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News & ArtsFriday, July 17, 2009
Savage Love Savage Love Letter of the Day
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 3:32 PM
Very recently, a good friend of mine with whom I have been having sex with on and off for about a year has told me that he has found religion. To give you more specifics, my friend and I are both into BDSM, I have an open relationship with my boyfriend of two years to allow for outside-relationship kinkiness. Now my fuck friend has decided to be celibate until he can "study up" about what God really thinks about bondage and pre-marital sex.I want to tell my friend that he is being kind of silly. But he's on a kick of trying to be on better terms with Jesus. So far I've only told him that I am supportive and that he can talk to me about anything, but he has made it clear that we can't talk about bondage because of the temptation to slip back into his old ways of beating off to femdom porn on the Interwebs.
No priest or counselor is going to be as open-minded about giving sound advice to the kinksters as you are. I respect your opinion and honestly just need some advice on how to keep a friendship alive. So, should I wait it out and make supportive noises? Or do I tell him that he is being a complete moron and that I won't hold his hand while he is figuring this out?
Kinkster Seeking Guidance
My recent response to a complete moron trying and failing to reconcile his sexuality and his religious beliefs seems to have pissed people off—particularly readers of this blog—so I'm going to turn this one over to the braying (praying?) mob: got any advice for KSG and her on-hold-while-he-gets-right-with-God fuckbuddy, gang? Let her have it in comments.
1
The fun thing about make-beleive is that it can be whatever the fuck you want it to be. Christians believe all sorts of shit and all claim plenty of support. Its not like there is an actual answer to the question of what god or jeebus thinks about bondage so he should just 'pray' get approval, and kink like silly.
2
The fun thing about make-beleive is that it can be whatever the fuck you want it to be. Christians believe all sorts of shit and all claim plenty of support. Its not like there is an actual answer to the question of what god or jeebus thinks about bondage so he should just 'pray' get approval, and kink like silly.
3
You can't do anything about your friend's newfound relationship with Jesus, KSG, so be supportive of him and find someone else to fuck around with. Trying to beat some sense into your friend is only going to make him resent and distrust you. People don't like being told they're complete morons, I"m pretty sure.
4
I think that she should be supportive as a friend, but completely remove the possibility of them ever having sex again, just as a precautionary measure, and be sure to let him know that...and then hit the interwebs to find a new sweet bdsm partner
5
Depends, I guess, on what his particular brand of christianity says. The catholics seem to have found a theological justification for saying that sex is only for procreation, but even then I can't see why BDSM would be excluded if they were still trying to procreate.
So... read your bible and look for things that say "thou shalt not be pegged by thy girlfriend, for it is an abomination in the sight of the Lord;" if it ain't there, then I bet it's okay.
The author of the letter needs to look for a new fuck buddy.
So... read your bible and look for things that say "thou shalt not be pegged by thy girlfriend, for it is an abomination in the sight of the Lord;" if it ain't there, then I bet it's okay.
The author of the letter needs to look for a new fuck buddy.
6
Dan Savage hates black people. That's why he hates Obama. That's why he blames black people for defeating Prop 8 even though it is demonstrably false. He also hates Mormons. He's full of prejudiced hate. And in love with himself.
7
Well KSG, You should inform your friend that Jesus was way into some really, really freaky shit. I mean c'mon.
then, for a larf, tell him that there is no god.
then, for a larf, tell him that there is no god.
8
Jesus would approve. Just remember not to leave a person tied up and unattended; Jesus would not approve of that because it might result in death and Jesus is all about life.
9
Ummm, what's her question really? If this guy is her friend, she should be his friend. But is she really asking whether she's gonna get any from him again? That's what I hear, and the answer is "Maybe, but you don't want it, because the price is too high," being patient while someone figures this out. Why be patient at all---find another kinkster pal while the finding is good.
10
You know when people talk about irreconcilable differences? I think that's just what has happened here. Wish him the best of luck, and tell him that if he changes his mind, he knows where to find you.
And then go find yourself another boy to torture.
And then go find yourself another boy to torture.
11
If you're waiting to see whether the God trip sticks, don't hold your breath. For some, it's a passing fancy: a burst of passion for something new and exciting (to them), and in a few months you'll be back to your old ways with him. For others, finding Jesus marks the beginning of a major change in their habits, behavior and attitude that can last years, possibly a lifetime. You really won't know which camp he falls into until it actually happens; in my experience it's almost impossible to guess or predict that sort of thing.
If there's more to your friendship than just the sex (and you imply that there is), then you'll probably be able to still be friends with the guy, but I'd suggest that you at least start preparing to deal with finding another way to satisfy your kinks. And if he's really interested in studying up, you might want to direct him to the Christians and BDSM website (google it).
If there's more to your friendship than just the sex (and you imply that there is), then you'll probably be able to still be friends with the guy, but I'd suggest that you at least start preparing to deal with finding another way to satisfy your kinks. And if he's really interested in studying up, you might want to direct him to the Christians and BDSM website (google it).
12
Tell him that you loved your sexual relationship with him, but that you don't share his religious beliefs. Then say goodbye. Tell him you'll be glad to see him again some day when/if he gets over his Jebus fixation.
You cannot argue logic of any kind with a religious person. It is a recipe for much unhappiness.
