Wednesday, July 8, 2009
News Black Kids Kicked Out of Pool
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:10 PM
This is outrageous:
More than 60 campers from Northeast Philadelphia were turned away from a private swim club and left to wonder if their race was the reason.... The Creative Steps Day Camp paid more than $1900 to The Valley Swim Club. The Valley Swim Club is a private club that advertises open membership. But the campers' first visit to the pool suggested otherwise.
"When the minority children got in the pool all of the Caucasian children immediately exited the pool," Horace Gibson, parent of a day camp child, wrote in an email. "The pool attendants came and told the black children that they did not allow minorities in the club and needed the children to leave immediately."The next day the club told the camp director that the camp's membership was being suspended and their money would be refunded.... Campers remain unsure why they're no longer welcome.
The kids are "left to wonder" if they were asked to leave because of their race? Campers "unsure why" they're not welcome? Really? Because it seemed pretty fucking obvious that race was the reason why these kids were asked to leave. What part of "they did not allow minorities in the club" did this reporter not understand? And then there's the insanely racist statement released by John Duesler, President of The Valley Swim Club, about the incident:
"There was concern that a lot of kids would change the complexion … and the atmosphere of the club."
Why on earth does the reporter—Karen Araiza go out of her way to suggest that there might be some doubt about what happened? Why do mainstream news operations have such a hang-up about simple statements of fact? Here's the lead this story needed: "Swim club run by racist assholes asks black kids to leave." And here's the club's contact info if you need to get something of your chest:
The Valley Swim Club
P.O. Box 134, Huntingdon Valley, PA 19006
215-947-0700
info@thevalleyclub.com
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1
That shit disgusts me more than anything. What are those parents teaching their children?
"When the minority children got in the pool all of the Caucasian children immediately exited the pool,"
That shit disgusts me more than anything. What are those parents teaching their children?
5
I just sent them a nice note:
"Your club is such a disappointment. It’s 2009 and Racism is alive and prospering at the Valley Club. Clean up your act. The eyes of the world are looking at you."
"Your club is such a disappointment. It’s 2009 and Racism is alive and prospering at the Valley Club. Clean up your act. The eyes of the world are looking at you."
8
This is Philadelphia, a city known for it's race relations problems. And North Philly is the poor and black part of town, so to me I'd actually be surprised if a nice private club there wasn't racist.
10
Yes, because the administrators of a private club in Pennsylvania care what I think about how they run their shit.
There are two federal laws that address this problem pretty directly. Frankly, short of hoping that the Justice Department lands on these fuckers with both feet, it's really none of my business what people in Pennsylvania are doing. Because why? Because try it the other way around -- do you want people in Utah trying to influence how private clubs in Seattle operate? No you don't.
And here's the club's contact info if you need to get something of your chest:
Yes, because the administrators of a private club in Pennsylvania care what I think about how they run their shit.
There are two federal laws that address this problem pretty directly. Frankly, short of hoping that the Justice Department lands on these fuckers with both feet, it's really none of my business what people in Pennsylvania are doing. Because why? Because try it the other way around -- do you want people in Utah trying to influence how private clubs in Seattle operate? No you don't.
12
It's because of that stupid logical fallacy ("false gray zone" or whatever it's called) where people confuse "middle ground" (or "vague") with "objective." Reporters should know better, but sadly very few of them do.
13
@8) North Philly is poor and Black and Puerto Rican. The pool was in Northeast Philly, which is middle-class/upper-middle class and White.
15
Wait. First of all, if you are taking money from community groups for the use of your pool, why would you be allowed to discriminate? Secondly, this isn't about imposing anything on anybody. This is about bigots profiting from their bigotry.
And the pain and hurt this causes children is disgraceful morally. And just for anybody who cares, it's fucking ignorant. If they are a non-profit, their tax status should be questioned.
And the pain and hurt this causes children is disgraceful morally. And just for anybody who cares, it's fucking ignorant. If they are a non-profit, their tax status should be questioned.
16
Meanwhile, "Fox & Friends" host decries miscegenation:
"Kilmeade and two colleagues were discussing a study that, based on research done in Finland and Sweden, showed people who stay married are less likely to suffer from Alzheimer's. Kilmeade questioned the results, though, saying, "We are -- we keep marrying other species and other ethnics and other ..."
At this point, his co-host tried to -- in that jokey morning show way -- tell Kilmeade he needed to shut up, and quick, for his own sake. But he didn't get the message, adding, "See, the problem is the Swedes have pure genes. Because they marry other Swedes .... Finns marry other Finns, so they have a pure society."
Party like it's 1962!
"Kilmeade and two colleagues were discussing a study that, based on research done in Finland and Sweden, showed people who stay married are less likely to suffer from Alzheimer's. Kilmeade questioned the results, though, saying, "We are -- we keep marrying other species and other ethnics and other ..."
At this point, his co-host tried to -- in that jokey morning show way -- tell Kilmeade he needed to shut up, and quick, for his own sake. But he didn't get the message, adding, "See, the problem is the Swedes have pure genes. Because they marry other Swedes .... Finns marry other Finns, so they have a pure society."
Party like it's 1962!
17
The media is hesitating to call this racism because the club used all the right PC buzzwords. "Minorities" instead of "niggers"; "change the complexion" instead of "ruin the club". We've been taught to care more about how people say things than what they're saying. Thus, it's possible to disguise your racism if you're polite about it.
18
Maybe they thought the black kids would LITERALLY "change the complexion" of the pool, by, like, leaking melanin or something.
19
16: I think that's part of a larger pattern. People like Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh et al. are always saying that they're not racist, not by any means; they just have practical reasons to oppose civil rights legislation and equal opportunity housing and the like. You just know that they're struggling every day to keep their "racial purity" shit inside, like that host failed to do.
20
Were all of the kids black? Was this part of some program to get black kids to learn how to swim? It's fairly common knowledge that many blacks do not know how to swim, and is often joked about in the AA community... until the tragic story that is repeated every summer about some black kid drowning in a shallow pool.
Not only would this discrimination be emotionally damaging, it could very well end up being fatal.
Not only would this discrimination be emotionally damaging, it could very well end up being fatal.
21
Shouldn't this be put to a popular vote before some activist judge starts legislating from the bench?
But seriously, this is really sad. And the kids are the ones who lose out because of bigotted adults behaving badly.
But seriously, this is really sad. And the kids are the ones who lose out because of bigotted adults behaving badly.
22
Thought I'd post the email I sent the club:
Hi,
I recently learned of your club. I have a friend who lives near by and I might visit her this summer for a few weeks. I have just one question: would I be welcome? I'm Jewish and reading this article has made me think I might not be allowed to swim in your pool. As you might be aware, Jews have also been barred from private clubs as recently as the 1950s and since you seem to be stuck in that time period, I thought I'd better ask first and visit your fine club only after being officially welcomed.
Thank you,
Hi,
I recently learned of your club. I have a friend who lives near by and I might visit her this summer for a few weeks. I have just one question: would I be welcome? I'm Jewish and reading this article has made me think I might not be allowed to swim in your pool. As you might be aware, Jews have also been barred from private clubs as recently as the 1950s and since you seem to be stuck in that time period, I thought I'd better ask first and visit your fine club only after being officially welcomed.
Thank you,
23
I'm with keshmeshi @1: I'm more disappointed in and saddened by the children's Pavlovian response than the tiny-minded mumblings of pool attendants at a private club.
24
Judah @ 10 -
These attitudes persist in "polite" society because they're tacitly ignored and talked around, e.g. the hinting, backpeddling article Dan posted. I have no shame whatsoever about being "exposed" for condoning alcohol consumption and gay sex (go ahead, Utahans, opine away!) but Valley Swim Club sure as hell won't put PROUDLY RACIST SINCE 1954 above their door. They don't, for example, list "no Negroes in the pool" in their Rules of Operation.
They're a private club; they can do what they want. But holding people accountable for wink-and-nudge racism is a step toward wiping it out.
These attitudes persist in "polite" society because they're tacitly ignored and talked around, e.g. the hinting, backpeddling article Dan posted. I have no shame whatsoever about being "exposed" for condoning alcohol consumption and gay sex (go ahead, Utahans, opine away!) but Valley Swim Club sure as hell won't put PROUDLY RACIST SINCE 1954 above their door. They don't, for example, list "no Negroes in the pool" in their Rules of Operation.
