Friday, July 10, 2009
Homo / Religion Gay Couple Vs. LDS Church Security Guards At Salt Lake City's Temple Square
Posted by David Schmader on Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 2:33 PM
Two men showing affection while crossing Salt Lake City's (Mormon-owned) Temple Square get roughed up by LDS church security guards. The blog Blue in Red Zion has the story so far.
Thanks for the tip, Slog Tipper Tom.
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1
Organize a protest. A giant make-out session for equality.
Don't be snobs about it. Invite heterosexual friends to show solidarity.
Unless organizing something like that is too much work.
Then just whine about it in the blogosphere. Have a big collective gripe-fest about Mormons.
Don't be snobs about it. Invite heterosexual friends to show solidarity.
Unless organizing something like that is too much work.
Then just whine about it in the blogosphere. Have a big collective gripe-fest about Mormons.
2
I find this shocking!
Wait, no... that's not the right word.
Predictable! Yes, I find this predictable.
Wait, no... that's not the right word.
Predictable! Yes, I find this predictable.
3
I've walked across that square and there are very prominant signs at every entrance saying it is the private property of the mormon church. As the guy basically admits in his write-up, the church has every right to demand that they not act gay or not wear purple or whatever.
There is a bit of gap in his telling of the story in between their being told to stop and their being forcably detained. If, in that gap, they were told that their either need to stop or leave immediately, and they refued, then the guards were well within their rights to detain them. Given that the guards were happy to call the cops, and were taking picutres to document their actions, I strong suspect they had given them the opportunity to desist or leave. If not, they need to be prosecuted for unlawful detention. But if so, there is no law against being authoritarian, homophobic assholes on your own property, nor should there be.
There is a bit of gap in his telling of the story in between their being told to stop and their being forcably detained. If, in that gap, they were told that their either need to stop or leave immediately, and they refued, then the guards were well within their rights to detain them. Given that the guards were happy to call the cops, and were taking picutres to document their actions, I strong suspect they had given them the opportunity to desist or leave. If not, they need to be prosecuted for unlawful detention. But if so, there is no law against being authoritarian, homophobic assholes on your own property, nor should there be.
4
David Wright: I think you're right, and this story is most interesting as far as it pertains to the Mormon Church's expressed desire to improve how its perceived on gay issues, after the PR-failure of Prop 8.
5
To put it another way, Mormons like to be liked, but they also really like to be reverent, and their beliefs on gay issues are putting them in a tough spot of being widely perceived as retrograde bigots, which I find morbidly delightful.
9
I very much wish someone in law enforcement would start arresting rent-a-cops when they try to physically detain people. Its so annoyingly to hear about them getting away with crap like that.
10
@3 While they have a right to protect that property I am not sure that extends to the right to forcibly detain people who are not currently a threat to their property or well being.
Its the same reason I cannot shot a person running of with my stereo or torture kids who trespass.
Calling the police to remove the trespassers without assaulting them would have been the correct action.
Its the same reason I cannot shot a person running of with my stereo or torture kids who trespass.
Calling the police to remove the trespassers without assaulting them would have been the correct action.
11
While the security guards may have acted within the law, the real issue here is they are an actively homophobic organization that has worked behind the scenes to deny gay civil liberties.
Encounters like this force them into the public spotlight, and as such, they are a good thing. Hope we see more makeout sessions, gay and straight, on the square.
Encounters like this force them into the public spotlight, and as such, they are a good thing. Hope we see more makeout sessions, gay and straight, on the square.
12
You know, @1, mentioning gay-related injustice on a blog is not the same a whining about it. After all, you can't organize a protest if people don't know what the fuck's going on. If you can't stand hearing about gay issues on slog, maybe you should go do something else. I suggest suicide.
13
David Wright:
The couple was actually walking through Main Street Plaza east of Temple Square. The Plaza, which the Mormon Church refers to as "a little bit of Paris in Salt Lake City," used to be a public street with sidewalks. The Mormons bought it and closed it to traffic in the 1990s, but an easement remains on the property to ensure public access. That makes the "private property" argument a lot more complicated.
The couple was actually walking through Main Street Plaza east of Temple Square. The Plaza, which the Mormon Church refers to as "a little bit of Paris in Salt Lake City," used to be a public street with sidewalks. The Mormons bought it and closed it to traffic in the 1990s, but an easement remains on the property to ensure public access. That makes the "private property" argument a lot more complicated.
14
Tom @ 13 is exactly right, when magic underpants inc bought the street and converted it into a mall there were specific complaints about what the fake-church would do in situations such as this. Underpants assured the city of SLC that these things wouldn't happen. They lied.
15
I 'm gonna blame that fucking Disneyland wedding proposal video, because while this is a terrible situation, I get this mental image of a gay marriage proposal on one knee and all that, then a bunch of hot Mormon security guards show up and do this chorus line thingy then there's a big finale with rainbows.
Because it seems sometimes Disneyland ain't got nothin' on the Mormons when it comes to levels of gayness.
