Slog
News & ArtsMonday, July 13, 2009
Chow Burning Beast 2009 in Pictures
Posted by Bethany Jean Clement on Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 4:58 PM
The second-annual world’s greatest feast in a field—featuring a dozen Seattle chefs cooking whole beasts over hot coals—happened yesterday.
It only rained a little, and the carnivores' spirits were undampened. A sell-out crowd of 450 people attended, a smashing success for Smoke Farm (the nonprofit haven for artists, philosophers, and other oddballs an hour north of Seattle that was both the site of and the beneficiary of the event).
Eighteen hundred oysters from Taylor Shellfish Farms were grilled, shucked, and eaten. There was more meat that you could shake a stick at, and the main complaint was a happy one: too much food. People were getting full before they'd sampled even half of the burnt beasts available, and there was no vomitorium. As soon-to-be Top Chef competitor Robin Leventhal—who was moonlighting for the oyster prep team and Team Vegetable—said, "When people complained that my portions were too big at Crave, I always said that if that's what their complaint is, that’s not a bad thing…"
Seth Caswell's team spit-roasted a pig; Caswell claimed the woven copper reflector was the pig's alien communicator, but someone else said it was just scrap metal from somebody's garage. In any case, style points. Elsewhere, organizer Tamara Murphy (Brasa, Elliott Bay Cafe) unearthed another pig she'd cooked Hawaiian-style (having gotten up at 3 a.m. to bury it).
Jonathan Sundstrom (Lark), goat, and friends.
More after the jump...
Photos by Duncan Smith.
Team Beef—Tyson Danilson (Le Pichet, pictured with shovel) and Monica Dimas (Spinasse)—had a nice banner and an asado-style vertical spit system inspired by Argentine gauchos (dudes who know their meat).
Gabriel Claycamp rolling his own flatbread. The back of the Swinery's T-shirts say "EVERYONE WANTS OUR MEAT IN THEIR MOUTHS." Stay classy, Gabe!
Bock bock!
Garret Abel's (of DeLaurenti) rabbits were suspended four at a time over four separate fires. The rabbit-meat and -liver bahn mi that resulted was one of the best things to eat ever—but then so was the duck bahn mi made by Team Art of the Table.
Seattle poet Arnie Pihl made the sacrificial beast-pyre (with Tamara Murphy, above) out of Smoke Farm scrap wood. (Its testicles—two stuffed paper bags—were reportedly added by Gabriel Claycamp.) It was burned unceremonially after dinner to all attendants' glee. Bands played, badminton was played, whiskey went around the fire, and there was dancing. All in all, a hell of a good time.
Burning beast!
All photos by Duncan Smith.
3
the Stranger will never be a credible voice of progression as long is it champions the consumption of meat.
You can argue this point all you want, in the meantime, more lives have been ended to fulfill a desire which is no longer necessary to our survival.
It's like the Old Testament of diet or something.
You can argue this point all you want, in the meantime, more lives have been ended to fulfill a desire which is no longer necessary to our survival.
It's like the Old Testament of diet or something.
4
I`m not criticizing you all for what you eat, but too much food? What a waste! I hope all the leftovers got taken home and eaten!
5
@ 3, how about the survival of the species of domesticated animals we consume? What would become of them if people stopped eating meat?
7
Talk about "Old Testament"; you animal rights trolls are the original "happiness is against God's Plan" people. What does "survival" have to do with anything?
9
There's nothing I can say that will change your assertiveness that you need need NEED to eat meat!
What if it were different? What if we were in a different culture in which cats were a delicacy? Would you then raise your arms in protest?
It's all realative. It's all life.
But buy your Prius. Buy your fucking green home with no carbon footprint.
Then go ahead and bring dead animals into it and gnaw on them and feel smug about how progressive you are.
what.ever.
What if it were different? What if we were in a different culture in which cats were a delicacy? Would you then raise your arms in protest?
It's all realative. It's all life.
But buy your Prius. Buy your fucking green home with no carbon footprint.
Then go ahead and bring dead animals into it and gnaw on them and feel smug about how progressive you are.
what.ever.
10
@9, again: what does "need" have to do with anything? I don't NEED to experience sexual pleasure either, nor drink good wine, nor read books or watch films or plays or opera. Music? Totally unnecessary. Frankly, 99% of my clothing is unneeded as well; sackcloth and ashes should be fine. And we could all sleep under some bushes or something, if we really had to.
But we don't.
But we don't.
11
Thank you for addressing my allusion that it is no longer a caloric need, Fnarf. NEED has nothing to do with it.
So is WANT enough to justify eating the life of other beings?
So is WANT enough to justify eating the life of other beings?
12
I don't go to events like this because I don't want to see this shit, and yet is there ever a splayed, dead animal roasting anywhere near Seattle that someone doesn't post a picture of it on Slog.
If you can handle this sort of thing - fine, but must you share with those of us who'd rather not partake?
If you can handle this sort of thing - fine, but must you share with those of us who'd rather not partake?
14
I prayer for the souls of all the dead animals I eat, so I am absolved of my guilt in the eyes of Dog. I mean God.
15
im sorta suprised but i have been thinking about 11's take on this..... why did u feel like posting pix of this and rib cages and stuff????
Is this a macho man thing, like, the ruler of the barbeque being able to roast a whole pig? is it a competition?
idgi
Is this a macho man thing, like, the ruler of the barbeque being able to roast a whole pig? is it a competition?
idgi
17
"So is WANT enough to justify eating the life of other beings?"
I havent figured out how to eat the life yet. I just eat the flesh, but i dont like wasting things so if you can let me know.
I havent figured out how to eat the life yet. I just eat the flesh, but i dont like wasting things so if you can let me know.
19
@11 Yup!
@15 It's a report on an event called Burning Beast, you dingbat. Why shouldn't they take pictures of the food?
@15 It's a report on an event called Burning Beast, you dingbat. Why shouldn't they take pictures of the food?
20
@18
last time i looked, popcorn was still a vegetable. if you got a little more meat in your diet, your thought processes might be a little clearer.
last time i looked, popcorn was still a vegetable. if you got a little more meat in your diet, your thought processes might be a little clearer.
21
And just to chime in on 17 -- so you can disassociate the life that grew the delicious meat that you eat. You really haven't figured out how that was ever alive? Are you conceding that you are THAT ignorant? Like 9 said, I guess there really is nothing that can dissuade you from your justifications.
22
16 -- like you didn't invoke the popcorn because you don't fucking LOVE IT.
I might not eat meat, but I am not stupid, as you would hope that vegetarians are.
I might not eat meat, but I am not stupid, as you would hope that vegetarians are.
23
#11:
Digging up plants is also killing them, even living on the parts of plants that are cruelly ripped off/picked (the equivalent of eating an amputated limb) you are as much a murderer as any carnivore.
Just because you have decided that the suffering of plants is acceptable and the suffering of animals is, not does not make you superiour. It makes you a hypocrite.
We all kill to stay alive, and no matter what we choose to eat we're going to have blood (or sap) on our hands. Enjoy your salad - and I'll enjoy my roast pig, or cat, or human or what-ever.
Digging up plants is also killing them, even living on the parts of plants that are cruelly ripped off/picked (the equivalent of eating an amputated limb) you are as much a murderer as any carnivore.
Just because you have decided that the suffering of plants is acceptable and the suffering of animals is, not does not make you superiour. It makes you a hypocrite.
We all kill to stay alive, and no matter what we choose to eat we're going to have blood (or sap) on our hands. Enjoy your salad - and I'll enjoy my roast pig, or cat, or human or what-ever.
24
FYI: The fact that you people are shitting the bed over meat consumption only increases my enjoyment of flesh. Please, type on about how I'm ruining the Earth. You may want to keep in mind, however, that your complaints will do nothing but encourage my actions and heighten my enjoyment.
25
I want to post the clip of the obnoxious, smelly hippie from the Futurama episode "Problem with Popplers", bragging about how his activist group taught a lion to eat tofu (followed by the sickly lion coughing), but not enough to register.
27
BJC and this post are starting to remind me of all the "pushy" vegetarians/vegans that you all love to complain about. So you are carnivores already. Talk about stooping to their level.
28
23 -- that argument is so rediculously unfair and you know it.
Your cat versus your potted plant.
Puh-leaze.
Like I said, there is nothing I can say that will change your mind about killing for the purpose of eating the flesh of sentient beings.
If comparing them to plants helps you sleep at night on a full stomach of others' life, how am I to convince you otherwise?
Your cat versus your potted plant.
Puh-leaze.
Like I said, there is nothing I can say that will change your mind about killing for the purpose of eating the flesh of sentient beings.
If comparing them to plants helps you sleep at night on a full stomach of others' life, how am I to convince you otherwise?
29
I'm on my second helping of veal stuffed with foie gras, so I'm getting a kick out of these comments.
30
You are deflecting toward my sentence structure now, #22? Does that make you feel more right? More justified? MOAR BETTAR.
31
it's actually been shown scientifically that our brains didn't begin to develop to allow us the complex analytical skills to invent: tools, science, math, art, religion, blah, blah, blah until we began eating meat. had it not been for one of our long departed ancestors grabbing an unguarded, meat flecked bone from some predator that wasn't paying close enough attention we'd likely still be in the trees flinging shit at one another.
it's the long strand proteins, which are only found in flesh, that our brains need to keep it healthy and in top working order.
"But buy your Prius. Buy your fucking green home with no carbon footprint.
Then go ahead and bring dead plants into it and gnaw on them and feel smug about how progressive you are.
what.ever."
it's the long strand proteins, which are only found in flesh, that our brains need to keep it healthy and in top working order.
"But buy your Prius. Buy your fucking green home with no carbon footprint.
Then go ahead and bring dead plants into it and gnaw on them and feel smug about how progressive you are.
what.ever."
32
I stepped on a bug today. Goin' to hell. But then, that's good -- we SHOULD be goin' to hell. Wantin' to go to heaven, why, that's just plain self-centered.
33
@28 It's not that I don't understand where your position comes from. I do, and I simply disagree with the assertion that it's inherently amoral to consume the flesh of other animals simply because we don't NEED to (and I'd argue that if everyone everywhere stopped doing it, there may be food shortages but that's another issue).
What I DON'T understand is the idea that your position is so inherently and inescapably right that anyone who disagrees either hasn't thought it through as well as you or is an evil, ignorant asshole.
Can you at least least describe your ivory tower so I can visualize it?
What I DON'T understand is the idea that your position is so inherently and inescapably right that anyone who disagrees either hasn't thought it through as well as you or is an evil, ignorant asshole.
Can you at least least describe your ivory tower so I can visualize it?
34
You are straw-manning me by purporting and inserting that I believe that anyone who disagrees with me is "an evil, ignorant asshole"
I only wish to challenge the smugness of a progressive claim while feasting on the dead.
Arguments on the internetz will never change your mind, and I conceded that early on. But it is my right and my duty to at least throw it out there.
I only wish to challenge the smugness of a progressive claim while feasting on the dead.
Arguments on the internetz will never change your mind, and I conceded that early on. But it is my right and my duty to at least throw it out there.
36
Fnarf -- are you introducing religion into this now because you can't explain or justify why you would ingest other living creatures in the year 2009?
It's kinda expected from a christian.....but from you? How pathetic.
It's kinda expected from a christian.....but from you? How pathetic.
37
35:
I DO consider it progress that we no longer need to eat the bodies and physicality of other beings that nurture and share our environment. We benefit from the PROGRESS of having multitudes of dietary options.
To choose to eat the living is so Old Testament, as I said in like, comment 3.
It's 2009.
You have 1,000,000 options to nourish yourself. If you choose to eat other beings, that is concerning, and it ABSOLUTELY goes against the progressive nature of all of the amazing options that we now have in the modern age.
I DO consider it progress that we no longer need to eat the bodies and physicality of other beings that nurture and share our environment. We benefit from the PROGRESS of having multitudes of dietary options.
To choose to eat the living is so Old Testament, as I said in like, comment 3.
It's 2009.
You have 1,000,000 options to nourish yourself. If you choose to eat other beings, that is concerning, and it ABSOLUTELY goes against the progressive nature of all of the amazing options that we now have in the modern age.