You cannot argue logic of any kind with a religious person. It is a recipe for much unhappiness.
13
the Bible says some discouraging things about extra-marital sex, but it's up to him (or his spiritual advisor, or the internet, of jesus-talking-to-him-in-a-dream) how to interpret that.
For example: does being flogged count as sex? hoe about oral? or being tied up and jerked off?
Really he just needs to come to terms with his religion and sex, in general. I guarantee you, the Bible offers no explicit guidelines on BDSM, femdom or otherwise.
good luck!
For example: does being flogged count as sex? hoe about oral? or being tied up and jerked off?
Really he just needs to come to terms with his religion and sex, in general. I guarantee you, the Bible offers no explicit guidelines on BDSM, femdom or otherwise.
good luck!
14
Bad news for all sides: God doesn't care. If you're not hurting anybody (yourself included) it's ok. Perhaps the friend, however, is looking for a way out of this and taking a break on behalf of Jesus is how he's doing it. Like Dan has said, life is about more than slings, and this friend's conversion may be telling him it's time to get on to more important stuff.
15
Tell him to think of it like self-flagellation (but with other people helping your spirituality), those Opus Dei folks are super kinksters.
16
Any "god" that frowns on people having sex is not worthy of worship. Your friend may be going through some sort stage that he may grow out of eventually. Losing a need for an invisible friend in the sky is a mark of maturity. You have no obligation to enable your friend's delusion. Those of us who are non believers need not defer to the sensibilities (or lack there of) of believers any more than they must defer to ours. They are not in a position of control.
Any self respecting deity would encourage sexuality and the pursuit of physcial pleasure.
Any self respecting deity would encourage sexuality and the pursuit of physcial pleasure.
17
Dear KSG,
Politely DTMFA. Tell him you wish him best on his new found spirituality, and then go find another fuck buddy. Maybe your boyfriend would be willing to tide you over until you find Mr. BDSM-Right
Politely DTMFA. Tell him you wish him best on his new found spirituality, and then go find another fuck buddy. Maybe your boyfriend would be willing to tide you over until you find Mr. BDSM-Right
18
You might suggest some kinky biblically-themed role play? Genesis is replete with filthy fodder.
Realistically though, what #11 said.
Realistically though, what #11 said.
20
Tell him that the idea that his god might prohibit something completely and rationally harmless if done properly should indicate that maybe god is wrong or doesn't exist.
This is why I could never understand homosexuals who still wanted to be good Christians.
This is why I could never understand homosexuals who still wanted to be good Christians.
21
Lose the religion. Your life will be better.
Or simply engage the "a la carte" style of worship which allows you to pick and choose which parts of the Bible you'll follow, while still being able to judge others and condemn them to hell.
Or simply engage the "a la carte" style of worship which allows you to pick and choose which parts of the Bible you'll follow, while still being able to judge others and condemn them to hell.
23
I would say that you shouldn't sugar coat your own feelings on the matter. Have an honest conversation with him, see if you can get to the root of what caused this new found religion kick, give your honest feelings on religion, if you want, there is nothing wrong with that, you are allowed to have an opinion and discuss that opinion with your friend. Just don't attempt to "convince" him of something, or chastise him, just let him know where your "new" relationship stands. Because it certainly will not be like your old relationship. Also place your own boundaries on the relationship. As someone said before let him know that this is the end of your sexual relationship, I would also let him know that you don't want to be preached at. Etc.
There are actually churches in this area that allow people worship and learn about God and Jesus, etc. and do not necessarily pry into a person's personal life or place judgment on them. I would assist him in finding this type of place, support him as a friend, if that is what you choose to do. But also keep in mind that you don't have to hold his hand through this or baby him along or "humor" him. He is a grown up, as are you and you don't have to pretend to support his religious views in order to support your mutual friendship.
There are actually churches in this area that allow people worship and learn about God and Jesus, etc. and do not necessarily pry into a person's personal life or place judgment on them. I would assist him in finding this type of place, support him as a friend, if that is what you choose to do. But also keep in mind that you don't have to hold his hand through this or baby him along or "humor" him. He is a grown up, as are you and you don't have to pretend to support his religious views in order to support your mutual friendship.
24
Tell him you think it would be better if you didn't see each other at all for a while. That way he won't be tempted or whatever-the-fuck and you can have some extra time to get what you need from someone else.
Also: Isn't he torturing himself being around you anyway? He is Pavlov's dog and you are the sexy, sexy bell. Cut him loose, you don't need a reluctant sub.
Your friendship is probably over. You think he's silly (he is, by the way). He will always look down on you for your kink since he's so super pure now.
Maybe he's just playing around? Testing out how dom you are? Order him to take off his pants and see how he reacts.
Also: Isn't he torturing himself being around you anyway? He is Pavlov's dog and you are the sexy, sexy bell. Cut him loose, you don't need a reluctant sub.
Your friendship is probably over. You think he's silly (he is, by the way). He will always look down on you for your kink since he's so super pure now.
Maybe he's just playing around? Testing out how dom you are? Order him to take off his pants and see how he reacts.
