Wednesday, July 1, 2009
Homo / Religion Tug On This
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 11:12 AM
By opening with a bigoted premise—homosexual orientation is in no way comparable to heterosexual orientation—religious bigots like David Klinghoffer are able to arrive at the conclusion that homosexuality is nothing more than an urge toward sinful behavior, like shoplifting or picking your nose or taking the Lord's name in vain. Heterosexuals who act on their attraction to members of the opposite sex? They're seeking love and intimacy and forging or cementing a lasting partner bond. Homosexuals who act on our attraction to members of the same sex? We're merely succumbing to "tugs and temptations." And these gay tugs are to be "transcended," Klinghoffer argues, not "accommodated," and suggesting that a gay person might want to be sexually active for the exact same reasons a straight person is—love, intimacy, pleasure, a partner bond—is "incredibly revealing of the sick times we live in."
Homosexual orientation is a test, David concludes, that sexually active gay people are flunking.
I'm always amused when someone who isn't gay—well, wait a second. I'm presuming here that Klinghoffer isn't another Ted Haggard, i.e. not another closet case with religious hang-ups externalizing his inner conflict. To borrow a line of argument: Who knows what's really going through Klinghoffer's head when he rubs one out or blows a load in the wife? Maybe he's a model "heterosexual"—Klinghoffer does has five children (hey! Ted Haggard has five kids too!)—and maybe he's a wonderful, faithful "husband." Let's stipulate that he is both. Let's run with the assumption that Klinghoffer isn't obsessed with homosexuality for the exact same reason that I am. Let's stipulate that Klinghoffer, unlike Ted Haggard, has never snorted a line of meth off a male escort's asscrack. Let's stipulate that when Klinghoffer bangs the wife he's thinking, "hot pussy, hot pussy, hot pussy," and not, "Joe Jonas, Joe Jonas, Joe Jonas."
Okay: I'm always amused when someone who isn't gay blithely proscribes a lives of celibacy and solitude to those of us who are. A life without intimacy, sexual pleasure, love, and a partner? After you, David. Role model that behavior for me. Leave the wife, swear off sex and love and intimacy and physical pleasure, and remain celibate for the rest of your natural life... and... I'll think about leaving the tugs and temptations of my boyfriend's behind and joining you in misery and solitude.
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1
Exactly. I wonder how a mother or father could want their child to refrain from romantic attachments for the whole of their life. Ouch. I'll take the "F" and enjoy the company of my girlfriend, thanks.
3
Shoplifters are allowed to get married. Nose-pickers are allowed visitation rights in hospitals. People who take the Lord's name in vain can have power of attorney. Even -- GASP! -- Catholics and Jews and Muslims and Mormons have full legal rights. None of Klingonberry's points matter AT ALL.
4
I heard Gabriel Byrne on Fresh Air the other day, and he said something about how he thinks one of the biggest crimes of the Catholic church is its enforcement of celibacy for its clergy - that to deny people the basic necessity, warmth and comfort of human touch and intimacy, he said, is cruel and criminal and insane. He hit the nail on the head.
(He also recited poetry in Gaelic and I almost crashed my car because of the sexy.)
(He also recited poetry in Gaelic and I almost crashed my car because of the sexy.)
5
It always amazes me that their bible and their god are good arguments against our rights, but they don't encode the rest of their bible into law. When was the last time you stoned your neighbor for breaking some archaic law?
You know what? I don't give a fuck if they think I'm going to hell. So fucking what. Just let me give my partner health insurance on the way there, ok?
You know what? I don't give a fuck if they think I'm going to hell. So fucking what. Just let me give my partner health insurance on the way there, ok?
6
Because, like, the gheys are responsible for everything that's wrong in the world, right? Terrorism, the war in Iraq, the economy being in a shambles, murders, rapes . . . Yeah, it's all the fault of the gays.
7
Isn't it obvious that the ONLY type of person who could see this issue in the way he does is a person with homosexual tendencies?
