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News & ArtsWednesday, June 24, 2009
Homo GLAAD Slaps Down Faggot
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 5:18 PM
The "F" word is not the "N" word, GLAAD.
7
i disagree and think they are comparable. both are OK in in-group ways, and profoundly not-OK otherwise. i suspect that had someone Black started harassing them screaming that they were "niggers", that person would have gotten a punch in the eye, too. i'm not a fan of violence, but every now and then it is just. a black eye is fairly equal to the harassment.
8
Tell that to a kid who's getting beating up while someone's calling him a faggot, Dan.
The reality is that when people use the word faggot to refer to someone negatively, it keeps it in the public square. It reinforces the idea that being gay is something negative.
The reality is that when people use the word faggot to refer to someone negatively, it keeps it in the public square. It reinforces the idea that being gay is something negative.
9
@Carollani, I think you meant that you use it "facetiously".
Unless you mean that you use it as part of a performance meant to expose the hypocrisy and depravity of the world around you, in which case I take back my minor correction.
Unless you mean that you use it as part of a performance meant to expose the hypocrisy and depravity of the world around you, in which case I take back my minor correction.
10
Faggot and nigger are both derogatory words, but the former's history is much lighter weight than the latter's. They aren't equals.
12
"I also want to train you in an old martial art called “Never Call A Black Dude a Faggot Jitsu.”
That's a tweet from Perez to John Mayer. So it's only wrong calling a black person that word?
That's a tweet from Perez to John Mayer. So it's only wrong calling a black person that word?
14
The fact that homosexuals can used that word to describe each other, but other people can't is an example of the PC tyranny that is destroying this country. How gay do you have to be say "faggot?"
I think I'll start using that word from now on, and as much as possible, just to tweak the self hating PC leftists.
I think I'll start using that word from now on, and as much as possible, just to tweak the self hating PC leftists.
15
Monkey, the word will maintain the power as long as there is history. Which I hope we continue to teach the kids.
I used to use the F word more freely as if I had the right. As a kid (and young adult, and teen, and college student), the F word always stunned me and I hated hearing it.
Finally in tech school, when I came "all the way" out, I started using it in an attempt to reclaim the word.
Problem was, when I said it in mixed company, I'd then have to backtrack and explain that it was ok, I was gay, and sorry if I offended you.
If I have to explain to someone why they shouldn't get offended, I shouldn't be saying it.
I stopped.
I used to use the F word more freely as if I had the right. As a kid (and young adult, and teen, and college student), the F word always stunned me and I hated hearing it.
Finally in tech school, when I came "all the way" out, I started using it in an attempt to reclaim the word.
Problem was, when I said it in mixed company, I'd then have to backtrack and explain that it was ok, I was gay, and sorry if I offended you.
If I have to explain to someone why they shouldn't get offended, I shouldn't be saying it.
I stopped.
16
@10 that isn't accurate. BOTH have been derogatory, and to some degree murderous, since the 16th century or so. we simply began critiquing one before the other. the timeline of our critique doesn't change their definitions or the nature of their use.
both terms have operated, and currently operate, in remarkably and oddly similar historical terms.
both terms have operated, and currently operate, in remarkably and oddly similar historical terms.
17
@10 (& Mr Savage) - 'F****t' has only been "lighter" (a rather poor choice of words considering the two we are comparing, eh?) in whatever history you happen to be aware of. Consider how esoteric and below the radar queer life was before Stonewall, and before this century began, really. Prior to rather recent times, getting called 'f****t' didn't exactly bring out cries of protest and sympathy from the crowd. Imagine the potential of getting called that word at any time as you went about your life, the threat of violence hiding behind it. The 'F- word' can be same as the 'N-word'; they're the same "other" with equal powers in the mind of a bigot.
18
16, are you aware of the fact that you're essentially saying that blacks and gays have always been treated the same way? No wonder there is so much homophobia in the black community, the gay community brings it on with these silly comparisons.
19
#12. You probably meant to say it this way, but John Mayer actually said that to Perez. All of his responses to Perez that night are hysterical.
http://twitter.com/johncmayer
http://twitter.com/johncmayer
20
@18 i'm not "essentially" saying anything. i'm speaking very explicitly to the history of two WORDS, not the histories of two very different peoples, who vary as much from themselves as they do from each other.
are you aware that you are essentially saying you can't read very well?
are you aware that you are essentially saying you can't read very well?
23
BombasticMO, same here actually. I got called "fag" and "faggot" all through my childhood even though I thought I was hetro. I came out completely in 1998 (age: 31) and almost instantly that word, regardless of whether it was used as a slur or as a term of endearment, hasn't bothered me.