38
Excuse me vegetarians, combine harvesters (and other crop harvesting equipment) kill more animals per acre than meat eating. Your grain and vegetables are covered in a fine aerosol mist of rodents (not to mention insects and other animals), mainly. Hardly bloodless, smug self-righteous ones.
p.s. For those who argue that our ancestors didn't eat meat and it is un-natural, you are full of it. Chimpanzees and baboons hunt and kill for food too. Apes (and their relatives) aren't gentle, peace loving vegetarians.
p.p.s. Still, I think Americans do eat too much meat and not enough whole grains and vegetables, and factory farming is cruel and unhealthy for both predator and prey, but your self-righteous tone is really off-putting.
p.s. For those who argue that our ancestors didn't eat meat and it is un-natural, you are full of it. Chimpanzees and baboons hunt and kill for food too. Apes (and their relatives) aren't gentle, peace loving vegetarians.
p.p.s. Still, I think Americans do eat too much meat and not enough whole grains and vegetables, and factory farming is cruel and unhealthy for both predator and prey, but your self-righteous tone is really off-putting.
39
@36, I'm "introducing religion", as you put it, not because of MY beliefs but because of yours. You are the ones who sound like scolds and no funs and uptight prigs. You don't know it, because you're uneducated, but your views are the purest expression of Calvinism available in the world today.
@37, I've seen your million options. I probably eat a more varied selection of plant foods than you are even aware exist. The typical vegetarian, on the other hand, eats some of the worst crap in the world. Fake bacon, fake turkey, fake ham, fake sausage, fake hamburger -- these things are INFINITELY more offensive to human decency than bacon, turkey, ham, sausage, even hamburger. They are industrial, corporate, manufactured, plastic, flavorless shit -- the exact opposite in every respect of the meat being cooked on those spits. And for chrissakes, the nut loaf or whatever the hell that muddy brown stuff is -- it's an outrage. People deserve better.
@37, I've seen your million options. I probably eat a more varied selection of plant foods than you are even aware exist. The typical vegetarian, on the other hand, eats some of the worst crap in the world. Fake bacon, fake turkey, fake ham, fake sausage, fake hamburger -- these things are INFINITELY more offensive to human decency than bacon, turkey, ham, sausage, even hamburger. They are industrial, corporate, manufactured, plastic, flavorless shit -- the exact opposite in every respect of the meat being cooked on those spits. And for chrissakes, the nut loaf or whatever the hell that muddy brown stuff is -- it's an outrage. People deserve better.
40
Hey Fnarf, I can't keep track of your backtracking, assertions, and elitisms.
Are you FOR the eating of creatures? AGAINST it in circumstances when they are not good enough for when not served with the proper wine?
You've completely confused your point and I can't really discern what you are trying to convey to us.
Are you FOR the eating of creatures? AGAINST it in circumstances when they are not good enough for when not served with the proper wine?
You've completely confused your point and I can't really discern what you are trying to convey to us.
43
Parker Todd - since you're apparently incapable of following a simple argument, Fnarf was taking issue with the fact that you predicated your disapproval on necessity. Approximately every pleasure in life is "unnecessary", and basing your disapproval on necessity means that you must disapprove of ALL "unnecessary" activities.
If you're coming at this from the deonotological standpoint that all consumption of "sentient" lifeforms is categorically immoral, then you have to admit that those who point out the havoc wreaked at the hands of wheat threshers have your number. If you're saying that the "wrongness" of the consumption of animals depends on where they fall on the sentience continuum, that's at least more coherent, but I would need to hear from you how that isn't an arbitrary standard and why.
If you're coming at this from the deonotological standpoint that all consumption of "sentient" lifeforms is categorically immoral, then you have to admit that those who point out the havoc wreaked at the hands of wheat threshers have your number. If you're saying that the "wrongness" of the consumption of animals depends on where they fall on the sentience continuum, that's at least more coherent, but I would need to hear from you how that isn't an arbitrary standard and why.
44
#40
How dare you place a higher value on animal life than on plant life? Are you enjoying that oxygen you are breathing? I'm willing to bet it didn't come out of your precious cat - and by the way, what does your cat eat? Depending on your answer you are either a hypocrite or guilty of animal cruelty.
How dare you place a higher value on animal life than on plant life? Are you enjoying that oxygen you are breathing? I'm willing to bet it didn't come out of your precious cat - and by the way, what does your cat eat? Depending on your answer you are either a hypocrite or guilty of animal cruelty.
45
Hi. Vegan here.
I don't know, but I'm guessing that those animals came from small local farms and not from Safeway. And I'm guessing that the people who are attending this -- who are actually able to face the reality that they are eating formerly living creatures cuz they're seeing them as whole animals, rather than as shrinkwrapped protein -- are, on average, more conscious about where they get their animal products than most. So, I wish type of thing would happen more often. Assuming that my guesses are correct, it would be a net gain for animal welfare.
The only thing that would be better is if people actually hunted (non-endangered) wild game instead.
Just to add a less-self-righteous-asshole perspective to the whole thing.
I don't know, but I'm guessing that those animals came from small local farms and not from Safeway. And I'm guessing that the people who are attending this -- who are actually able to face the reality that they are eating formerly living creatures cuz they're seeing them as whole animals, rather than as shrinkwrapped protein -- are, on average, more conscious about where they get their animal products than most. So, I wish type of thing would happen more often. Assuming that my guesses are correct, it would be a net gain for animal welfare.
The only thing that would be better is if people actually hunted (non-endangered) wild game instead.
Just to add a less-self-righteous-asshole perspective to the whole thing.
47
45 - are you pro-choice? I have always found that revulsion at the termination of a chicken embryo (egg) does not quite mesh with a permissive attitude towards the termination of a human embryo.
48
oh and Parker Todd, as to your Number 9 post, I find your cultural imperialism offensive. So what if other cultures want to eat cats? Who are you to judge?
49
All the food we consume comes from living beings. Plants and fungus are just as living as cows and chickens. List them as you see fit on their 'consciousness' scale - they are still alive, and hence living beings with their own awareness and consciousness. Is a plants feelings worth less than an animals? Why? I take it we're all supposed to eat rocks and air for sustenance? If it wasn't for the animals we consume we'd have nothing to feed the fields with that grow our plants. Shall we raise our veggies on a diet of petroleum products? The mushrooms you buy are raised in cow manure. No manure, no mushrooms.
Fnarf's right - it has nothing to do with need (altho there's a certain B vitamin only available from animal matter that is essential to our health and survival - people die from it's lack.. Sounds like a need to me!). We evolved as carnivores. Morality comes into play in how we raise and process the meat we consume, not in the consumption itself.
And let me tell you just how many people you are bringing to your side by handing down self-righteous scoldings and moralizing from atop your high horse. Very effective, I'm sure.
Fnarf's right - it has nothing to do with need (altho there's a certain B vitamin only available from animal matter that is essential to our health and survival - people die from it's lack.. Sounds like a need to me!). We evolved as carnivores. Morality comes into play in how we raise and process the meat we consume, not in the consumption itself.
And let me tell you just how many people you are bringing to your side by handing down self-righteous scoldings and moralizing from atop your high horse. Very effective, I'm sure.
50
Just to piss a few people off. I HAVE EATEN the following animals:
horse, whale(3 separate times), sparrow(meat, brains and bones), octopus(about as intelligent as dogs), frog, and fish intestines.
Animals I'd like to eat:
dog, cat, dolphin, alligator, sheep, duck, and many others.
1. The cuteness factor of an animal should have no bearing on whether humans eat them or not.
2. These animals are not pets, they are raised on farms and slaughtered or they are hunted in the wild.
A condescending attitude and a vegan diet makes you just as vile as my condescending attitude and a carniverous diet.
PS. I love tofu.
PPS FUCK YOURSELF IN THE ASS WITH A SWEET POTATO!
horse, whale(3 separate times), sparrow(meat, brains and bones), octopus(about as intelligent as dogs), frog, and fish intestines.
Animals I'd like to eat:
dog, cat, dolphin, alligator, sheep, duck, and many others.
1. The cuteness factor of an animal should have no bearing on whether humans eat them or not.
2. These animals are not pets, they are raised on farms and slaughtered or they are hunted in the wild.
A condescending attitude and a vegan diet makes you just as vile as my condescending attitude and a carniverous diet.
PS. I love tofu.
PPS FUCK YOURSELF IN THE ASS WITH A SWEET POTATO!
51
robot - you haven't eaten duck? I would recommend a well-prepared coriander-cured breast (rare) - it's one of life's most sublime pleasures.
52
I would love for it to be possible for us to slaughter our own animals for our consumption but in this (modern?) world that is simply no longer feasible.
54
@50: You've eaten whale and not duck? You need to rectify that. Duck is amazing, and easy to find.
55
“I think this may be an appropriate moment to say a few words in memory of the animals we’ve slaughtered for our pleasure.”
One of the great NYer cartoons:
http://www.cartoonbank.com/product_detai…
Roast beast can be delicious.
One of the great NYer cartoons:
http://www.cartoonbank.com/product_detai…
Roast beast can be delicious.
57
STRANGER STAFF-ONLY ALERT!!!! DAN'S ON VACATION!!!!! POST ABOUT MEAT, CRITICAL MASS AND ANY STUPID CHARLES POST TO KEEP COMMENTZ UP!!!!!!!
58
@ 45 = well said. Whether you choose to eat veggies only or meat, you should respect where your food comes from.
59
meet meet meet meet meet meet meet meet meet meet meet meet meet meet meet meet fucking meeet porn dead animalzzzz meeat thats what BUFFOONY JEAN TWATCUNT dreamz about all the time iz dead animalz and MEAAAAT she iz soooo hungry to stick meeeet in hur puuzzzy. BUFFOONY JEAN DEAD MEET CLAMCUNT WHORE SLUT SLAG MEEEEET PORT BITCH FUCKFACE JEZEBEL. FUCK YOU YOU FUCKING MEEET BITCH. YOU ARE A SICK FUCKING SAD PATHETIC SLAG BITCH MEET HORE AND ANTHONY BOURDAIN IS NEVER, EVER EVER EVER EVER GOING TO FUCK YOU.
61
First off, I don't have to justify my carnivorism to anyone, least of all some anemic, self-righteous grass-chewer. My canine teeth, enlarged cranial capacity, and ability to digest nutritionally dense animal proteins, fats and cholesterols, along with naturally occuring cyanogenic glycosides found in most staple grains, tells me everything I need to know about the indisputable benefits of eating meat.
Secondly, those of you who carp the most about the so-called "sentience" of lower life forms clearly haven't spent much time in their presence. These animals possess nothing even remotely akin to self-awareness, and at best exhibit the most rudimentary of recognition skills, and, if they're lucky, sufficient long-term memory capacity to not shit all over themselves. For the most part, though, they're about as intelligent as a box of rocks, operating on the most basic levels of instinctual behavior, just enough to be able to remember to eat, drink, and fuck, while pretty much everything else is handled by their autonomic systems.
Yes, they probably feel some basic emotional response to both pleasurable and painful stimuli, but such reaction is a far cry from being proof of intelligence, since such responses are merely the result of physiological alterations of body chemistry, and frequently they are incapable of differentiating between the two states. Every watch a cow or sheep gorge itself on grain until it goes into lactic acidosis? Ever watch turkeys drown themselves in a downpour? Or buck rabbits frenzily mount other bucks during mating season? These are not the actions of intelligent, self-knowledgeable creatures, but rather they are the automatic, instinct-driven responses of brute beasts. Anyone who attempts to anthropomorphize such instinctual responses as being equal to intelligence or self-awareness is simply, willfully ignorant of how biological and instinctual behavioral processes operate in the real world.
But you know, go ahead and continue appealing to the "sentience" of your furry friends; in the end it won't do a lick of good, because they neither understand, appreciate, nor frankly even care about your self-righteous concern.
Which is rather ironic when you think about it - claiming sentience for creatures that themselves are completely and utterly incapable of exhibiting the very quality you have claimed on their behalf.
More...