Because it seems sometimes Disneyland ain't got nothin' on the Mormons when it comes to levels of gayness.
16
I am mostly interested in how the hell Salt Lake City wound up making what is apparently _Main Street_ the private property of the Mormon Church. That just squicks me out right there. You can't walk down Main Street and kiss because it's the private property of a church that was allowed to buy it? Ridiculous.
18
@12 I'm not complaining that there is mention of gay-related injustice.
I'm complaining that it stops there. At a mention.
Does ANYONE organize for the gay community?
If this is to be considered a civil rights issue, why is there no use of established civil rights protest methods?
People shit on public figures like Al Sharpton, but at least that man can mobilize people.
It is that very lack of pro-active solidarity in the gay-rights community that allowed Prop 8 to pass.
The protests after the fact? The mad accusations and scapegoating? We all saw how that turned out.
"Activism" has largely been restricted to emails, on-line communities, phone-calls, etc... things that nobody has to leave their computer for.
Am I simply reading the wrong blog?
I'm complaining that it stops there. At a mention.
Does ANYONE organize for the gay community?
If this is to be considered a civil rights issue, why is there no use of established civil rights protest methods?
People shit on public figures like Al Sharpton, but at least that man can mobilize people.
It is that very lack of pro-active solidarity in the gay-rights community that allowed Prop 8 to pass.
The protests after the fact? The mad accusations and scapegoating? We all saw how that turned out.
"Activism" has largely been restricted to emails, on-line communities, phone-calls, etc... things that nobody has to leave their computer for.
Am I simply reading the wrong blog?
19
@12 Actually, I think @1 has a point. Dan put the idea of Civil Disobedience on the Slog a few weeks ago and everyone was all gung-ho about it. Then nothing happened. I, with the help of a few others, set up a website, tried to organize people to make it happen, but no response.
So right now, it does seem like a bunch of people are just whining on the internet and are too lazy to really try to change things.
Anyone wanna set up a kissing protest? I'll help you organize it, just let me know.
protestforhumanrights.com
So right now, it does seem like a bunch of people are just whining on the internet and are too lazy to really try to change things.
Anyone wanna set up a kissing protest? I'll help you organize it, just let me know.
protestforhumanrights.com
20
I'd like to take this opportunity to brag about finally being taken off the Mormon membership list. Free at last, free at last!
21
So this episode proves that gays with a beer under the belt can match rent-a-cops step for step in an 'Obnoxious Asshole' contest?
22
"It isn't good to be alone, it isn't good. So if you find someone to love you really should join hands and be together...." --lyrics from 1977 Mormon stage musical "My Turn On Earth."
23
@18 - We are out there in Porterville California, which was the on City in the State whose Council thought it a good idea to pass a Resolution in favor of Prop 8.
We are engaged in shining a light on their hateful ways and would love the assistance of anyone here.
Dan? Are you listening? We are going to flip this place, the first domino to fall in the Central Valley...
My blog is portervillenerd.com, you can all contact me there.
Here are some news stories documenting Prop 8 disaster here in town, there are more available from Fresno TV stations (no links right now, headed out to dinner, I will dig them up later), Visalia newspapers, and we have a reporter from LA doing a long piece. We need more of your help!
I don't know this guy, but hey, feel free to contact him :)
anti-pro 8 story in recorder: http://www.recorderonline.com/opinion/ma…
that last one prompted this from Owens:
http://www.recorderonline.com/opinion/co…
and this from some other guy never seen since: http://www.recorderonline.com/articles/m…
and later, this showed up: http://www.recorderonline.com/articles/c… from some random dude
here is the story that broke the news of the resolution: http://www.recorderonline.com/news/porte…
then some dude who still thinks the world as he sees it is a giant communist plot: http://www.recorderonline.com/articles/m…
and that guy's wife (they deserve each other but their kids and other family sure don't): http://www.recorderonline.com/articles/f…
no comment :)
Council Hears an Earful: http://www.recorderonline.com/news/counc…
shocked us: Recorder editorial: vote no on 8! : http://www.recorderonline.com/opinion/pr…
finally found the piece from dennis townsend I was looking for (but there is a whole history that seems lost for now). Read it and laugh or weep since his side has won so far: http://www.recorderonline.com/opinion/pr…
don't know this guy but good on him: http://www.recorderonline.com/articles/d…
this couple doesn't know that our laws are secular and are apparently proud of it: http://www.recorderonline.com/articles/d…
church leader speaks out in support of know-nothing hate. You ought to talk to this guy: http://www.recorderonline.com/articles/l…
evidence that what is being taught in churches is that how you vote now affects your prospects for a favorable afterlife later: http://www.recorderonline.com/articles/p…
in the heat of the moment, a kid was probably put up to this. might be interesting to find this kid and ask about what marriage means. hate form the mouth of babes makes fantastic video: http://www.recorderonline.com/articles/t…
was the ballot confusing after all that? election day at last: http://www.recorderonline.com/news/polli…
Intermediate prop 8 vote counting: http://www.recorderonline.com/news/perce…
post-election recorder editorial, disappointing - your side lost, too bad, move on, get over it, wasn't that important anyway: http://www.recorderonline.com/opinion/ra…
More...