They're a private club; they can do what they want. But holding people accountable for wink-and-nudge racism is a step toward wiping it out.
25
if i was in a pool and a swarm of 60 children of any color immediately descended from a bus in a yelling and jumping and splashing blur, I would get out of the pool, too. I would do the same were they adults or bears. Let's not judge the kids yet.
If the pool attendants ACTUALLY told the kids to leave because "they don't allow minorities in the club," then hell yeah, rain down hell on those morons. But seriously, have you ever seen 5 dozen kids get off a bus at some sort of amusement park? Kids of every color can be fucking obnoxious in groups.
If the pool attendants ACTUALLY told the kids to leave because "they don't allow minorities in the club," then hell yeah, rain down hell on those morons. But seriously, have you ever seen 5 dozen kids get off a bus at some sort of amusement park? Kids of every color can be fucking obnoxious in groups.
26
I'm guessing there's more to this story. First of all, we have it second-hand that the pool attendants said what they allegedly said. Even if they did say it, they're just pool attendants and not in any way official spokespeople for the club.
Secondly, the supposedly outrageous comment by the president, "There was concern that a lot of kids would change the complexion..." I can see how you might read that, but maybe he's just chosen an unfortunate way to say "too many kids (of any race) running around here would change the feel of the place."
And doesn't the quote from the parent, "when the minority children got in the pool all of the Caucasian children immediately exited the pool" seem a little hysterical, and not entirely trustworthy?
I'm not trying to be a dick here, and I have little doubt that this place is run by racist assholes. But that's just my opinion.
It's odd for me to defend the mainstream media, but here I am. In this case, Dan, the reason the media has such a "hang-up about simple statements of fact" is that they actually care about facts, and aren't willing to immediately go for the sensationalist slant like you (very entertainingly) do all the time.
Secondly, the supposedly outrageous comment by the president, "There was concern that a lot of kids would change the complexion..." I can see how you might read that, but maybe he's just chosen an unfortunate way to say "too many kids (of any race) running around here would change the feel of the place."
And doesn't the quote from the parent, "when the minority children got in the pool all of the Caucasian children immediately exited the pool" seem a little hysterical, and not entirely trustworthy?
I'm not trying to be a dick here, and I have little doubt that this place is run by racist assholes. But that's just my opinion.
It's odd for me to defend the mainstream media, but here I am. In this case, Dan, the reason the media has such a "hang-up about simple statements of fact" is that they actually care about facts, and aren't willing to immediately go for the sensationalist slant like you (very entertainingly) do all the time.
28
it's a PRIVATE pool. if there was no mailing to dues-paying members saying "we've rented the pool out to a group for such and such a time on such and such a day", and a busload of kids your kids don't know show up and jump in the pool all at once, maybe you'd think "what the fuck", get out to reconnoiter, and let them have some space.
certainly at our old private pool in Seattle there would be a "what the fuck" moment, because it's goddamn expensive to join, the dues are expensive, and there's a long waiting list. if management rented to an outside group they'd need member approval or there'd be hell to pay.
sure, everybody's predjudiced, but slow your indignant rolls.
certainly at our old private pool in Seattle there would be a "what the fuck" moment, because it's goddamn expensive to join, the dues are expensive, and there's a long waiting list. if management rented to an outside group they'd need member approval or there'd be hell to pay.
sure, everybody's predjudiced, but slow your indignant rolls.
29
This story just seems really fishy to me. I love it how you post the contact info to harass this pool and members of the pool without really knowing the full story too.
30
To all the people defending the club: why did they accept $1900 from a children's day camp to begin with, if they didn't expect a horde of excited children to visit? What were they anticipating when they allowed the Creative Steps camp to join - elderly, maiden aunts?
I agree that we shouldn't take Horace Gibson's word for the racist remarks/actions, per se. But something certainly seems fishy. You'd think if the club President meant to say, "we can't have a crapload of over-excited, screaming kids run in here," he would have said that, instead of an ambiguous and potentially offensive line like "change the complexion."
I agree that we shouldn't take Horace Gibson's word for the racist remarks/actions, per se. But something certainly seems fishy. You'd think if the club President meant to say, "we can't have a crapload of over-excited, screaming kids run in here," he would have said that, instead of an ambiguous and potentially offensive line like "change the complexion."
32
#10: I would absolutely want people in Philadelphia raising a stink about a racist club in Seattle. Racism isn't any better just because it happens "over there".
35
I like 25's point -- if I were in a pool and sixty kids of any race came swarming in, I'd leave.
That said, there has to be something missing from this story. I wonder if the pool attendant -- hardly an authority figure at a private club -- just really hated his job and was trying to cause trouble for his (most likely now former) workplace.
That said, there has to be something missing from this story. I wonder if the pool attendant -- hardly an authority figure at a private club -- just really hated his job and was trying to cause trouble for his (most likely now former) workplace.
36
I'm sorry, what year are we in? Any chance we could get the Obama kids or the Cosby kids to pay a visit, see if they change the complexion of the club.
37
Dan, like many of us, automatically believes what he wants to believe. All we have here is secondhand information that sounds more than a bit fishy. I don't blame the reporter for hedging, rather than calling for an all-out web-based jihad against the club.
40
Ok, Philly native here to edumacate. North Philly is primarily poor and black. Northeast Philly is mostly white, catholic and working class. Huntingdon Valley is middle class, white *suburbs*.
True, Philly is sadly often racially divided by neighborhood, but I must say, at least we HAVE diversity in our city. Love ya and all, Seattle, and your city is way more beautiful than Philly, but where the heck are all the Blacks, Italians, Jews, Puerto Ricans, etc? Philly has problems with racial relations, yes, but that's because there are actual sizable populations of different races who live there so it's inevitable. Ya know, like, diversity. Seattle is by far the whitest place I've ever lived. So pointing the finger at Philly as being racist is basically bullshit, if you ask me, since you lilywhite folks don't really have to deal with real, day-to-day issues of race relations.
True, Philly is sadly often racially divided by neighborhood, but I must say, at least we HAVE diversity in our city. Love ya and all, Seattle, and your city is way more beautiful than Philly, but where the heck are all the Blacks, Italians, Jews, Puerto Ricans, etc? Philly has problems with racial relations, yes, but that's because there are actual sizable populations of different races who live there so it's inevitable. Ya know, like, diversity. Seattle is by far the whitest place I've ever lived. So pointing the finger at Philly as being racist is basically bullshit, if you ask me, since you lilywhite folks don't really have to deal with real, day-to-day issues of race relations.
41
For anyone who has ever lived in Philadelphia, this story is entirely one hundred percent believable without so much as batting an eye. Philly is truly one terrifically fucked up place.
Weird thing I noticed living in Philly: in personal ads and online profiles and such among teh gays, a lot of guys will identify their ethnic group and specify that they are primarily interested in only meeting other members of that ethnic group. E.g. "Irish dude in the Northeast looking for chill guys also Irish to hang with and whatever."
I swear! And not infrequently when I'd be out in bars or whatever, the opening line would be, "What are you?" (Never an easy question for Russian-German-Dutch-Welsh-English-French-Native American me to field.)
So no. No problem believing that in 2009, with Barrack Obama in the White House, this is what went down in Philadelphia.
Oh, and by the way, Huntington Valley, the club's address, is in a white flight enclave right outside of Philadelphia.
Weird thing I noticed living in Philly: in personal ads and online profiles and such among teh gays, a lot of guys will identify their ethnic group and specify that they are primarily interested in only meeting other members of that ethnic group. E.g. "Irish dude in the Northeast looking for chill guys also Irish to hang with and whatever."
I swear! And not infrequently when I'd be out in bars or whatever, the opening line would be, "What are you?" (Never an easy question for Russian-German-Dutch-Welsh-English-French-Native American me to field.)
So no. No problem believing that in 2009, with Barrack Obama in the White House, this is what went down in Philadelphia.
Oh, and by the way, Huntington Valley, the club's address, is in a white flight enclave right outside of Philadelphia.