Secondly, those of you who carp the most about the so-called "sentience" of lower life forms clearly haven't spent much time in their presence. These animals possess nothing even remotely akin to self-awareness, and at best exhibit the most rudimentary of recognition skills, and, if they're lucky, sufficient long-term memory capacity to not shit all over themselves. For the most part, though, they're about as intelligent as a box of rocks, operating on the most basic levels of instinctual behavior, just enough to be able to remember to eat, drink, and fuck, while pretty much everything else is handled by their autonomic systems.
Yes, they probably feel some basic emotional response to both pleasurable and painful stimuli, but such reaction is a far cry from being proof of intelligence, since such responses are merely the result of physiological alterations of body chemistry, and frequently they are incapable of differentiating between the two states. Every watch a cow or sheep gorge itself on grain until it goes into lactic acidosis? Ever watch turkeys drown themselves in a downpour? Or buck rabbits frenzily mount other bucks during mating season? These are not the actions of intelligent, self-knowledgeable creatures, but rather they are the automatic, instinct-driven responses of brute beasts. Anyone who attempts to anthropomorphize such instinctual responses as being equal to intelligence or self-awareness is simply, willfully ignorant of how biological and instinctual behavioral processes operate in the real world.
But you know, go ahead and continue appealing to the "sentience" of your furry friends; in the end it won't do a lick of good, because they neither understand, appreciate, nor frankly even care about your self-righteous concern.
Which is rather ironic when you think about it - claiming sentience for creatures that themselves are completely and utterly incapable of exhibiting the very quality you have claimed on their behalf.
62
Hump treatment: Buffoony Jean kills a bunch of animalz to eet them and iz so turnd on that she masturbaTEZ on top of the animal karkazzes screaming MEAT MEAT MEAT!!!!!! MEAT IN MAH PUSSSAY!!!!! DEAD ANIMULZ!!!!!!!!!! KILL!!!! DED ANIMUL PORN, OH MAH PUSSAY IZ SO SWOLLEN!!!!!
63
@53: Shark fin soup? Pshaw. Come to me when you've cannibalized a human, killed with your bare hands, and I'll be convinced you're a real man!
Seriously, the idiocy on meat-eating side of this thread is spiraling out of control. You've just met the Peta wingnuts full circle.
Seriously, the idiocy on meat-eating side of this thread is spiraling out of control. You've just met the Peta wingnuts full circle.
64
Hi, I am Anthony Bordayn, and I read this "blog", and this slag Buffooony Dzheen Klamkunt seems like a homocidal lunatik to me. She iz too obsessd with the death of animulz. there iz something sik about her and I dzhusst want to say that i'm not going 2 fuck her meeet pussy bkuz it probably iz full of meeet disgust.
65
Just to piss those off who can't handle correctness and the threat to their being.
It's fungi, not fungus.
It's fungi, not fungus.
66
Parker Todd - I have posited multiple substantive responses to you and your points, and that's what you have?
I should rush to add that it is just as fallacious for the omnivorous side (a la 61) to appeal to "natural biological functions" as well. Semen/sperm perform a "natural biological function" in that they are supposed to impregnate, but I don't begrudge gay dudes blowing it on each other's faces. Or asses. Ditto for straight couples.
I should rush to add that it is just as fallacious for the omnivorous side (a la 61) to appeal to "natural biological functions" as well. Semen/sperm perform a "natural biological function" in that they are supposed to impregnate, but I don't begrudge gay dudes blowing it on each other's faces. Or asses. Ditto for straight couples.
67
Pahkoh Dodd, I am posting tingz to yoh commentz but you r not willing to ahgyoo wid mee. Why? I want to have a smaht fight in mah sand box abaout Buffooony Jean Klamkunt. Puhweeez fight wid me.
68
Buffoony Jean Clamcunt
Laughing stock of the Slog
Shoves her gullet full of meat
Sticks in in her pussy
And comes to work reeking of dead flesh
She loves it
It turns her on
The stench of dead meat
Dan Savage makes up a name for her affliction
What is it?
Will he tell?
Laughing stock of the Slog
Shoves her gullet full of meat
Sticks in in her pussy
And comes to work reeking of dead flesh
She loves it
It turns her on
The stench of dead meat
Dan Savage makes up a name for her affliction
What is it?
Will he tell?
69
@47,
Chicken eggs are unfertilized, you dingbat.
Our "canines" evolved to strip leaves off branches. You are also a dingbat, you dingbat.
Chicken eggs are unfertilized, you dingbat.
My canine teeth
Our "canines" evolved to strip leaves off branches. You are also a dingbat, you dingbat.
71
there is no ethical justification for the consumption of meat, nor is there any physical need for it.
so you like it. it tastes good to you. you believe that you need a certain amount of a certain type of protein. blah, blah, blah. it's immoral and cruel and there are no two ways about it.
some farming practices are more barbaric than others, to be sure - but it's all wrong, wrong, wrong. and with the wealth of alternatives available to us now, it simply cannot be justified. no way.
so you like it. it tastes good to you. you believe that you need a certain amount of a certain type of protein. blah, blah, blah. it's immoral and cruel and there are no two ways about it.
some farming practices are more barbaric than others, to be sure - but it's all wrong, wrong, wrong. and with the wealth of alternatives available to us now, it simply cannot be justified. no way.
72
As an attendee of the event, I just wanted to mention the fact that there was some awesome and amazing food. We really enjoyed the Mexican goat stew and fish heads.
And is it me or do Seattle food writers always write about the same 5 celebrated chefs in Seattle?
FYI, most of the animals came from local producers who are passionate and caring farmers who take great care with their animals.
And is it me or do Seattle food writers always write about the same 5 celebrated chefs in Seattle?
FYI, most of the animals came from local producers who are passionate and caring farmers who take great care with their animals.
73
67 is hilarious! I love unregistered comments.
AND, Fnarf is against the killing of songbirds by domestic cats. Don't know if that means anything, but I thought it was semi-relevant.
I like what robot2501 said @50. The cuteness factor is stupid. I've eaten horse (which are generally useless animals). I've eaten cat (I love cats, kinda traumatized me as a kid). I was really excited to eat dolphin... then I found it was just dolphin-fish. Damned Floridians.
AND, Fnarf is against the killing of songbirds by domestic cats. Don't know if that means anything, but I thought it was semi-relevant.
I like what robot2501 said @50. The cuteness factor is stupid. I've eaten horse (which are generally useless animals). I've eaten cat (I love cats, kinda traumatized me as a kid). I was really excited to eat dolphin... then I found it was just dolphin-fish. Damned Floridians.
74
It's a shame to see this discussion deteriorate. It looks as vicious as the liberal v. conservative forums you see on both Foxnews.com and CNN.com. I chose, for myself, to stop eating animal products simply because I read about the conditions of American slaughterhouses. I chose it because I didn't want to participate in the industry. I'm guessing none of you, carnivore or not, like how scary the working conditions are in those slaughterhouses, how little attention is given to the quality of the slaughtered creatures, and the pain that they go through because slaughterhouse bosses expect them to go faster faster faster. In the scheme of things, it's just not that big of a deal for me to avoid meat compared to human and animal danger and suffering in those places.
It's your choice and I applaud choice. I would just ask you all to just look into slaughterhouse conditions.
And definitely try a vegan cupcake sometime! You will be surprised how good vegan baked goods are.
It's your choice and I applaud choice. I would just ask you all to just look into slaughterhouse conditions.
And definitely try a vegan cupcake sometime! You will be surprised how good vegan baked goods are.
75
@69:
One minor detail doesn't invalidate @6's greater point, namely, that human beings have spent some 3+ million years evolving with the help of a meat-protein based diet, one that, as they point out, makes it possible for us to ingest other high-calorie, low nutrition, and decidedly toxic staples, rather than spend the greater part of our waking lives grazing on relatively higher nutrition, but nonetheless low-calorie vegetation. It's that ability to metabolize a combination of dense animal proteins and high-calorie, albeit otherwise toxic grains that gave us the energy to develop higher brain functions in the first place.
Ever wonder why so many vegetarians & vegans suffer from grain-based "allergies"? It's primarily because their over dependence on grain staples creates a toxic buildup of those cyanogenic glycocides @61 mentions; their auto-immune response isn't so much "allergic" as it is their body suffering from being saturated by these dangerous toxins, because they have to consume so much more of these in order to maintain the minimal caloric intake required to maintain proper brain function, which cannot be provided by consumption of vegetables alone - unless one has the time, not to mention the digestive stamina to chew grass for roughly six or seven solid hours a day.
Frankly, I've got better things to do with my life than spend half my waking time grazing at the salad bar. If dining on some dead animal's muscle tissue is going to give me more time, and more energy to do all those other things, then I for one am all in favor of the practice.
One minor detail doesn't invalidate @6's greater point, namely, that human beings have spent some 3+ million years evolving with the help of a meat-protein based diet, one that, as they point out, makes it possible for us to ingest other high-calorie, low nutrition, and decidedly toxic staples, rather than spend the greater part of our waking lives grazing on relatively higher nutrition, but nonetheless low-calorie vegetation. It's that ability to metabolize a combination of dense animal proteins and high-calorie, albeit otherwise toxic grains that gave us the energy to develop higher brain functions in the first place.
Ever wonder why so many vegetarians & vegans suffer from grain-based "allergies"? It's primarily because their over dependence on grain staples creates a toxic buildup of those cyanogenic glycocides @61 mentions; their auto-immune response isn't so much "allergic" as it is their body suffering from being saturated by these dangerous toxins, because they have to consume so much more of these in order to maintain the minimal caloric intake required to maintain proper brain function, which cannot be provided by consumption of vegetables alone - unless one has the time, not to mention the digestive stamina to chew grass for roughly six or seven solid hours a day.
Frankly, I've got better things to do with my life than spend half my waking time grazing at the salad bar. If dining on some dead animal's muscle tissue is going to give me more time, and more energy to do all those other things, then I for one am all in favor of the practice.
76
AR, nearly any egg you purchase will be unfertilized. You can tell when you crack it open - fertilized eggs have what appears to be a drop of blood. (It might really be blood, but I'm not sure.)
Most laying hens are kept away from roosters, so most eggs are unfertilized.
Now, there are a whole host of other animal welfare issues revolving around eggs, even "free range" and "cage free" ones, but that's another issue.
I noticed that Parker Todd and others ignored my question regarding the survival of the species of domesticated animals. It's been argued that cattle, sheep, chicken, etc. developed a symbiotic relationship with humans - we feed, care, and defend them, saving them from an arguable much worse fate in nature, in exchange for the relatively swift death at our hands for our consumption. While that may seem cruel on an individual level, it is a pretty sweet deal on a survival of the species level. Now, most modern for-profit animal husbandry and slaughter is definitely cruel and horrible, but some of you are just saying that, in and of itself, it's wrong to kill animals for food, meaning that it was wrong all those thousands (or tens, or hundreds of thousands) of years ago when humans began eating meat.
Can you rationally refute the symbiotic relationship argument? Can you explain why it was always immoral to eat meat, or if it was not, why it's immoral now? Don't bring up things like sustainability or "if everyone went veggie we'd have tons more food for everyone." One, sustainability doesn't mean "no meat," and two, you still would have all those cattle and sheep to feed (that is, compete with you for food) - unless one final mass slaughter is morally acceptable to you.
Most laying hens are kept away from roosters, so most eggs are unfertilized.
Now, there are a whole host of other animal welfare issues revolving around eggs, even "free range" and "cage free" ones, but that's another issue.
I noticed that Parker Todd and others ignored my question regarding the survival of the species of domesticated animals. It's been argued that cattle, sheep, chicken, etc. developed a symbiotic relationship with humans - we feed, care, and defend them, saving them from an arguable much worse fate in nature, in exchange for the relatively swift death at our hands for our consumption. While that may seem cruel on an individual level, it is a pretty sweet deal on a survival of the species level. Now, most modern for-profit animal husbandry and slaughter is definitely cruel and horrible, but some of you are just saying that, in and of itself, it's wrong to kill animals for food, meaning that it was wrong all those thousands (or tens, or hundreds of thousands) of years ago when humans began eating meat.
Can you rationally refute the symbiotic relationship argument? Can you explain why it was always immoral to eat meat, or if it was not, why it's immoral now? Don't bring up things like sustainability or "if everyone went veggie we'd have tons more food for everyone." One, sustainability doesn't mean "no meat," and two, you still would have all those cattle and sheep to feed (that is, compete with you for food) - unless one final mass slaughter is morally acceptable to you.
