Wednesday, July 8, 2009
Savage Love Savage Love Letter of the Day
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 3:37 PM
Wow, Dan, thanks for answering my letter! I can't believe my stupid letter made the column, mostly because I knew all along I wouldn't go, and I'm not going. Your response did put some things into perspective, though. I could maybe afford half the airfare, but I definitely couldn't afford half the airfare and a hotel room. Plus, it might be the romantic adventure of a lifetime for some other girl, but not for me: I lost my virginity in Paris. The "friend" who vetted this guy was my first, and is equally pretty. It didn't end well but we stayed in touch, and I met this new guy when I was chatting with my original Paris friend via webcam. I guess what I wanted was not an adventure so much as a do over, with the possibility of a happier ending. But I wouldn't have even gotten that.I didn't mention in my letter but this new guy is married. Both he and my friend are Algerian, and he married some French chick to get his papers. Also, in the first conversation I had with him after reconnecting, he offered to pay half my airfare, so you might be right about a screw being loose. Plus, I'm already seeing someone, not seriously yet but I like the guy I'm seeing enough not to go to France. So I knew even before I wrote to you that I wasn't going to go. I don't know why I wrote to you, Dan. I guess I was just bored.
Thanks again Dan! I'm sure your response will be helpful to others who are actually seriously going abroad to meet someone.
Anxious Straight Girl
If the hypothetical scenario you laid out in your first letter had included these additional details—the boy is MARRIED, you're seeing someone else, you had already made up your mind not to take the boy up on his offer—I wouldn't have advised you to go to Paris. So I'm glad you're not going. And perhaps my response will be of use to other girls thinking of going to Paris to hook up with married Algerian francophones. But next time you send a letter to an advice columnist... err on the side of too much information, ASG, not too little.
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5
oh, i came here to share the same thoughts, but i'm so glad you all agreed before I made it. dumb ass flake!
6
Sometimes, people tell you just enough to get permission to do something they know will end horribly.
This is one of those times.
This is one of those times.
7
She sounds like a train wreck. Maybe she really should fly to Paris to fuck this guy... just be sure to record the whole thing, it'll make an interesting reality show clip.
8
You know this girl would end up like another Amanda Knox, had she gone to Paris to hook up with this married skeeze-biscuit. But on the bright side, I guess that would at least provide Charles with another subject to write about?
10
I give the girl a little bit of credit, though she's clearly a ditz. The romantic fantasy can be incredibly powerful, as I once discovered when I actually purchased such a plane ticket to see a boy some many thousands of miles away.
Needless to say, it didn't work out. At least I got a trip to Paris out of the deal.
Needless to say, it didn't work out. At least I got a trip to Paris out of the deal.
11
My most recent pastime is the Valve Software's latest opus, the cooperative game Left 4 Dead, in which four survivors fight their way through zombie-infested no-mans-land in cinematic style. From a gamer's perspective, this L4D is unique in that it creates strong incentive to keep everybody else alive whenever possible. And that includes saving n00bs who really don't know what they're doing.
N00bs are beginners, who don't know much about the game, that could be described by some as fucking stupid. And they do.
The role I've taken in this game (and quite enjoy), is educating n00bs to the nuances of game, including:
~ ways to fuck up that can easily be avoided,
~ ways to fuck up that'll probably get you (and, consequently, the rest of us) killed, and
~ game details that are easy to miss, but make you significantly more valuable to the team if you know about them.
In short, I take pride in elevating these kids to just out of the n00b threshold.
That said, part of Dan's role as a sex advice columnist is to educate and elevate his writers (and many more of his readers) out of the n00b threshold. When on The Colbert Report Dan stated as one of his ambitions is to inform the heterosexual public where the clitoris is on a girl, a knowledge of which pushes one towards the edge (if not out) of the n00b threshold.
Hence, I think it's a fine thing that Dan field these kinds of questions from time to time.
N00bs are beginners, who don't know much about the game, that could be described by some as fucking stupid. And they do.
The role I've taken in this game (and quite enjoy), is educating n00bs to the nuances of game, including:
~ ways to fuck up that can easily be avoided,
~ ways to fuck up that'll probably get you (and, consequently, the rest of us) killed, and
~ game details that are easy to miss, but make you significantly more valuable to the team if you know about them.