42
One thing this calls to mind is the public pool I used to work at way back in the day. We would have 60 kid day camps come in and dump their kids on us for hours on end, with maybe 3 supervisors, who would just lay in the sun and let us (the lifeguards) deal with them. We actually had a near drowning and the day camp sued us, but they ended up being at fault for not having enough supervisors in their group. It's very possible that this was actually closer to what happened here.
44
I grew up in an LA suburb in the '80s (La Cañada Flintridge, don't ya know) which was as white as Sierra Nevada snow, contrast with downtown Los Angeles, in which blacks and Koreans hated each other for [ambiguous cultural insensitivities while] shopping in each others' neighborhood produce markets. LA city is as racially diverse a Babylon as Sesame Street.
That said, I could imagine dirty looks being given to a darker-than-gothy-pale family hanging out at the country club swimming pool (assuming they could get access to it in the first place). But this was the late '70s, early '80s. Pools in neighboring regions, such as that in the Glendale YWCA or Pasadena City College were as speckled as they come.
That said, I could imagine dirty looks being given to a darker-than-gothy-pale family hanging out at the country club swimming pool (assuming they could get access to it in the first place). But this was the late '70s, early '80s. Pools in neighboring regions, such as that in the Glendale YWCA or Pasadena City College were as speckled as they come.
45
@40 Thank you for that perspective.
Seriously, having grown up in the Deep South, riding a schoolbus for an hour and a half each way, in order to go to desegregated schools, I just HAVE to chuckle when Seattleites get all up in arms about racism.
Black/white relations is little more than an academic topic here.
Hell, even the white supremacists here are a fucking joke, a fact for which I'm grateful.
It's much easier to unconditionally love or hate others when you rarely encounter them.
I suspect many of you smugly enlightened Capitol Hill residents would have fled that pool or discreetly pulled your own kids out.
Seriously, having grown up in the Deep South, riding a schoolbus for an hour and a half each way, in order to go to desegregated schools, I just HAVE to chuckle when Seattleites get all up in arms about racism.
Black/white relations is little more than an academic topic here.
Hell, even the white supremacists here are a fucking joke, a fact for which I'm grateful.
It's much easier to unconditionally love or hate others when you rarely encounter them.
I suspect many of you smugly enlightened Capitol Hill residents would have fled that pool or discreetly pulled your own kids out.
46
@ 45,
Seattlites would have fled the pool because they were kids....not 'cause they were black kids. They do not swim with children of any color because of pee-pee and kid-hating issues.
Seattlites would have fled the pool because they were kids....not 'cause they were black kids. They do not swim with children of any color because of pee-pee and kid-hating issues.
47
It might seem immoral, but it's not illegal. As a private club they have every right to exclude blacks. It was rude as hell to TELL the kids, that they were being sent away for being minorities, but not all that surprising. There is probably a clause in the contract with the day camp giving them full rights to revoke the camp's privileges for whatever reason they want. I'm not saying I agree, because I'd have been pretty angry to have been kicked out of that pool, but as a minority, having grown up nearby, I'd have been expecting it.
48
#45 - you all act like us Seattleites have never lived anywhere else, that we've never experienced racism first-hand or lived somewhere with startling and disturbing racial divisions. Is your experience more valid than mine just because you currently live in a city with "real racism" and I moved away from one a year ago? Just because it's not a part of daily life here in Seattle, doesn't mean I can't have an opinion.
49
@41: I'm from Philly, too, born and raised. And I disagree that Philly is one fucked-up place and I think this story is unbelievable, racist, and disgusting. I do agree that Philly is more racist than Seattle, and Philly has to deal w/ daily race relations a million times more than Seattle does, and yes, old-money Philly folks can be gross.
But a lot of Philadelphians have pride about the city's diversity and its long history of racial tolerance that dates back centuries. This would have never happened at any pool I swam in, and no matter how you justify or explain it, it's completely awful.
I'm writing a letter or two.
But a lot of Philadelphians have pride about the city's diversity and its long history of racial tolerance that dates back centuries. This would have never happened at any pool I swam in, and no matter how you justify or explain it, it's completely awful.
I'm writing a letter or two.
50
@40 & other Philly types
How many Philly folks can tell the difference between Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Vietnamese, Filipino, and Cambodian? (to name a few)
Seattlites can, because we have HUGE communities of each in the greater Puget Sound area. Maybe you never cared to look, or they are all just "orientals" to you.
Racism isn't always about black & white.
How many Philly folks can tell the difference between Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Vietnamese, Filipino, and Cambodian? (to name a few)
Seattlites can, because we have HUGE communities of each in the greater Puget Sound area. Maybe you never cared to look, or they are all just "orientals" to you.
Racism isn't always about black & white.
51
Well. Look at the logic here.
Dan looks at the statements of parents, kids, and president of the club, and concludes that the kids were kicked out because of racism.
Commenters criticize him for jumping to conclusions, and then suggest that maybe:
1. It's just because they were a bunch of kids and you'd get out of the pool, too (which doesn't explain why their membership was canceled, and contradicts the kids' statements).
2. The kids and their parents are untrustworthy, hysterical liars.
3. The pool attendant just hated his job and has probably already been fired. (???)
4. Even though Philly is racially divided, it's also racially diverse, so all you "smugly enlightened", "lilywhite" Seattleites are hypocrites to cry racism because you don't "have to deal with real, day-to-day issues of race relations." (The "I'm not racist, but you'd be racist, too, if you lived here! defense.)
My conclusion based on all of this? The kids were kicked out because of racism.
Dan looks at the statements of parents, kids, and president of the club, and concludes that the kids were kicked out because of racism.
Commenters criticize him for jumping to conclusions, and then suggest that maybe:
1. It's just because they were a bunch of kids and you'd get out of the pool, too (which doesn't explain why their membership was canceled, and contradicts the kids' statements).
2. The kids and their parents are untrustworthy, hysterical liars.
3. The pool attendant just hated his job and has probably already been fired. (???)
4. Even though Philly is racially divided, it's also racially diverse, so all you "smugly enlightened", "lilywhite" Seattleites are hypocrites to cry racism because you don't "have to deal with real, day-to-day issues of race relations." (The "I'm not racist, but you'd be racist, too, if you lived here! defense.)
My conclusion based on all of this? The kids were kicked out because of racism.
52
Here is the story from the Phila. Inquirer, the biggest local news paper-- some facts seem to be different than Dan posted, including the neighborhood the kids were from.
"Phila. camp alleges racism at Montco swim club
By Zoe Tillman
INQUIRER STAFF WRITER
A Huntington Valley swim club is facing accusations of racial discrimination after 65 children from a Northeast Philadelphia day camp claim they heard prejudicial remarks by club members and later had their club membership rescinded.
The children, kindgergarten through 7th graders who attend the Creative Steps, Inc. day camp, showed up to the pool at The Valley Swim Club on June 29.
While the campers were swimming, Alethea Wright, executive director of Creative Steps, said three children came up to her and said they heard club members asking what African Americans were doing at the club.
Repeated attempts to reach club President John Duesler and other club officers were unsuccessful. A Philadelphia Inquirer reporter was asked to leave the club premises when he asked for a comment. NBC 10 reported today that Duesler made the following statement: "There was concern that alot of kids would change the complexion .....and the atmosphere of the club."
Several days after the incident, Wright said the camp's $1,950 check in membership fees to the swim club was refunded, meaning the children no longer had access to the pool. She said Duesler did not provide a reason for the refund."
Still crappy, but I'm assuming we still don't know all the details.
"Phila. camp alleges racism at Montco swim club
By Zoe Tillman
INQUIRER STAFF WRITER
A Huntington Valley swim club is facing accusations of racial discrimination after 65 children from a Northeast Philadelphia day camp claim they heard prejudicial remarks by club members and later had their club membership rescinded.
The children, kindgergarten through 7th graders who attend the Creative Steps, Inc. day camp, showed up to the pool at The Valley Swim Club on June 29.
While the campers were swimming, Alethea Wright, executive director of Creative Steps, said three children came up to her and said they heard club members asking what African Americans were doing at the club.
Repeated attempts to reach club President John Duesler and other club officers were unsuccessful. A Philadelphia Inquirer reporter was asked to leave the club premises when he asked for a comment. NBC 10 reported today that Duesler made the following statement: "There was concern that alot of kids would change the complexion .....and the atmosphere of the club."
