essential since this seems like something that should have come up(no pun intended).
33
@29: To each his own, but being on your hands and knees with your head down and ass in the air is kind of a submissive position, wouldn't you say?
Add a little ass slapping and hair pulling and no question doggy is a power thing.
Add a little ass slapping and hair pulling and no question doggy is a power thing.
34
@seandr: Potato/Pa-tah-to I guess. I guess I try to not ascribe inherent dum/sub roles to most positions.
Spanking IMHO.....well that's pretty hard to be power neutral. Good thing it's too fun to worry about whose in charge.
Spanking IMHO.....well that's pretty hard to be power neutral. Good thing it's too fun to worry about whose in charge.
35
@32, i think that's where our disagreement started. i read it as "i can't do this because my wife's not willing to and unwilling to let me." my primary idea was that she either let him, or joined him. monogamy doesn't have to be breached for either of those situations (well, the joining maybe. let's call that "extending" their monogamy). and like you said, all consuming fetishes aren't healthy. obsessing over something never is. but, as dan's pointed out in previous columns, fetishes become all-consuming fetishes BECAUSE they aren't fulfilled. you don't get to do it, it becomes a larger presence in your mind, etc. so really, the unhealthiest thing, from that perspective, is for them not to fulfill this kink.
36
@7 My guess would be a two-fold answer. First, since men associate cum with feelings of pleasure, they sorta fetishize it. They like to see it when possible.. the volume and consistency are marks of manhood and pride. Second -- and I think the more obvious -- is that shooting it on someone's face is a sign of domination and power in a harmless, yet vivid, demonstration. Shooting on someone's face might be the ultimate "Look what I did!"
37
I have a biological desire to see my semen on (or in) women. This is not completely rational, but I think it's very common.
38
WTF? It wouldn't be cheating if he went to the Lusty Lady and blew his load on the plexiglass divider while fantasizing about the girl laying on her back with her mouth open right next to the window. Right?
Jeeze what is wrong with you people.
Jeeze what is wrong with you people.
39
Dan, your advice is ok here, but could be lots better. Start with a variation of the golden rule: Don't do something to someone else that you wouldn't want done to you. Reverse the situation. What if this guys wife wanted something that he found (rightly or wrongly) disgusting. Assume she was looking for someone to shit on her big tits or something. She could do that without telling him, but how would he feel about that?
Still not sure? I had a co-worker who was in a bit of a similar situation. He was married, but he'd found that he really wanted to give/get a blowjob in an adult theater from a guy. Actually, he'd done it once, but felt a bit guilty and asked me for advice because he felt comfortable asking me (he knew i was gay). Because there is a bit more STD risk in this situation, I had to consider that as well.
Basically, I came down on the side of he shouldn't do it. He and his wife had made a commitment through their marriage vows to be faithful and be monogamous. I told him his desires to do something sexual outside of the marriage aren't necessarily "wrong" to have. I personally think men just really aren't generally wired for monogamy. But acting on those desires would be wrong. His wife gave a vow to be faithful, and he returned that vow. She has an expectation that he will keep that and that she won't be exposed to outside sexual risks no matter how small. If he wants to change the rules, he does have that option. But that change is one that HAS to be discussed with the wife. It's the only adult thing to do. You can argue that they shouldn't make these kind of restrictive vows and that they are unreasonable, but that's a different discussion.
So it comes down to that if he wants to explore this complete infatuation, he has to do it from a position of consent. How he gets that is his choice. If he can't sit down and say "i've been having some thoughts i need to talk about" with her, go to a counselor either alone or with his wife. It probably won't be pretty. That's just tough. And if he's not willing to handle this honestly and as an adult, then guess what? No giving facials for him. Let it go. It's really that simple.
And finally, even assuming that you could guarantee 100% that she would never find out, and he was able to just do it without telling her... HE would know. And holding back that knowledge from his partner is really just sort of a seed of poison (for lack of a better phrase) in his mind. It really would affect how he felt around his wife, and would change how he communicated with her. And that could only be a bad thing.
Hope that helps him. And her.
More...
Still not sure? I had a co-worker who was in a bit of a similar situation. He was married, but he'd found that he really wanted to give/get a blowjob in an adult theater from a guy. Actually, he'd done it once, but felt a bit guilty and asked me for advice because he felt comfortable asking me (he knew i was gay). Because there is a bit more STD risk in this situation, I had to consider that as well.