Seems to me the more I get offended the more it says I have something to be ashamed of and I don't. It also says I care about what some asshole thinks of me and I don't.
Seems to me the more I get offended the more it says I have something to be ashamed of and I don't. It also says I care about what some asshole thinks of me and I don't.
24
@22 translated: i tried to sound smart but failed, so pbbbt, you stink, pig fell in the mud, wahh, fags, wahhhhhhhh
26
I rarely disagree Dan, but I disagree with you on this one. I, too, think of the countless young boys verbally attacked with that word, physically attacked while hearing that word--many driven to suicide. I think Perez was WRONG, but he was right when he said, "words hurt."
29
yeah, this post has all the makings of a lame retarded bitchfest of cunt-y proportions, but opening up the homophobe racist can of worms in the comments:
priceless.
priceless.
31
@29, for the most part, the conversation has been quite normal. Sure many people disagree with Dan, but only CHZA was dickish, which of course set me off, but we both mostly stayed on topic. Where is there racism or sincere homophobia in any of these comments?
32
I don't care for either word, to me they are true dirty words, because they can be used in a derogatory manner.
33
@31: you are right, but there is always the overnight trolls, I think I was just trying to lament the other offensive terms easily bandied about.... people usually have little to say about them.
35
everyone who's saying one slur is worse than another slur, fuck you. nigger and faggot are just fucking words whose meanings were bastardized by misuse. stop being apologists for every little fucking thing that has ever happened and say it all for what it is. people are so goddamned worried about pc that it's disgusting. faggot and nigger are WORDS. they're only negatively charged by our use of them. people using them are immature fucksticks, and people who take immature fucksticks seriously are dumbasses. as for perez hilton...glaad, shut the fuck up. no person with any real iq gives anything resembling a fuck what that gossip queen has to say about a fucking thing. did he deserve to be beaten up? no, no one does. did he learn anything from it? not a fucking thing. he needs to learn to shut the fuck up and stop making a living on the misfortune of others. but he didn't, and now he's using this to continue his stupid fucking fameseeking. and we're all here, going right along with it. so stop. glaad, focus on something that's fucking relevant; perez, grow the fuck up and shut the fuck up.
37
For years and years, Dan "took back the word" in his sex advice column.
Just for old time's sake,
Hey, Faggot!!@!
Just for old time's sake,
Hey, Faggot!!@!
39
@35 why does other people talking about this make you hysterical? why be afraid of a conversation about words, if they are just words? if those two words have no meaning, your own have even less, so why not take your own advice?
40
@34 -- Same goes for me.
And, while I haven't followed this Perez Hilton/Will.i.am. thing in depth, I think they're both pretty clearly in the wrong. Perez was evidently trying to provoke a reaction and was evidently unprepared for such success. And what sort of adult gets violent after being called gay? That's the issue here more than the word "faggot". If Perez had said, "You're a homosexual," the reaction would've likely been the same. Wil!#i%m didn't care about the word; he cared that his sexuality was called into question.
When you're baiting someone, be prepared for what happens if they bite.
And, while I haven't followed this Perez Hilton/Will.i.am. thing in depth, I think they're both pretty clearly in the wrong. Perez was evidently trying to provoke a reaction and was evidently unprepared for such success. And what sort of adult gets violent after being called gay? That's the issue here more than the word "faggot". If Perez had said, "You're a homosexual," the reaction would've likely been the same. Wil!#i%m didn't care about the word; he cared that his sexuality was called into question.
When you're baiting someone, be prepared for what happens if they bite.
41
A slur is a slur is a slur. You can qualify it however you want, it's intent is derogatory. The "what word is worse?" discussion is a blather-fest not worth visiting.
44
Well, faggot, I take offense at your use of "offence"! Spell it with an "s", dammit! This here's americuh!
45
seconding 41
Slurs aren't really the kind of thing that you need to quantify. That's why there's not a unit to measure "hatefulness" of a word. The general impression of it is accurate enough.
If there were a unit, though, what would it be? "Gallaghertz?" "NOM's"? "Degrees Klan"?
Slurs aren't really the kind of thing that you need to quantify. That's why there's not a unit to measure "hatefulness" of a word. The general impression of it is accurate enough.
If there were a unit, though, what would it be? "Gallaghertz?" "NOM's"? "Degrees Klan"?
47
@10 (and others) Though I agree that the two words have obviously different histories. The term faggot referred to the bundle of sticks used to burn people at the stake...so I'm not sure what you meant by "lighter." Having said that I don't think any word should be banned completely...we just need to know the meanings and contexts of our words.