25
This happened to me once - kind of, without the kink. Back when I was trying to be straight, I had a girlfriend who became evangelical after we (meaning I) broke it off. We remained friends until shortly after her rebirth. After that, everything she talked about had the tinge of Jesus. You know, "the Lord wants me to do this", and "it will happen if Jesus wills it." That shit always bristled me. It became easier not being friends anymore.
If the guy is seeking religious instruction through any type of organized outfit, none of them are going to support his wicked, wicked past. And they'll make him drink the Kool-Aid. Kiss your friendship goodbye now.
If he's on a personal quest and comes to the conclusion that God and Jesus likes him just the way he is, there may be a bit of hope for the friendship unless he becomes the proverbial Jesus freak. They are - all of them - such bores.
I like trying to be optimistic because my natural tendency runs toward pessimism and cynicism, but whenever the Jesus thing enters a sexual relationship - or even a close friendship - unless both of you are washed in the blood of the lamb (ugh), I don't see much of a future.
If the guy is seeking religious instruction through any type of organized outfit, none of them are going to support his wicked, wicked past. And they'll make him drink the Kool-Aid. Kiss your friendship goodbye now.
If he's on a personal quest and comes to the conclusion that God and Jesus likes him just the way he is, there may be a bit of hope for the friendship unless he becomes the proverbial Jesus freak. They are - all of them - such bores.
I like trying to be optimistic because my natural tendency runs toward pessimism and cynicism, but whenever the Jesus thing enters a sexual relationship - or even a close friendship - unless both of you are washed in the blood of the lamb (ugh), I don't see much of a future.
27
The Bible is plenty full of Master/Slave roleplaying, if the dude can't see that, he's probably not very creative outside of rehashing the club scene.
" @6 nails it.
Posted by A gay brother on July 17, 2009 at 4:02 PM "
Nice to see you talking to yourself. It's not as if you concern trolls are actually concerned about preserving or sticking up for anything. You're sad and cowardly.
" @6 nails it.
Posted by A gay brother on July 17, 2009 at 4:02 PM "
Nice to see you talking to yourself. It's not as if you concern trolls are actually concerned about preserving or sticking up for anything. You're sad and cowardly.
28
Tell him to ditch Jesus and become a Pagan. We're pretty much of the opinion that if you aren't hurting people, do whatever the fuck you want. And we believe in God and everything.
29
@25: This shit happened to me, too. Only with a grad-school officemate, not any kind of lover or kinky fuckbuddy. It was all I could tolerate to hear her xtian friends natter on about how "maybe it was god's will I failed that math class". I can't imagine trying to rekindle an affair with someone newly suffering under that sort of delusion.
30
I'd try having him dress up as a monk while you dress up like a nun.
Just call it "Bible Study" and see if he can focus on the Word of God ...
Just call it "Bible Study" and see if he can focus on the Word of God ...
31
Put on your Dom hat and tell the worthess, sin-filled worm to get down on all fours in front of you and pray to almighty Jebus for forgiveness while you peg his ass with an oversized Satan-shaped strap-on.
If it's religion he wants, just let him have it -- but good!
If it's religion he wants, just let him have it -- but good!
32
I get so tired of people limiting themselves because of the religion, and I pretty much agree with everything he told CAEM that got everyone so worked up.
I'm not an Atheist, but I am deeply suspicious of almost all religions, and I get so very, very tired of having to sit politely while people go on and on about their churches, their faith, etc. etc, etc. But I learned a long time ago that if you express any sort of doubt about what they are gassing on about, Christian Victim Syndrome rears its ugly head, and then you're really in for a lecture.
I'm not an Atheist, but I am deeply suspicious of almost all religions, and I get so very, very tired of having to sit politely while people go on and on about their churches, their faith, etc. etc, etc. But I learned a long time ago that if you express any sort of doubt about what they are gassing on about, Christian Victim Syndrome rears its ugly head, and then you're really in for a lecture.
35
I thought those "Christians" were really into torture. "Passion of the Christ" had all sorts of BDSM. And Lawdy knows, "Christians" have tortured their way through the last two thousand years. Just ask the Jews and Muslims. They even built a church above the dungeons of captured slaves on their way to America. Tell the fukbuddy to get with it, Jeebus loves torture, preferably to the death.
36
KSG,
If this gentleman is truly your friend, and you value him for the person that he is, more than as a BDSM buddy. Then be a true friend. You can listen to him, you can ask thoughtful questions, and be encouraging. Be honest about your feelings on the matter with him (what you believe, how you feel about evangelism, etc.), but then allow him to follow this journey without belittling it.
I'd find a new buddy for BDSM, too. While the Bible has a book filled almost entirely about sex, and not just vanilla sex, Song of Songs (often referred to Solomon's Song of Songs), it doesn't have a chapter fitting this exact situation.
Most of all be the person that you are. To borrow a statement of Dan's, there is a "price of admission" for every human relationship, to really love a person you have to accept each persons core beliefs with respect, you don't have to agree, but you do need to accept them with responsible boundaries. I say this a woman of faith married to a man who is agnostic, and we have made it work for 15 years.
Best wishes.
If this gentleman is truly your friend, and you value him for the person that he is, more than as a BDSM buddy. Then be a true friend. You can listen to him, you can ask thoughtful questions, and be encouraging. Be honest about your feelings on the matter with him (what you believe, how you feel about evangelism, etc.), but then allow him to follow this journey without belittling it.