Basically, I came down on the side of he shouldn't do it. He and his wife had made a commitment through their marriage vows to be faithful and be monogamous. I told him his desires to do something sexual outside of the marriage aren't necessarily "wrong" to have. I personally think men just really aren't generally wired for monogamy. But acting on those desires would be wrong. His wife gave a vow to be faithful, and he returned that vow. She has an expectation that he will keep that and that she won't be exposed to outside sexual risks no matter how small. If he wants to change the rules, he does have that option. But that change is one that HAS to be discussed with the wife. It's the only adult thing to do. You can argue that they shouldn't make these kind of restrictive vows and that they are unreasonable, but that's a different discussion.
So it comes down to that if he wants to explore this complete infatuation, he has to do it from a position of consent. How he gets that is his choice. If he can't sit down and say "i've been having some thoughts i need to talk about" with her, go to a counselor either alone or with his wife. It probably won't be pretty. That's just tough. And if he's not willing to handle this honestly and as an adult, then guess what? No giving facials for him. Let it go. It's really that simple.
And finally, even assuming that you could guarantee 100% that she would never find out, and he was able to just do it without telling her... HE would know. And holding back that knowledge from his partner is really just sort of a seed of poison (for lack of a better phrase) in his mind. It really would affect how he felt around his wife, and would change how he communicated with her. And that could only be a bad thing.
Hope that helps him. And her.
40
My $.02 on doggy-style is that I don't find it to be submissive so much as animalistic. I find getting fucked missionary style on my back to be more submissive, frankly. 'Cuz you know, I'm kinda stuck there.
41
RE: Bethany/Seling.
Can we (you, as the "editor") please forbid the use of the word "yummy"? (She) has far exceeded (her) quota. Give (her) a thesaurus. Make (her) think. Send (her) to school.
Food is a glorious landscape of sensations. Cupcakes are a sweet little scab upon the greater trunk of culinary possibility. Letting (her) suck on it is a mistake.
Can we (you, as the "editor") please forbid the use of the word "yummy"? (She) has far exceeded (her) quota. Give (her) a thesaurus. Make (her) think. Send (her) to school.
Food is a glorious landscape of sensations. Cupcakes are a sweet little scab upon the greater trunk of culinary possibility. Letting (her) suck on it is a mistake.
42
Its cheating. You have a wonderful thing called an imagination. Stroke it alone and imagine. "Going for it" is selfish. We all give up things to be in a relationship. This is not much to give up for the love of a supporting loving spouse.
43
Eek, maybe that's why I find facials so squicky. I'm more of a Dom, so if anyone's gonna be humiliated, it won't be me.
44
Oscar Wilde said it - or wished he'd said it - a fantasy indulged in a fantasy destroyed. Once Bukkake Boi indulges his fantasy, he'll desire to repeat it and in all probability become accustomed to someone's face. Better to utilize a teenager's trick: throw your legs up against the wall, jackoff, cum on your own face - provide mirrors and cameras - lather, rinse, repeat.
45
Before this whole drama occurs in his own head, it is worth an ask to the wife. The worst she can say is no, which puts him back in his current predicament, but if she says yes, problem solved!
47
@35 I think we mostly agree. I mean I think that yeah couples should indulge each other generally.
I am not sure though that indulging really stops the obsession when it reaches an unhealthy level or even that lack of indulgence is the reason for the obsession. Often the experience is never quite what you make it out to be and it just fuels further attempts to reach what is probably unreachable. But is not really here nor there.
I am not sure though that indulging really stops the obsession when it reaches an unhealthy level or even that lack of indulgence is the reason for the obsession. Often the experience is never quite what you make it out to be and it just fuels further attempts to reach what is probably unreachable. But is not really here nor there.
48
Giving a facial is something I never considered doing til this one girl I was with asked for it. I can live without it, and would rather spill my special men in a gina or mouth, but if I get the opportunity, I'm takin it once in awhile.
However, she didn't like it when I wiped off my pillow before I wiped her face, WTF.
However, she didn't like it when I wiped off my pillow before I wiped her face, WTF.
49
The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. Resist it, and your soul grows sick with longing for the things it has forbidden to itself.