Several days after the incident, Wright said the camp's $1,950 check in membership fees to the swim club was refunded, meaning the children no longer had access to the pool. She said Duesler did not provide a reason for the refund."
Still crappy, but I'm assuming we still don't know all the details.
53
Well #48, in fact, most Seattleites haven't lived back East, and do not know what it's like.
It doesn't mean Seattleites can't have an opinion. Just that it's not that well informed. They don't know what it's like back east that much, and tend to make assumptions.
Just like people back east -- most of whom've never even been to Seattle -- might just ASSUME that all Seattleites are all kumbaya all the time, don't like to make decisions, are all tree huggers, obsessing about recycling and "being a little bit different," and....
oh wait....
It doesn't mean Seattleites can't have an opinion. Just that it's not that well informed. They don't know what it's like back east that much, and tend to make assumptions.
Just like people back east -- most of whom've never even been to Seattle -- might just ASSUME that all Seattleites are all kumbaya all the time, don't like to make decisions, are all tree huggers, obsessing about recycling and "being a little bit different," and....
oh wait....
55
@50
Sorry, friend. We've got plenty of Asians back in Philly too and it's quite easy to tell the difference. Nice try though. The only population I've come across in Seattle that I hadn't known back in Philly were people from the South Pacific - Tongans, etc.
Philly is a wonderfully diverse and interesting place with a ton of character and history. Way more personality than Seattle. And the people are a lot more real there. None of this phony, passive-aggressive, uptight, "polite" crap you've got in Seattle. That being said, Philly is dirty as hell, super crime-ridden, and lacking in natural beauty so I got out. Better people though, for sure.
Sorry, friend. We've got plenty of Asians back in Philly too and it's quite easy to tell the difference. Nice try though. The only population I've come across in Seattle that I hadn't known back in Philly were people from the South Pacific - Tongans, etc.
Philly is a wonderfully diverse and interesting place with a ton of character and history. Way more personality than Seattle. And the people are a lot more real there. None of this phony, passive-aggressive, uptight, "polite" crap you've got in Seattle. That being said, Philly is dirty as hell, super crime-ridden, and lacking in natural beauty so I got out. Better people though, for sure.
57
This swim club is only 15 minutes from my house. I'm shocked at the actions of the owner. That people would still say things like that is horrible. Those poor kids, I'm going to try and get the members of this club to cancel their membership. And for the record the swim club isn''t in NE Philly, its in the suburbs, Montgomery County.
Also North Philadelphia has its problems, but I love it. I lived there for the last 3 years and it has a lot of different types of people living there, many of whom are nice middle class people trying to get by. The row houses are really well built and the area has a lot of energy and spirit.
As for Seattle, why don't you work on your complete lack of affordable housing before you criticize Philadelphia for its racial problems.
Also North Philadelphia has its problems, but I love it. I lived there for the last 3 years and it has a lot of different types of people living there, many of whom are nice middle class people trying to get by. The row houses are really well built and the area has a lot of energy and spirit.
As for Seattle, why don't you work on your complete lack of affordable housing before you criticize Philadelphia for its racial problems.
58
26 How mindful of you.
40 "True, Philly is sadly often racially divided by neighborhood, but I must say, at least we HAVE diversity in our city."
Yes, and those neighborhoods have been racially divided by African Americans, because they have sought to segregate themselves, everybody knows it right? Erase the fact that those blacks, and other people of color are the ones who have to deal daily with all the bullsht put out by those mostly white, "working class" (cause we know African Americans are not part of the working class), sometimes at the cost of their lives. But you know, if one makes the effort to distort reality like you have, one can come to see how it's those working class (caucasian) Phillies the ones who need to fear those "poor and black" (non-working negroes, according to your ilk) who have just arrived in Philadelphia to *gasp* change the feel of the place. Cause the feel of the place has nothing to do with people of color, lets forget who were the ones who with their labor, sweat, tears and pain built that city in the days of its founding. So much for "race relations".
Go join 26, for a night out in the town. Something tells me the two of you would have a jolly ol'time with some hoods over you heads.
40 "True, Philly is sadly often racially divided by neighborhood, but I must say, at least we HAVE diversity in our city."
Yes, and those neighborhoods have been racially divided by African Americans, because they have sought to segregate themselves, everybody knows it right? Erase the fact that those blacks, and other people of color are the ones who have to deal daily with all the bullsht put out by those mostly white, "working class" (cause we know African Americans are not part of the working class), sometimes at the cost of their lives. But you know, if one makes the effort to distort reality like you have, one can come to see how it's those working class (caucasian) Phillies the ones who need to fear those "poor and black" (non-working negroes, according to your ilk) who have just arrived in Philadelphia to *gasp* change the feel of the place. Cause the feel of the place has nothing to do with people of color, lets forget who were the ones who with their labor, sweat, tears and pain built that city in the days of its founding. So much for "race relations".
Go join 26, for a night out in the town. Something tells me the two of you would have a jolly ol'time with some hoods over you heads.
59
Well, I feel horrible for those kids. That situation was handled very poorly by the company. The kids should have been allowed to swim that day, and management from the two companies should have gotten together to discuss nullification of the contract. Instead, this is a news story which will justify what those kids were probably guessing, that the white people didn't want them there... The blacks want equal rights and access. The whites want to be left alone with their culture. Both parties have their arguments. Bottom line is that it was pretty sorry behavior on the part of the pool owners.
I've also experienced more racism in Seattle than I ever experienced growing up in the South... though most people here are nice as well. I wish that everyone would chill out, quit judging so harshly, and just be nice to other people. Instead of saying, "You stupid, racist white bastards!", why not think, "Wow, you people are misguided. I wonder what made you start thinking that way?"
I've also experienced more racism in Seattle than I ever experienced growing up in the South... though most people here are nice as well. I wish that everyone would chill out, quit judging so harshly, and just be nice to other people. Instead of saying, "You stupid, racist white bastards!", why not think, "Wow, you people are misguided. I wonder what made you start thinking that way?"
60
Why are we pretending that a racially biased event in a white suburban neighborhood is some radical deviation from the norm? Of course it's not fuckin cool, but there's a reason most of them moved to Stepford, and it wasn't the kimchi.
This probably happened (and every photo on their website depicts not a single minority), though other than the utterly despicable and cringe-worthy shit all the poor kids had to endure, l'm not sure why everyone's so surprised. l briefly lived in a suburb of Atlanta where they successfully lobbied to prevent public rail transportation (MARTA) from the city. They did so under the guise of bothersome construction, but there were several incidents in which racist gaffes -along the lines of being invaded by minorities and lowering property values- were uttered by residents and local VIPs.
lt's a fucking white, upscale neighborhood, where white upscale assholes move to live with other white upscale assholes, and pretend to be nice to the few well-to-do minorities in the area, but don't invite them to tea parties, and obviously, never to the local watering hole.
Frankly, l would much rather they keep to their bigoted, dead-end, cul-de-sac selves than be all up in my reality. Seattle doesn't see the day-to-day racial issues you find in places like Philly and Atlanta, so naturally, the residents here get pretty pissed off about something like this, when what we should really be focusing that energy on is the rampant and violent homophobia in this town. That's *our* equivalent of a daily hate crime, and hits much closer to home than this poorly researched, second hand story of alleged racism.
ls it fact? Did it actually go down this way? lt probably did. But l'm far more concerned with any hate crime that results in actual violence (especially on my turf), than pathetic ignorance on the part of bland Gucci tennis whores who never should have bred in the first place.
More...
This probably happened (and every photo on their website depicts not a single minority), though other than the utterly despicable and cringe-worthy shit all the poor kids had to endure, l'm not sure why everyone's so surprised. l briefly lived in a suburb of Atlanta where they successfully lobbied to prevent public rail transportation (MARTA) from the city. They did so under the guise of bothersome construction, but there were several incidents in which racist gaffes -along the lines of being invaded by minorities and lowering property values- were uttered by residents and local VIPs.
lt's a fucking white, upscale neighborhood, where white upscale assholes move to live with other white upscale assholes, and pretend to be nice to the few well-to-do minorities in the area, but don't invite them to tea parties, and obviously, never to the local watering hole.