I'd find a new buddy for BDSM, too. While the Bible has a book filled almost entirely about sex, and not just vanilla sex, Song of Songs (often referred to Solomon's Song of Songs), it doesn't have a chapter fitting this exact situation.
Most of all be the person that you are. To borrow a statement of Dan's, there is a "price of admission" for every human relationship, to really love a person you have to accept each persons core beliefs with respect, you don't have to agree, but you do need to accept them with responsible boundaries. I say this a woman of faith married to a man who is agnostic, and we have made it work for 15 years.
Best wishes.
37
GEt your friend to check out the folowing:
http://www.tomharpur.com/books/books_the…
http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/home.ht…
The first book "The Pagan Christ" i s very useful as it is written by a Christian with a phd in Greek, Aramic and theology. He doesn't destroy the mythical truth of Christ - he merely disposes of the Christian rationale for disapproval of other religions.
Or send your friend to a pagan meeting (all acts of love and pleasure are sacred to the goddess) and/or to a Unitarian Universalist church for more information on spirituality.
And you may be forced to drop the friendship if he has fallen in with fundamentalist Christians as other people have described.
http://www.tomharpur.com/books/books_the…
http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/home.ht…
The first book "The Pagan Christ" i s very useful as it is written by a Christian with a phd in Greek, Aramic and theology. He doesn't destroy the mythical truth of Christ - he merely disposes of the Christian rationale for disapproval of other religions.
Or send your friend to a pagan meeting (all acts of love and pleasure are sacred to the goddess) and/or to a Unitarian Universalist church for more information on spirituality.
And you may be forced to drop the friendship if he has fallen in with fundamentalist Christians as other people have described.
38
Even if he is talking out of his ass, he is a friend and I assume you are not living with him or having children with him. You can still be friends with him even if you are not fucking. His apostasy is his own problem. Let him figure his shit out and get yourself a new playmate.
Down the road, he may get a new kink out of it, but do not wait around for him pining away for what you used to have.
Down the road, he may get a new kink out of it, but do not wait around for him pining away for what you used to have.
39
Hey Kim @ # 36:
What compassionate and loving kind advice: I wish I'd written it! I didn't because I have found that none of my fundamentalist Christian friends accepted me as I came out or revealed any truths about myself. One doesn't talk to me anymore because I have (gasp!) the ultimate perversion on my website: a picture of a naked woman (Madonna on her bike.) You are exceptional - and perhaps KSG's friend will be as well.
What compassionate and loving kind advice: I wish I'd written it! I didn't because I have found that none of my fundamentalist Christian friends accepted me as I came out or revealed any truths about myself. One doesn't talk to me anymore because I have (gasp!) the ultimate perversion on my website: a picture of a naked woman (Madonna on her bike.) You are exceptional - and perhaps KSG's friend will be as well.
40
well.. as a christian male, who's had fuck buddies this is what i think is going to happen.
you guys are gonna fuck again. if he continues to talk to you y'all will end up fucking again.. and it may be very hot .
he's gonna be celibate for a bit , but all that extra masturbation. ( he' gonna be jackin off a LOT ) and porn is gonna wig him out .his newly found christian support system is gonna be ill equipped to talk about his sexual needs and you're gonna be the only person he's will want to talk to. since you're ok with having sex with him ( ..for now..) he will want to and 'backslide'. then he'll get all guilty and finally try to end the friendship because the 'temptation' will be too great. he will be very sad about this but will still enjoy some peace about it. he'll then decide that extra marital relationships are off.. and then he'll decide to vanilla it up to find a suitable partner. when he finds that partner he will spend many frustrating years trying to convince the partner to be a little more kinky, but that partner will refuse. they will have kids. and he will further sublimate his proclivities with the occassional whore and lie to his wife/church group about it and remain deeply closeted for the rest of his life until he gets to heaven .he will never ever forget you. never.
you can be his bemused friend through all of this, enjoying sex with him whenever he stumbles and falls.or you can decide to dtmfa because who wants to hear all of that whining for all those years. but maybe the sex is really hot.. bottom line is you'll still get some but not nearly as much. are you ok with that ?
you guys are gonna fuck again. if he continues to talk to you y'all will end up fucking again.. and it may be very hot .
he's gonna be celibate for a bit , but all that extra masturbation. ( he' gonna be jackin off a LOT ) and porn is gonna wig him out .his newly found christian support system is gonna be ill equipped to talk about his sexual needs and you're gonna be the only person he's will want to talk to. since you're ok with having sex with him ( ..for now..) he will want to and 'backslide'. then he'll get all guilty and finally try to end the friendship because the 'temptation' will be too great. he will be very sad about this but will still enjoy some peace about it. he'll then decide that extra marital relationships are off.. and then he'll decide to vanilla it up to find a suitable partner. when he finds that partner he will spend many frustrating years trying to convince the partner to be a little more kinky, but that partner will refuse. they will have kids. and he will further sublimate his proclivities with the occassional whore and lie to his wife/church group about it and remain deeply closeted for the rest of his life until he gets to heaven .he will never ever forget you. never.
you can be his bemused friend through all of this, enjoying sex with him whenever he stumbles and falls.or you can decide to dtmfa because who wants to hear all of that whining for all those years. but maybe the sex is really hot.. bottom line is you'll still get some but not nearly as much. are you ok with that ?