In short, I take pride in elevating these kids to just out of the n00b threshold.
That said, part of Dan's role as a sex advice columnist is to educate and elevate his writers (and many more of his readers) out of the n00b threshold. When on The Colbert Report Dan stated as one of his ambitions is to inform the heterosexual public where the clitoris is on a girl, a knowledge of which pushes one towards the edge (if not out) of the n00b threshold.
Hence, I think it's a fine thing that Dan field these kinds of questions from time to time.
13
Here's one for ya: I visited a friend of 5 years in Italy this past January. We very much had sex. I've only been sexually active for 2 years, having only fuck-buddies that ended spectacularly. He's been with me through it all.
Before I left, someone mentioned to me that he had a boyfriend. I tried confirming it with my friend, but he said it was just "a really good friend."
When I got back home, that same someone reiterated the boyfriend status and I asked again. My friend said that they've known each other for 3 years (first I've known about this guy). I spazzed, panicked, etc. He said that he wanted to tell me when I was there, but I "looked so sweet sleeping there" that he "couldn't bear to tell me." But he said he didn't want to lose my friendship.
All of last year during my failures, he said he was going to visit me here in America. That fell through but he continued to promise it this year. I asked him why I was priority over his boyfriend and he stated that he visited the guy last year and the boyfriend was going to see him within a couple of weeks. I spazzed again. This is one of the sweetest guys, but obviously not too bright about a few things. I don't believe for an instant anything he's said or hasn't said to me with malice.
First I told him that I wouldn't be able to handle him visiting me, but he restated that he really doesn't want to lose my friendship. I'm scared that if/when he does visit, we're going to have sex again - something that I know I emotionally can't handle but am so starved for someone good in my life right now, that I'll let it.
But since I calmed down, I've partly realized my place in his life. I emailed him asking to state, specifically, where I stand in his life and what my boundaries with him are. Out of everyone I've had relations with, he's the only one who expressed interest in visiting me whereas before, I was driving 6+ hours to everyone else (yay friends-of-friends-of-friends clusterfuck).
So since I've [finally] accepted where I don't belong in his life and what my limit to him is, Do I or Don't I let him visit?
More...
Before I left, someone mentioned to me that he had a boyfriend. I tried confirming it with my friend, but he said it was just "a really good friend."
When I got back home, that same someone reiterated the boyfriend status and I asked again. My friend said that they've known each other for 3 years (first I've known about this guy). I spazzed, panicked, etc. He said that he wanted to tell me when I was there, but I "looked so sweet sleeping there" that he "couldn't bear to tell me." But he said he didn't want to lose my friendship.
All of last year during my failures, he said he was going to visit me here in America. That fell through but he continued to promise it this year. I asked him why I was priority over his boyfriend and he stated that he visited the guy last year and the boyfriend was going to see him within a couple of weeks. I spazzed again. This is one of the sweetest guys, but obviously not too bright about a few things. I don't believe for an instant anything he's said or hasn't said to me with malice.
First I told him that I wouldn't be able to handle him visiting me, but he restated that he really doesn't want to lose my friendship. I'm scared that if/when he does visit, we're going to have sex again - something that I know I emotionally can't handle but am so starved for someone good in my life right now, that I'll let it.
But since I calmed down, I've partly realized my place in his life. I emailed him asking to state, specifically, where I stand in his life and what my boundaries with him are. Out of everyone I've had relations with, he's the only one who expressed interest in visiting me whereas before, I was driving 6+ hours to everyone else (yay friends-of-friends-of-friends clusterfuck).
So since I've [finally] accepted where I don't belong in his life and what my limit to him is, Do I or Don't I let him visit?
14
Ugh. Flighty, silly, boy-crazy, attention-whoring, fickle, ADD girls.
And people wonder why bi girls more often than not gravitate toward the boys. Sometimes--though we may prefer women aesthetically--we prefer our own sanity even more.
And people wonder why bi girls more often than not gravitate toward the boys. Sometimes--though we may prefer women aesthetically--we prefer our own sanity even more.