77
@ 74, if it makes things easy for you to avoid all meat, and not seek out humanely raised and slaughtered meat, go for it. But you're speaking to a pretty well read, well educated bunch here; don't condescend to us and assume that we don't know about the typical slaughterhouse. I've read literally hundreds of comments right here on SLOG alluding to that very topic. We know.
Robot, @ 50, there are moral issues involved when choosing what meat to eat.Some animals are endangered and should not be eaten. At this point in time that covers a lot of seafood. If you'd rather be a glutton, I can't change that, but that's how you come across.
@ 61, the relative intelligence of animals, which can't be measured by any accepted standard, is poor justification for meat consumption. Stick to things like Comte, AR, Fnarf and I said.
Robot, @ 50, there are moral issues involved when choosing what meat to eat.Some animals are endangered and should not be eaten. At this point in time that covers a lot of seafood. If you'd rather be a glutton, I can't change that, but that's how you come across.
@ 61, the relative intelligence of animals, which can't be measured by any accepted standard, is poor justification for meat consumption. Stick to things like Comte, AR, Fnarf and I said.
78
Lions eat gazelle. Fish eat other fish. Sometime sharks and large predator mammals, (grizzly, and polar bears) feed on humans. People eat other animals. It's as it should be. When you convince all those other animals to stop eating each other, then get back to me.
79
@47
Are you serious? LOL
Yeah, I'm pro-choice. I'm not offended by the "termination" of a chicken embryo (or by the killing of an adult chicken, for that matter), I'm offended by the way chickens are treated in factory farms.
Are you serious? LOL
Yeah, I'm pro-choice. I'm not offended by the "termination" of a chicken embryo (or by the killing of an adult chicken, for that matter), I'm offended by the way chickens are treated in factory farms.
80
@75
I don't know where you're getting your nutrition information, but you might want to consider broader sourcing. Cuz it sure sounds like you're making shit up, or quoting somebody who is.
I don't know where you're getting your nutrition information, but you might want to consider broader sourcing. Cuz it sure sounds like you're making shit up, or quoting somebody who is.
81
75 is living in the Old Testament of human diet, as I mentioned. You meat eaters are SO old school.
YES, we are omnivores. YES, meat helped us get to this point. But YES, we now have the option to not eat that meat. The only reason to eat meat is because you think it is yummy. I get that.
Are you really intellectually arrogant enough to dismiss an array of other foods that could provide to your body the same protein that you claim to need from meat?
Are you arrogant and lazy enough to make claims to science yet ignore modern scientific data that resoundingly agrees we can thrive without meat, even live longer?
Are you bratty enough to rail against corporations yet ingest into your body, into your being, products of corporations loaded with hormones, chemicals, and all the other shit that businesses use to make their products better than the others and more appealing to YOU, the (literal) consumer?
If you are, then there really isn't any point in trying to argue with you.
*shrug*
YES, we are omnivores. YES, meat helped us get to this point. But YES, we now have the option to not eat that meat. The only reason to eat meat is because you think it is yummy. I get that.
Are you really intellectually arrogant enough to dismiss an array of other foods that could provide to your body the same protein that you claim to need from meat?
Are you arrogant and lazy enough to make claims to science yet ignore modern scientific data that resoundingly agrees we can thrive without meat, even live longer?
Are you bratty enough to rail against corporations yet ingest into your body, into your being, products of corporations loaded with hormones, chemicals, and all the other shit that businesses use to make their products better than the others and more appealing to YOU, the (literal) consumer?
If you are, then there really isn't any point in trying to argue with you.
*shrug*
82
Hey 53 - did you check out your source of shark fin soup? Did you know for sure that it was fished legally, and that the fishermen didn't just throw the animal back into the sea, alive, but without fins?
84
Parker Todd: Perhaps veganism will be more attractive to meat-eaters when vegans become more open to "outsiders". The Vegan Meet-up group is one of the most cliquish groups around. If you're deemed unworthy in their eyes, which can be for a variety of reasons, Anthony, the group leader will blackball you out of the group with a number of accusations that simply didn't happen. Ironically, Anthony was run out of Vegetarians of Washington for creepy behavior, but I digress...
85
81 - wow, a string of ad hominems that do nothing more than cloak your lone argument: "If you eat meat, you suck".
you've convinced me, Broseph. Pass the legumes.
you've convinced me, Broseph. Pass the legumes.
86
85: there are no ad homini in 81. Please consult your dictionary and/or argument manual if you believe that addressing claims made on my "argument" are what you call "ad hominems"
88
@80:
It would appear you're confused about the crucial difference between nutritional (e.g. vitamins, minerals, amino acids, et al) and caloric (i.e. energy) intake. As I stated, vegetables are high in nutrition, but low in calories, while grain staples are low nutrition & high calorie. Both nutrients AND calories are required for proper metabolic and cerebral function.
There are a whole host of nutrient-deficiency diseases (beriberi and pellagra, just to name two) that derive specifically from diets which rely too heavily on grain staples; polished rice in the former case, and corn in the latter. Because these staples lack certain essential nutrients (thiamine and niacin respectively), in addition to the aforementioned cyanogenic glycosides, (which, when consumed in large quantities, as is the case in a diet predicated on grain staples rather than meat, convert directly into Hydrogen Cyanide - highly toxic and even deadly in sufficient concentrations), people who rely on them for the bulk of their caloric intake tend to develop these types of deficiency diseases, which, among other major symptoms include: severe neurological dysfunction, dementia, diminished sensory perception, and a whole host of others that directly affect major areas of the cerebral cortex.
Granted, people who have access to a more varied diet can avoid these conditions by consuming other vegetable substances that provide the missing nutrients, but again it still requires eating inordinately large quantities, since the concentrations of these nutrients in vegetable sources is much lower than it is in an equivalent portion from meat sources.
So, while it is true that vegetarians and vegans with sufficient access to highly varied food sources, along with vitamin and mineral supplements, CAN enjoy a nutritionally and calorically balanced diet sufficient to meet at least the minimal requirements to ensure proper physical and mental sustenance and health, this is simply not going to be the case for most of the world's population, which does not have similar access, and who MUST depend on consumption of animal proteins to make up for the imbalances directly relating to limited dietary choices.
In short, veganism/vegetarianism is a luxury available almost exclusively to people in developed nations where the food supply is sufficiently varied and plentiful to compensate for the elimination of animal protein-based nutrients from the diet; but even they are prone to the same sorts of nutritional diseases as populations in the Third World, whose much more limited diets tend to be composed primarily of grain staples containing large concentrations of cyanogenic glycosides.
More...
It would appear you're confused about the crucial difference between nutritional (e.g. vitamins, minerals, amino acids, et al) and caloric (i.e. energy) intake. As I stated, vegetables are high in nutrition, but low in calories, while grain staples are low nutrition & high calorie. Both nutrients AND calories are required for proper metabolic and cerebral function.
There are a whole host of nutrient-deficiency diseases (beriberi and pellagra, just to name two) that derive specifically from diets which rely too heavily on grain staples; polished rice in the former case, and corn in the latter. Because these staples lack certain essential nutrients (thiamine and niacin respectively), in addition to the aforementioned cyanogenic glycosides, (which, when consumed in large quantities, as is the case in a diet predicated on grain staples rather than meat, convert directly into Hydrogen Cyanide - highly toxic and even deadly in sufficient concentrations), people who rely on them for the bulk of their caloric intake tend to develop these types of deficiency diseases, which, among other major symptoms include: severe neurological dysfunction, dementia, diminished sensory perception, and a whole host of others that directly affect major areas of the cerebral cortex.
Granted, people who have access to a more varied diet can avoid these conditions by consuming other vegetable substances that provide the missing nutrients, but again it still requires eating inordinately large quantities, since the concentrations of these nutrients in vegetable sources is much lower than it is in an equivalent portion from meat sources.
So, while it is true that vegetarians and vegans with sufficient access to highly varied food sources, along with vitamin and mineral supplements, CAN enjoy a nutritionally and calorically balanced diet sufficient to meet at least the minimal requirements to ensure proper physical and mental sustenance and health, this is simply not going to be the case for most of the world's population, which does not have similar access, and who MUST depend on consumption of animal proteins to make up for the imbalances directly relating to limited dietary choices.
In short, veganism/vegetarianism is a luxury available almost exclusively to people in developed nations where the food supply is sufficiently varied and plentiful to compensate for the elimination of animal protein-based nutrients from the diet; but even they are prone to the same sorts of nutritional diseases as populations in the Third World, whose much more limited diets tend to be composed primarily of grain staples containing large concentrations of cyanogenic glycosides.
89
So COMTE: you live or work on Cap Hill (we all saw the Stranger interview by Frizelle), in Seattle, in a developed Nation where our food supply is sufficiently varied and plentiful.
Do you eat meat?
If so, what is your reason?
Do you eat meat?
If so, what is your reason?
90
COMTE: nope, you do eat meat. You are one of the lazy fuckers I speak of in 81 and you are one of the sick hypocritical failures that you yourself outline with your own words, although you live in a society which provides you every opporyunity to supply yourself with the nutrition that you need. You do it with meat, and the forfeited life of others, which are delicious to you, to accomplish this.
Sigh.
Sigh.
91
Hey Parker Todd @ 90 & etc- I was a vegetarian, for 6 years. I didn't try to convert others to it. It's not a religion. (Not like I think one should try to convert others to one's religion either, but I digress.) You may have many valid points to be made; do people think about the life they are consuming, health issues, etc. But your sanctimonious, smarmy tone is not going to help convey those points.
Haha, I tried to talk about how I now buy meat from a local farm, & got told I was a self-righteous carnivore in another SLOG thread, so guess ya can't win.
Wish I coulda gone to this gathering, it looks like it was a ton o' fun.
Haha, I tried to talk about how I now buy meat from a local farm, & got told I was a self-righteous carnivore in another SLOG thread, so guess ya can't win.
Wish I coulda gone to this gathering, it looks like it was a ton o' fun.
92
91-- [sarcasm] it is so much fun to light on fire and cook a once-alive fellow being.
With all of our accomplishments, with all of our resources, with all of our capacity to find joy, we find it in the carcass of another creature!! We put it over the fire and we we COOK IT UNTIL WE CAN EAT IT!
Rarrrrrrrw.
With all of our accomplishments, with all of our resources, with all of our capacity to find joy, we find it in the carcass of another creature!! We put it over the fire and we we COOK IT UNTIL WE CAN EAT IT!
Rarrrrrrrw.
93
Eva @91, you're right on the money. I was a vegetarian for 11 years, probably back before our friend Parker here learned to wipe his own ass. I never once tried to "convert" anyone, because to me it was a lifestyle choice, and not a religion. Clearly, though, given the overbearing zealotry that some have displayed here, there are people out there to whom it has become a religion. Sad, really.
94
Eva and 52-80
EAT EM! EAT EM DEAD! KILL AND GET RID OF THOSE STUPID FUCKERS
Eat their muscles! Eat their veins! shut them up.
Those stupid fucking animals are WORTHLESS and need to be eaten.
GEM THEM! KILL AND EAT THOSE STUPID ANIMALS!
EAT EM! EAT EM DEAD! KILL AND GET RID OF THOSE STUPID FUCKERS
Eat their muscles! Eat their veins! shut them up.
Those stupid fucking animals are WORTHLESS and need to be eaten.
GEM THEM! KILL AND EAT THOSE STUPID ANIMALS!
95
Eva and 52-80
EAT EM! EAT EM DEAD! KILL AND GET RID OF THOSE STUPID FUCKERS
Eat their muscles! Eat their veins! shut them up.
Those stupid fucking animals are WORTHLESS and need to be eaten.
KILL THEM AND EAT THEM CASUALLY AT YOUR DINNER PARTY! KILL AND EAT THOSE STUPID ANIMALS!
EAT EM! EAT EM DEAD! KILL AND GET RID OF THOSE STUPID FUCKERS
Eat their muscles! Eat their veins! shut them up.
Those stupid fucking animals are WORTHLESS and need to be eaten.