A straight man has no temptation at all, feels no test, just wouldn't even dream of thinking of homosexuality on these terms. This man is telling us in no uncertain terms that he IS tempted and that he is struggling with homosexual tendencies.
Ans at the end of the day he is going home and passing his test by not given in to those tendencies...and if he can/has to do it, then by God all gay people should too. And his only consolation is an earnest belief that all those gay people out there who seem happy being actively gay- will burn in hell.
A straight man has no temptation at all, feels no test, just wouldn't even dream of thinking of homosexuality on these terms. This man is telling us in no uncertain terms that he IS tempted and that he is struggling with homosexual tendencies.
Ans at the end of the day he is going home and passing his test by not given in to those tendencies...and if he can/has to do it, then by God all gay people should too. And his only consolation is an earnest belief that all those gay people out there who seem happy being actively gay- will burn in hell.
8
Only someone who is gay, desperately denying and repressing it, would try to convince themselves that his chain of thought is logical.
9
Dan, glad to see you have a new obsession to gnaw on- it is helpful to move on to new things from time to time, and I'm sure the Youth Pastors of the world appreciate the break.
11
I think Jesus wanted everyone to swear off their relationship with anyone other than God. Seems I read something like "leave your wives and families and follow me" in the Bible somewhere.
12
My understanding is that most people have an attraction to members of the opposite sex, and are not at all attracted to members of the same sex. We have a name for such people. We call them "heterosexuals". It appears that Mr. Klinghoffer is not one of them.
13
To be fair, guys like this expect straight people to constantly repress their sexual urges as well. One problem they seem to have with gay sex is that since there is no chance it will produce babies it means people will have a lot more of it, and they don't like the idea of people having sex for pleasure. In their minds, sex should always come with Serious Consequences.
14
Well if the bible was good enough to keep the black folk down for centuries then it's good enough to keep the fags down too!!
15
Honestly, someone needs to explain to this guy that 100% straight people are not constantly distracted by sexual feelings for same-sex individuals. Someone needs to conduct the following poll:
1. I am sexually attracted to members of my own gender...
a. always
b. often
c. sometimes
d. rarely
e. never
2. I consider myself
a. totally heterosexual
b. mostly heterosexual
c. bisexual
d. mostly homosexual
e. totally homosexual
3. I believe homosexuality is wrong:
a. true
b. false
If people answered honestly, I guarantee that any serious disconnect between the answers in questions 1 and 2 would be correlated with an answer of a in question 3. These people are clueless.
1. I am sexually attracted to members of my own gender...
a. always
b. often
c. sometimes
d. rarely
e. never
2. I consider myself
a. totally heterosexual
b. mostly heterosexual
c. bisexual
d. mostly homosexual
e. totally homosexual
3. I believe homosexuality is wrong:
a. true
b. false
If people answered honestly, I guarantee that any serious disconnect between the answers in questions 1 and 2 would be correlated with an answer of a in question 3. These people are clueless.
18
11, Perhaps you are thinking of this verse?
Luke 14:26
26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:26
26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
19
Here is an interesting paragraph about David Klinghoffer from a NY Times review of "THE LORD WILL GATHER ME IN My Journey to Jewish Orthodoxy" that might put some of his sexual hangups in perspective.
From an early age, Klinghoffer displayed a religious sensibility. The adopted child of a well-to-do Los Angeles dentist and his wife, he took Judaism a good deal more seriously than was customary in the Reform Jewish milieu in which he was raised. As an adolescent, he experimented with tefillin... He began to be troubled that his circumcision was not ritually correct, and sought to remedy the situation by immersing himself in a bathtub and, in line with Orthodox teaching, drawing a drop of blood from the tip of his penis with a straight razor. There are two more re-circumcisions -- first by a Conservative, then by an Orthodox, mohel -- before he is satisfied that he truly is a Jew.