48
Words ARE powerful. Anyone who is on here ARGUING or trying to MAKE A CASE that "words are just words" or "words have no power" is ridiculous. If that is so, than why do message boards exist? Why would we post anything, ever?
The F word is the N word, as the intent is the same. As 41 says, trying to qualify one over the other is pointless.
Words can be hurtful and can reinforce negativity among us. Why not take this time on earth to choose empowering words that reinforce the positive? It's easy, and much more rewarding.
The F word is the N word, as the intent is the same. As 41 says, trying to qualify one over the other is pointless.
Words can be hurtful and can reinforce negativity among us. Why not take this time on earth to choose empowering words that reinforce the positive? It's easy, and much more rewarding.
50
Words have power over you only if you let them. Even if you could somehow take away the words that offend you, you couldn't take away the feelings behind them. People would just find new words. You'll never be able control what others say, but you can control how you react. If you don't let words bother you, then you take away that power that others have over you.
51
God, how I hate these constant comparisons. Fucking oppression olympics keep oppressed groups infighting about who gets more sympathy points rather than addressing the real, systematic problems.
Both words are entirely context-dependent.
Both words are entirely context-dependent.
52
Rob @ # 50: Communication does not exist only on an interpersonal level: communication creates culture. Therefore, language habitually and constantly used in a derogatory fashion can create and support a non egalitarian culture (to put it mildly.) For example, calling an institution the "Workman's Compensation Board" eliminates the idea and the possibility of women doing paid work in most people's minds. Calling that same institution the "Workers' Compensation Board" gives space to that idea and helps create the reality that women are capable of carrying out paid work. So I think changing language can change a culture. However, on a personal level, I do what you suggested. Why should I give the control of my mind to people who hate?
53
This difference is in delivery, as with all language and communication. I often refer to Dan as "Seattle's #1 Faggot", as a sort of praise. If I were to get in Dan's face and say, "shut up, you fucking faggot", that would/could/should be the start of a fight. (At least it would be, if Dan wasn't such a fag.)
Richard Pryor referring to abstract "niggers" is not nearly the same as me getting in Dr. Dre's face and saying, "you suck, nigger". I would expect to get my ass kicked, badly.
Richard Pryor referring to abstract "niggers" is not nearly the same as me getting in Dr. Dre's face and saying, "you suck, nigger". I would expect to get my ass kicked, badly.
54
F vs. N. Yes there is a difference. If you smoke the former it is bad for your health. If you smoke the latter it is an act of violence.
55
Most of you probably aren't old enough to remember when Dan Savage's column was called "Hey, Faggot!" I am, and have been a fan since then.
56
Some people in here need to read their Foucault.
@55: You and me both. I've sent Dan a few letters over the years (never got in the column), and I always start them with "Hey, Faggot!" out of respect for the longevity of his column and as a way of showing that I'm a fan from way back.
@55: You and me both. I've sent Dan a few letters over the years (never got in the column), and I always start them with "Hey, Faggot!" out of respect for the longevity of his column and as a way of showing that I'm a fan from way back.
57
Words get all of their power from intent and context, always. It's dumb to demonize a word. What matters is changing minds, and changing the culture. I don't think that self-censoring language is an important part of that. Ideas are what matter. Intent. Context. Always.
58
Yeah Barbara, I remember too.
And am somewhat confused by all the newbies who don't understand WHY dan insisted everyone write to him as "Hey, Faggot"...
The work he was attempting clearly isn't done.
But this is true, with any word - cool slang, hateful slur, and simple profanity: the more you use it, the more you dull it / de-claw it. 'Bitch' used to be the 'Faggot' of Feminism, but now it's part of prime time TV and dialogues in literature. The meaning of words can and should change - webster depends on it.
And am somewhat confused by all the newbies who don't understand WHY dan insisted everyone write to him as "Hey, Faggot"...
The work he was attempting clearly isn't done.
But this is true, with any word - cool slang, hateful slur, and simple profanity: the more you use it, the more you dull it / de-claw it. 'Bitch' used to be the 'Faggot' of Feminism, but now it's part of prime time TV and dialogues in literature. The meaning of words can and should change - webster depends on it.
59
The way that perez used it was just as bad. It was dispicable and thoroughly homophobic. GLAAD was right to tell him off. He's a dick, and it's good for us to make it clear that he in no way represents us.
60
My god, you're a stupid queer sometimes, Dan. The "F" word and the "N" word are exactly comparable, especially these days. It completely depends on the INTENT of the speaker/writer.
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