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891
50
Dan, your advice is ok here, but could be lots better. Start with a variation of the golden rule: Don't do something to someone else that you wouldn't want done to you. Reverse the situation. What if this guys wife wanted something that he found (rightly or wrongly) disgusting. Assume she was looking for someone to shit on her big tits or something. She could do that without telling him, but how would he feel about that?
Still not sure? I had a co-worker who was in a bit of a similar situation. He was married, but he'd found that he really wanted to give/get a blowjob in an adult theater from a guy. Actually, he'd done it once, but felt a bit guilty and asked me for advice because he felt comfortable asking me (he knew i was gay). Because there is a bit more STD risk in this situation, I had to consider that as well.
Basically, I came down on the side of he shouldn't do it. He and his wife had made a commitment through their marriage vows to be faithful and be monogamous. I told him his desires to do something sexual outside of the marriage aren't necessarily "wrong" to have. I personally think men just really aren't generally wired for monogamy. But acting on those desires would be wrong. His wife gave a vow to be faithful, and he returned that vow. She has an expectation that he will keep that and that she won't be exposed to outside sexual risks no matter how small. If he wants to change the rules, he does have that option. But that change is one that HAS to be discussed with the wife. It's the only adult thing to do. You can argue that they shouldn't make these kind of restrictive vows and that they are unreasonable, but that's a different discussion.
So it comes down to that if he wants to explore this complete infatuation, he has to do it from a position of consent. How he gets that is his choice. If he can't sit down and say "i've been having some thoughts i need to talk about" with her, go to a counselor either alone or with his wife. It probably won't be pretty. That's just tough. And if he's not willing to handle this honestly and as an adult, then guess what? No giving facials for him. Let it go. It's really that simple.
And finally, even assuming that you could guarantee 100% that she would never find out, and he was able to just do it without telling her... HE would know. And holding back that knowledge from his partner is really just sort of a seed of poison (for lack of a better phrase) in his mind. It really would affect how he felt around his wife, and would change how he communicated with her. And that could only be a bad thing.
Hope that helps him. And her.
More...
Still not sure? I had a co-worker who was in a bit of a similar situation. He was married, but he'd found that he really wanted to give/get a blowjob in an adult theater from a guy. Actually, he'd done it once, but felt a bit guilty and asked me for advice because he felt comfortable asking me (he knew i was gay). Because there is a bit more STD risk in this situation, I had to consider that as well.
Basically, I came down on the side of he shouldn't do it. He and his wife had made a commitment through their marriage vows to be faithful and be monogamous. I told him his desires to do something sexual outside of the marriage aren't necessarily "wrong" to have. I personally think men just really aren't generally wired for monogamy. But acting on those desires would be wrong. His wife gave a vow to be faithful, and he returned that vow. She has an expectation that he will keep that and that she won't be exposed to outside sexual risks no matter how small. If he wants to change the rules, he does have that option. But that change is one that HAS to be discussed with the wife. It's the only adult thing to do. You can argue that they shouldn't make these kind of restrictive vows and that they are unreasonable, but that's a different discussion.
So it comes down to that if he wants to explore this complete infatuation, he has to do it from a position of consent. How he gets that is his choice. If he can't sit down and say "i've been having some thoughts i need to talk about" with her, go to a counselor either alone or with his wife. It probably won't be pretty. That's just tough. And if he's not willing to handle this honestly and as an adult, then guess what? No giving facials for him. Let it go. It's really that simple.
And finally, even assuming that you could guarantee 100% that she would never find out, and he was able to just do it without telling her... HE would know. And holding back that knowledge from his partner is really just sort of a seed of poison (for lack of a better phrase) in his mind. It really would affect how he felt around his wife, and would change how he communicated with her. And that could only be a bad thing.
Hope that helps him. And her.
51
@50: What's with the repost? Your comment was overlong and dreary and patronising enough 4 hours earlier. Are you auditioning for "Your Problems Solved (Not Really, But You'll Be So Sick Of Listening To My Preachy Droning, You'll Just Go Top Yourself"?