From an early age, Klinghoffer displayed a religious sensibility. The adopted child of a well-to-do Los Angeles dentist and his wife, he took Judaism a good deal more seriously than was customary in the Reform Jewish milieu in which he was raised. As an adolescent, he experimented with tefillin... He began to be troubled that his circumcision was not ritually correct, and sought to remedy the situation by immersing himself in a bathtub and, in line with Orthodox teaching, drawing a drop of blood from the tip of his penis with a straight razor. There are two more re-circumcisions -- first by a Conservative, then by an Orthodox, mohel -- before he is satisfied that he truly is a Jew.
20
What a difference from Mr Klinghoffer's posts. When stating the truths about human sexuality he does it in a respectful, non-condemning manner even giving the other side the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their true intentions for wanting to follow other alternative paths. Totally opposite from the obscenities and explicit descriptions of harmful behaviors found here, that as Mr Klinghoffer has rightfully pointed are in no way uplifting to the human experience. Makes it easier to see what flows from the hearts of those debating this issue. Makes it easier to see which is the true path of love, family and of a future in harmony with nature, with our Creator.
21
20, Loveschild, So what do you think about "Biblical truths" like this?
1 Timothy 6
1All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2Those who have believing masters are not to show less respect for them because they are brothers. Instead, they are to serve them even better, because those who benefit from their service are believers, and dear to them. These are the things you are to teach and urge on them.
23
Homosexuality is a test for straight people.
God has a plan for homosexual people--after all, He is the Creator--and Jesus taught us to be compassionate.
Obviously, straight bigots like Klinghoffer are flunking that test of compassion and kindness.
In his quest for a pure Christian faith, Klinghoffer has cast aside those who he refuses or rejects as unworthy of God's love. That's false: we are all God's children, and he's making a place for us all.
God has a plan for homosexual people--after all, He is the Creator--and Jesus taught us to be compassionate.
Obviously, straight bigots like Klinghoffer are flunking that test of compassion and kindness.
In his quest for a pure Christian faith, Klinghoffer has cast aside those who he refuses or rejects as unworthy of God's love. That's false: we are all God's children, and he's making a place for us all.
24
1 Cor. 7:21 "Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that."
To say that the bible "promotes" slavery is a misinterpretation...it acknowledges it, and it allowed for it within the culture where it was common. But you were never to perceive that you "owned" the slave. The Hebrew scriptures allowed for the year of jubilation...everyone would be set free at some point, so that nobody had to live an entire life of servitude. The price for a slave would be counted against that year, knowing that you would only have their service until that time. So there was no "ownership"...it was more like serfdom than true slavery. Still not ideal, but when is life ever ideal? They dealt with reality as it was, not with an ideal they had not yet attained.
ANYHOW, that wasn't the point I wanted to make (but I felt compelled to note it).
I come from that ultra-conservative religious background. I still have my faith, though I'm much more liberal now (I support gay marriage and full legal benefits, etc.). What I wanted to commend Dan on is the fact that he makes such compelling logical arguments.
Continue to put the ball in their court: "YOU live without love, intimacy, pleasure and bonding, and see how easy it is, then tell me to deny myself." And for someone else's standards, not your own. That's what they don't see--they are trying to enforce their rules on someone who hasn't signed up to play in their ball game.
To say that the bible "promotes" slavery is a misinterpretation...it acknowledges it, and it allowed for it within the culture where it was common. But you were never to perceive that you "owned" the slave. The Hebrew scriptures allowed for the year of jubilation...everyone would be set free at some point, so that nobody had to live an entire life of servitude. The price for a slave would be counted against that year, knowing that you would only have their service until that time. So there was no "ownership"...it was more like serfdom than true slavery. Still not ideal, but when is life ever ideal? They dealt with reality as it was, not with an ideal they had not yet attained.
ANYHOW, that wasn't the point I wanted to make (but I felt compelled to note it).
I come from that ultra-conservative religious background. I still have my faith, though I'm much more liberal now (I support gay marriage and full legal benefits, etc.). What I wanted to commend Dan on is the fact that he makes such compelling logical arguments.
Continue to put the ball in their court: "YOU live without love, intimacy, pleasure and bonding, and see how easy it is, then tell me to deny myself." And for someone else's standards, not your own. That's what they don't see--they are trying to enforce their rules on someone who hasn't signed up to play in their ball game.