Frankly, l would much rather they keep to their bigoted, dead-end, cul-de-sac selves than be all up in my reality. Seattle doesn't see the day-to-day racial issues you find in places like Philly and Atlanta, so naturally, the residents here get pretty pissed off about something like this, when what we should really be focusing that energy on is the rampant and violent homophobia in this town. That's *our* equivalent of a daily hate crime, and hits much closer to home than this poorly researched, second hand story of alleged racism.
ls it fact? Did it actually go down this way? lt probably did. But l'm far more concerned with any hate crime that results in actual violence (especially on my turf), than pathetic ignorance on the part of bland Gucci tennis whores who never should have bred in the first place.
61
@51 (lrena): "Even though Philly is racially divided, it's also racially diverse, so all you "smugly enlightened", "lilywhite" Seattleites are hypocrites to cry racism because you don't "have to deal with real, day-to-day issues of race relations." (The "I'm not racist, but you'd be racist, too, if you lived here! defense.)"
l don't presume to speak for whomever said this because l don't agree with the personal jabs within, and l don't see the point of arguing about whose city is less or more diverse, and/or racist. lt's sort of stupid ("No, my town's more racist!" "No, MINE!").
But there's some truth to the difference between the type of racism Philly gets, and the type of racism we have here, or the type of racism New York, DC, or Atlanta has. Hell, l lived in small town Texas, where the racism was mostly of the Black vs. Mexican variety; whites and their relationship to the minorities was mostly quite neutral, and really had nothing to do with whatever cultural issues existed.
lt's a valid point; moving to Seattle from Atlanta, was definitely culture shock, and it has nothing to do with an 'l'm not racist, but you would be too' defense. lt's just different, and that's how it is. No better, and if unpleasantly comparable, bad in regionally and culturally different ways.
l don't presume to speak for whomever said this because l don't agree with the personal jabs within, and l don't see the point of arguing about whose city is less or more diverse, and/or racist. lt's sort of stupid ("No, my town's more racist!" "No, MINE!").
But there's some truth to the difference between the type of racism Philly gets, and the type of racism we have here, or the type of racism New York, DC, or Atlanta has. Hell, l lived in small town Texas, where the racism was mostly of the Black vs. Mexican variety; whites and their relationship to the minorities was mostly quite neutral, and really had nothing to do with whatever cultural issues existed.
lt's a valid point; moving to Seattle from Atlanta, was definitely culture shock, and it has nothing to do with an 'l'm not racist, but you would be too' defense. lt's just different, and that's how it is. No better, and if unpleasantly comparable, bad in regionally and culturally different ways.
62
I'm sure they were misquoted and really said "we don't allow MINORs in the pool".
Yeah, ernmmm, that's it.
I hope. . .
Yeah, ernmmm, that's it.
I hope. . .
63
Also: "zzzZZZZzzz" at all the 'my hometown's racism is better than your hometown racism' and the 'man, you think that's bad, let me tell you...' comments.
Basics facts for those who might know how to use em: Seattle is 74% white, Philly is 43% white/45% black [ FYI:Atlanta is 57% black, NYC is 44% white (and 12% are Jewish); LA is 48% hispanic or latino; Chicago is 35% black; Denver 75% white (woohoo you beat Seattle in the ivorytower/bleach out race *crickets*).]
So, uhm, perhaps non-whitey people are not really a literal minority in Philly -
@46: nailed the uptight seattlite actual response prediction there. You win at internet Slog.
@48: you don't think racism is a part of daily life here? That's quite a trolly statement....
perhaps you can explain this better in person: Meet me at 24th and Union, or perhaps 27th and S. Jackson, at midnight with the same sign Bruce Willis wore in DieHard 3. Or try, if you're not a WASPy cracker, to get into Broadmoor to 'tour the properties'. It's here. Perhaps swept under the rug better. . . . but it's here.
Basics facts for those who might know how to use em: Seattle is 74% white, Philly is 43% white/45% black [ FYI:Atlanta is 57% black, NYC is 44% white (and 12% are Jewish); LA is 48% hispanic or latino; Chicago is 35% black; Denver 75% white (woohoo you beat Seattle in the ivorytower/bleach out race *crickets*).]
So, uhm, perhaps non-whitey people are not really a literal minority in Philly -
@46: nailed the uptight seattlite actual response prediction there. You win at internet Slog.
@48: you don't think racism is a part of daily life here? That's quite a trolly statement....
perhaps you can explain this better in person: Meet me at 24th and Union, or perhaps 27th and S. Jackson, at midnight with the same sign Bruce Willis wore in DieHard 3. Or try, if you're not a WASPy cracker, to get into Broadmoor to 'tour the properties'. It's here. Perhaps swept under the rug better. . . . but it's here.
65
58, but if the kids had been gay it would be okay to kick them out, right? You'd be the first one putting on a hood if the KKK only focused on hating gay people.
67
Hi freikja @61,
I totally agree with your second paragraph, and I get your point about Seattle and Philadelphia being different. My issue here is that those people rushing to defend Philly are misreading Dan's original outrage at the reporter of the story as an attack on the city -- when his real beef is with "mainstream news operations" who seem to be in denial about the realities of race relations in general.
By making this story about Seattle vs Philly, commenters have taken the denial to the next level -- if you're from Seattle, you have no business condemning racism that takes place in other cities. Look at this statement again:
"So pointing the finger at Philly as being racist is basically bullshit, if you ask me, since you lilywhite folks don't really have to deal with real, day-to-day issues of race relations."
The implication is that what happened at this club wasn't racist, it was just an everyday part of life here, which you don't understand, so butt out.
Look, I don't care what city, state, or country you live in. Those kids were treated like second-class citizens because of the colour of their skin, and the way it was reported sweeps that under the rug. People have a right--even a duty--to point that out.
I totally agree with your second paragraph, and I get your point about Seattle and Philadelphia being different. My issue here is that those people rushing to defend Philly are misreading Dan's original outrage at the reporter of the story as an attack on the city -- when his real beef is with "mainstream news operations" who seem to be in denial about the realities of race relations in general.
By making this story about Seattle vs Philly, commenters have taken the denial to the next level -- if you're from Seattle, you have no business condemning racism that takes place in other cities. Look at this statement again:
"So pointing the finger at Philly as being racist is basically bullshit, if you ask me, since you lilywhite folks don't really have to deal with real, day-to-day issues of race relations."
The implication is that what happened at this club wasn't racist, it was just an everyday part of life here, which you don't understand, so butt out.
Look, I don't care what city, state, or country you live in. Those kids were treated like second-class citizens because of the colour of their skin, and the way it was reported sweeps that under the rug. People have a right--even a duty--to point that out.
68
"Ya know, like, diversity. Seattle is by far the whitest place I've ever lived"
That's why we're so tolerant! It's easy to be tolerant from a distance plus the queers are pushing all blacks out of the CD and they're moving to Kent....just follow the sounds of gunfire. Here in the Great White North of Seattle (QA, Madison Park and North of the Ship Canal, south of 85th) we're very tolerant of Obama bumper stickers, we let them on any race of Subaru.
"Maybe you never cared to look, or they are all just "orientals" to you. Racism isn't always about black & white."
I agree, lots of white guys in Seattle like to f*ck Asian girls! Which is understandable when you see how ugly the white chicks are here.
"Way more personality than Seattle."
Hee hee...the Wonder Bread of cities.
That's why we're so tolerant! It's easy to be tolerant from a distance plus the queers are pushing all blacks out of the CD and they're moving to Kent....just follow the sounds of gunfire. Here in the Great White North of Seattle (QA, Madison Park and North of the Ship Canal, south of 85th) we're very tolerant of Obama bumper stickers, we let them on any race of Subaru.
"Maybe you never cared to look, or they are all just "orientals" to you. Racism isn't always about black & white."
I agree, lots of white guys in Seattle like to f*ck Asian girls! Which is understandable when you see how ugly the white chicks are here.
"Way more personality than Seattle."
Hee hee...the Wonder Bread of cities.
69
@40: No one here is obligated to be silent about reported discrimination elsewhere just because you think Seattle is too white. This isn't a dick-measuring contest.
70
"just because you think Seattle is too white."
But it helps explain why Seattlites are so tolerant.
But it helps explain why Seattlites are so tolerant.
71
My guess is that it wasn't the color of their skin for which they were kicked out, but rather their ACTIONS while in the pool. Hmmm? Anyone else ever consider this possibility?