52
WHEN I CUM ON A LOVER'S FACE, BETWEEN MY LOVER AND ME IS A POWER DYNAMIC ABOUT INTIMACY-- THAT WOMAN DESIRING ME SO MUCH THAT SHE WANTS MY FUCKING SEED ON HER FACE! THAT'S HOT AND THAT'S EXCITING! A WOMAN THAT WANTS ME SO CLOSE THAT SHE WILL TAKE ME IN HER MOUTH IS A HEALTHY IF BIT GRACELESS REPTILE BRAIN PREDILECTION. MY REPTILE BRAIN IS SATISFIED KNOWING I'VE SPREAD MY GENETIC MATERIAL! THE FACT THAT NO CHICK COULD FIND HERSELF IMPREGNATED SWALLOWING SPUNK LET ALONE WIPING IT OUT OF HER EYE LIKE I'M THE FUCKING SANDMAN COULDN'T DETRACT FROM THE DELIGHT I TAKE IN IT. MY REPTILE BRAIN SMACKS HIS HANDS CLEAN LETTING EVERYBODY KNOW WHAT A FINE JOB BEEN DONE. I TAKE JOY TO THE POWER OF TEN FROM BRINGING MY LOVER TO CLIMAX AS MANY TIMES AS I CAN! I DON'T ENJOY DEBASING WOMEN I ENJOY SHARING A BOND BETWEEN MYSELF AND SOMEONE OF AN EQUAL INTELLIGENCE AND GRACE JUST LIKE I DIG SAID BEAUTIFUL WOMAN RIDING MY FACE INCREDIBLY HARD AND DRENCHING ME IN PUSSY JUICE. DOES THAT BALANCE MY KARMIC TRANSGRESSION OR SIMPLY SHOW ME TO BE A BRUTE WHO CAN’T SEE CUMING ON A WOMAN’S FACE SIGNIFIES SOMETHING PROFOUND RELATING TO THE PLIGHT OF WOMEN?
53
Trauma seems to be the key word. She has trauma in her past that keeps him from talking to her. That needs to be fixed. Your relationship/sanity is in trouble if you can't talk.
In the mean time he shouldn't cheat. Fantasies are cultivated. He should consciously pick another one to dwell on.
Facials are not necessarily humiliating. They can be a celebration of sex. It's an act that proclaims how swept up in the moment you are.
In the mean time he shouldn't cheat. Fantasies are cultivated. He should consciously pick another one to dwell on.
Facials are not necessarily humiliating. They can be a celebration of sex. It's an act that proclaims how swept up in the moment you are.
54
I tend to agree with some of the others here that he should not indulge this. From the letter it seems to me that he is looking for permission not just to pop his load on a stranger’s face, but once having tasted this delicious passion, to continue doing it as well. If it were to be a "one time" thing and never happen again it might not be bad, but I am with those who think that it would lead to a very slippery slope for this guy and not a healthy one. Some fantasies should just stay fantasies.
55
CKtM here. Just wanted to say thanks for talking this out on my behalf, and to clear up a couple points:
The gender-neutral pronoun was on purpose, but it wasn't code for "dude". The fact is, the gender of the recipient isn't important to me; I would prefer it be a woman, but as you may suspect, any volunteers I've found on-line have been men.
The "stranger" element is a turn-on, but the key is really that the person desperately WANT the facial (hence the lack of specified gender -- the desire is the key, not the looks/gender/age/whatever of the recipient). If my wife were game (I've tried; she's not, due to a childhood sexual assault that makes me feel like an ass for pressing the issue), that'd be the end of the story, but she suffered through it once, and it didn't go well for either of us. No doubt this is why the thought of doing it right (whatever that means) has become such a potent fantasy.
And finally, for those who think I'm looking for a permission slip to cheat, you got my intent all wrong. That lizard-brain #52 was going on about? Mine's busy telling me this is no big deal, it's just masturbation, do it once and get it out of your system. The rest of me, as I mentioned, thinks of it as cheating. I can't afford therapy, so I figured airing out my issue in a forum where any hang-ups about the act itself are a non-issue and still getting confirmation that it's cheating (as I suspected I would) would help me on my way to putting this behind me. In fact, I wrote Dan rather than head over to the address I'd just been e-mailed from a gentleman who seemed determined to make this fantasy happen.
So yeah. Thanks, all. Guess this one's gonna stay a fantasy.
The gender-neutral pronoun was on purpose, but it wasn't code for "dude". The fact is, the gender of the recipient isn't important to me; I would prefer it be a woman, but as you may suspect, any volunteers I've found on-line have been men.