KILL THEM AND EAT THEM CASUALLY AT YOUR DINNER PARTY! KILL AND EAT THOSE STUPID ANIMALS!
96
Comte Cunty is a nutritionist? Who knew? Not me, 'cuz Comte is a fatty. I would guess he never eated a vegetable in his life.
99
Yes, I do Parker Todd. I eat meat, and I'm not the least bit ashamed of doing so. Heck, I've even killed animals specifically for the purpose of eating them: chopped their little poultry heads off, punched a hole through their bovine brains with a slug-gun, wrung their little rabbity necks, and shot them dead through their deer hearts with a .30-06. I've bled them, gutted them, dressed them, cooked them, and enjoyed numerous meals with friends and families at their expense. I truly appreciate meat in all its myriad, delicious forms; I appreciate what it is and where it comes from, and I will continue to do so for the remainder of my life - which will probably be quite long, since meat-eating and longevity both run in my family.
And evidently you need to pick up a dictionary: there's nothing hypocritical about it my "decision" to be an omnivore (something that, in case you hadn't heard, comes quite naturally to homo sapiens), because I don't CLAIM to disapprove of the practice, while at the same time secretly engaging in that which I condemn. THAT'S the definition of hypocrisy, which in my mind is much more applicable to those of you who consume highly processed vegetable-based products specifically manufactured to look, smell, and taste like meat, while simultaneously wagging your bony, sanctimonious fingers at those of us who exhibit the temerity to eat the real thing.
I'll exhibit a great deal more respect for vegans and vegetarians the moment you lazy fuckers collectively reject your Tofurky, your Morning Star breakfast sausages, your Quorn "chcken" nuggets, your soy cheddar, and your barbeque flavored field roasts.
Until then, you can take your ersatz, fake-meat soy-based textured vegetable protein and shove it where the sun don't shine. If nothing else, maybe it'll help you pass that length of re-bar you've got wedged up there.
More...
And evidently you need to pick up a dictionary: there's nothing hypocritical about it my "decision" to be an omnivore (something that, in case you hadn't heard, comes quite naturally to homo sapiens), because I don't CLAIM to disapprove of the practice, while at the same time secretly engaging in that which I condemn. THAT'S the definition of hypocrisy, which in my mind is much more applicable to those of you who consume highly processed vegetable-based products specifically manufactured to look, smell, and taste like meat, while simultaneously wagging your bony, sanctimonious fingers at those of us who exhibit the temerity to eat the real thing.
I'll exhibit a great deal more respect for vegans and vegetarians the moment you lazy fuckers collectively reject your Tofurky, your Morning Star breakfast sausages, your Quorn "chcken" nuggets, your soy cheddar, and your barbeque flavored field roasts.
Until then, you can take your ersatz, fake-meat soy-based textured vegetable protein and shove it where the sun don't shine. If nothing else, maybe it'll help you pass that length of re-bar you've got wedged up there.
101
Tear apart the animalzzz
Eat their flesh and musclezzz
Kill them beat them slaughter them
Rip the meat from their bonezzz
Oh I am a stupid bitch
I love to kill things and talk about it
I have so many problems in my life
I cover it up with death and decay of
ANIMALZ I LOVE TO KILL ANIMALZ
KILL KILL KILL THE ANIMALZ
I got kicked by a horse, bit by a dog
Stung by a bee, bit by a hog
I fucking HATE ANIMALZ
I want to just kill them all the time
And eat their rotten flesh
ANIMALZ ANIMALZ ANIMALZZZ
Eat their flesh and musclezzz
Kill them beat them slaughter them
Rip the meat from their bonezzz
Oh I am a stupid bitch
I love to kill things and talk about it
I have so many problems in my life
I cover it up with death and decay of
ANIMALZ I LOVE TO KILL ANIMALZ
KILL KILL KILL THE ANIMALZ
I got kicked by a horse, bit by a dog
Stung by a bee, bit by a hog
I fucking HATE ANIMALZ
I want to just kill them all the time
And eat their rotten flesh
ANIMALZ ANIMALZ ANIMALZZZ
102
So far, we have established that the "necessity" argument for moral vegetarianism fails. We have established that the "living beings" argument (because plants live as well) fails. We have established that the mass-production of grain kills animals, and is ergo "immoral" by moral vegetarian standards, and fails for hypocrisy.
I think you're just upset that you cannot articulate anything beyond what you have been told. Your intellectual well runneth dry.
I think you're just upset that you cannot articulate anything beyond what you have been told. Your intellectual well runneth dry.
103
Comte...did it make your dick bigger when you owned, killed, and ended the lives of the following? You can assert your machismo till the day is done, yet any Seattleite worth his or her salt would and will be disgusted by your actions.
Hey aren't you old, still alone, and looking fort love?
It figures.
Hey aren't you old, still alone, and looking fort love?
It figures.
I've even killed animals specifically for the purpose of eating them: chopped their little poultry heads off, punched a hole through their bovine brains with a slug-gun, wrung their little rabbity necks, and shot them dead through their deer hearts with a .30-06. I've bled them, gutted them, dressed them, cooked them, and enjoyed numerous meals with friends and families at their expense
104
Sounds to me that Comte is just in touch with his inner noble savage. Why do you hate the American Indians, Parker Todd? :P
105
Did Comte Cunty mention his weight problem? Didn't think so... but girl has a serious fat issue. Probably 'cuz of the meat.
Oh, and Comte Cunty, that tattoo really really makes you look stupid. Oh well, too late on that one, I guess. At least you could lose a few pounds, fatty.
Oh, and Comte Cunty, that tattoo really really makes you look stupid. Oh well, too late on that one, I guess. At least you could lose a few pounds, fatty.
107
no, I am just mocking you now, that's all. Like I said, you have failed to respond to any substantive argument on the topic, so mockery is all you get.
108
AR:
You think you have found a GOTCHA failure in vegetarianism by noting that plants die when we eat them...
It's like saying "well, even though you have a Prius, it still uses gas! So I don't give a fuck aBout it and I am going to charge around in my Suburban!!!"
It's wrong; it does not work, and it only exposes how stupid you are.
You think you have found a GOTCHA failure in vegetarianism by noting that plants die when we eat them...
It's like saying "well, even though you have a Prius, it still uses gas! So I don't give a fuck aBout it and I am going to charge around in my Suburban!!!"
It's wrong; it does not work, and it only exposes how stupid you are.
109
. . . yet any Seattleite worth his or her salt would and will be disgusted by your actions.
Well, if that were true, I'd say I'm really, really thankful I don't live in Seattle. But, of course, we all know you're just a fucking kook.
110
Fifty-Two-Eighty: You don't even live here? Yet you comment obsessively?
Who's the kook?
I am not at all offended by your admission that you have no relation to the Pacific Northwest yety feel entitled enough to comment on our nature.
Fuck off and please go away.
Who's the kook?
I am not at all offended by your admission that you have no relation to the Pacific Northwest yety feel entitled enough to comment on our nature.
Fuck off and please go away.
111
I still think this post, BJC's obsession with asserting her carnivory and promoting carnivory in general all smack of irony - all three are knee-jerk responses to the "pushy" vegetarian stereotype (aka PETA etc). Why not cool it, proud carnivores, and practice what you preach. Leave people alone to eat what they want (or not want) to eat. And how bout skipping the proud pics of dead animals - I bet there are a lot of non-pushy vegetarians who read Slog who really might not appreciate them. They are the innocent bystanders in the grisly pushy-carnivore v. pushy-vegetarian war.
112
Which Seattlites would those be, exactly? There are roughly 1,000 restaurants in and around the immediate vicinity, of which maybe a dozen are vegan/vegetarian. I think you've got your little group of cud-chewers confused with what in normal parlayance is called "the majority"; you know, the demonstrably larger group of people who DON'T follow your holier-than-thou PETA-inspired "animals are people too!" cult?
But yeah Parker, you got me. I'm an old, lonely, meat-eating hypocrite with penis-envy issues. I have no friends, no one to talk to; the overwhelming mass of righteous, meat-eschewing citizens of this city cross the street (only WITH the light, mind you) to avoid even being in my presence, hidiing the eyes of their Turtle Mountain soysicle sucking children from my very sight, lest they become infected with my bloodlust, and raining down invective and condemnation upon my shame-lowered head like so much rain falling from the sky.
They know my secret shame, that, in point of fact, I got so hot and hard whenever I callously murdered one of those poor, defenseless creatures I immediately dropped trou and fucked them right in their still-bleeding wound-holes, laughing with maniacal glee all the while, until spent and exhausted, I fell back, while the last few trickles of their blood spurted from their severed arteries all over my still engorged member.
And then I ate them.
For this, my most mortal sin, I am condemned to a life of abject ridicule and mortification, my only succor coming from the generosity of the tiny cabal of my fellow meat murderers, as we surreptitiously slink through the deleterious, refuse-strewn back alleys like rabid vermin in search of that lone, unsanctified den of pestilence where we may still partake of our private debauchery unmolested by the rampaging throngs of citizens bent on exacting their wrath and ire upon us for our crimes against nature.
Yep, it's just me against everyone else in Seattle, because I'm just one of what - four or five admitted carnivores still left around these parts?
Man, you as so delusional, if might be funny if it weren't so abjectly pathetic...
More...
But yeah Parker, you got me. I'm an old, lonely, meat-eating hypocrite with penis-envy issues. I have no friends, no one to talk to; the overwhelming mass of righteous, meat-eschewing citizens of this city cross the street (only WITH the light, mind you) to avoid even being in my presence, hidiing the eyes of their Turtle Mountain soysicle sucking children from my very sight, lest they become infected with my bloodlust, and raining down invective and condemnation upon my shame-lowered head like so much rain falling from the sky.
They know my secret shame, that, in point of fact, I got so hot and hard whenever I callously murdered one of those poor, defenseless creatures I immediately dropped trou and fucked them right in their still-bleeding wound-holes, laughing with maniacal glee all the while, until spent and exhausted, I fell back, while the last few trickles of their blood spurted from their severed arteries all over my still engorged member.
And then I ate them.
For this, my most mortal sin, I am condemned to a life of abject ridicule and mortification, my only succor coming from the generosity of the tiny cabal of my fellow meat murderers, as we surreptitiously slink through the deleterious, refuse-strewn back alleys like rabid vermin in search of that lone, unsanctified den of pestilence where we may still partake of our private debauchery unmolested by the rampaging throngs of citizens bent on exacting their wrath and ire upon us for our crimes against nature.
Yep, it's just me against everyone else in Seattle, because I'm just one of what - four or five admitted carnivores still left around these parts?
Man, you as so delusional, if might be funny if it weren't so abjectly pathetic...
113
COMTE: You can write 5 paragraphs if you want to, but it doesn't change your admission at 88.
You are full of lulZ.
You are full of lulZ.
114
@111 amen. BJC's constant promotion of meat consumption makes about as much sense as promoting that everyone drive an SUV and live in a gigantic single-family house in the suburbs. It's also tiresome that she constantly equates all vegetarians with PETA. It's like right-wing Christians equating gay men with NAMBLA. They find the worst possible (and incorrect) correlation and hammer away at it as if it's the truth to make their point. It's really fucking pathetic.
115
Comte's real admission is that he's a fatty and needs to go on one of those reality weight-loss shows. He could be the lonely fat fag with a stupid tattoo of his workplace in an episode of the Biggest Loser.
116
And your point is? I eat meat. Do you need to hear it again?
I. EAT. MEAT.
I don't apologize for it, I don't fell bad about it, I'll do it again and again, and there's not a damned thing you can do about it. In fact, the more you spew your pathetic, puerile, ineffectual vitriol, the more meat I'll eat. So go ahead, keep it up. It will continue to motivate me. Just know that, for every word of inanity that comes out of your mouth or through your keyboard, another animal will be consumed in your name.
I. EAT. MEAT.
I don't apologize for it, I don't fell bad about it, I'll do it again and again, and there's not a damned thing you can do about it. In fact, the more you spew your pathetic, puerile, ineffectual vitriol, the more meat I'll eat. So go ahead, keep it up. It will continue to motivate me. Just know that, for every word of inanity that comes out of your mouth or through your keyboard, another animal will be consumed in your name.