72
And one more comment...someone mentioned something about the Cosby or Obama kids. My guess is that if a group of 60 "Cosby" or "Obama" kids showed up (or more specifically, a group of 60 black kids who acted with the same behavior that one would come to expect from the "Cosby" or "Obama" kids), that there would be no need for them to be kicked out....
74
I LIVE IN LOWER MORELAND. I AM HUMILIATED AT ALL OF THIS. FIRST THEY HATED THE JEWS THAT MOVED INTO THEIR PRECIOUS HV/LM AND NOW THIS. HOW RACIST
CAN YOU GET. I AM HUMILIATED!!!!
CAN YOU GET. I AM HUMILIATED!!!!
75
I re read the comments on here . You are comparing Philly with Seattle. LMAO. what is that about!! there is NO comparison. I see no anaologies there., rather i see total ignorance! THIS DID NOT OCCUR IN THE CITY!!!!!!
THIS OCCURED IN AN ALL WHITE AFFLUENT AREA. You need to get your facts
in order first. Racial Profiling etc. is a great Joy for the Lower Moreland Police and the area. Racism. bigotry. etc. cannot be tolerated anymore
in this country!! WE all bleed red no matter what our skin color is. Living in Lower Moreland for years I saw how things progressed there.......there was NO progression and obviously the county has
not moved a bit in the direction of equality. It is not ALL ABOUT THE MONEY... it is about humanity!!!!
THIS OCCURED IN AN ALL WHITE AFFLUENT AREA. You need to get your facts
in order first. Racial Profiling etc. is a great Joy for the Lower Moreland Police and the area. Racism. bigotry. etc. cannot be tolerated anymore
in this country!! WE all bleed red no matter what our skin color is. Living in Lower Moreland for years I saw how things progressed there.......there was NO progression and obviously the county has
not moved a bit in the direction of equality. It is not ALL ABOUT THE MONEY... it is about humanity!!!!
76
The pool in question is NOT in Philadelphia, but in Huntingdon Valley, which is a very affluent suburb northeast of the city. The club probably includes many members who fled the city and closer-in suburbs when they became too Black and Asian. Pair self-important snobbism with racism, and this is what you get. They haven't learned that you can't keep running.
77
this story is going to turn out to be utter bullshit. I feel bad for the lifeguards who are making $5 bucks an hour that are in the middle of this, and probably getting death threats at this point.
http://www.thevalleyclub.com/
http://www.thevalleyclub.com/
78
"My guess is that it wasn't the color of their skin for which they were kicked out, but rather their ACTIONS while in the pool."
My guess is that the kids weren't even allowed to get wet.
My guess is that the kids weren't even allowed to get wet.
79
" ... the club: why did they accept $1900 from a children's day camp to begin with, if they didn't expect a horde of excited children to visit? "
That is a very good question. If they are racists, which they may be, then it was a stupid move.
As someone else pointed out, even if they are not racists, which they may not be, allowing 60 kids to show up and jump in the pool as a group would also be a stupid move.
Banning a entire group of kids as a whole after signing a contract with them to allow them to use the pool, is even a more stupid move.
Might the folks who contracted on behalf of the visiting clubs kids be using the kids for their own politically correct purposes to make them ( the visiting kids ) appear to be the victims of racial discrimination - absolutely, the Reverend Al Sharpton and the Reverend Jesse Jackson made their reputations that same way.
That is a very good question. If they are racists, which they may be, then it was a stupid move.
As someone else pointed out, even if they are not racists, which they may not be, allowing 60 kids to show up and jump in the pool as a group would also be a stupid move.
Banning a entire group of kids as a whole after signing a contract with them to allow them to use the pool, is even a more stupid move.
Might the folks who contracted on behalf of the visiting clubs kids be using the kids for their own politically correct purposes to make them ( the visiting kids ) appear to be the victims of racial discrimination - absolutely, the Reverend Al Sharpton and the Reverend Jesse Jackson made their reputations that same way.
80
Statement posted on "The Valley Club" web site at http://www.thevalleyclub.com/
"The Valley Club is deeply troubled by the recent allegations of racism which are completely untrue.
We had originally agreed to invite the camps to use our facility, knowing full well that the children from the camps were from multi-ethnic backgrounds. Unfortunately, we quickly learned that we underestimated the capacity of our facilities and realized that we could not accommodate the number of children from these camps. All funds were returned to the camps and we will re-evaluate the issue at a later date to determine whether it can be feasible in the future.
Our Valley Club deplores discrimination in any form, as is evidenced by our multi-ethnic and diverse membership. Whatever comments may or may not have been made by an individual member is an opinion not shared by The Valley Club Board. "
"The Valley Club is deeply troubled by the recent allegations of racism which are completely untrue.
We had originally agreed to invite the camps to use our facility, knowing full well that the children from the camps were from multi-ethnic backgrounds. Unfortunately, we quickly learned that we underestimated the capacity of our facilities and realized that we could not accommodate the number of children from these camps. All funds were returned to the camps and we will re-evaluate the issue at a later date to determine whether it can be feasible in the future.
Our Valley Club deplores discrimination in any form, as is evidenced by our multi-ethnic and diverse membership. Whatever comments may or may not have been made by an individual member is an opinion not shared by The Valley Club Board. "
81
Well at least they are smart enough to deny they are racists and deplore discrimination.
The bottom line here is 60 kids are not swimming this summer even though they had a contract which allowed them to do so once a week.
Apparently the club did not seem it important enough to deplore that result of their abruptly canceling the contract.
The bottom line here is 60 kids are not swimming this summer even though they had a contract which allowed them to do so once a week.
Apparently the club did not seem it important enough to deplore that result of their abruptly canceling the contract.
82
A Letter to The Valley Club
The news recently reported what happened to those Black and Latino children who were told that they were not wanted or welcomed at your club. I know that as a Black Man I am - more often that I would care to be - judged by the color of my skin than the "contents of my character".
I have come to accept - although reluctantly - that there are ignorant people who know nothing of me but choose to judge me by my skin color or by the misdeeds of some members of my race
I do not and will not, except that children who have not yet begun to really live their lives should have to deal with ignorant, biased and probably close minded people that the membership of your club seems to reflect. Although I do not live in Philadelphia I will make it my duty to spread the word about the blatant racism, disrespect and mistreatment shown by members of your "club" to these children to all people of goodwill - including local radio and talk show hosts.
In addition, I will continue to teach my children not to judge people by the color of their skin but how these people in turn treat them. I will also let my children know that knowing people of different races will not change the complexion of their character and the atmosphere of God's given air they breath.
The news recently reported what happened to those Black and Latino children who were told that they were not wanted or welcomed at your club. I know that as a Black Man I am - more often that I would care to be - judged by the color of my skin than the "contents of my character".
I have come to accept - although reluctantly - that there are ignorant people who know nothing of me but choose to judge me by my skin color or by the misdeeds of some members of my race
I do not and will not, except that children who have not yet begun to really live their lives should have to deal with ignorant, biased and probably close minded people that the membership of your club seems to reflect. Although I do not live in Philadelphia I will make it my duty to spread the word about the blatant racism, disrespect and mistreatment shown by members of your "club" to these children to all people of goodwill - including local radio and talk show hosts.
In addition, I will continue to teach my children not to judge people by the color of their skin but how these people in turn treat them. I will also let my children know that knowing people of different races will not change the complexion of their character and the atmosphere of God's given air they breath.
83
"more often that I would care to be - judged by the color of my skin than the "contents of my character".
Except when you want to be a fireman right?
Except when you want to be a fireman right?
84
My mom was kicked out of a "whites only" swimming pool when she was a kid in Kentucky, and the memory has stayed with her for her entire life (she's 77), and totally messed with her head. She's "white" but has black hair, black eyes, and dark skin. Think of what getting kicked out of the pool is going to do to these kids?
85
it's overestimated the pool capacity, and underestimated the impact of that many children, you moron.
86
"When the minority children got in the pool all of the Caucasian children immediately exited the pool,"
Nobody is addressing the real issue here. They were not kicked out because they are black. They were kicked out because they disrupted the pool. Black people tend to travel in herds and black kids can't seem to behave. All of a sudden a herd of 60 loud and obnoxious blacks kids run to a peaceful pool and totally screw up the day for everyone else.