The "stranger" element is a turn-on, but the key is really that the person desperately WANT the facial (hence the lack of specified gender -- the desire is the key, not the looks/gender/age/whatever of the recipient). If my wife were game (I've tried; she's not, due to a childhood sexual assault that makes me feel like an ass for pressing the issue), that'd be the end of the story, but she suffered through it once, and it didn't go well for either of us. No doubt this is why the thought of doing it right (whatever that means) has become such a potent fantasy.
And finally, for those who think I'm looking for a permission slip to cheat, you got my intent all wrong. That lizard-brain #52 was going on about? Mine's busy telling me this is no big deal, it's just masturbation, do it once and get it out of your system. The rest of me, as I mentioned, thinks of it as cheating. I can't afford therapy, so I figured airing out my issue in a forum where any hang-ups about the act itself are a non-issue and still getting confirmation that it's cheating (as I suspected I would) would help me on my way to putting this behind me. In fact, I wrote Dan rather than head over to the address I'd just been e-mailed from a gentleman who seemed determined to make this fantasy happen.
So yeah. Thanks, all. Guess this one's gonna stay a fantasy.
57
Kind of along the same lines as the "facial" question, but I've had a couple of tops that while banging away, wanted me to open my mouth, so they could dribble some of their spit into my mouth. Not something I've experienced a lot of, but has happened once or twice. I wondered if anybody else has had this happen.
Any ideas why, or is it the same "domination" turn-on for them?
Just asking....
Any ideas why, or is it the same "domination" turn-on for them?
Just asking....
58
@55: You sound like a thoughtful, decent guy. I guess this is obvious, but jerking off to facial porn just isn't gonna do it, is it?
59
@58: Nope. In fact, that's only seemed to make the issue more acute.
I guess the truth of it is, we always want what we can't have. If it weren't this, I'd find something else to obsess about. I just wish this obsession were easier to shake. I love my wife, and don't begrudge her her baggage; in fact, I think the reason this obsession is so pernicious is that it puts her at no risk. Only that's not exactly true, if it ends up a landmine in an otherwise wonderful marriage.
I guess the truth of it is, we always want what we can't have. If it weren't this, I'd find something else to obsess about. I just wish this obsession were easier to shake. I love my wife, and don't begrudge her her baggage; in fact, I think the reason this obsession is so pernicious is that it puts her at no risk. Only that's not exactly true, if it ends up a landmine in an otherwise wonderful marriage.
61
Well now that I've heard a bit more of the situation, this is an easy one. You work your way up to it. First, maybe one out of every five times you have sex, you come on her belly. Do that for six months. Then, one out of five times, start having titty sex and come on her collarbone. Do that for six months. Slowly work your way from her collarbone up her neck. Once you get to her chin, well there you are. Always avoid her eyes.
In all that sex, make sure you make it the hottest sex you can when you come on her, make sure she's super aroused and has great orgasms after. Associate you coming on her skin with great sex and she might rewire her early trauma.
My two cents.
In all that sex, make sure you make it the hottest sex you can when you come on her, make sure she's super aroused and has great orgasms after. Associate you coming on her skin with great sex and she might rewire her early trauma.
My two cents.
63
Re: facials, I don't really like them either (as a woman on the receiving end), not because I think it's humiliating etc. I'm totally into the dom-sub/humiliation thing, but facials are just so freakin' *messy.*
I'm very content with my boyfriend coming on any other part of me (Supplementary question: why aren't guys obsessed with other body parts? Come on ass? Hot! Come on tits? Very hot!), but the thought of come on my chin or getting in the crevices of my nose, my ears, or my eyes, and having to wash it off, is just not for me. I'm quite particular about my face, so I suppose it's a highly personal quirk.
I was on Questionland a little while ago asking about period sex, and lots of commentators gently told me that sometimes perfectly reasonable, open people have irrational lines they draw. This is mine.
@59: Well, you sound like a nice guy. I agree with you (and others) that sometimes we just can't get what we want. I know I have fantasies that will be *very* difficult to achieve with my boyfriend's consent.
However, some of the work-arounds (like @61) sound like they're worth trying out. Maybe your wife will surprise you.