41
Actually, just continually violate his mandate about not talking about BDSM. Recount tales of your recent exploits at length and in great detail.
If he tries to call you out on it tell him it may not be a part of his life anymore, but it is a part of yours -- and always has been -- and if he wants to remain a true friend he can't pick and choose what parts of your personality he wants to be friends with while excluding others.
If he says he can't be friends with you under those terms, so be it -- kick him loose and never look back.
But if, as I suspect may happen, he keeps coming back for your friendship regardless, then its really the voyeuristic titillation of your Sinful-Lusts-That-Must-Be-Denied accounts that he's looking for from you.
In which case -- KICK HIM LOOSE EVEN FASTER!
He's eventually going to fall off the cross and when he does he'll take his disappointment with himself out on you.
(And, truth be told, deep down he actually knows that already. He's only keeping you in his life so he has someone else to blame for his "worldly desires" when he finally does give in to them.)
If he tries to call you out on it tell him it may not be a part of his life anymore, but it is a part of yours -- and always has been -- and if he wants to remain a true friend he can't pick and choose what parts of your personality he wants to be friends with while excluding others.
If he says he can't be friends with you under those terms, so be it -- kick him loose and never look back.
But if, as I suspect may happen, he keeps coming back for your friendship regardless, then its really the voyeuristic titillation of your Sinful-Lusts-That-Must-Be-Denied accounts that he's looking for from you.
In which case -- KICK HIM LOOSE EVEN FASTER!
He's eventually going to fall off the cross and when he does he'll take his disappointment with himself out on you.
(And, truth be told, deep down he actually knows that already. He's only keeping you in his life so he has someone else to blame for his "worldly desires" when he finally does give in to them.)
42
Kim_in_Portland pretty much handled this but here's my hammered out ramble.
This isn't a madcap drama- what your friend is going through is kind of a big deal but it's not like he just decided to wear salami pants for the rest of his life. You may have to lay off the sex til he gets his bearings, but once he does he may resolve to continue the kink or not and you can choose to find a new buddy or wait for the verdict in the meantime.
Whether he decides to keep fucking you or not, if you're up to it and this is someone you care about, you should continue the friendship. It's really easy for some people to go from zero to crazy if they become completely distrustful of where they were before and the easiest way to avoid that is to continue a positive pre-conversion presence in his life.
While I'm from a more lefty-ish side of the pew that is pro good natured kink, maybe he's just into the whole fire and brimestone thing and has moved on from you to getting his want/need of being controlled from an outside source, in which case, stay friends if you want and immediately fuck somebody else. Just don't freak out on him and don't go knee deep into theological conversations you don't want to be in.
This isn't a madcap drama- what your friend is going through is kind of a big deal but it's not like he just decided to wear salami pants for the rest of his life. You may have to lay off the sex til he gets his bearings, but once he does he may resolve to continue the kink or not and you can choose to find a new buddy or wait for the verdict in the meantime.
Whether he decides to keep fucking you or not, if you're up to it and this is someone you care about, you should continue the friendship. It's really easy for some people to go from zero to crazy if they become completely distrustful of where they were before and the easiest way to avoid that is to continue a positive pre-conversion presence in his life.
While I'm from a more lefty-ish side of the pew that is pro good natured kink, maybe he's just into the whole fire and brimestone thing and has moved on from you to getting his want/need of being controlled from an outside source, in which case, stay friends if you want and immediately fuck somebody else. Just don't freak out on him and don't go knee deep into theological conversations you don't want to be in.
43
Every time Jesus gets in to bed with me and a woman, I just realize he's kinky and likes three ways.
44
@40 totally. that was spot on.
i'm actually surprised his "support" group hasn't said the two of you cannot even hang out anymore. though many born-christians love the sex-guilt-sex-guilt game, the newly born-again may actually try to avoid it. this could be tough on you if you have to "share" the guilt, ie, they get guilty right after the act, or it could be hot because there is even more tension and misbehavior. when you think something is may be a little wrong it suddenly becomes a little naughty....
i'm actually surprised his "support" group hasn't said the two of you cannot even hang out anymore. though many born-christians love the sex-guilt-sex-guilt game, the newly born-again may actually try to avoid it. this could be tough on you if you have to "share" the guilt, ie, they get guilty right after the act, or it could be hot because there is even more tension and misbehavior. when you think something is may be a little wrong it suddenly becomes a little naughty....
46
The one part of this that resonated the most with me is the fact that he refuses to talk about bondage. Perhaps that is frustrating our writer here, because the man in question won't even bring up the subject. She clearly wants to talk to him about it and find out what his dealie is. Perhaps she should be supportive but encourage this friend to express his feelings about the matter with her.
48
@46 - good point. maybe he's being literal (a very common guy thing) and doesn't realize she really has a different question which she won't ask point blank while wacking him on the head ....
49
Theo @ 39,
You're very kind. It breaks my heart that you'd think me exceptional, I know many Christians who I aspire to be more like. I'm a flawed ragamuffin, a work in progress.