117
Your defensiveness makes you eat meat. You are so weak.
You're saying that you are like an anorexic -- who, when made fun of, will turn to food (MEAT) to comfort oneself.
It's flabbergasting, and you have yet to provided any reason other than spite to eat the flesh over formerly living beings.
HOW UNAPOLOGETIC OF YOU!
You're saying that you are like an anorexic -- who, when made fun of, will turn to food (MEAT) to comfort oneself.
It's flabbergasting, and you have yet to provided any reason other than spite to eat the flesh over formerly living beings.
HOW UNAPOLOGETIC OF YOU!
118
Comte, please go shove several pounds of meat into your gullet in my name. PLEASE. Don't bother to even chew it. Just shove it in your gaping mouth and right down your throat. I WOULD LOVE FOR YOU TO GORGE YOURSELF ON MEAT IN MY NAME. Please keep eating and eating meat, more and more of it, you big fatty.
BTW is that your stomach, or engorged fatty organs in your belly? Fuck you are really, really fat.
BTW is that your stomach, or engorged fatty organs in your belly? Fuck you are really, really fat.
119
Yes, thank you for the expert analysis - now, just let me know where to send the hourly fee.
Ha! I'M the anorexic one? Your typical vegan is so skinny you could snap them in half like a matchstick! And my high energy diet makes me anything BUT weak - most of you grass munchers are so anemic it's a miracle you can slide your bony asses out of bed each morning.
I think I'll name my next beef-locker quarter steer in your honor. I was always told not to name something you're going to kill and eat, but in your case I'll make an exception. In fact, I'll be sure to have the butcher write "Parker Todd" on each white paper wrapped package, just so I can think of you every time I open up one of those delicious frozen steaks and roasts!
Ha! I'M the anorexic one? Your typical vegan is so skinny you could snap them in half like a matchstick! And my high energy diet makes me anything BUT weak - most of you grass munchers are so anemic it's a miracle you can slide your bony asses out of bed each morning.
I think I'll name my next beef-locker quarter steer in your honor. I was always told not to name something you're going to kill and eat, but in your case I'll make an exception. In fact, I'll be sure to have the butcher write "Parker Todd" on each white paper wrapped package, just so I can think of you every time I open up one of those delicious frozen steaks and roasts!
120
Do, it Comte Cunty!!! Go eat more meat!!! Gorge yourself. Suck the flesh from bones and have an orgasm listening to the clatter of bones on the floor. Revel in the grease on your lips. Suck the fat of your fat fingertips. Gnaw the marrow out of crushed bone. Do all of this to make yourself fatter and fatter and fatter. Your pictures on the Internet do you justice, especially the ones where your enormous paunchy belly takes up most of the frame. Eat up, fatty.
121
What a weird thread. I don't eat red meat and haven't for almost 30 years - for reasons which are none of anyone else's business. What anyone else chooses to eat or not eat is not my business, so long as they keep the knives away from me. And I thought the pictures were kind of cool, the event looks fun, and it sort of made me hungry.
Day-um, people waste a lot of fucking time minding everyone else's business.
Day-um, people waste a lot of fucking time minding everyone else's business.
122
LOL, you're the one who eats individual animals to make yourself feel strong.
Yes, I am bigger than you.
Yes, I am healthier than you.
Yes, I am stronger than you.
Do whatever you need to to make yourself feel better about it, but that fact is, you decide to eat meat when you don't even need to.
Attack me all you want, the problem is with you, not with me or us.
Yes, I am bigger than you.
Yes, I am healthier than you.
Yes, I am stronger than you.
Do whatever you need to to make yourself feel better about it, but that fact is, you decide to eat meat when you don't even need to.
Attack me all you want, the problem is with you, not with me or us.
123
People do a lots of things they don't "need" to - I believe your "necessity" argument has already been thoroughly debunked.
Get back to me in thirty or forty years when your brain has been turned to mush from being saturated with hydrogen cyanide, your bones are cracking like kindling from lack of calcium, and your blood work has the consistency of tap water, then talk to me about which of us is healthier and stronger.
But hey, thanks for playing - we'll send you the home version of the game.
Get back to me in thirty or forty years when your brain has been turned to mush from being saturated with hydrogen cyanide, your bones are cracking like kindling from lack of calcium, and your blood work has the consistency of tap water, then talk to me about which of us is healthier and stronger.
But hey, thanks for playing - we'll send you the home version of the game.
124
You see, according to Comte, the people who eat the most meat have the healthiest lives and live the longest. Unfortunately for Cunte, science has proven that wrong. But then Cunte doesn't know the first thing about amino acids or plant sources of calcium. So gobble up, fatty. Eat more meat, eat all you like. Stuff yourself full and then go waddle around your "theater". Or is it "theatre"? You fatties are so uptight about those kinds of things. Waddle, waddle, waddle.
125
@Parker Todd
Vitamin B12 deficiency is a problem when cutting all animal products out of the diet. How long have you been a vegan? About 80% of people who have been vegan for two or more years are B12 deficient. The body recycles as much B12 as it can when not getting enough, but this process can not be sustained for very long since it is a water-soluble vitamin. I'd say that the vitamin that helps synthesize new blood cells is pretty important to human life.
You're not thin because you're healthy, you're thin because you have pernicious anemia.
If you're not taking a supplement, you should be. There is no natural source of B12 in the plant world.
Vitamin B12 deficiency is a problem when cutting all animal products out of the diet. How long have you been a vegan? About 80% of people who have been vegan for two or more years are B12 deficient. The body recycles as much B12 as it can when not getting enough, but this process can not be sustained for very long since it is a water-soluble vitamin. I'd say that the vitamin that helps synthesize new blood cells is pretty important to human life.
You're not thin because you're healthy, you're thin because you have pernicious anemia.
If you're not taking a supplement, you should be. There is no natural source of B12 in the plant world.
126
125: Do you think I don't know where to get vB12? Is that all that you have to go off of? Lying that B12 is, like, this magical thing only available in meat?
It's in the soy milk I had with my cereal this morning. It's in that very cereal that I had too.
It is so disingenuous of you to claim to have been a vegan yet remain clueless about how to easily supplement your diet.
It's in the soy milk I had with my cereal this morning. It's in that very cereal that I had too.
It is so disingenuous of you to claim to have been a vegan yet remain clueless about how to easily supplement your diet.
128
the cereal: 1 serving- Vitamin B12 - 35% (of the recommended daily allowance)
the soy milk: 1 serving -Vitamin B12 - 50% (of the recommended daily allowance), and I chugg it.
You're pathetic, 125.
the soy milk: 1 serving -Vitamin B12 - 50% (of the recommended daily allowance), and I chugg it.
You're pathetic, 125.
129
127 - I answered your question in a statement I made in 108
It's like saying "well, even though you have a Prius, it still uses gas! So I don't give a fuck aBout it and I am going to charge around in my Suburban!!!"
It's wrong; it does not work, and it only exposes how stupid you are.
There is no failure when attempting to diminish your impact on killing stuff. The only failure is being arrogant enough to disregard and mock that attempt.
It's like saying "well, even though you have a Prius, it still uses gas! So I don't give a fuck aBout it and I am going to charge around in my Suburban!!!"
It's wrong; it does not work, and it only exposes how stupid you are.
There is no failure when attempting to diminish your impact on killing stuff. The only failure is being arrogant enough to disregard and mock that attempt.
131
Matt -- what do you want to hear? Do you want to hear that since sheep, like, depend on us to kill them, we can go ahead and kill to eat a bunch of other stuff?
You think that because you have this purported example of "symbiosis" which you don't support with any literature or fact, all meat is fair game?
What is wrong with you?
You think that because you have this purported example of "symbiosis" which you don't support with any literature or fact, all meat is fair game?
What is wrong with you?
133
Whoops, didn't mean to just leave off with that. Let me ask you this: What is to become of the world's population of cattle, sheep, chickens, and other domesticated meat animals if we were all to go vegetarian? Do you have a vision for that? Because you're absolutely what Fnarf said you were if you don't.
134
133 - they wouldn't be killed and eaten?
Are you saying that Humanity would be overrun by domesticated animals if we set 'em loose? You are making claims to a bigger picture in which we couldn't handle this if it were ever to be a reality? I kinda have a little more faith in modernity than you, I guess.
Don't be foolish. Not everyone in the world will suddenly go vegetarian...this problem would never be a reality.
Is this astonishing abstract scenario enough justification for YOU to eat meat? Sounds like it.
Are you saying that Humanity would be overrun by domesticated animals if we set 'em loose? You are making claims to a bigger picture in which we couldn't handle this if it were ever to be a reality? I kinda have a little more faith in modernity than you, I guess.
Don't be foolish. Not everyone in the world will suddenly go vegetarian...this problem would never be a reality.
Is this astonishing abstract scenario enough justification for YOU to eat meat? Sounds like it.
135
No, I'm saying that they'd suffer.
Where are these animals going to live? No one is going to keep feeding them. They're not pets. And actually, since they would become competitors for food resources (which they aren't now, since they're food themselves), yeah, they could overrun us. I'd expect that the "modern" solution you allude to would actually be their mass slaughter, sort of how we treat other "nuisance" animals.
But, at least you're realistic about the world not going veggie. It basically invalidates your entire crusade here, but at least I'll give you credit where credit is due.
As for me, my justification for eating meat is that it's natural, and natural is right. We take care of these animals; we feed them, protect them from other predators, and give them a much better life than they'd get in the wild. In return, we get to eat them. They're prey animals, after all - they exist to support predators. This is a good deal for them, from a survival of the species point of view.
Now, go read up on this and get educated. I'll leave you to have the last word; you obviously need it, for some reason.
Where are these animals going to live? No one is going to keep feeding them. They're not pets. And actually, since they would become competitors for food resources (which they aren't now, since they're food themselves), yeah, they could overrun us. I'd expect that the "modern" solution you allude to would actually be their mass slaughter, sort of how we treat other "nuisance" animals.
But, at least you're realistic about the world not going veggie. It basically invalidates your entire crusade here, but at least I'll give you credit where credit is due.
As for me, my justification for eating meat is that it's natural, and natural is right. We take care of these animals; we feed them, protect them from other predators, and give them a much better life than they'd get in the wild. In return, we get to eat them. They're prey animals, after all - they exist to support predators. This is a good deal for them, from a survival of the species point of view.
Now, go read up on this and get educated. I'll leave you to have the last word; you obviously need it, for some reason.
137
Parker Todd, let me lend you my vote. I'm a little embarrassed that this "progressive" Seattle paper has so little for you (support, I mean). I hope I'm not alone in feeling this way. My friends certainly have a better view of things than do the majority of these knee-slurping fucknecks.
[for the record, I'm not vegan -- not even close. I chomp on the ribs of others, but only because I'm a lazy fuck. some day, I'll get my shit together, and then will commit myself to my principles]
[for the record, I'm not vegan -- not even close. I chomp on the ribs of others, but only because I'm a lazy fuck. some day, I'll get my shit together, and then will commit myself to my principles]
138
If your soy milk & cereal has vitamin b12 it's because it's been fortified, pssst ...from animal products.
From the Vegetarian Society:
From the Vegetarian Society:
Dietary Sources
The only reliable unfortified sources of vitamin B12 are meat, dairy products and eggs. There has been considerable research into possible plant food sources of B12. Fermented soya products, seaweeds and algae have all been proposed as possible sources of B12. However, analysis of fermented soya products, including tempeh, miso, shoyu and tamari, found no significant B12.
http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html
139
@138, the B12 used to fortify foods is a synthetic form, cyanocobalamin, that is not animal-sourced. Actually, animals themselves do not produce B12; it is rather bacteria that synthesizes this vitamin. In many animals this bacteria is found in the digestive tract. Animals are able to store large amounts of B12, which can then be consumed by humans through eating meat. However, with the miracle of modern science, consumption of meat and animal products is not required to maintain an adequate level of B12 in the human body. The information you quote above refers to whole-food *unfortified* sources of B12, and it is correct that there are no non-animal products which contain adequate, reliable and nutritionally-available sources of B12 for human consumption. However, B12-*fortified* foods are made with a synthetic, non-animal based vitamin, so your assertion is completely incorrect. Have a nice day.