25
@21 any rational, modern christian doesn't prescribe to absolute bibilical truths, instead preferring theistic evolution, a disregard of literal interpretation of the old testament (and some of the new) in the guise that much of it is creation stories, laws, and absurd authoritarian ethical standards that developed before schools of modern thought.
The idea of a prime mover, of the catalyst for creation, is still rationally acceptable. The old biblical stories, moral extremes, and socially and sexually regressive thought is not. Christianity is more obsessed with a book than with any sort of actual philisophical or spiritual self-improvement.
The idea of a prime mover, of the catalyst for creation, is still rationally acceptable. The old biblical stories, moral extremes, and socially and sexually regressive thought is not. Christianity is more obsessed with a book than with any sort of actual philisophical or spiritual self-improvement.
28
I wish Mr. Klinghoffer actually answered the questions made to him. I'm not actually sure how many of the questioners are Sloggers, but the one's I recognize have been very kind and respectful.
Dan,
I asked a variation of your question yesterday and he hasn't answered. Good luck on hearing back from him.
Dan,
I asked a variation of your question yesterday and he hasn't answered. Good luck on hearing back from him.
29
@27 oh I know, I just wanted to add it after the fact I guess. I should have noted that! Loveschild couldn't be mistaken for a rational, modern christian in a dark room full of quakers.
30
@20- But he is not stating truths about human sexuality - far from it. What does he know about human sexuality beyond his own? I don't find anything respectful about his opinions.
31
@ 23 - Mr. Klinghoffer is actually an Orthodox Jew. I know he reads like an evangelical Christian - he pals around with them a lot - but he's not a Jesus follower at all.
@ 28 - Yes, Mr. Klinghoffer seems to reply to questions only when he's certain he can belittle and mock them. Serious questions, he ignores. Except to call them obscene and disrespectful.
The heart of all Jewish thought is argumentation. The Talmud sets up this crazy and wonderful precedent that two people can have diametrically opposed views, and BOTH be speaking "the words of the living G-d." The debate is itself sanctified. For Klinghoffer to be so condescending, disrespectful, and dismissive towards dissenting points of view makes him somewhat of an oddity as a Jewish scholar.
@ 28 - Yes, Mr. Klinghoffer seems to reply to questions only when he's certain he can belittle and mock them. Serious questions, he ignores. Except to call them obscene and disrespectful.
The heart of all Jewish thought is argumentation. The Talmud sets up this crazy and wonderful precedent that two people can have diametrically opposed views, and BOTH be speaking "the words of the living G-d." The debate is itself sanctified. For Klinghoffer to be so condescending, disrespectful, and dismissive towards dissenting points of view makes him somewhat of an oddity as a Jewish scholar.
32
Every time Mr. Klinghofer thinks about the temptations of homosexuality he has a tug which allows him to transcend his desires.
Why is this asshat so concerned about a bunch of commenters on the blog of a local ragpaper? Does he actually read the drivel people comment on his own blog?
Why is this asshat so concerned about a bunch of commenters on the blog of a local ragpaper? Does he actually read the drivel people comment on his own blog?
33
I think that is the whole point about Klinghoffer: he is willing to impose his beliefs on society. No debate - no evidence for his assertions - just follow them because he says so.... And his beliefs seem somewhat contradictory when one considers them: no women is satisfied unless a cock is involved - so they are lusting after cock - but hey, they manage to be more monogamous than men - straight men are lusting after cock - but homosexuals are required to abstain from sex. And from this mess we get "the true path of love, family and of a future in harmony with nature?"
Uh huh..... what a self deceptive fool.
Uh huh..... what a self deceptive fool.
35
Good god... if we gays were this powerful, you would think I could get the kitchen drawer to unstick, simply by force of will... and perversion power...
37
Okay, and I just love it when straight people call homosexuality a "test" or better yet a "temptation". It's comforting to know that everyone of us is homosexual deep down inside, and the only thing that separates straight people from gays is having a strong will.
38
What about this "Biblical truth"?
Luke 12
47 "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
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