I'm sorry to hear about your friends, lack of humor and appreciation for the human body. And, that their hearts were too small to embrace the real you. They'd hate me, I've got a nude woman on the wall of my bedroom, granted it's a Waddell (http://www.themarkolympia.com/gallery/wa…) and it was a wedding present from John and Ruth.
Take care.
You're very kind. It breaks my heart that you'd think me exceptional, I know many Christians who I aspire to be more like. I'm a flawed ragamuffin, a work in progress.
I'm sorry to hear about your friends, lack of humor and appreciation for the human body. And, that their hearts were too small to embrace the real you. They'd hate me, I've got a nude woman on the wall of my bedroom, granted it's a Waddell (http://www.themarkolympia.com/gallery/wa…) and it was a wedding present from John and Ruth.
Take care.
50
The best thing would be for KSG to corrupt its friend. The person already admitted not being sure to be able to resist the temptation. So be the Devil! Tempt! Corrupt! INDULGE!
51
Didn't Jesus say that you were supposed to render onto Caesar what is Caesar's, and render unto your Dom what is your Dom's?
Or something like that?
Or something like that?
52
I generally like to read everyone else's comments before I blurt out my 2 cents, but there are alot of them and it's late over here on the (almost) East Coast, so here goes:
If this dude is your friend and not just your fuckbuddy, stick it out for a bit, but don't put up with any judgemental bullshit. I know this isn't a popular opinion to hold- but my friends tolerate my atheism which is much less popular than their religion in these parts, I am obliged to do the same for them, even though they are wrong.
If he's just your fuckbuddy, well I'd say you'll have to kiss that dude goodbye and find replacement. Even if his jesus kick is short lived it might be awkward after.
So if this actually friendship means something to you, hang in there, just don't expect to get any.
If this dude is your friend and not just your fuckbuddy, stick it out for a bit, but don't put up with any judgemental bullshit. I know this isn't a popular opinion to hold- but my friends tolerate my atheism which is much less popular than their religion in these parts, I am obliged to do the same for them, even though they are wrong.
If he's just your fuckbuddy, well I'd say you'll have to kiss that dude goodbye and find replacement. Even if his jesus kick is short lived it might be awkward after.
So if this actually friendship means something to you, hang in there, just don't expect to get any.
53
Here's what I think: he's going to do what he's going to do. It doesn't matter whether you think it's stupid or not, and it doesn't matter whether you TELL him it's stupid or not. This is his deal, and you have to accept that. If the sex is good enough that you're willing to wait in hopes that he'll decide it's no big deal to Jesus, then wait. If it isn't, move on. This is important to him, so you'll have decide how important he is to you.
54
You go to religion to feel good, inspired, and connected to a larger, spiritual world outside of the petty everyday bullshit.
Celibacy might be part of that everyday bullshit. It's called dogma, and it seems to morph with every different society's interpretation of religion. Ask him why we don't still burn witches, or why Christians eat pork and wear mixed fabrics without anyone objecting.
Give him an ultimatum, explain your logic (that there can be a middle ground with this issue), and then see what happens. If he figures it out, great, if he doesn't see the truth, move on.
Celibacy might be part of that everyday bullshit. It's called dogma, and it seems to morph with every different society's interpretation of religion. Ask him why we don't still burn witches, or why Christians eat pork and wear mixed fabrics without anyone objecting.
Give him an ultimatum, explain your logic (that there can be a middle ground with this issue), and then see what happens. If he figures it out, great, if he doesn't see the truth, move on.
55
I would say to read The Skeptics Annotated Bible, Quran (Koran), and Book of Mormon: http://bit.ly/xuKk1
56
I hope I'm not too late, but:
http://www.sexinchrist.com/submission.ht…
I can't really tell if this is a legit, "here's a way to saddleback everything ever," or a well-meaning skewing that the Bible condones everything but vaginal sex, but either way it could get the writer laid again.
http://www.sexinchrist.com/submission.ht…
I can't really tell if this is a legit, "here's a way to saddleback everything ever," or a well-meaning skewing that the Bible condones everything but vaginal sex, but either way it could get the writer laid again.
58
Here's my thoughts:
1) There are two types of Christians in the world. The first type seriously work on applying their faith to how they live their life and focus a lot of their religious thought inward. These people generally proselytize by being the kinds of people who make great friends to the extent that you want to be more like them. Then there are the Jeebus Freak Assholes. If your friend is the former, then he'll still probably be your friend. If the latter then DTMFA.
2) Setting the religion part aside, I look at self-imposed chastity as a kink in its own right. Consider all of the thinking about sex that goes into consciously not having any sex at all. People who go for chastity can end up being some of the most sex-obsessed folks in the world. So as long as he's not being a dick about his religion, just consider his focus on chastity as a new kink he's exploring.
1) There are two types of Christians in the world. The first type seriously work on applying their faith to how they live their life and focus a lot of their religious thought inward. These people generally proselytize by being the kinds of people who make great friends to the extent that you want to be more like them. Then there are the Jeebus Freak Assholes. If your friend is the former, then he'll still probably be your friend. If the latter then DTMFA.
2) Setting the religion part aside, I look at self-imposed chastity as a kink in its own right. Consider all of the thinking about sex that goes into consciously not having any sex at all. People who go for chastity can end up being some of the most sex-obsessed folks in the world. So as long as he's not being a dick about his religion, just consider his focus on chastity as a new kink he's exploring.