140
139, Of course you'll provide links to credible sources that, soy milk and cereal with vitamin B12 (if there are any that actually have it) get it from synthetic sources, and that synthetic vitamin B12, yum, and so natural and organic, is a healthy alternative.
Here's the nutritional data for soy milk: http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/legum…
Note that no V B12 is contained.
I'm a vegan, I pump myself full of synthetic vitamins!!!
Here's the nutritional data for soy milk: http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/legum…
Note that no V B12 is contained.
I'm a vegan, I pump myself full of synthetic vitamins!!!
141
Vegetarianism was a fashion trend of the 90s to my dismay.
I don't have a problem with meat consumption, I do have one with the meat industry.
I also have a problem when I order vegetarian dishes at restaurants and find meat in my food. Of course I'm always polite to the waiter who served it but I won't eat it or pay for it. It's not what I fucking ordered.
I'd like to add that being a healthy vegetarian is totally possible. My children have been raised that way and are in excellent shape, but they are also genetically superior thanks to my and my wife's fantastic genes.
Being a healthy and strong vegetarian is totally possible but it takes a lot more work (especially in this meat obsessed society). I am stronger than most people I meet but I am lazy about cooking for myself and do consume too many whey protein and peanut butter milkshakes.
Eating animals just ain't my thing but I do wear leather boots (and assless chap every day), so I'm a hypocrite.
I don't have a problem with meat consumption, I do have one with the meat industry.
I also have a problem when I order vegetarian dishes at restaurants and find meat in my food. Of course I'm always polite to the waiter who served it but I won't eat it or pay for it. It's not what I fucking ordered.
I'd like to add that being a healthy vegetarian is totally possible. My children have been raised that way and are in excellent shape, but they are also genetically superior thanks to my and my wife's fantastic genes.
Being a healthy and strong vegetarian is totally possible but it takes a lot more work (especially in this meat obsessed society). I am stronger than most people I meet but I am lazy about cooking for myself and do consume too many whey protein and peanut butter milkshakes.
Eating animals just ain't my thing but I do wear leather boots (and assless chap every day), so I'm a hypocrite.
142
Rob -- 139 posted anonymously and so a link wouldn't have worked anyway.
You first assert that any B12 only comes from animals, which you were wrong about. It can be synthesized. When that attack fell apart, your next try was to try to humiliate those who don't eat meat but yes, consume a synthetic version of it? Fail.
The link you provided is an internetz account of what Soy Milk has in it, NOT the label I looked at in front of my refrigerator. But you know it all, don't you? What the label on my milk says? That just speaks to the infalibility of your argument and thus the time we are wasting here.
http://caloriecount.about.com/calories-w… (click see more)
That actually has it.
It is synthesized, fine.
I'm a lazy meat eater, I pump myself full of hormones and chemicals that aren't even required to be disclosed or announced on packaging!!
You first assert that any B12 only comes from animals, which you were wrong about. It can be synthesized. When that attack fell apart, your next try was to try to humiliate those who don't eat meat but yes, consume a synthetic version of it? Fail.
The link you provided is an internetz account of what Soy Milk has in it, NOT the label I looked at in front of my refrigerator. But you know it all, don't you? What the label on my milk says? That just speaks to the infalibility of your argument and thus the time we are wasting here.
http://caloriecount.about.com/calories-w… (click see more)
That actually has it.
It is synthesized, fine.
I'm a lazy meat eater, I pump myself full of hormones and chemicals that aren't even required to be disclosed or announced on packaging!!
143
Last word on Matt in Denver --
If you are going to invoke the Omnivore's Dilemma, then surely you know there's nothing natural about the meat you eat, toots.
Never in our history have humans dined on animals fed a total diet of corn (and genetically modified corn, with patents and shit, at that!).
Goodbye.
If you are going to invoke the Omnivore's Dilemma, then surely you know there's nothing natural about the meat you eat, toots.
Never in our history have humans dined on animals fed a total diet of corn (and genetically modified corn, with patents and shit, at that!).
Goodbye.
144
142, Your link doesn't give the source of the B12. (I bet it's extracted from a dairy or egg product.) Nor does it provide the effectiveness of artificial B12.
The meat I buy comes from a local farm. It's not full of chemicals or hormones, but it is delicious!
You're leaving? Buh bye.
The meat I buy comes from a local farm. It's not full of chemicals or hormones, but it is delicious!
You're leaving? Buh bye.
145
Rob -- I never even claimed to be a vegan, so even if it is rendered from egg (when, why would it?) this doesn't poke holes in or negate anything I've said.
But you're right, you think the meat is delicious, and your selfish need trumps that of other living things.
FURTHER,
Do you only eat meat that you purchased and prepared in your own home?
No.
I was saying goodbye to Matt.
But you're right, you think the meat is delicious, and your selfish need trumps that of other living things.
FURTHER,
Do you only eat meat that you purchased and prepared in your own home?
No.
I was saying goodbye to Matt.
146
Okay, so in your view, it's find to use animals for their eggs and milk, but not to eat them?
Meat is delicious, and humans, as part of the food chain eat other animals. It's no more immoral than when a lion catches and eats a gazelle.
No, I also eat out, but mostly at healthful restaurants. I'm not really much of a fast food eater, but I'm not all stressed out about food like you.
All the hysteria about hormones are really scientifically unfounded anyway. I just like the way fresh meat tastes (I usually buy it within 24 hours of the slaughter) better than grocery store bought meat.
Meat is delicious, and humans, as part of the food chain eat other animals. It's no more immoral than when a lion catches and eats a gazelle.
No, I also eat out, but mostly at healthful restaurants. I'm not really much of a fast food eater, but I'm not all stressed out about food like you.
Do hormones remain in the milk or meat of treated animals?
The levels of naturally produced hormones vary from animal to animal, and a range in these levels is known to be normal. Because it is not possible to differentiate between the hormones produced naturally by the animal and those used to treat the animal, it is difficult to determine exactly how much of the hormone used for treatment remains in the meat or the milk. Studies indicate that if correct treatment and slaughter procedures are followed, the levels of these hormones may be slightly higher in the treated animal's meat or milk, but are still within the normal range of natural variation known to occur in untreated animals. Scientists are currently trying to develop better methods to measure steroid hormone residues left in edible meat from a treated animal.
http://envirocancer.cornell.edu/Factshee…
All the hysteria about hormones are really scientifically unfounded anyway. I just like the way fresh meat tastes (I usually buy it within 24 hours of the slaughter) better than grocery store bought meat.
147
Rob, I just got off the phone with White Wave Foods, the maker of the Silk Soymilk I have been talking about.
"The b12 comes from a vegetable glucose fermentation process and there are no animal products in the base culture. The B12 is vegan."
If you'd like to, you can call 1-888-820-9283 to check for yourself.
"The b12 comes from a vegetable glucose fermentation process and there are no animal products in the base culture. The B12 is vegan."
If you'd like to, you can call 1-888-820-9283 to check for yourself.
148
147, Um, I could say I just got off the phone with anyone, and claim they said anything. Also the person to which I was speaking could claim anything they wanted. I really don't care enough to call. I really don't care what you eat. I only care that you want to dictate, and moralize over what I eat. Plenty of animals die in the growing, harvesting, preparing, storing, shipping of your food, but you can just over look that, right. It's only important about the animals that die over what others eat.
149
*I* only eat meat bought off a local farm, which I prepare in my own home. I know what the animals eat (mostly grass), the conditions they're kept in (as I went to visit the farm) & the names of my farmers. Don't eat huge chunks of it, don't eat it every day - but when I do, I relish it. I drive a small car which I share w/ someone, recycle everything I can & got my job to let me work from home. If someone ASKS me my opinion about any of that, I'll tell 'em, or if pops up online, as it has, I'll blab. But.
It's really obnoxious to assume that only vegetarians are socially responsible; also, & more importantly, I can't presume that my choices are right for everyone, Parker Todd, as you have.
It's really obnoxious to assume that only vegetarians are socially responsible; also, & more importantly, I can't presume that my choices are right for everyone, Parker Todd, as you have.
150
Rob, like I said in 142, your assertion is infallible so this conversation is over ("I could say I just got off the phone with anyone, and claim they said anything" Errrr.. I even provided a PHONE NUMBER.)
Since a bug might get killed in the process of walking to the fridge, we might as well just stock that fridge with all the meat we can handle?
You'd like to completely dismiss any attempt that a vegetarian might make at diminishing their harm of others because they cannot guarentee 100% that they are able to make zero impact, even though trying to make less impact?
You are a jerk and your argument is so insane that I would have to be crazy to continue to address you, which I am not.
Since a bug might get killed in the process of walking to the fridge, we might as well just stock that fridge with all the meat we can handle?
You'd like to completely dismiss any attempt that a vegetarian might make at diminishing their harm of others because they cannot guarentee 100% that they are able to make zero impact, even though trying to make less impact?
You are a jerk and your argument is so insane that I would have to be crazy to continue to address you, which I am not.
151
@ 143, your ignorant response demands an answer.
There's EVERYTHING natural about humanely raise, grass-fed beef. The only kind I eat. Same with the chicken, bison, lamb, and pork I eat. Which I don't do every day because meat should not be consumed every day, let alone at every meal.
Like I said, get educated. We'll be comrades-in-arms if you want to end the horrible industrial meat industry, but that is not in any way entwined with the notion that humans must not eat meat at all. There are natural alternatives.
The only compelling reason to be vegetarian or vegan is the ethical angle - that killing animals for food is, in and of itself, wrong. Unfortunately, the evidence supports that it is not wrong. (See: natural order, some animals are prey and some predators, people are natural omnivores, etc.)
I really want to leave this off, since you can't argue with a mule (which would be you, Parker), but I will keep it up if you think you're poking holes in my arguments when you're not.
There's EVERYTHING natural about humanely raise, grass-fed beef. The only kind I eat. Same with the chicken, bison, lamb, and pork I eat. Which I don't do every day because meat should not be consumed every day, let alone at every meal.
Like I said, get educated. We'll be comrades-in-arms if you want to end the horrible industrial meat industry, but that is not in any way entwined with the notion that humans must not eat meat at all. There are natural alternatives.
The only compelling reason to be vegetarian or vegan is the ethical angle - that killing animals for food is, in and of itself, wrong. Unfortunately, the evidence supports that it is not wrong. (See: natural order, some animals are prey and some predators, people are natural omnivores, etc.)
I really want to leave this off, since you can't argue with a mule (which would be you, Parker), but I will keep it up if you think you're poking holes in my arguments when you're not.
154
@144, This is from the National Institutes of Health: "Up to 30 percent of adults aged 50 years and older may have atrophic gastritis, an increased growth of intestinal bacteria, and be unable to normally absorb vitamin B12 in food. They are, however, able to absorb the *synthetic* vitamin B12 added to fortified foods and dietary supplements. Vitamin supplements and fortified foods may be the best sources of vitamin B12 for adults older than age 50 years [7]."
University of Maryland Medical Center: "Deficiencies are rare in young people, although the elderly may have trouble absorbing natural vitamin B12 and require *synthetic* forms from supplements and fortified foods."
Wikipedia: "A common *synthetic* form of the vitamin, cyanocobalamin, does not occur in nature, but is used in many pharmaceuticals, supplements and as food additive, due to its stability and lower cost."
You can do a Google search for "cyanocobalamin" for all kinds of information about synthetic B12.
Your assertion that vegetarians need to "pump" their bodies full of synthetic vitamins is just silly. I've been vegetarian for 15 years. I don't use any vitamin supplements, but eat a balanced diet of fresh foods with fortified foods for B12 (which the liver actually stores, and deficiency in the U.S. is extremely rare). I have a physical each year and make my doctor run all the tests to see if I'm deficient. I never have been, and in fact my continued health blows him away. I'm 38, 6'2", 175 pounds, 31-inch waist and muscular. I work out a minimum of 4 times a week (heavy weights, different muscle group each time), and do cardio. Most days I walk the 3 miles home from work. Last week I breezed through a 9 mile hike up and down a mountain (4000 ft elevation gain), and the previous weekend through two back-to-back 9 mile hikes. The jabs that vegetarians are sickly creatures suffering from "pernicious anemia" as one commenter stated are just dumb.