I'm very content with my boyfriend coming on any other part of me (Supplementary question: why aren't guys obsessed with other body parts? Come on ass? Hot! Come on tits? Very hot!), but the thought of come on my chin or getting in the crevices of my nose, my ears, or my eyes, and having to wash it off, is just not for me. I'm quite particular about my face, so I suppose it's a highly personal quirk.
I was on Questionland a little while ago asking about period sex, and lots of commentators gently told me that sometimes perfectly reasonable, open people have irrational lines they draw. This is mine.
@59: Well, you sound like a nice guy. I agree with you (and others) that sometimes we just can't get what we want. I know I have fantasies that will be *very* difficult to achieve with my boyfriend's consent.
However, some of the work-arounds (like @61) sound like they're worth trying out. Maybe your wife will surprise you.
64
@CKtM - you sound like a very decent guy. It's nice that you are willing to let this go because you love your wife. Marriage is about sacrifice.
A61 - you're not listening! They tried it, it ended badly. He's right not to force the issue.
A61 - you're not listening! They tried it, it ended badly. He's right not to force the issue.
65
I am listening. He probably tried it by having her kneeling in front of him and doing it cold, not a gradual up the body over a period of many months thing. People change their minds. Like me and anal, for example--when I was younger that was absolutely off limits, and now I take it up the ass like a pornstar.
67
I've never gotten the wole blowing it in the face. And do girls really like it. The few times I've done it my life, all by accident, I didn't receive any extra pleasure from being privy or causing such a scene.
68
I don't get the attraction of facials, either. I never really minded it when I was younger, but my ex-husband was really into it. Though we had sex all the time, I gave him tons of head and we watched a lot of porn together, I had never really paid attention to the actual moment of ejaculation, until he started getting facial-specific porn.
Something about watching it spurt out totally grossed me out--it reminded me of vomiting, how it comes out in waves. For a while after that, I couldn't even swallow a load, let alone endure a facial.
It took me about 4 years to get to a point where I could stand facials again. They don't really do anything for me, but almost every guy I've ever been with really likes them, so I have to turn off that part of my brain that replays those scenes in order for me to not gross out during a facial.
As it stands now, I no longer equate the spurts of cumming to projectile vomiting, and can watch a guy ejaculate on a towel or on my tits or belly, but I still have to have my eyes tight shut for a facial. Which probably isn't a bad idea, anyhow, for keeping it out of your eyes.
Something about watching it spurt out totally grossed me out--it reminded me of vomiting, how it comes out in waves. For a while after that, I couldn't even swallow a load, let alone endure a facial.
It took me about 4 years to get to a point where I could stand facials again. They don't really do anything for me, but almost every guy I've ever been with really likes them, so I have to turn off that part of my brain that replays those scenes in order for me to not gross out during a facial.
As it stands now, I no longer equate the spurts of cumming to projectile vomiting, and can watch a guy ejaculate on a towel or on my tits or belly, but I still have to have my eyes tight shut for a facial. Which probably isn't a bad idea, anyhow, for keeping it out of your eyes.
69
Could he get his wife's blessing WITHOUT going into the creepy details?
"Hon, there's this sex thing I want to try. It's basically a masturbation fantasy, and I never touch or kiss the person, much less fuck them. It's totally safe. Is it okay if I do it? I don't want to go into the details unless you really want me too, because they'd probably really gross you out and I just would rather not upset you and embarrass myself."
Try it. What the heck.
"Hon, there's this sex thing I want to try. It's basically a masturbation fantasy, and I never touch or kiss the person, much less fuck them. It's totally safe. Is it okay if I do it? I don't want to go into the details unless you really want me too, because they'd probably really gross you out and I just would rather not upset you and embarrass myself."
Try it. What the heck.
71
Thanks for filling in some blanks on your story, CKtM.
You seem like too decent a fellow to let this ruin you. And I think you're right - a (very) reasonable fantasy that just happens to unfortunately intersect with a past assault your wife survived is so unfair.
You're right not to push the acting out of this fantasy *with her*. But I don't think you have to give up on it *at all*. Certainly not without talking to your wife about it. Communication is the main building block of all intimate relationships, is it not? And you're being a decent and reasonable human being about it. You have a sense that getting this particular fantasy fulfilled (rightly by someone else) has the potential for vastly diminishing its importance in your mind. What you're asking her to do is approve a therapeutic pursuit on your part, not authorization to create intimate space with another person.