15
This reminds me of something I once heard about people who ask for advice. Whenever someone asks you for advice, they already know the answer. They just want to hear it from someone else.
16
Maybe she didn't really want the advice, but it's great advice. It is advice I wish I'd been given before going overseas to visit someone who turned out to be something of a sociopath. Thanks, Dan.
17
So, 1-9 and 14, I take it you've never been in a situation where you knew you shouldn't do something but tried to rationalize it somehow? If that's true, I envy you.
18
So ultimately, she's a stupid kid. I suspected as much when I read her letter. Romantic or not, it's stupid. You don't have to fly all the way to a foreign country to get date raped.
And that advice was very bad. Lying to parents and flying thousands of miles away to have sex with a stranger you met on line and know nothing about (even if he's not a married asshole) is stupid.
And that advice was very bad. Lying to parents and flying thousands of miles away to have sex with a stranger you met on line and know nothing about (even if he's not a married asshole) is stupid.
19
@18: Dan didn't tell her to lie about the flying thousands of miles away, just to lie about the specific reason she was going; why does that matter to them? And he didn't tell her to go to have sex with the guy, he told her to go to MEET the guy. You're not being fair.
20
@17 don't be ridiculous.
There is a difference between eliciting advice in a honest way (ie giving all of the facts, like the fact that the guy is married and that you never really ever had any intention of going ) and blatantly leaving out facts, glorifying the situation as a means to get your letter into the paper.
The advice that Dan gave was good advice, to the original question, however the original question was dishonest and left out situational facts that would have changed the advice given.
Therefore she wasted Dan's time in obtaining advice for the situation that she presented, but, perhaps, not in the respect that his advice may fall on the ears of someone who actually needs it.
There is a difference between eliciting advice in a honest way (ie giving all of the facts, like the fact that the guy is married and that you never really ever had any intention of going ) and blatantly leaving out facts, glorifying the situation as a means to get your letter into the paper.
The advice that Dan gave was good advice, to the original question, however the original question was dishonest and left out situational facts that would have changed the advice given.
Therefore she wasted Dan's time in obtaining advice for the situation that she presented, but, perhaps, not in the respect that his advice may fall on the ears of someone who actually needs it.
21
Okay, I understand why you would leave out some details. But the fact that he's married AND that he asked you to come during the very first conversation you had? Come on...
22
@19 - Be fair? Pretty sure this guy isn't offering to pay for half of her ticket so they can MEET.
If she can't be totally honest with her parents, she's not mature enough to be doing shit like this. I don't see any details about her actually having somewhere else to stay, or having a lot of contacts in France, people who could help her, and look out for her.
I love Dan, and usually I agree with him, but if he had given this advice to my daughter, I'd freak. I'd want her to be honest, and I might not agree with her, but if she were an adult, I'd let her go, but at least talk to her about the best route to take, how to play it safe, and stay in touch with me so I know where she is, and hopefully, that she is safe.
It's dangerous enough to meet someone in the same city. Bad advice.
If she can't be totally honest with her parents, she's not mature enough to be doing shit like this. I don't see any details about her actually having somewhere else to stay, or having a lot of contacts in France, people who could help her, and look out for her.
I love Dan, and usually I agree with him, but if he had given this advice to my daughter, I'd freak. I'd want her to be honest, and I might not agree with her, but if she were an adult, I'd let her go, but at least talk to her about the best route to take, how to play it safe, and stay in touch with me so I know where she is, and hopefully, that she is safe.
It's dangerous enough to meet someone in the same city. Bad advice.
23
She is an adult; her parents do not need to know that she is having sex, nor with whom. If your mother or father has a one night stand, do you want to know all the juicy where/when/who details? What about your brother or sister? No? Then congratulations, you're not a creepy asshole with boundary issues. Parents who want to know those kinds of details about their grown children's sex lives are creepy assholes with boundary issues. As long as she tells them where she's going, she has fulfilled her obligation to them.
24
FIRST of all everyone, she started off Letter one by saying the situation was HYPOTHETICAL. So it can be whatever way she describes, it's hypothetical, not reality. Other than that, agree with @6 and @10.
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