Nobody is addressing the real issue here. They were not kicked out because they are black. They were kicked out because they disrupted the pool. Black people tend to travel in herds and black kids can't seem to behave. All of a sudden a herd of 60 loud and obnoxious blacks kids run to a peaceful pool and totally screw up the day for everyone else.
87
People disgust me. Not just the actions & reactions of the club, but some of the comments above. Black children are less well-behaved than white children? Nice.
BTW: There's a couple of comments above about Seattlelites hating children! Explain please.
BTW: There's a couple of comments above about Seattlelites hating children! Explain please.
88
So many people have their head in the sand. Black kids are less well behaved. That is a simple fact. Asl any school teacher or cop who work in a black area. I also think that black people in general are racist and like to antagonize white people.
I was on a cruise recently. On this cruise there may have been 300 blacks out of 3000 passengers. The blacks travelled around in herds. When they went to the pool they went in in herds. They were loud and obnoxious and were splashing water everywhere.
So another poster ponders how these white kids were raised to get out of the pool when the blacks showed up. I'll tell you how; white kids are raised to be respectful of others and behave in public. When the herd of black kids showed up, they were driven from the pool.
It is time to stop trying to make everyone the same. Blacks and whites are not the same. We have different cultures and different lives. We choose to live separately and socialize separately. And yes, black people are very much racist.
I was on a cruise recently. On this cruise there may have been 300 blacks out of 3000 passengers. The blacks travelled around in herds. When they went to the pool they went in in herds. They were loud and obnoxious and were splashing water everywhere.
So another poster ponders how these white kids were raised to get out of the pool when the blacks showed up. I'll tell you how; white kids are raised to be respectful of others and behave in public. When the herd of black kids showed up, they were driven from the pool.
It is time to stop trying to make everyone the same. Blacks and whites are not the same. We have different cultures and different lives. We choose to live separately and socialize separately. And yes, black people are very much racist.
89
watch the news stories, the black children were not behaving badly! the group had their own supervisors and the exclusive club has TWO pools---one just for kids.
So everyone who blames the kids--you can stop now. the interview footage shows the KIDS, not the parents (who may not have been there) saying they heard people asking "what are these black kids doing HERE?"
My father was a racist, a bigot and a misognyist...why? becuse no one taught him any better. I knew it was wrong and embarrassing so I did better and taught my kids better. When my dad came to my house to visit and dropped the n-word in passing conversation, I let kim know that wasn't acceptable in my house or in front of my kids. I didn't try to change his views or tell him he couldn't be what he wanted--i just set some simple boundaries for behavior that I would accept from those around me. It is the 21st century, we all KNOW better...isn't it time we DO better?
PS-If you come on the internet and spew venom and hate and filthbecause you are anonymous, you are requiring so little of yourself. Act with dignity people, freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom to harm. Everyone is so entitled here, we should do more to ask ourselves "what are my responsibilites to my fellow person?" not "I haVe free speech so I can trample all over your personal dignity to justify my own beliefs." And before you tell me I am unamerican--know that my husband and I were BOTH in the first Gulf War.
Sorry if you don't like my comments, but I vowed to give to give MY LIFE to support YOUR RIGHT TO SIT AT HOME ON THE COMPUTER AND SPEW HATE, and have my own opinion as to who is a better HUMAN BEING.
So everyone who blames the kids--you can stop now. the interview footage shows the KIDS, not the parents (who may not have been there) saying they heard people asking "what are these black kids doing HERE?"
My father was a racist, a bigot and a misognyist...why? becuse no one taught him any better. I knew it was wrong and embarrassing so I did better and taught my kids better. When my dad came to my house to visit and dropped the n-word in passing conversation, I let kim know that wasn't acceptable in my house or in front of my kids. I didn't try to change his views or tell him he couldn't be what he wanted--i just set some simple boundaries for behavior that I would accept from those around me. It is the 21st century, we all KNOW better...isn't it time we DO better?
PS-If you come on the internet and spew venom and hate and filthbecause you are anonymous, you are requiring so little of yourself. Act with dignity people, freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom to harm. Everyone is so entitled here, we should do more to ask ourselves "what are my responsibilites to my fellow person?" not "I haVe free speech so I can trample all over your personal dignity to justify my own beliefs." And before you tell me I am unamerican--know that my husband and I were BOTH in the first Gulf War.
Sorry if you don't like my comments, but I vowed to give to give MY LIFE to support YOUR RIGHT TO SIT AT HOME ON THE COMPUTER AND SPEW HATE, and have my own opinion as to who is a better HUMAN BEING.
90
"Why on earth does the reporter—Karen Araiza go out of her way to suggest that there might be some doubt about what happened? Why do mainstream news operations have such a hang-up about simple statements of fact?"
Because it's easier to play up the 'tragedy' of the kids being thrown out of the pool by labeling them with this image of "Oh, they're so innocent and yet they're having this thrown in their faces, it's not fair."
Because it's easier to play up the 'tragedy' of the kids being thrown out of the pool by labeling them with this image of "Oh, they're so innocent and yet they're having this thrown in their faces, it's not fair."
91
"So many people have their head in the sand. Black kids are less well behaved. That is a simple fact."
Do you know who are the worst behaving kids? So called "Christian" kids. They have never been taught how to behave.
Do you know who are the worst behaving kids? So called "Christian" kids. They have never been taught how to behave.
92
When you say "racist"... you must be referring to all-black clubs like BET - black entertainment television?
93
This is a very sad situation for the kids. I've finished ranting and raving -- with not a whole lot of facts to go on. Now I've decided that the best thing I can do right now is send a check to the Girard School which is the bright spot in this story. They are taking all the kids and making sure they have a good summer experience. I suspect they'll need a little extra financial support to make a quick transition into adding a new program. Anyone have the address for Girard?
C
This is a very sad situation for the kids. I've finished ranting and raving -- with not a whole lot of facts to go on. Now I've decided that the best thing I can do right now is send a check to the Girard School which is the bright spot in this story. They are taking all the kids and making sure they have a good summer experience. I suspect they'll need a little extra financial support to make a quick transition into adding a new program. Anyone have the address for Girard?
C
94
Wow, it shocks me every time I read comments about racial issues on Slog.
I moved here four years ago from Ohio, right after the 2004 election. When I first moved here it seemed utopian... at last I'd found my people! So long, Ohio, you red-voting bunch of red-necks! Seattle is filled with nerds and dorks and fags and queers and punks and dykes and ex-Mormans and ex-Catholics... here I'm surrounded by fellow outcast refugees all settled in our promised land.
But every time racial issues are discussed on Slog, there leaks out that insidious, back-handed racism, the kind of racism that comes from people who would never use the n-word, and say "I'm not racist, I have a black friend!" People who claim to "just be stating the facts."
It makes me sad that my chosen home-town, the one I love and will never leave, can be more racist than anything I experienced growing up in Cleveland, a town famous for race-riots. Seriously people.
I moved here four years ago from Ohio, right after the 2004 election. When I first moved here it seemed utopian... at last I'd found my people! So long, Ohio, you red-voting bunch of red-necks! Seattle is filled with nerds and dorks and fags and queers and punks and dykes and ex-Mormans and ex-Catholics... here I'm surrounded by fellow outcast refugees all settled in our promised land.
But every time racial issues are discussed on Slog, there leaks out that insidious, back-handed racism, the kind of racism that comes from people who would never use the n-word, and say "I'm not racist, I have a black friend!" People who claim to "just be stating the facts."
It makes me sad that my chosen home-town, the one I love and will never leave, can be more racist than anything I experienced growing up in Cleveland, a town famous for race-riots. Seriously people.
96
It's easy to be a liberal when it does not cost you anything. Most of the blowhards on here are hypocrites.
97
" Seattle is filled with nerds and dorks and fags and queers and punks and dykes and ex-Mormans and ex-Catholics"
Cap Hill ain't Seattle honey. Grow up.
Cap Hill ain't Seattle honey. Grow up.
98
I love all the "there must be more to this story" posts. As an employment discrimination attorney, and someone with some experience in Philly (don't take my word for it: what say you, Bill Burr? http://www.phillysportsforums.com/forums…), I can tell you that blatant racism exists. One of my favorite studies is this one: http://www.jobbankusa.com/News/Hiring/hi…
The math was black = white + felony.