As a survivor of assault myself, I have to object to the weight we give past bullshit, just because it was terrible shit that happened to us. Something that happened to me is still an event, not a part of me. I don't have to carry that cross any further than I want to. (Certainly, nothing great that's ever happened to me could be expected to trigger happy memories for all eternity. I can similarly diminish the importance of the worst moments too, given enough time and sane supportive partners like you seem to be.)
If someone who was an intimate of mine decided they had to treat me as though I was fragile forever because of something long past, I don't know that I could respect them - or myself - for insisting on being seen that way. Treat your wife like a human being with a past instead of a victim who's irreparably damaged, and see how she responds to that:
"Look, sweetie, I'm really raking myself over the coals for having to bring this up with you, but I need your help. I feel stuck and obsessed with this one thing, and I've been wondering if just acting it out once under circumstances you approve of will bring me back to earth. If I give you total control over all the arrangements and circumstances, would you be willing to grant me permission to try it? If it doesn't work, the ball is back in your court again. If you have a better idea how to get this out of my head, throw it out there. I really want this out of my way so I can leave the obsession behind. And I will so owe you whatever you ask for in return."
Frankly, I'd say yes to any proposal that was put to me this way. Even if the act itself isn't worth a try, the communication part always is. God hates a coward.
More...
You seem like too decent a fellow to let this ruin you. And I think you're right - a (very) reasonable fantasy that just happens to unfortunately intersect with a past assault your wife survived is so unfair.
You're right not to push the acting out of this fantasy *with her*. But I don't think you have to give up on it *at all*. Certainly not without talking to your wife about it. Communication is the main building block of all intimate relationships, is it not? And you're being a decent and reasonable human being about it. You have a sense that getting this particular fantasy fulfilled (rightly by someone else) has the potential for vastly diminishing its importance in your mind. What you're asking her to do is approve a therapeutic pursuit on your part, not authorization to create intimate space with another person.
As a survivor of assault myself, I have to object to the weight we give past bullshit, just because it was terrible shit that happened to us. Something that happened to me is still an event, not a part of me. I don't have to carry that cross any further than I want to. (Certainly, nothing great that's ever happened to me could be expected to trigger happy memories for all eternity. I can similarly diminish the importance of the worst moments too, given enough time and sane supportive partners like you seem to be.)
If someone who was an intimate of mine decided they had to treat me as though I was fragile forever because of something long past, I don't know that I could respect them - or myself - for insisting on being seen that way. Treat your wife like a human being with a past instead of a victim who's irreparably damaged, and see how she responds to that:
"Look, sweetie, I'm really raking myself over the coals for having to bring this up with you, but I need your help. I feel stuck and obsessed with this one thing, and I've been wondering if just acting it out once under circumstances you approve of will bring me back to earth. If I give you total control over all the arrangements and circumstances, would you be willing to grant me permission to try it? If it doesn't work, the ball is back in your court again. If you have a better idea how to get this out of my head, throw it out there. I really want this out of my way so I can leave the obsession behind. And I will so owe you whatever you ask for in return."
Frankly, I'd say yes to any proposal that was put to me this way. Even if the act itself isn't worth a try, the communication part always is. God hates a coward.
72
Dude, you are wise to take a pass on this. Even if you could convince yourself to do just this one thing well once you find someone who agrees to take your load and he does what he describes it will be a big turn on for you. You'll want to do it again. And you will. And the 2nd time or maybe the 4th time or maybe the 9th time the person you are with doing this will say... "hey, maybe I should just suck on that for you first" or some such and then he will suddenly be doing much more "serioius" cheating if there is such a distinction. Come on, it will happen. This is a gateway drug of cheating unless you have AMAZING self control...
As to facials... @26 - what you said. And I'll add to that, if he/she is willing to take it - then for me it shows in a physical way their willingness to own exciting and pleasuring me - not in a demeaning way, but in a "oh yeah, I'm gonna get you off" sorta way.. you know?
As to facials... @26 - what you said. And I'll add to that, if he/she is willing to take it - then for me it shows in a physical way their willingness to own exciting and pleasuring me - not in a demeaning way, but in a "oh yeah, I'm gonna get you off" sorta way.. you know?
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