59
First - braying? That's cute Dan. Next time just be honest and call the fools with religion in their life sheep. If you're going to insult them be honest at least, don't do it in a underhanded way that makes you sound like one of them.
Second - To KSG, who says, "honestly just need advice on how to keep a friendship alive". Hearing that tells me she's given up on the idea of having kinky rope sex with this guy, if she's only interested in keeping the friendship she has with him and not the love life. If that is the case, just be polite about his choice. You may not like or agree with his beliefs, but everyone can believe whatever they want. And he may change again, people do that after all. It may not work for him, or it may - whatever he needs to do to sleep at peace at the end of the day. Fact of the matter is if you want a friendship with him then just accept that he's going to so something you may not like. If he tries to convert you and you say no and then he doesn't speak with you, then he was never a friend worth keeping. You will find other people to tie you up, trust me you will. At the end of the day having a real friend is worth more than having a fuck buddy.
Second - To KSG, who says, "honestly just need advice on how to keep a friendship alive". Hearing that tells me she's given up on the idea of having kinky rope sex with this guy, if she's only interested in keeping the friendship she has with him and not the love life. If that is the case, just be polite about his choice. You may not like or agree with his beliefs, but everyone can believe whatever they want. And he may change again, people do that after all. It may not work for him, or it may - whatever he needs to do to sleep at peace at the end of the day. Fact of the matter is if you want a friendship with him then just accept that he's going to so something you may not like. If he tries to convert you and you say no and then he doesn't speak with you, then he was never a friend worth keeping. You will find other people to tie you up, trust me you will. At the end of the day having a real friend is worth more than having a fuck buddy.
60
@36
You have said it so elegantly, i wish I have your fluency and elegance.
as 59 said it so smartly "at the end of the day having a real friend is worth more than a fuck buddy... and this is the price of admission if you ask me
You have said it so elegantly, i wish I have your fluency and elegance.
as 59 said it so smartly "at the end of the day having a real friend is worth more than a fuck buddy... and this is the price of admission if you ask me
61
There's really no need to DTMFA or tell him how you can't deal with him and his religion. He's already dumped you. He's the one calling your sex life off here, in case you hadn't noticed. Deal as you would deal from anyone dumping you, and accept that you can't make them want you back and go find someone else.
62
Depending on how serious he is - or what brand of Christianity he's subscribing to - is what should help you determine where your relationship goes. I was raised in a fundamentalist household, and for a long LONG time every time I had sex I was filled with regret at the thought that I'd let Jesus down. Fundamentalist guilt is SO hard to shake, and if that's the path he's heading down run for the hills. Because not only will you not have sex anymore (and the sex you do have will be full of self-loathing afterwards), he's going to see you as an obstacle standing between him and Jesus.
My best suggestion would be to (gently and respectfully, because any confrontation will be seen as you trying to pry him away from God)remind him that Jesus' message is one of love and tolerance, not closed-mindedness and guilt. Tell him that you'll be there for him while he searches, but that you're not going to wait forever.
My best suggestion would be to (gently and respectfully, because any confrontation will be seen as you trying to pry him away from God)remind him that Jesus' message is one of love and tolerance, not closed-mindedness and guilt. Tell him that you'll be there for him while he searches, but that you're not going to wait forever.
63
Take him to a Genitorturers concert - then tell him he can't get right with
Jesus until he really understands what Jesus went through on the cross.
Take him to a Genitorturers concert - then tell him he can't get right with
Jesus until he really understands what Jesus went through on the cross.
65
It sounds like he's fallen in with the fundies. If he started going to a Unitarian or other liberal congregation he probably wouldn't have decided that certain forms of sexual activity between consenting adults is sinful. Be prepared to listen to a lot of "witnessing", aka proselytizing. If that's a problem, say goodbye.
If, however, his journey is about simply becoming a better person rather than saving the world for Jesus, be supportive and respectful of his choice even if you don't agree with it. You will, of course, need to go elsewhere for sex. But more than ever, he is going to need a voice of reason in his life to provide a reality check against what his new friends at church are telling him about sexuality, science, politics, art, the media, entertainment and just about everything else. If he stops listening and decides that everything that doesn't conform to his world view is of the devil, then by all means DTMFA. But by being a true friend, maybe you can help prevent him from getting sucked in that deeply.
If, however, his journey is about simply becoming a better person rather than saving the world for Jesus, be supportive and respectful of his choice even if you don't agree with it. You will, of course, need to go elsewhere for sex. But more than ever, he is going to need a voice of reason in his life to provide a reality check against what his new friends at church are telling him about sexuality, science, politics, art, the media, entertainment and just about everything else. If he stops listening and decides that everything that doesn't conform to his world view is of the devil, then by all means DTMFA. But by being a true friend, maybe you can help prevent him from getting sucked in that deeply.
66
@59: Sheep don't bray, they baa. Dan wasn't calling his critics sheep, he was calling them jackasses. Christianity is actually quite sheep-positive. The pastor is a shepherd; Jesus the lamb of God. And of course, there's the immortal chorus from Handel's Messiah: "We all like sheep! We all like sheep! We all like sheep... have gone astray-ahay-ahay..."