We are engaged in shining a light on their hateful ways and would love the assistance of anyone here.
Dan? Are you listening? We are going to flip this place, the first domino to fall in the Central Valley...
My blog is portervillenerd.com, you can all contact me there.
Here are some news stories documenting Prop 8 disaster here in town, there are more available from Fresno TV stations (no links right now, headed out to dinner, I will dig them up later), Visalia newspapers, and we have a reporter from LA doing a long piece. We need more of your help!
I don't know this guy, but hey, feel free to contact him :)
anti-pro 8 story in recorder: http://www.recorderonline.com/opinion/ma…
that last one prompted this from Owens:
http://www.recorderonline.com/opinion/co…
and this from some other guy never seen since: http://www.recorderonline.com/articles/m…
and later, this showed up: http://www.recorderonline.com/articles/c… from some random dude
here is the story that broke the news of the resolution: http://www.recorderonline.com/news/porte…
then some dude who still thinks the world as he sees it is a giant communist plot: http://www.recorderonline.com/articles/m…
and that guy's wife (they deserve each other but their kids and other family sure don't): http://www.recorderonline.com/articles/f…
no comment :)
Council Hears an Earful: http://www.recorderonline.com/news/counc…
shocked us: Recorder editorial: vote no on 8! : http://www.recorderonline.com/opinion/pr…
finally found the piece from dennis townsend I was looking for (but there is a whole history that seems lost for now). Read it and laugh or weep since his side has won so far: http://www.recorderonline.com/opinion/pr…
don't know this guy but good on him: http://www.recorderonline.com/articles/d…
this couple doesn't know that our laws are secular and are apparently proud of it: http://www.recorderonline.com/articles/d…
church leader speaks out in support of know-nothing hate. You ought to talk to this guy: http://www.recorderonline.com/articles/l…
evidence that what is being taught in churches is that how you vote now affects your prospects for a favorable afterlife later: http://www.recorderonline.com/articles/p…
in the heat of the moment, a kid was probably put up to this. might be interesting to find this kid and ask about what marriage means. hate form the mouth of babes makes fantastic video: http://www.recorderonline.com/articles/t…
was the ballot confusing after all that? election day at last: http://www.recorderonline.com/news/polli…
Intermediate prop 8 vote counting: http://www.recorderonline.com/news/perce…
post-election recorder editorial, disappointing - your side lost, too bad, move on, get over it, wasn't that important anyway: http://www.recorderonline.com/opinion/ra…
24
Nice one, tornadoZ. I haven't heard that one forever.
Why couldn't Bruno have done his US premiere in SLC? Forget hollywood, that would have been hot publicity. I'd love to have seen him strut his stuff down the secret mormon alley thing.
Why couldn't Bruno have done his US premiere in SLC? Forget hollywood, that would have been hot publicity. I'd love to have seen him strut his stuff down the secret mormon alley thing.
25
Okay, a few points:
There is no easement on the property. There used to be, until the city sold the easement to the LDS church. The church has given a "guarantee of public access," but they retain the right to expel anyone for any reason. (They acquired the property in a land swap with the city; the issue was challenged in court by the ACLU, and the ACLU lost.) Technically, they were within their legal rights to require the men to leave. However, the security guards (not police) cuffed and detained the two men until the police actually arrived. This could be a big problem. Also, given the wording of Utah's trespassing laws, it might be difficult to get that charge to stick.
Rent-a-cops are bad enough usually, but these were homophobic, prick Rent-a-cops. I am a Mormon myself and find this whole affair thoroughly disgusting. I think most of my fellow religionists are nice folks, but clearly there are some bastards in there too. Even from a strictly self-interested PR perspective, they couldn't have handled this in a worse way. Church spokesperson Kim Farah's recent remarks have only dug the whole deeper.
And, 24, the Brüno idea? GENIUS!
There is no easement on the property. There used to be, until the city sold the easement to the LDS church. The church has given a "guarantee of public access," but they retain the right to expel anyone for any reason. (They acquired the property in a land swap with the city; the issue was challenged in court by the ACLU, and the ACLU lost.) Technically, they were within their legal rights to require the men to leave. However, the security guards (not police) cuffed and detained the two men until the police actually arrived. This could be a big problem. Also, given the wording of Utah's trespassing laws, it might be difficult to get that charge to stick.
Rent-a-cops are bad enough usually, but these were homophobic, prick Rent-a-cops. I am a Mormon myself and find this whole affair thoroughly disgusting. I think most of my fellow religionists are nice folks, but clearly there are some bastards in there too. Even from a strictly self-interested PR perspective, they couldn't have handled this in a worse way. Church spokesperson Kim Farah's recent remarks have only dug the whole deeper.
And, 24, the Brüno idea? GENIUS!
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