The math was black = white + felony.
99
black = white + felony is correct. over 75% of adult black men have been involved with the criminal justice system.
100
Not quite the point. "Involved with the criminal justice system" is a silly statement (speeding is a crime, after all). The employment study (from 2001 I believe) suggested that among identically trained and poised men, employers hired black men at similar rates to hiring white men with felonies. In other words, in order for a black man to be as attractive to an employer as a white man, the white needed to be handicapped with a felony conviction.
101
Seattleites are clearly morally superior to other whites, and thus have more right to condemn the racism of other whites. All black folks, please take notice of the moral superiority of the Seattle whites!
Because as we know, when they did have a large population of minorities here, in the Northwest, why the whites here
never, ever, ever
--drove them out,
--took their homes and businesses
--committed riots against them, or
--put them into camps!
Because as we know, when they did have a large population of minorities here, in the Northwest, why the whites here
never, ever, ever
--drove them out,
--took their homes and businesses
--committed riots against them, or
--put them into camps!
102
@88 Do you know who else hangs out in "herds"? White people.
Anyway, using the word "herd" to describe a group of black people suggests that they are animals and not humans. What is the opposite of anthropomorphism? That's what you're doing.
Anyway, using the word "herd" to describe a group of black people suggests that they are animals and not humans. What is the opposite of anthropomorphism? That's what you're doing.
103
mcbfl when you say black people tend to travel in herds and black kids can't seem to behave you're engaging in exactly the kind of spurious racial generalization that is used to justify segregation. Even if you've known ill behaved African American children, how certain are you that their lack of manners stems from their melanin content, or that all kids who grow up in a black American culture are so afflicted?
Granted, It's a natural things for us humans to make such simplistic generalizations, and they've served us well in natural environments to, say, presume all red, yellow and black-striped snakes can kill us (and we've been doing this long enough for less-lethal snakes to develop the same stripes as a defense), but since we've evolved from hunter-gatherers to pluralistic civilizations, its become inappropriate to take such generalizations as truth until grounded in analyzed fact. It's made more difficult since the media often filters our news to confirms these belief systems.
Granted, It's a natural things for us humans to make such simplistic generalizations, and they've served us well in natural environments to, say, presume all red, yellow and black-striped snakes can kill us (and we've been doing this long enough for less-lethal snakes to develop the same stripes as a defense), but since we've evolved from hunter-gatherers to pluralistic civilizations, its become inappropriate to take such generalizations as truth until grounded in analyzed fact. It's made more difficult since the media often filters our news to confirms these belief systems.
104
I love the fact that someone who moved from Philly to Palm Springs (#41) is disparagingly referring to an area "right outside" Philly as a "white flight enclave".
Not every area can be a multi-cultural tapestry of races and socio-economic groups like Palm Springs, you know.
Such nauseating hypocrisy.
Not every area can be a multi-cultural tapestry of races and socio-economic groups like Palm Springs, you know.
Such nauseating hypocrisy.
105
We absolutely do NOT know all the facts in this story, but I do know that many people who suffer guilt and shame over their own racism, however slight it may be, find it cathartic to point fingers and judge others for the same, so it is to be expected that those people would jump on this regardless of knowledge. Eat it up, kiddos! But my take is this:
1. Private clubs should be able to restrict their membership and who comes to their facilities any way they choose. If they want to have a club exclusively for people named "Bob", that should be their right. They're PRIVATE clubs. Just like we enjoy the right to maintain control over who enters our PRIVATE residences. Freedom of association and all that good stuff.
2. If the story is as simplistic as it's presented to us (which I doubt), I would rather be sent away and have my money refunded rather than contribute to a club that does not truly welcome or respect me. It would appear that the club is hurting for money or they wouldn't be renting out the facilities, so any offended parties could have the last laugh really.
3. As someone else said, I would be more than anxious to get out a pool where any group of 60 children just arrived on a bus en masse. In fact, any group of 60 anybodies from Philly would send me towards the door.
4. I would tend to imagine from the naive and self-righteous comments that most commenters here have never been in a situation where a number of whites or Asians start showing up at a club or party that had been predominantly black before the arrival of the whites or Asians. Otherwise you would likely be shrugging your shoulders over this story. It's part of the way of the world.
5. Why the hell did this group choose an INDOOR swimming pool in July anyhow? Aren't those for December? Let the kids be outside in the summertime! It just sounds like poor planning and bad decisions all around.
More...
1. Private clubs should be able to restrict their membership and who comes to their facilities any way they choose. If they want to have a club exclusively for people named "Bob", that should be their right. They're PRIVATE clubs. Just like we enjoy the right to maintain control over who enters our PRIVATE residences. Freedom of association and all that good stuff.
2. If the story is as simplistic as it's presented to us (which I doubt), I would rather be sent away and have my money refunded rather than contribute to a club that does not truly welcome or respect me. It would appear that the club is hurting for money or they wouldn't be renting out the facilities, so any offended parties could have the last laugh really.
3. As someone else said, I would be more than anxious to get out a pool where any group of 60 children just arrived on a bus en masse. In fact, any group of 60 anybodies from Philly would send me towards the door.
4. I would tend to imagine from the naive and self-righteous comments that most commenters here have never been in a situation where a number of whites or Asians start showing up at a club or party that had been predominantly black before the arrival of the whites or Asians. Otherwise you would likely be shrugging your shoulders over this story. It's part of the way of the world.
5. Why the hell did this group choose an INDOOR swimming pool in July anyhow? Aren't those for December? Let the kids be outside in the summertime! It just sounds like poor planning and bad decisions all around.
106
RE: #100. Neither of us has the time to interview everyone coming down the street our way to determine whether they may or may not be hostile. Hence, we make decisions based on how people of certain groups behave from prior experience. If most black adult men have been involved with the justice system (and highly unlikely from just auto stops, whole other conversation since they tend to drive more at night vis a vis other groups), then we come to quick conclusions about the person coming down the street our way. People are pretty smart when it comes to personal safety. This is what is at the core of the pool issue. Ever been in a pool full of black kids? Didn't think so. I have.
107
Wooooaaaah! #106 You said Black adult men seem to travel at night more than other groups.....? WTF? What type of quickly stitched up logic is that? Did some MIT program devote a census group to the shit that's falling out of your ass?
Fuck you.
Fuck you.
110
@97 Huh, I happen to know many of the types I described living far outside the reaches of Capitol Hill, StupidWhiteMen. I'm not naive.
111
I think this story is so sad and Whites really need to face reality and realize this race shit is not getting them any where. Get a fucking grip on LIFE you fucking retarts
113
its not because they are black. if that was the case they wouldn't be let in in the first place. it was because they abused the privilege of going somewhere nice. they ruined their opportunity because they were rude and disrupted the relaxed atmosphere of the club. they likely didn't know any better; they were inner city youth, and if the "how to act when we go to nice places" talk has never been given, they are going to just go horse around. they are kids. that's what kids do unless they are taught better. people need to stop trying to target this country club as racist, because they just don't like kids of any color being disrespectful and obnoxious.
114
we all bleed red or do you bleed blue these are kids we are in the year 2009 not 1960 you rasist asshole children come on i wish it was one of mine you would have a pool or a job
115
I am absolutely disgusted by this. I am from NYC and I currently live in Cheyenne Wyoming where everyone says that they are tolerant. It is easy to be tolerant where 79% percent of the population are White and Republican. There is a great deal of racism in Wyoming, but the thing that bothers me the most is what people see in blacks and in the Latin communities is what they fail to see in their own backyards. I live in a town where drugs, alcoholism and out of wedlock teen pregnancy is prevalent, 36 girls in Central HS alone and that does not count the fathers of the babies. Most of the crimes are committed by Whites and many of the adult women in this town are parents to kids from different fathers. I am a women of mixed race, Black and Spanish Jewish. I do not indulge in alcohol, party all hours of the night and I have one child through a marriage which in this place is something that is rare. I have a degree but cannot find work because when I go in for interviews they see the color of my skin and my Star of David around my neck. I have friends who are here not out of choice but because of military duty, which I may add are mostly black and latin not whites. They serve their country so that most of the whites in this town can blood suck off of the welfare systems.
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