68
@66 I realized that half an hour later and smacked myself for being that stupid. I apologize to Dan for that over-reaction on my part.
@61 That's also important to consider, but I think KSG kind of knew that already. If not, I'm glad someone thought to bring it up.
@61 That's also important to consider, but I think KSG kind of knew that already. If not, I'm glad someone thought to bring it up.
69
i think it's pretty simple, really. if they're really friends, sex is out the window, deal. but if you're not allowed to talk about bondage/SM, to be fair, i don't think it'd be unreasonable to ask him not to talk about his religion to you (assuming he is.) it's a trade. if he can't not discuss his lord jesus christ, you get to discuss your latest rope-slut encounter. only fair.
70
As a christian and fellow practitioner of BDSM (singletail whips and chain bondage are my favs), I have never had any problem reconciling the two. For one thing, the God I worship cares a lot more about me getting off my fat lazy ass and housing the homeless, fighting oppression, visiting those in prison, and feeding the hungry (all things that Jesus said if you're not doing he doesn't want to hear from you) and said pretty much nada about BDSM.
Beyond that, I and many others find deeply spiritual aspects to BDSM as it involves responsibly taking power, establishing safe space, surrender, vulnerability, and a quest for meaning, however fleeting. As a Top, I look at what I do as shamanistic or even a priestly role. I'm a better christian because of my BDSM, and I'm a better BDSM Top because of my christianity. If there's any kind of an organized BDSM group in your town, I would bet dollars to donuts that there's a subgroup that's devoted to the intersection of BDSM and spirituality. You should have your friend check it out.
Beyond that, I and many others find deeply spiritual aspects to BDSM as it involves responsibly taking power, establishing safe space, surrender, vulnerability, and a quest for meaning, however fleeting. As a Top, I look at what I do as shamanistic or even a priestly role. I'm a better christian because of my BDSM, and I'm a better BDSM Top because of my christianity. If there's any kind of an organized BDSM group in your town, I would bet dollars to donuts that there's a subgroup that's devoted to the intersection of BDSM and spirituality. You should have your friend check it out.
71
Jesus said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Nowhere in that sentence does he rule out that you might both want to tie each other up and do horrible things to each other. As long as that's what you BOTH want, I think Jesus would be fine with it.
Nowhere in that sentence does he rule out that you might both want to tie each other up and do horrible things to each other. As long as that's what you BOTH want, I think Jesus would be fine with it.
72
Whether the BDSM thing is okay or not, we're still talking about lots of pre-marital sex, here. That's a pretty distinct no-no in the eyes of just about every modern Christian church.
73
God didn't stop speaking in 1611 with the completion of the King James version of the bible (though many believe she did).
People with "Christian Victim Syndrome" (Thanks, Catalina Vel-DuRay) still believe the admonitions related sex for procreation only (no "spilling of seed on the ground", etc.).
So, KSG, "make supportive noises" and if you do blurt out the word "moron", be ready to move on and find a new BDSM fuck buddy.
People with "Christian Victim Syndrome" (Thanks, Catalina Vel-DuRay) still believe the admonitions related sex for procreation only (no "spilling of seed on the ground", etc.).
So, KSG, "make supportive noises" and if you do blurt out the word "moron", be ready to move on and find a new BDSM fuck buddy.
74
If you feel like actually talking to him, maybe ask him some probing questions: Why choose the Christian faith when there are other faiths with are pretty silent about kink or have sects that openly embrace sex and kink as part of worship [a la Tantric, or certain pagan circles] What makes Christianity so special? It's pretty new on the "religious" scene. Etc etc.
Then ask why he thinks BDSM would be against his beliefs. Why does he choose to deny himself pleasure in a consensual relationship.
And if he has some real, unshakable reasoning for being Christian, and he finds there are reasons he can't be into his kinks because of whatever reasons, say "see ya,you know where to contact me." and look for a new fuck buddy.
AKA: what everyone else said but with more insight into why he's being a fucking moron.
Then ask why he thinks BDSM would be against his beliefs. Why does he choose to deny himself pleasure in a consensual relationship.
And if he has some real, unshakable reasoning for being Christian, and he finds there are reasons he can't be into his kinks because of whatever reasons, say "see ya,you know where to contact me." and look for a new fuck buddy.
AKA: what everyone else said but with more insight into why he's being a fucking moron.
76
It doesn't sound like she really wants to be friends with this guy. I think she is afraid she is losing him and hoping he'll change his mind, but I think an actual friend would understand that this is a process he obviously needs to go through. I'm no fan of Christiandom, but hey, it's his life.
I would suggest that she offer as much friendship as she can that's actually genuine, and write him off as a fuck-buddy, at least for now. If she can't offer any kind of support without the hope of hooking up again, I'd suggest she move on and wish him well.
I would suggest that she offer as much friendship as she can that's actually genuine, and write him off as a fuck-buddy, at least for now. If she can't offer any kind of support without the hope of hooking up again, I'd suggest she move on and wish him well.
77
I had a gf that turned Jesus freak on me. She said she didn't think it was right any more, even though the Bible doesn't say anything about two women being together being wrong. That was over ten years ago. Don't try to change his mind, it's a waste of time and energy. Find yourself a new fuckbuddy, and leave any reference to sex out of any future conversation with him.
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