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University of Maryland Medical Center: "Deficiencies are rare in young people, although the elderly may have trouble absorbing natural vitamin B12 and require *synthetic* forms from supplements and fortified foods."
Wikipedia: "A common *synthetic* form of the vitamin, cyanocobalamin, does not occur in nature, but is used in many pharmaceuticals, supplements and as food additive, due to its stability and lower cost."
You can do a Google search for "cyanocobalamin" for all kinds of information about synthetic B12.
Your assertion that vegetarians need to "pump" their bodies full of synthetic vitamins is just silly. I've been vegetarian for 15 years. I don't use any vitamin supplements, but eat a balanced diet of fresh foods with fortified foods for B12 (which the liver actually stores, and deficiency in the U.S. is extremely rare). I have a physical each year and make my doctor run all the tests to see if I'm deficient. I never have been, and in fact my continued health blows him away. I'm 38, 6'2", 175 pounds, 31-inch waist and muscular. I work out a minimum of 4 times a week (heavy weights, different muscle group each time), and do cardio. Most days I walk the 3 miles home from work. Last week I breezed through a 9 mile hike up and down a mountain (4000 ft elevation gain), and the previous weekend through two back-to-back 9 mile hikes. The jabs that vegetarians are sickly creatures suffering from "pernicious anemia" as one commenter stated are just dumb.
155
150, Again, your phone number proves nothing, and it doesn't prove the credibility of the person on the other end.
If you get a roach, or rodent infestation in your living space, are you going to let them live there with you? Would you eat at a vegan restaurant with the philosophy that it's immoral to kill such animals living in the kitchen for the sake of human food?
Again you confirm, that you feel that any animals that die because of your diet can be overlooked as oopies, (even though it's millions and millions of animals) but when an animal dies for the sake of someone else's food, suddenly it's immoral to kill animals for food!
I'm sorry if you feel I'm a jerk for pointing out the obvious flaws in your thinking.
Um so now you're not speaking to me anymore? Oh no, how will I go on!?! I know! A nice steak will help me move on.
If you get a roach, or rodent infestation in your living space, are you going to let them live there with you? Would you eat at a vegan restaurant with the philosophy that it's immoral to kill such animals living in the kitchen for the sake of human food?
Again you confirm, that you feel that any animals that die because of your diet can be overlooked as oopies, (even though it's millions and millions of animals) but when an animal dies for the sake of someone else's food, suddenly it's immoral to kill animals for food!
I'm sorry if you feel I'm a jerk for pointing out the obvious flaws in your thinking.
Um so now you're not speaking to me anymore? Oh no, how will I go on!?! I know! A nice steak will help me move on.
156
Right, I read those comments. They just say, in essence, we must stop eating meat because we now have other options. Which, by extension, means that meat eating was a necessary evil prior to this point in time, but we should make the right choice and become vegetarian or vegan because we can. Which, by further extension, means that eating meat is wrong.
Which it's not.
You're going to have to do better if you're right. You have to PROVE that eating meat is, in and of itself, wrong. You'll have to demonstrate that doing as Eva and I do is necessarily immoral, rather than a legitimate option like being a vegan. You've already acknowledged that people are naturally omnivores; now you need to demonstrate why it's ethically superior to choose your path rather than mine.
Hint: you can't just say killing animals is wrong. If people are omnivores, and if these animals are meant to be prey, then no, it's not.
Can you do that, or can you only repeat yourself? That's my challenge to you.
Which it's not.
You're going to have to do better if you're right. You have to PROVE that eating meat is, in and of itself, wrong. You'll have to demonstrate that doing as Eva and I do is necessarily immoral, rather than a legitimate option like being a vegan. You've already acknowledged that people are naturally omnivores; now you need to demonstrate why it's ethically superior to choose your path rather than mine.
Hint: you can't just say killing animals is wrong. If people are omnivores, and if these animals are meant to be prey, then no, it's not.
Can you do that, or can you only repeat yourself? That's my challenge to you.
157
154, That doesn't answer what I asked. It just says that people with a medical condition could use synthetic B12 as a replacement. It doesn't say it's as good, nor does it say that soy milk uses synthetic B12.
158
150, Again, your phone number proves nothing, and it doesn't prove the credibility of the person on the other end.
Right Rob. A nationally recognized brand is making stuff up to help me prove you wrong.
YOU ARE WRONG!
You failed.
It made you look really stupid, and you are. PEACE.
Right Rob. A nationally recognized brand is making stuff up to help me prove you wrong.
YOU ARE WRONG!
You failed.
It made you look really stupid, and you are. PEACE.
159
Matt,
Meat eating was a necessary evil prior to this point in time, but we should make the right choice and become vegetarian or vegan because we can.
Meat eating was a necessary evil prior to this point in time, but we should make the right choice and become vegetarian or vegan because we can.
160
Not good enough, Parker. You can make that choice for yourself, but if you can't demonstrate why that's the ethically superior choice, then you have no business telling others to make it too.
161
158, Yes, national corporations have never been known to mislead customers! Customer service people have never, ever, ever, ever gotten their facts wrong! How dare I not take the corporation's word as sacred scriptural, and ultimate truth.
162
It's shocking that you think the ball is in my court to demonstrate how killing animals is an ethically inferior choice to trying not to kill or eat them.
It's kinda basic, needs no explanation, and I don't know how to demonstrate to you that not killing is more ethical than killing.
Matt: the sky is blue.
It's kinda basic, needs no explanation, and I don't know how to demonstrate to you that not killing is more ethical than killing.
Matt: the sky is blue.
163
159, Why is being a vegetarian the only right choice for everyone, and why do you get to make that determination of the ultimate right choice for all?
164
Rob: first you first assert that any B12 only comes from animals, which you were wrong about. It can be synthesized. When that attack fell apart, your next try was to try to humiliate those who don't eat meat but yes, consume a synthetic version of it? When that fell apart, you attack the information that I provided and it's credibility which goes against your other attempt ("I bet it's extracted from a dairy or egg product.")
It's really desperate and sad, dude.
It's really desperate and sad, dude.
166
If you've ethically decided that it "can not possibly be wrong for omnivores to kill animals" even though we don't even need to, this is too twisted for me to continue. YIKES!
167
164, So, I admit, the information I first found was incomplete. I was mistaken, and B12 can be synthesized. That doesn't mean it's better, or even as good. Oh yeah, all artificial ingredients are as good as the real thing, right? You have yet to prove you eat a synthesized version of B12.
If you get a rat or roach infestation, what would you do? Would you eat at a vegan restaurant who's owners thought it would be wrong to kill such animals living in their kitchen because it's wrong to kill animals for food?
Right, it's only wrong for other people's food.
I don't care what you eat, and if you feel humiliated, that is on you.
If you get a rat or roach infestation, what would you do? Would you eat at a vegan restaurant who's owners thought it would be wrong to kill such animals living in their kitchen because it's wrong to kill animals for food?
Right, it's only wrong for other people's food.
I don't care what you eat, and if you feel humiliated, that is on you.
168
How is it twisted? Omnivore = eats meat and plants. If we are natural omnivores, then we eat meat. Ergo, meat consumption is not wrong.
I think you're the one getting all twisted. After all, if you could point out the flaws in my logic, you would. Well, that's what happens when you make decisions emotionally rather than rationally.
I think you're the one getting all twisted. After all, if you could point out the flaws in my logic, you would. Well, that's what happens when you make decisions emotionally rather than rationally.
169
166, Why can't you put in words why you feel it's unethical to kill animals for (other than the ones killed for your) food, You just keep saying that it is, but can't seem to express a coherent reason why.
170
To add to my post at 169: Just saying that others are twisted because they don't believe as you isn't a coherent reason.
171
Rob is right. There being no "need" is not compelling; others have successfully argued and demonstrated that here.
172
The flaws in your logic are that you cannot see that your logic is flawed, Matt, because we are coming from 2 entirely different and non-negotiable approaches.
-You feel entitled to continue to eat meat and ethically justified in doing so because we always have and evolved along with it.
-I feel that you are not ethically entitled to eat meat just because we always have now that we live in a time when our diets can be sustained without killing other things or at least killing far fewer things.Thus choosing to kill or eat meat and feeling righteous about it is therefore ethically inferior.
I just don't think our angles are rectifiable so I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
I do not want to be or portray the angry vegetarian, because I am not angry.
-You feel entitled to continue to eat meat and ethically justified in doing so because we always have and evolved along with it.
-I feel that you are not ethically entitled to eat meat just because we always have now that we live in a time when our diets can be sustained without killing other things or at least killing far fewer things.Thus choosing to kill or eat meat and feeling righteous about it is therefore ethically inferior.
I just don't think our angles are rectifiable so I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
I do not want to be or portray the angry vegetarian, because I am not angry.
173
171, If you don't mind me adding to your thought: One could argue that there is no need for the average person to have electricity. People have lived for thousands and thousands of years without it. It's production causes 80% of the worlds greenhouse gases. Because it's not needed, does it make it unethical to use it?
174
172, again, you haven't stated the reason why you believe it. You just keep saying you believe it, and anyone who disagrees with you is twisted.
Fill in the blanks:
Killing animals for food even though (you feel) it's not absolutely necessary is unethical because ___________________________________________
Killing animals in the growing, harvesting, production, shipping and storing of food, even though it's not absolutely necessary is ethical because __________________________________________________
Fill in the blanks:
Killing animals for food even though (you feel) it's not absolutely necessary is unethical because ___________________________________________
Killing animals in the growing, harvesting, production, shipping and storing of food, even though it's not absolutely necessary is ethical because __________________________________________________
175
@ 172, I'll have to leave it at this: I object to you making that decision for me when you're ill-informed. Please check out the vegetarianism debate in The Omnivore's Dilemma; it covers the symbiosis of animal husbandry better than I could, and will probably provoke you to think deeper about the implications of vegetarianism if we all chose as you did.
177
@167, Just checked my veggie products in the fridge and freezer (Boca Burger and Yves products) that contain B12. They specifically list cyanocobalamin as an ingredient, a synthetic, non-animal B12 vitamin.
179
I bet Dan is in a snit right now because his post isn't most commented. Of course Bethany can only get there with a carnivore/vegetarian flame war. Kinda sad to only have one gig that gets you to the top, babe. Maybe you should try to diversify, you know, branch out, get other types of groups to flame one another. This shtick is a little old. I know you can do it. And here's a comment to keep you on the top. Think of it as a little encouragement to try something new.
181
Why doesn't SLOG just finally post a story about Erica C. Barnett getting drunk on stolen wine and dumping a bucket of foie gras on a Critical Mass event? Just go for the whole schmeer once and for all.
182
Look at these 2 losers from out of state cities posting about an event held outside of seattle
MATT AND ROB ARE FUCKING GAY FAG LOSERS!!! HAHAHAH GO CATCH AIDS
MATT AND ROB ARE FUCKING GAY FAG LOSERS!!! HAHAHAH GO CATCH AIDS
183
Is Seattle the only place to talk about vegetarianism? Or gay marriage? Or art? Or suicide? Or youth pastors? Or sex? Or the Supreme Court? Or national politics? Or international news? Or dogs with forks in their heads? Or computer technology? Or Harry Potter? Or Michael Jackson? Or books? Or movies? Or travel?
186
the flaws in all y'alls logic is that you think people are going to stop eating meat, not just in the US but (mostly, importantly) everywhere else because... your crusade will be done.
Look, people here on slog are (i know, unbelievably) actually MORE LIKELY TO AGREE with you about how much meat we should all eat, whether, etc. We're not about to give it up entirely, but as far as crusades go, if you're looking for a starting place, we're your choir. So stop acting like you've never been laid and starting being convincing.
Look, people here on slog are (i know, unbelievably) actually MORE LIKELY TO AGREE with you about how much meat we should all eat, whether, etc. We're not about to give it up entirely, but as far as crusades go, if you're looking for a starting place, we're your choir. So stop acting like you've never been laid and starting being convincing.
187
that said, Fnarf is wrong with the Calvinism analogy. Puritanism he meant to say. Calvinism here would, I think, mean we're all predestined to eat meat or not, and we have no choice in the matter.
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